00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.04.29 00:00:35 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 00:27:12 Someone kindly provided a solution to a problem I have with my assembler, a clever macro workaround 00:27:38 https://twitter.com/ped7g/status/1255290352514281472 00:36:11 --- join: dys joined #forth 01:12:33 --- join: reepca` joined #forth 01:12:57 --- quit: reepca (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 02:10:15 --- quit: corn (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 02:19:30 morning Forth 02:21:29 Good morning 02:25:57 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 02:35:51 c[] godd afternoon Forthians 02:36:04 *good 02:41:20 --- join: xek joined #forth 02:46:00 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 02:51:31 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 03:07:00 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 03:11:07 --- join: TCZ joined #forth 03:18:55 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: mtsd) 03:22:28 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 03:39:26 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 04:06:13 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 04:34:38 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: mtsd) 04:48:14 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 04:50:54 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 05:32:33 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 05:41:06 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: mtsd) 06:31:10 --- nick: Keshl_ -> Keshl 06:41:24 --- quit: TCZ (Quit: Leaving) 06:45:32 --- quit: iyzsong (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 06:56:14 --- quit: jsoft (Remote host closed the connection) 06:56:56 --- join: corn joined #forth 07:05:21 --- quit: corn (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 07:23:50 --- join: TCZ joined #forth 07:32:37 --- quit: cantstanya (Remote host closed the connection) 07:34:58 --- join: cantstanya joined #forth 07:47:49 --- join: mark4 joined #forth 07:48:01 cd #microchip 07:48:14 blargh wrong window and why did i put # lol 07:48:23 crossing bash and irc to get things done faster :) 07:48:48 almost have my PCI32 assembler finished, just have to do the encodings for the branching opcodes 07:49:01 which will need the local label facility im currently working on 08:09:24 mark4, nice. what are you doing with pic32? 08:11:04 its a GPS tracking system that is used by a bunch of car auction sites, the put one of the trackers in each car and track it from the time its shipped in to the time it is shipped out 08:57:36 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 09:03:01 --- join: kmstout joined #forth 09:15:38 its being MrMobius do you work with pic32s? 09:18:33 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 09:19:45 mark4, not really. I lost interest when I found out the free version of the compiler is locked down and you dont get the MIPS16 stuff 09:20:08 --- quit: mark4 (Remote host closed the connection) 09:47:01 --- join: mark4 joined #forth 09:48:05 MrMobius, actually its 100% open source and you can rebuild it with the optimizer enabled :) 09:48:15 thats kind of a big secret or something 09:54:04 --- quit: jn___ (Quit: jn___) 09:54:41 --- join: jn__ joined #forth 10:01:21 --- quit: TCZ (Quit: Leaving) 10:12:16 mark4, right someone was telling me they had a back and forth with microchip that was not very pleasant before they relented and sent the source 10:12:36 or the micromite or minimite or whatever its called has them prebuilt 10:14:11 but definitely not impressed by them doing that. I prefer other stuff even if their unoptimized free compiled is faster 10:14:29 I only got interested again when I had a project that would be done in assembly 10:14:47 got some pic32mm and pic32mx parts in dip but havent hooked anything up yet 10:16:45 my assembler is actually specific to the mx :) 10:16:48 its not generic 10:16:58 the mx is based on mips32 R2 10:17:51 the mx in dip is easily the most impressive thing you can get in a throughhole package 10:18:02 I just wish the XIP stuff worked 10:18:09 heh 10:18:42 word of advice, download harmony, put it on a thumb drive, take it into your back yard and BURN IT ! 10:18:42 what made you want to make your own assembler? 10:18:49 plan to write a forth :) 10:18:49 lol 10:18:57 cannot decide if i want DTC or STC 10:19:16 my x86 forth is DCT but my arm thumb 2 is SCT 10:19:21 DTC STC 10:19:24 man i cant type 10:19:28 hehe 10:19:54 you do have an incredible amount of memory so maybe STC is the way to go 10:20:15 at least by throughhole standards. youre probably using the smd stuff 10:20:26 the ones i have are 32k ram and 512k flash 10:20:50 we also have a external NVM device with 32 buffers of 64k each lol 10:21:24 how are you accessing that? 10:21:25 i wrote the drivers to read/write that and because were porting from an arm device that had a built in eeprom i wrote a compatability layer on to of my NVM code to emulate the old eeprom 10:21:30 i2c 10:21:33 ah 10:21:43 thats pretty slick 10:22:12 i wrote the i2c driver for that plus the emulation layer 10:22:27 and the guy doing the bootloader code thought that meant i was writing the internal flash writing code lol 10:22:30 so i did that doo :/ 10:22:43 i just wish i could get flash writs working on my frdm-k64f board 10:23:14 soon as i try doing a flash write there the processor goes out to lunch or something 10:23:27 been about 8 months since i touched it, i was that frustrated with it 10:23:44 even on the NXP forums everyone that looked at it was stumped as to why it was not working 10:24:35 you ever work with NXPs FRDM boards? 10:25:13 if i can get that flash write working the plan is to port my T4 arm compiler to it and then write drivers for every single peripheral on there 10:25:17 including the CAN stuff 10:25:20 i know nothing of can 10:32:10 Ive never worked with them 10:32:45 do you have to jump to ram while youre writing to flash? 10:33:22 yes 10:33:25 and im doing that 10:33:53 actually EVERYTHING is in flash to set up the write, then i call a small ram routine that sets the "DO THIS!!!" bit and then waits for the operation to clear 10:34:04 soon as i hit the do this bit... BOOOM out to lunch 10:34:22 well, i can single step it just fine if i remember correctly 10:34:25 but nothing is written 10:35:44 why is there never a search bar on github.com now 10:35:49 fucking m$ screwing things up again 10:46:46 thats rough when you get stuck like that 10:47:05 community is one of the top things to consider when you are looking at hardware IMO 10:48:01 there is usually also some sort of safety mechanism to prevent you from writing to flash that has to be switched off 10:56:03 my flash write code is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT according to the documentation and every single pair of eyes that has gone over it 10:56:07 it just doesnt work 10:56:33 i am absolultey NOT using ONE SINGLE LINE of ANY nxp library code 10:56:39 nor will I ever do that 10:56:54 their code is generic, one HUGE FUCKING SIZE fits all 10:57:03 you cant pay me to use NXP code 10:57:07 lol 11:11:40 heh 11:11:58 maybe you could use it to write to flash then chop it down until you had the minimal working example 11:13:54 also I dont understand why anyone takes the library approach in embedded. I thought C compilers were smart enough to only include what you need if the library isnt precompiled 11:15:07 nope their code is horrendously fucking obfuscated doing all kinds of hardware probing to find out what system its running on, something that should be 5 lines of code turns into 4k of bullshit 11:15:10 fuck that lol 11:15:30 the problem is they are offloading compile time shit to run time 11:15:42 because of a) lazyness AND b) incompetence 11:16:25 they probably also care about getting it up and running quickly for users 11:16:48 detecting that at runtime is just one less thing newbies can mess up since you cant trust them to supply the appropriate flag at compile time 11:17:31 unfortunately the lowest common denominator in this case is NXP develoeprs themselves 11:18:35 and nxp gives absolutely NO support what so ever 11:18:43 they offload 100% of their support to the community 11:18:52 and... nobody in the community can tell me why my code fails 11:19:49 i do like the nxp chips, i just HATE that the only way you can use them is with the "#include 11:19:57 there it does everything for you yay! 11:20:12 I guess if you installed the library long enough to write to write to flash and single stepped the write routine to gain its secrets, you might be a hero in the community 11:20:31 this does seem like a common complaint though. I assume every company just lets interns write the code 11:20:40 no because the simple 5 step operation takes over an hour to single step through it does so much bullshit 11:21:19 can you set a break point after the initialization and only single step the flash writing? 11:21:37 and when they are reading this register, masking it, shifting it, reading that register, masking it, shifting it, xoring it, reading another, multiplying it by some seemlingly random number and adding it to the result then using that as a parameter to a function that does somethin equally undecernable... . . ad infinitum 11:22:05 no fucking way to see what they are doing, why or how 11:22:21 thats why i basically have not touched this in about 8 months 11:22:35 THAT fucking frustrated over the complete and utter lack of support 11:22:41 yea your code looks good. 11:22:44 but it doesnt work 11:22:48 cant help you mate. im stumped 11:23:01 community is good. NXP are dickheads 11:42:23 --- part: kmstout left #forth 11:51:29 sounds almost as bad as forth :P 11:55:14 --- quit: reepca` (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11:55:37 --- join: reepca` joined #forth 12:28:44 forth is trivial 12:28:59 its designed not thrown together by coder monkeys 12:29:01 :) 12:29:29 --- join: [1]MrMobius joined #forth 12:29:29 --- quit: MrMobius (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 12:29:45 --- nick: [1]MrMobius -> MrMobius 12:30:14 --- join: corn joined #forth 12:38:45 --- quit: corn (Quit: Lost terminal) 13:46:13 wow, awesome insight into NXP 13:46:42 Im glad I only have a couple of small boards with NXP now 13:51:34 --- join: corn joined #forth 13:51:42 greetings, forth folks 14:02:35 --- quit: xek (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:07:52 --- quit: Vedran (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.github.io) 14:11:39 --- join: Vedran joined #forth 14:41:03 corn: greetings 14:41:07 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 14:41:25 I'm usually around at this time and very few others are unfortunately 14:48:34 im not all here 14:48:39 :) 14:48:47 sad, I was hoping for a party 14:49:09 if it takes 2 to tango, 3 must be a party 14:49:54 well if anyone's tangoing, it has to be you two, I'm an incompetent dancer 15:03:55 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 15:08:37 * crc always lurks quietly watching the chat 15:09:28 crc is terrible 15:09:35 just like his retroforth 15:12:25 --- join: TCZ joined #forth 15:12:57 its not his, he adopted it :) 15:13:38 mark: the current retro (since v10) is all mine 15:14:45 I moved on from the tcn based code over a decade ago 15:16:56 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 15:19:03 see it's all his 15:19:28 even the iOS version 15:21:38 i know :) 15:21:59 have you heared from TCN? 15:22:20 i did a google for him a few times over the years, he seems to have abandoned computers entirely 15:22:47 not in a few years, since he disconnected everything 15:23:35 --- quit: cantstanya (Remote host closed the connection) 15:23:43 wonder why he did that 15:25:55 --- join: cantstanya joined #forth 15:30:06 Who is TCN 15:31:01 tom novelli, creator of retroforth's original 4 codebases, among other things 15:32:14 also helped me greatly when i started coding isforth which i later renamed to x4 15:32:23 because i also have a thumb version called t4 15:32:35 want x64 and a64 too 15:32:49 oh i have a totally unreleased a4 too which is 32 bit arm with no thumb2 code 15:36:17 --- quit: jedb (Remote host closed the connection) 15:36:32 --- join: jedb joined #forth 15:43:49 --- quit: TCZ (Quit: Leaving) 15:56:12 so i ordered a new m-tech laptop a few weeks ago but they were out of stock, the one i ordered was with the 9th gen i7 but the new stock has the 10th gen so.. free upgrade yay 15:56:34 i ordered it with one 500g 2.5 inch sata ssd and one 2t nvme ssd 15:57:00 well. i taked to the tech and he said get two 1T ssds because i can fit all 3 in there and it would not cost more so i said go ahead 15:57:09 the machines are built to order 15:57:10 sounds good :) 15:57:36 problem is... they didnt have two 1t nvme's so they upgraded me to two 2t nvme's lol 15:58:01 Im still using a Thinkpad X60s as I hate 'chicklet' keypads and it's hard to get a laptop thats fully Linux supported 15:58:51 when my Thinkpad dies it will be my last lappie 15:59:00 i bought a asus laptop about a year ago and a few months ago i started noticing things going wrong such as usb ports not behaving right. i would have to unplug my mouse dongle and plug it back in 15:59:13 then i had a complete system failure and lost everytthing 15:59:37 spent the next 2 weeks attempting to do reinstalls on it. finallt got linux mint installed and ran with that for 2 weeks 15:59:49 but ubuntu makes my teeth itch in any incantation 15:59:52 yeah, laptops stopped being reliable many years ago in my observation 15:59:59 so tried to reinstall gentoo.. got that fully working 16:00:04 I've had an HP Envy for ~6 years and it's worked for anything I throw at it 16:00:13 laptop has not been giving me issues but i dont trust it fully any more 16:00:19 same here, I run linux-MX on the thinkpad now and it's flawless 16:00:35 I bought a Pinebook Pro but that hasn't come yet so we'll see how that goes 16:00:39 well asus has the lowest failure raite of any laptop unless they put them in my hands lol 16:00:43 in fact MX even seems to have fixed my battery charge issues 16:00:55 i didnt ever expect that to happen 16:01:00 what's linux-MX? 16:01:17 im very hard on laptops 16:01:34 m-tech laptops last me longer than any others 16:01:46 and every single order is custom built to order 16:01:47 the laptop has pretty much had a orange light on the battery pack status since I got it, but now it's green and seems to estimate charge properly 16:02:02 if i had gone overboard on all the options it would have cost me over 5k 16:02:05 i didnt lol 16:02:12 yeah, very expensive 16:02:29 those m-techs are expensive 16:02:37 my thinkpad was $6500 new, but I bought mine 10 years old for $100 on ebay 16:02:48 m-tech had had an order from the u.s. army for like 24576294652349256293456432 million tablets that they had to turn down 16:03:02 why? 16:03:11 no way they could have met that order 16:03:13 they have a magnesium skin, so pretty robust but the SD slots are now dodgy etc 16:03:28 they supply the military withy rugedized laptops and sell to the public too 16:03:29 what a bummer for them! 16:03:31 ah 16:03:37 well yes and no 16:03:45 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 16:03:50 it would have been $287562983645238456298364598234523695469827345 million dollars for them but... 16:04:04 28546729834659283754698237429845692837465987234765 billion problems trying to fill the order lol 16:04:07 extra bank fees were a worry ? ;-) 16:04:20 i totally didnt make up those numbers :) 16:04:32 they seem like reasonable numbers 16:04:33 i never thought you did! 16:05:02 m-tech laptops are not even rated in the top 10 and are orders of magnitude better than any laptop in that list 16:05:04 as a electronics tech I know what horrors lurk inside lappies, so I'm not a big fan 16:05:31 basically put a desktop in a crusher and out comes a laptyop 16:05:59 then you have the heat issues 16:06:17 but Im lucky and dont need a laptop anymore now I'm retired 16:06:36 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 16:06:37 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 16:06:39 my desktop is an asus rampage iv extreme with an lga 2011 extreme overclocked to 4.7 ghz 16:06:42 and 64 gigs of ram 16:06:45 and wont post 16:06:51 oh dear 16:07:03 boththis laptop and my desktop utterly failed within hours of each other 16:07:10 i managed to get this one back up and running 16:07:28 mine is a watercooled 6 core, 6 thread i7 with 64GB ram and 12TB of ZFS raid 16:07:30 but i think i need to rip the desktop to pieces and rebuild it from the groud up 16:07:38 this is also water cooled 16:07:52 i was using an H100 but after 7 years it died 16:08:01 so i changed to a different cooler i forget which it is now 16:08:03 sadly I have stuffed the mobo a bit when I was rewring the fans and shorted a motor drive line to chassis :( 16:09:12 all I have is a $90 Intel watercooler which went on when I built the pc in 2012, and it's still working, but I dont overclock, even tho I know I can get 5GHz on it with a beefier PSU 16:09:33 yea this is going on 8 years old now 16:09:37 if I tried that the tubes would blow off the intel WC in about 30 seconds 16:09:54 it's plenty fast ebuf for me 16:10:02 ast the make 3500 Mhz 16:10:17 at the default lame 3500 Mhz 16:10:20 i could never get this to 5.0, best i could get was 4.7 16:10:26 even stock 3.3 is fast enough for me 16:10:37 oops 3.3 here as well 16:10:43 it's a Sandy Bridge 16:10:59 I think I paid $550 for the cpu only back in 2012 16:11:07 but i used to piss off the google android devs (at google corp) who hung in #android-dev by doing 20 minute AOSP builds from make clobber lol 16:11:24 yea mine was like $900 when i bought it 16:11:33 it was current tech back then :) 16:11:43 when I hear people talk about their desktop setups it sounds so overboard 16:11:45 it had just come out, and when I build my pc's I always make sure I get the very latest tech so that 8 years later it's still fast enuf 16:11:58 corn thats THE point! lol 16:12:05 this is supposed to be forth we supposed to be minimal smh 16:12:13 i feel no need to upgrade now anyway, it's plent fast enuf 16:12:23 y'all just falling for the marketing 16:12:54 Mores Law has died, improvements in speed are very minimal now anyway 16:13:24 corn when i started this channel i had ONE RULE 16:13:32 things like your 2t nvme ssds will make the biggest difference I guess 16:13:37 no anal retentive rules about topics we can discuss in here 16:13:38 none 16:13:50 want to talk politics or religion thats 100% within the rules :) 16:13:54 yeah there are, theyre clear in the topic 16:14:00 of couse being a dick is bad :) 16:14:33 no one will harass off topic posters but the will get quickly put into the serious Forth guys ignore file, probably forever 16:14:36 moores law died a long time ago, it was guaranteed to do so, i dont even think HE thought it would last forever 16:15:11 no if you are a forth coder or interested in it im interested in anything you have to say even if i disagree with it 16:15:24 i sat in this channel for over a year before anyone ever noticed it 16:15:35 and for a year or so after than all i got was fly by's lol 16:15:43 it seem everyone here is easygoing but it's a very serious Forth channel, they dont want off topic stuff clogging their logs 16:15:49 mark4: the most I can say about tcn's current state is that he's still living in Massachusetts as of last November. 16:16:02 crc poor tcn :) 16:16:04 lol 16:16:26 people like CRC have probably a intelligent logger that strips non Forth stuff before it hits his log file ;-) 16:16:52 the only problem with this channel right now is the number of idle bots :/ 16:16:56 tp: no; I don't mind non-forth discussions 16:16:57 the power of RETRO! 16:17:08 crc, awesome :) 16:17:30 --- join: TCZ joined #forth 16:17:31 btw, my only other rule is i dont own this channel :) 16:17:34 and this discussion isnt *that* off topic, all PC forths need a PC to run on 16:17:42 mark4: how many bots are in the channel? there's clog, and sometimes a retro bot 16:17:58 crc, whitelogger ? 16:18:11 I have no issue with off topic 16:18:19 i dont know if all the idlers are bots but there are a lot of non active connections in here, i assume bot :) 16:18:21 off-topic is the spice of life 16:19:03 mark4, I assume remote IRC connections that the owners rarely get around to connecting to, or they just skin the log ? 16:19:11 skim 16:20:10 afterall, #forth can be very quiet for days 16:20:22 gotta liven the place up 16:21:23 I used to have a nick from hackaday on my ch (#merisp) and he never ever said anything 16:22:06 it's gone now, probably a bot I guess, hackaday looking for something interesting they can use for an article ? 16:22:19 well its not like some channels where you ask a question and have to sit and wait for 3 or more days for someone to answer :/ 16:22:35 not that hackaday actually have anything intresting, it's a website for 10 year olds thesedays 16:22:51 mark4, true 16:23:00 not only that ive never seen anything but "i did this!" there, nothing about "HOW I did this!" 16:24:04 mark4, I'm nearly 66, think how dissapointed I am at the state of hobby electronics ? 16:24:12 I don't touch hackaday with a 10ft pole 16:24:15 66 years old? 16:24:20 I've been dissapointed since about the 80's 16:24:24 im 11 behind you 16:24:28 yeah, nearly 66 years old 16:24:39 nice :) 16:24:59 the world needs more old people input in tech 16:25:13 Every time I come here, I re-remember how old the forth crew is 16:25:40 Some of us are a bit younger 16:25:43 forth is no londer than c 16:25:45 I've been tired of the kid tech tsunami for the last 20 years 16:25:50 but way better 16:26:12 i tried to learn python, my brain rejected it outright 16:26:12 rather, how much older the forth crew is than the wider programming crew 16:26:25 heheh, you have to be sneaky to get Forth into the hands of non techies and kids nowadays 16:26:51 mark4: but for me, python was the first think I learned, as as far as everyone told me at the time python was the king's language 16:27:04 heh 16:27:24 C.M. says forth is ***THE*** software engineering solution 16:27:26 i agree 16:27:28 in part 16:27:32 it's hard to get exposed to simplicity unless you absolutely fight to find it in my age group 16:27:48 oh I agree as well 16:27:57 the fact that you recognize that places you above most of your generation 16:28:14 for any given problem, the best solution to that problem is THE simplest soluton 16:28:23 or the simplest you can find 16:28:24 Ive managed to get 247 downloads of a pure Forth binary into the hands of windows arduino users this year 16:28:29 ***ALWAYS*** 16:28:49 tp i really wanted to finish mhy avr forth but burned out 16:28:52 it's a bootable binary with a simple numbered menu, impossible to screw up 16:29:06 and have not had the heart to pick it back up again 16:29:17 even thou i have a perfectly functional avr assembler written in forth 16:29:31 but then it's hard to find too, because when I first took interest in programming and was told to use python, part of the argument was that "python is simple," and I could not deny that at the time but I could sense that it was wrong 16:29:46 and they run it on 'BluePill' boards to find out if the MCU is original (non fake) and if it has the 'hidden' extra 64kB flash 16:30:06 wait. hidden extra 64k? 16:30:11 on AVRs? 16:30:16 hell no 16:30:22 STM32F103C8 16:30:30 aha 16:30:40 they cone with an advertised 64kB flash 16:30:55 ...but they have a hidden extra 64kB block 16:30:56 i was porting my T4 thumb2 forth to a FRDM-k64F but i cant get the flash write to work no matter what 16:31:11 and everyone who has looked at my code has told me "this should work" (tm) 16:31:24 I'm not a Forth implementor, Im a Forth user 16:31:36 but I do know that many flash controllers are a nightmare 16:31:42 especially NXP 16:32:01 and SAM 16:32:32 thats why you wont find many models of those chips supported by the Forth I use, Mecrisp-Stellaris 16:33:49 who maintains that forth? 16:37:24 "Matthias Koch" 16:38:15 but it seems the site mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io has tp all over it, so that's your site, right? 16:38:51 tp does all the good documentation for mecrisp-stellaris 16:39:17 crc, youre too kind considering your outstanding docs! 16:39:54 crc, I found a interesting MD TOC generator called "Rage Against the Web Frameworks" lol 16:40:06 ill be trying it out soon 16:40:17 https://sourceforge.net/projects/rawk-sh/ 16:40:29 it's the only one written in bash 16:40:58 all the rest are a myraid of programs I dont have and dont want installed 16:42:21 --- quit: corn (Remote host closed the connection) 16:42:23 tp: by the july release of retro I should have all of the html formats of my docs generated using only tools I've written 16:42:40 crc, thats awesome 16:43:39 --- join: corn joined #forth 16:43:44 crc, a very worthwhile endeavour, nothing beats ones own well written programs 16:44:39 I'm looking forward to this as it'll drop the lost remaining bit stopping me from having everything fully automated for releases 16:46:18 thats also my goal, but as a Forth user I'm very happy to use open apps to get to the same point 16:46:54 but I must have full automation, it's critical as I only have so much time to waste doing repetitive tasks 16:51:11 --- quit: WickedShell (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:52:29 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 16:53:02 I just want to be able to take a fresh system, setup retro & fossil, and be ready to go with all my tools. I'm close now, except for the all-in-one documentation with TOC, which I'm still using one external tool for 16:55:02 yes, sorting out the doc and tools can be fun 16:55:33 I do make great use of shell script and I dont mind it at all 16:56:19 Id like to switch to retro for all that, but thats another major change I'll be looking at 16:56:24 --- quit: dave0 (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 16:57:20 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 17:11:08 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 17:12:17 what sorts of repetitive tasks do you write away with shell scripts? I don't really find myself needing to automate much 17:12:47 maybe a script here or there but really not a lot 17:13:08 most of my shell scripts are mass-renaming of music/video files 17:13:36 or converting videos to mp4 17:14:25 yet shell can be used for so much more 17:14:38 In the past I've done the renaming or reformatting scripts, but that's what I mean when I say "here or there" 17:15:22 it's a full programming language afaik, Ive seen a FreeBSD jail and VM manager written in only shell and it looked great and was fast 17:16:21 sure debugging can be a bit painful, but I dont want python or lisp for my small apps 17:16:31 I don't like bourne shell either so I avoid using it anyway, but usually the tools I have anyway mean I don't need to automate 17:16:54 there's a forth written in bash :-) 17:17:18 bash is uncomfortable to me 17:18:11 plan9 + rc spoiled me 17:18:50 i know, I have it, and it's pretty good 17:19:15 and one written in Perl, and thats pretty good 17:19:27 corn: I automate things whenever possible for anything repetitive 17:19:42 but RETRO is the only PC Forth I've seen that Id be comfortable replacing SH with 17:20:36 I'm just curious what sort of repetitive tasks you run into that could be automated, because I don't really automate things and I can't think of anything I could/should be automating either 17:21:54 e.g., for ebooks, I have an automated system that downloads, strips any drm, extracts metadata into a catalog, and generates copies in several formats 17:22:48 I have automations which rebuild my tools, run regression tests, and report errors 17:24:10 I have automation that updates my main servers hourly, including rebuilding html exports of my examples, most of my documentation, and snapshots 17:27:26 at work, I have dozens of small tools that are triggered by cron and watching my email stream to generate reports and restructure incoming data to a more usable form for me to review (also handling sending acknowledgments when needed) 17:28:44 literally anything I find myself doing often (as in at least monthly) should be automated if possible 17:29:50 and as much as possible, I try to use my own tools to do so 17:30:09 and now it's clear why I don't automate anything, I don't have those things to deal with 17:33:14 I started down this road years ago. Automation means less typing and/or mouse, which reduces pain from rsi. It also increases productivity in the long run. 17:33:38 corn: an rc user, very nice 17:33:53 I need command completion though, got a way for that 17:34:11 (-_-)zzz c[] good morning Forthwrights 17:34:25 nmz: unfortunately I do not 17:35:07 rdrop-exit, good morning Zen Forth Guru! 17:35:21 mornin 17:35:26 good mortning Master Forth tech (tm) 17:35:37 hi corn/crab1! 17:36:59 how are we doing? 17:38:24 waking up, doing my morning coffee scan of the intertubes 17:39:23 hm, it's about time for me to head off to start the night shift, it's nearly 9:00 PM here 17:39:48 night shift? 17:40:20 I work from 10:00 PM to 6:30 AM 17:40:51 except lately we have been leaving as early as 1:00 AM because more corona means less work 17:40:51 cool 17:41:42 at least I'm still getting paid, I know others that aren't :) 17:42:05 right 17:47:25 Anyway, happy forthing, enjoy your inner tubes 17:47:30 --- quit: corn (Quit: Lost terminal) 17:48:02 corn, enjoy your shift and stay healthy 17:49:26 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 18:06:37 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 18:23:11 hey guys 18:23:29 hi tabemann 18:24:24 busy working on my disassembler 18:24:33 cool 18:24:53 I'm currently at ASR (going in alphabetic order) 18:25:21 part of me wonders what the hell have I gotten myself into 18:26:37 writing a compact disassembler is an art 18:28:27 I'm trying to reuse as many parts of the code as possible 18:30:17 yet another benefit of a tethered setup 18:31:36 i have an assembler and dissambler on my hosted embedded Forth 18:32:03 most do 18:32:24 not that I think a hosted Forth is superior to a tether because I dont 18:32:46 a tethered cortex-m0 would be awesome 18:33:10 cortex-m0 is exactly the kind of system that'd benefit from tethering 18:33:42 tabemann, a tether would allow me to have a TON of development aids 18:34:07 but the actual Forth and code for most things fits easily on a cortex-m0 which has 64kB of flash 18:34:21 I think all systems benefit from tethering, more options, less space 18:34:21 just not a giB of text development aids 18:34:57 rdrop-exit, definitely not *ALL* 18:35:40 there are cases where a on chip Forth is s must and a tether utterly useless 18:35:54 sure, all, since it's entirely up to you how much or how little you put on the target 18:36:21 no, thats C thinking 18:36:33 has nothing to do with C 18:36:45 sure it does 18:36:51 no it doesn't 18:37:12 does,does,does .. and no returns! 18:37:20 ;-) 18:38:03 ok, I need a Forth system to reverse engineer a circuit, will a tether do ? 18:39:29 this circuit is in the engine bay of a rare Russian military vehicle broken down in the Andes, 500 miles from anywhere 18:39:42 there is no local power 18:40:08 I cant tell you anything about it, you have to find out whet is is when you get there 18:40:33 you have to lug all the gear by backpack to get there 18:41:51 the obvious weakness of a tether is that when disconnected form the host, it is NOT interactive 18:41:54 you're thinking too narrowly, a thethered force doesn't force you to always use the tether 18:42:10 * a tethered forth doesn't 18:42:21 but if it has a on board forth, it's NOT a tether is it ?> 18:42:55 i mean, it IS tehtered or it is NOT tethered 18:42:57 ? 18:43:20 if it's NOT tethered, then it is not interactive 18:43:45 you can produce anything you want on the target, including a full custom onboard forth 18:43:46 you may as well say that a C program is interactive, thats my C connection above 18:44:14 you're thinking too narrowly 18:45:04 you can cut the umbilical whenever you want, or chose not to use it 18:45:15 I have the field experience to know the difference, but I'm willing to be educated at any cost :) 18:46:15 it seems to me that you believe that every Forth is 'tethered' whether interactive in the true Forth sense or not 18:46:25 --- join: boru` joined #forth 18:46:28 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 18:46:30 --- nick: boru` -> boru 18:46:51 if a tether can produce a fully interactive Forth on a chip, then that is not tethered, even if produced by one 18:47:35 your tether requires a PC and fair enough, it's perfect for bench development etc 18:47:36 You're missing the main point by focusing only on the word tether 18:48:26 --- quit: TCZ (Quit: Leaving) 18:48:40 it wouldnt be the first or last time I've utterly missed the point, so apologies if I'm being particularly dumb today 18:49:02 A tethered development setup doesn't force you to only produced targets that require a tether 18:49:14 i understand that clearly 18:49:55 but a interactive Forth produced by and independent of a tether is not 'a tethered Forth it is a self hosted Forth 18:50:27 at least that's how I see it 18:50:56 sure, but you're only looking at the target, not how the target was produced in the first place 18:51:49 I only care about the target as thats what Ill be using 18:52:15 a self hosted Forth can be used to do anything in the field 18:52:37 well we're talking on how that self-hosted Forth was produced in the first place 18:52:45 a tethered fort cannot as by definition, once the umbilical is severed, it's no longer interactive 18:53:03 argh 18:53:12 I have one here 18:53:21 forget the word tether for a minute 18:53:29 it's a working tethered Forth 18:53:34 argh 18:54:11 our argument centres on the word "tether" ? 18:54:31 without how can we argue this point ? 18:57:05 listen for a minute 18:57:29 are you ok with that? 18:57:41 of course 18:58:34 lets say you are choosing a Forth development environment for you projects 18:58:57 k 18:59:27 let's say you use a PC as your cross-development machine 19:00:02 being a Forther, your ideal development environment is a Forth of course 19:00:15 So you have a Forth on your PC 19:00:25 k 19:00:43 You can use that Forth to develop Forths for targets 19:01:20 and/or assembly programs for targets 19:01:29 k 19:02:07 You can for some targets choose to just generate an target image and get it onto the target by whatever means possible 19:02:44 You can also use that same PC Forth to interact with some of your targets via a tether 19:03:30 all possibilities are open to you, you have a Forth on your PC, you can produce Forths (or whatever) for targets 19:03:37 k 19:04:33 The key is that you use a Forth to produce whatever at least initially goes on the target 19:04:51 k 19:05:07 You have a tether should you want to use it on a particular project, you are not forced to use it 19:05:46 k 19:06:20 you can use this Forth on your PC to produce onboard Forths for your targets if that's what you want for that particular target 19:06:47 k 19:07:35 you are not forced to use your PC Forth to produce a tethered target Forth, if that's not what you want on a particular project 19:08:00 k 19:08:26 the key is you have Forth on your PC, helping get whatever you need on a target 19:08:43 k 19:09:03 the Forth on your PC takes the place of typical non-Forth IDEs, debuggers, editors, etc... 19:09:13 whatever you need 19:09:16 or want 19:09:36 or shell scripts or whatever 19:09:41 ok 19:10:56 I think what tp wants is there to be a REPL on the target hardware 19:11:33 so you can attach a serial line to a device and boom there's a REPL by which code can be entered right away 19:11:51 you can have that with a tether 19:12:07 but then you need to have a tether essentially create a hosted forth 19:12:20 not with either of my two working tethered forths 19:12:46 So the key aspect of a tethered Forth environment is that you have a dedicated Forth cross-development environment on your PC to help you produce whatever you want on the target INCLUDING if you want it a fully function onboard Forth with all the bells and whistles including an outer interpreter if you want it (aka REPL) 19:12:56 isn't the target of mecrisp across really small? 19:13:24 tabemann, tiny, it's a target binary only, absolutely no Forth 19:13:44 rdrop-exit, thanks for the long explanation 19:13:56 You replace most of your PC-side tools and scripts with Forth 19:14:23 no sweat 19:14:25 tabemann, a MSP430 blinky is about 100 bytes including the startup code and init vectors 19:15:04 tabemann, and thats for my most bog-standard, unimaginative forth blinky code 19:18:32 I always liked Frank Sergeant's expression: 19:19:00 "Let's your Forth and my Forth do lunch" 19:19:30 haha 19:19:36 he's a character 19:21:25 It's a good summary of what I was trying to explain, Forth on the PC used as a cross-development environment for a (possibly completely different) Forth(s) on the target(s) 19:23:27 Forth on the PC imho should be prefered over the typical plethora of Gnu tools and bash scripts, makes files, etc... 19:23:48 used for making targets 19:24:44 not to speak of typical non-Forth IDEs 19:31:38 In fact what I'm describing is the main use of commercial PC Forths from Forth Inc and VFX, to act as a cross-development enviroment for their target Forths 19:32:32 yes 19:34:32 Wo don't need no stinkin Gnu assembler :) 19:36:29 Take crc's Retro for example, it's not geared to be put on an embedded target, but you could probably build a great cross-development environment on it 19:39:04 I'm just guessing, haven't really looked at it yet 19:41:08 Anyhow, the main point of my diatribe is Nirvana is a Forth on the PC and Forths on the targets 19:41:30 sure, it should run on embedded, but that embedded target would need 1MB flash and 384kB ram 19:41:50 rdrop-exit, yes I can see your main point :) 19:42:10 rdrop-exit: that's on my long term todo list... 19:42:10 cool :) 19:42:20 and I think crc is looking at purchasing a suitable target for a embedded port of RETRO 19:42:34 also cool :) 19:42:57 can nothing stop RETRO ???? 19:43:08 yes; hoping to start on this later this year 19:43:23 fun fun fun 19:43:41 crc, right after the economy reopens to a post Coronavirus utopia ? 19:44:42 tp: once I can get things at home settled into a new normal so I can have a proper workspace again 19:46:51 crc, yes, this Coronavirus thing has really turned our plans upside down 20:39:38 hashforth seems to me like a suitable environment - of course it almost certainly does not compare to retro :) 20:39:55 * tabemann put in the kitchen sink when he implemented hashforth 20:40:17 all it needs is a garbage collector 20:41:36 its main drawbacks is lack of much in the way of POSIX call interface 21:07:19 cool tabemann 21:07:37 --- quit: mark4 (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 21:17:17 --- quit: Vedran (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 21:17:46 --- join: Vedran joined #forth 21:27:31 --- quit: reepca` (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 21:27:43 --- join: reepca` joined #forth 21:37:28 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection) 22:20:50 tabemann, I couldnt get hashforth compiled on FreeBSD you may recall 22:21:13 it not your fault 22:21:45 FreeBSD is different to Linux and a lot of Linux developed apps wont work on it 22:53:30 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 23:28:21 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 23:56:43 --- join: xek joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.04.29