00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.04.26 00:31:46 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 01:38:15 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 01:41:39 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 01:44:49 crc, this is a better md2html. https://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/ I note that daringfireball is also mentioned in the Fossil https://www.fossil-scm.org/fossil/md_rules 01:45:41 crc, it has a clear license and uses Perl, but what unix host doesnt already have Perl installed ? 01:57:25 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 02:00:29 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 02:20:08 --- join: merkc0 joined #forth 02:20:12 how to get the number of elements currently on the data stack ? 02:21:32 DEPTH 02:23:19 (unless it's a circular stack) 02:28:08 tabemann: My forth is 1-2 bytes per call right now 02:29:20 rdrop-exit: thanks 02:29:41 is there a way to know the relative depth of the return stack? 02:29:48 my pleasure 02:30:09 (eg how many elements have been added during the word execution up to this point ) 02:30:51 is it possible to define such a word that returns this RDEPTH ? 02:32:56 sure, you'd have to look into the internals of your Forth 02:33:49 ok 02:34:28 loop for primitives such as R0 RP@ or similarly named, see if your Forth documents its memory map 02:34:54 and register assignments 02:35:25 * look for primitives (not "loop" for primitives) 02:35:45 Loop inside your brain's search logic for the primitives 02:35:53 :) 02:35:57 :) 02:36:06 Could be 'R 02:36:11 RP@ is more likely 02:36:30 merkc0: What forth are you using? 02:36:36 spf-forth 02:36:38 yes it's RP@ 02:37:45 maybe it has RDEPTH already? 02:38:07 it doesn't 02:39:40 https://github.com/philburk/hmsl/blob/master/hmsl/fth/p4thbase.fth#L217 02:39:46 I'm not familiar with spf-forth 02:40:13 I'm trying it out 02:40:25 merkc0: Why do you use spf, by the way? 02:41:00 tons of libs , I liked the examples I saw in it 02:43:43 Also they're on version 4.20 duuuuuuude 02:47:58 Oooh SPF is a CAPITAL Forth 02:48:12 by default but you can change that 02:48:41 to case insensitive 02:50:41 * tp is a primitive 02:51:30 I'm definitely going to be insensitive by default 02:52:07 rdrop-exit, I'm saved! my bottle of Kahlua Coffee Liqueur was just delivered :) 02:52:24 fiesta time! 02:52:50 My disco came days ago and now my fiance is making me wait to my birthday to open it, sad! 02:53:15 veltas, 'GOING to be insensitive' ???? 02:53:31 tp: Yes there's no word lookup yet 02:53:33 eww, thats a cruel display of wahmen power! 02:53:38 I'm doing input first 02:53:41 I prefer case sensitive 02:54:11 although I use lowercase for almost everything 02:54:12 Well maybe I can add an option, would be trivial 02:54:31 rdrop-exit, I'm lowercase addicted 02:55:07 * tp hates icons on screens and mixed case in programs 02:55:22 * tp is a member of the lowercase 02:55:38 you mean lower-caste 02:56:31 * veltas looks around with sweat on his forehead 02:57:01 heheh 02:57:46 rdrop-exit, yeah, but I figured that "lowercase" was close enuf and would be punny 02:57:59 What do you mean "icons on screens" by the way? 02:58:14 veltas, any icons on a window manager 02:58:17 So you didn't like Windows 3 that much then? 02:58:32 Windows 95 would have been a visual improvement for you? 02:58:42 Ive used IceWM with no icons for at least the last 20 years now 02:59:07 veltas, I actually abhor windows 02:59:11 I do actually think Windows 95 has a good window manager. It's a tiling hybrid window manager too, technically 02:59:16 and with good reason 03:00:14 There is an interesting trend with tech tp, and I don't think this just applies to software but it's very relevant here 03:00:36 case sensitive makes most sense to me, the name of a word is whatever you typed in when you defined it 03:00:52 Where in order to reach more people each generation of software will reinvent how it's displayed and interacted with, in different ways, but lose control and functionality 03:01:48 And now we have a situation where there are some people doing everything from the terminal on a good old *NIX, and some people most of their work in windows and getting good productivity still, and then some people who basically need to do everything in a web interface 03:01:58 And then people that need tablets for everything 03:02:10 And then people that only do anything on their phones 03:02:11 using windows makes ne feel like I'm rushing a critically sick person to hospital thru 200 miles of narrow mountainous roads in a 1972 Ford Mustang that has never been serviced. It has shot brakes, a clapped out engine and suspension and leaks oil and water. 03:03:08 unix gives me a Audi quattro exactly like mine that feels like the tyres are literally glued to the road 03:03:08 I have to use it at work, and so therefore I spend a lot of my time in a fullscreen Linux VM pretending the outside world doesn't exist ;-) 03:04:14 veltas, to those that only use Windows, Windows is well Windows, to a Unix user, being forced to use Windows isnt easy 03:04:33 Oh tp yesterday do you know what I did with my forth? 03:04:34 I have the greatest of sympathy for such people 03:04:40 no ? 03:04:51 Thanks tp it is a day by day 03:05:20 I separated my search dictionary from my code/parameter dictionary 03:06:00 i.e. separated headers 03:06:04 Which means right now, if I like a game or something I write in my forth, and don't need interpreting anymore, I can leave out the search dictionary entirely 03:06:35 i.e. beheading 03:06:39 Bye-bye all symbols and chains, all that's left is code and data, and we have a much smaller binary footprint for deploying 03:07:16 https://ideone.com/E4PwOP is it possible to implement this RRDEPTH without :r and r; ? 03:08:32 never heard of :r and r; that must be specific to your Forth 03:08:46 He just wrote them 03:08:56 oh 03:09:10 rdrop-exit do you have an opinion on me separating my headers? 03:12:09 it's a good technique, usually goes by the name of "separated headers" 03:12:24 I prefer to just keep my headers on another machine 03:13:21 but as you know, my preference is for tethered Forth setups 03:13:35 Yes, you and tp right? 03:15:47 he's probably partaking of his Kahlua atm 03:16:57 My dad owned an MG Roadster a few years ago for the sake of it, and I admired that car a lot. I think I'd like to own an older car one day just as a learning exercise, a bit like using an old computer taught me stuff about computers. 03:20:45 My father was into cars, boats, and motorcycles, he was a genious mechanic and restorer. 03:22:07 I barely know anything about cars or their maintenance, I think I would make Karen from Facebook look like a jaded mechanic. 03:22:48 For me, cars really are a tool. They get me from A to B. I think they *could* be interesting to me, but right now they are not. 03:22:59 I'd be incapable of a proper oil change, and I haven't driven in about 25 years. 03:24:46 I think I could change my oil, I might need to actually given I still need to drive and it's been over a year since it was done 03:33:04 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 04:00:23 bak. apologies had a phonecall 04:00:48 Why does my black power supply with corrugated edges that's clearly meant to passively cool itself get so hot when I leave it wrapped up in my bed duvet geez 04:01:05 Clearly this thing needs an active cooling system 04:06:46 I've applied this strategy with a great success: passive cooling works best when you plug the device power off 04:10:32 veltas, they all do 04:10:59 if something has a heat sink but no fan, thats because it expects a fan somewhere else 04:11:36 It's like a laptop power brick 04:11:44 AC adaptor 04:12:13 I think it really was hoping I would kindly not leave it wrapped up in my bed duvet 04:12:33 I find a hamster wheel works best. 04:12:34 good way to start a fire, get electrocuted 04:12:49 matches are classic, nothing beats classic 04:13:09 How do you get electrocuted with a match? 04:13:16 You can start a fire, sure 04:13:23 veltas, actually Im a big fan of on chip forths as well 04:13:39 jackdaniel never thinks that far, as soon as the fire is lit he's happy and goes home 04:13:45 lol 04:14:11 I thought that we talk about firing the home, don't make me walk when I don't have to 04:14:16 I do all my vehicle work myself, I learnt mechanics watching my dad 04:15:26 my car is a 1994 audi quatro, permanent 4wd sedan with 'torsen differentials', 2.8l V6, 6 speed manual, rated at 140 mph 04:15:56 probably get there too, ... eventually ;-) 04:15:57 I turn to leave with jackdaniel and he says to me "no, they'll expect one of us in the wreckage, brother" 04:16:47 140mph at terminal air velocity 04:17:00 veltas, Im waiting for tabemann to write a cortex-m0 tethered Forth 04:17:14 veltas, hahah, no, horizontal on the road 04:17:28 Ive done that speed a few times, it's not that fast 04:17:35 'horizontal' on a magic road 04:17:48 170 mph is faster than Id like to go 04:18:02 News was freaking out about someone driving about 140mph recently on the M4 04:18:10 Or M40 or something 04:18:48 i once road a motorbike that had been officially timed at 170 mph, scariest ride of my life, and nearly the last ride of my life 04:19:16 news freaks out about anything... 04:20:03 there are only 3 rules to riding at 140 mph (I have found) 04:20:09 1) dont hit anything 04:20:20 2) dont brake suddenly 04:20:31 3) dont roll of the throttle quickly 04:20:54 any of those are likely to hurt you very badly 04:22:48 hey, it doesnt run forth, but I just saw this advert, I paid $130 for mine and it's simply the best watch Ive ever owned 04:22:51 https://www.gearbest.com/smart-watches/pp_689346.html 04:23:08 I'm tempted to buy another one as a spare 04:23:27 now that theyre $89.99 04:25:29 oops I see that price is USD :( 04:25:42 slightly more than I paid for mine then 04:28:38 I currently use a pocket watch, gave my wrist watches to the kids a few years back 04:29:20 what happened to your sundial ? 04:30:22 Actually I have a sundial somewhere 04:31:14 :) 04:32:56 It's a small brass gadget that's meant to be worn as a pendant around your neck 04:33:21 A reproduction of some ancient sundial 04:33:34 original Greek jewellery ? 04:34:16 It was a gift when I was a teenager 04:34:42 I hope I still have it in a drawer somewhere 04:35:41 the original greek one was better, solid gold ;-) 04:35:56 I bet :) 04:37:16 It looks quite similar to this (but brass and no jewel) 04:37:27 https://www.arsmundi.com/dw/image/v2/AAOI_PRD/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-ArsMundi-Catalog/default/dw60bc3b63/images/698632_2.jpg?sw=536&sh=536&sm=fit 04:38:26 thats nice 04:39:05 very clever 04:40:09 It's good you mentioned it, I should try to find it and give it to one the kids, they might get a kick out of it 04:40:31 they may need it in a couple of years! 04:40:49 :)) 04:42:10 getting summoned for dinner, catch you later, stay healthy 04:42:15 cya 04:42:16 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 05:22:25 --- join: TCZ joined #forth 05:25:34 BYE 05:25:34 BYE 05:30:42 --- join: xek__ joined #forth 05:33:17 --- quit: xek_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 05:33:25 --- part: TCZ left #forth 05:50:43 how to define a word ::: which works exactly like : but adds an extra functionality at the beginning of every word it compiles ::: myword 1 1 + . ; myword \ should print "Hello" and 2 05:56:15 merkc0: Maybe something like ... : ::: : [ S" Hello" SWAP LITERAL LITERAL POSTPONE TYPE ] ; 05:58:29 SLITERAL instead of SWAP LITERAL LITERAL 05:59:44 ::: myw 1 1 + . ; 05:59:44 ^ 8 ERROR_NOT_ENOUGH_MEMORY 06:02:51 ok this worked: 06:02:52 : ::: : 06:02:52 S" Hello" POSTPONE SLITERAL 06:02:52 POSTPONE TYPE ; 06:02:52 ::: myw 1 1 + . ; 06:02:55 thank you 06:03:46 Sometimes, merkc0, I almost think you need to sit down and try and understand compiler/interpreter state and the words for manipulating it 06:04:20 In the nicest possible way I have barely touched this stuff and yet I seem to be doing all the thinking, it's like I'm getting all the learning benefit from your exercises 06:04:29 But I do appreciate the exercises ;) 06:04:46 Because I am new to this 06:05:48 cool, actually I asked questions only after first trying it; I'm trying something more complicated here, couldn't figure it out , 'been messing with the bugs for almost 5 hours 06:06:10 your fresh mind certainly helps me a lot in such a situation 06:06:17 Okay that's good to know 06:06:30 :) 06:13:02 merkc0: Do you know why my incorrect version caused an ERROR_NOT_ENOUGH_MEMORY? 06:13:11 I'm just trying to think that through 06:13:21 I see why your program is correct 06:13:31 And I know why mine is wrong 06:13:38 But I can't figure out how the OOM is caused 06:14:14 that error appeared when I called myw 06:14:37 I copy pasted what I saw in the console, but I remember once it appeared only after executing myw 06:14:38 Not when you defined it? 06:14:50 Interesting 06:16:24 and after changing your word a little , becus it complained about the POSTPONE inside [ ] 06:21:20 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 06:22:03 wb 06:22:13 hi merkc0 c[] 06:22:22 Does anyone else find it a bit of an unnecessary detail that old forths would keep the pad just beyond HERE at all times? 06:22:41 Like why not just leave pad space in the dictionary at a fixed position? 06:22:59 save space 06:23:05 Does it? 06:23:32 yes, it's a temporary volatile usage of space 06:23:59 but personally I do as you say 06:24:45 althoug I usually don't even bother having a PAD 06:26:12 I did find it useful once to have a stack of PADS growing downwards 06:26:55 but usually I don't have or use PAD 06:28:31 it's a trivial thing to add if ever you need it, I wouldn't sweat it 06:31:07 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in) 06:32:31 what's this ::: thing? 06:35:57 I'm not sweating it, just talking aloud 06:36:08 cool 06:38:26 Merkc0, I swa you hex input thingie, I would just define a hex editor instead 06:38:41 * saw (not saw) 06:38:48 (not swa) 06:38:52 arg 06:39:13 can you show an example of such a hex editor 06:39:22 which you would define? 06:40:09 No, it's not something that would work with a standard file-oriented Forth 06:40:09 veltas: I have done that hex input ,in a way that doesn't uses a lot of LITERAL and C, 06:40:23 what's the ::: for? 06:41:29 merkc0: Good 06:42:09 rdrop-exit: Instead of deifining that ::: I'l just override : , and make it work as the normal : but with an extra feature of tracking the RDEPTH 06:42:13 I want to make a debugging facility 06:42:26 that can print the return stack, in any word at any position 06:43:14 rdrop-exit: which forth would then work, for the hex editor 06:43:37 *print the relevant part of the return stack 06:44:04 the relevant part being that where I put the data during the algorithms 06:44:12 Sounds like a good exercise 06:45:14 I see 06:45:49 I actually think the HEX,{ syntax we came up with is a nice way of entering a bunch of HEX values if you really need to do that, but I can't imagine a situation where that's actually how I'd write code 06:46:04 Because I don't think I'd have a bunch of hex 06:46:26 I think I'd name what it meant or something crazy like that. The programmer in me, I'm sure tp would say 06:47:23 I might call it C,HEX{ instead but it's obvious from almost all usage that it's bytes being entered 06:49:25 Maybe this is what rdrop-exit is saying? That you should just enter HEX into your binary and not edit it in source? 06:49:36 If you need raw binary added to the program 06:50:43 you need 10 magical bytes from the binary, and you copy paste it from the hex/editor, into the sourcecode where you're doing a tool that expands some functionality of that binary 06:51:07 Not in the source, in the data 06:53:33 If your Forth has a built-in editor that you can point to any block sized chunk of its memory, you can just type in what you need directly, say by having the ALT key or some other key switch you to hex editing quasi-mode 06:53:50 it's really nice to be able to combine forth-code + inline asm + raw hex bytes 06:55:09 Forth is interactive, you can from within your Forth edit parts of its data directly (very carefully of course) 06:55:33 sounds interesting 06:55:47 I'd like to play with such a forth editor, if you know any 06:57:12 In my next Forth, I'll be using a 16x16 Font so that I can switch from an ASCII view to a Hex view by holding down a key, and switch back by releasing the key 06:58:25 An ASCII 16x16 character occupies the same space as two 8x16 hex characters 06:58:43 cool; 06:59:32 press ALT (or something, haven't decided which key yet) and you see a screenfull of hex, release ALT and you see a screenfull of ASCII 07:00:19 Even in ASCII mode any non-glyph character (except space) would display as hex 07:01:03 same thing with editing, press ALT and your editing hex 07:02:38 nice 07:02:46 the editor displays a 1k of the Forth RAM 07:02:55 a 1k chunk ... 07:03:17 https://github.com/gerryjackson/forth2012-test-suite/blob/master/src/filetest.fth#L67 from where to get the definition of T{ and }T ? Can't find them in gforth repository 07:04:09 I think those come from the ANS test suite, you might be able to get it from the Forth 2012 website 07:04:48 wife wants to watch videos, catch you later, stay healthy 07:04:54 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 07:12:34 merkc0: https://github.com/gerryjackson/forth2012-test-suite/blob/master/src/ttester.fs#L263 07:14:03 thank you 07:35:41 can a word be tested that it printed the right string ? or only stack results can be tested 07:37:52 merkc0: It depends, write the results to a file for a forth running in an OS, or redefine your EMIT or something to record results if not possible 07:41:08 BYE 07:41:09 BYE 07:41:20 veltas: okay 07:52:14 * crc has no real experience with this testing framework, but afaik it checks stack results, not output 08:00:44 I have no doubt that almost every forth system out there has some way of redirecting displayed output 08:01:17 But the standard does not go this far, as far as I know, so it's not possible to have standard tests for it 08:01:32 Doesn't stop you from writing your own test for this 08:06:41 yes. but it's outside the scope of this particular testing framework as it wouldn't be portable across standard systems 08:10:32 My forth does not know anything about your EMIT'd content, it goes to the screen buffer. You could try and read back what's on the screen buffer though lol 08:11:29 No doubt if I carry on to conclusion there would be support for the different output devices, like into a block buffer or over a port to the printerer 08:11:53 My equivalent to emit is a generic output that can be changed to capture output 08:12:16 http://forth.works/examples/CaptureOutput.retro.html has an example 08:15:20 I've used this to send output to paste in services or to write outputs to files 08:29:19 Any serious forth system needs this, it's our equivelent of redirecting stdout 08:29:38 Like anything we have to provide that flexibility ourselves (unless it's a C forth) 08:30:31 The only 'flexible' thing I've bothered setting so far is my interrupt handler, which uses whatever XT is stored in 'INT 08:32:00 Because god help my forth if you can't add stuff to the interrupt handler, default behaviour is to run INT , so a good replacement would run INT and then whatever extra stuff, but could also replace it. 08:34:05 Going on a walk :-D 09:19:16 --- join: nmz joined #forth 11:01:38 --- quit: reepca (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11:02:01 --- join: reepca joined #forth 11:05:02 --- quit: tp (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 11:08:21 --- quit: merkc0 (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 11:14:55 --- join: tp joined #forth 11:14:55 --- quit: tp (Changing host) 11:14:55 --- join: tp joined #forth 13:22:37 And today's quiz, when is *suspending* faster than a spinlock? 13:23:43 does a lemming hanglide ? 13:25:07 Is that the next quiz question? 13:25:19 yeah 13:25:59 * tp is so happy to have solved his md2html problem, thank the ghods for OSS 13:26:06 Yeah right? 13:27:33 i now feel that I have a modern, automated, IDE irrelevant, fully automated Forth project release tarball system 13:28:04 usable by non Forth users to expert Forth users 13:29:14 I have been moaned at today for not using CI services on github 13:29:26 Or preached at or something 13:29:35 of course as I learn more my opinion changes :) 13:29:45 hows this for the release contents > 13:29:47 I am the same, weirdly 13:29:48 ~/mecrisp-stellaris/f0-touch/imageclones% tree 13:29:48 . 13:29:48 ├── f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.DELETE.sh 13:29:48 ├── f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.README.html 13:29:48 ├── f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.bin 13:29:50 ├── f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.flashme 13:29:52 ├── f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.source+.fs 13:29:54 ├── f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.source-.fs 13:29:56 ├── f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.words4.txt 13:30:19 thats the contents of my releases mow 13:30:47 a fully functional binary, the full source with and without comments 13:31:10 a presentable html readme of my markdown document 13:31:20 and a full wordlist 13:31:48 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 13:32:05 this is the sum of my embedded Forth progress since 2014 13:32:06 --- join: [X-Scale] joined #forth 13:32:20 --- nick: [X-Scale] -> X-Scale 13:32:39 Have you considered.... having source and source+comments as your names? 13:32:48 Because + and - make no sense on their own 13:32:56 "fo-touch" is the cortex-m type and project name. "879d8c3eb7" id the SCM hash 13:33:13 but one look reveals all 13:33:17 --- join: xek_ joined #forth 13:33:23 i dont care if windows users dont understand 13:33:25 Yes one look at the readme 13:34:34 i think if anyone cant understand "source+" or "source-" then I dont want them reading my source anyway, so my naming strategy is much cleverer than you think :P 13:35:07 it's a auto dimwit detector and read protection mechanism 13:35:13 all in one! 13:35:34 done anyone need a po box to mail me my award ? 13:35:49 Yes please 13:35:54 --- quit: xek__ (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 13:35:55 lol 13:36:10 * veltas closes the door behind him hiding the handful of lawyers muttering about needing an address to sue 13:36:18 no, youd only post me a ancient Z80 on a stand 13:36:52 i have plenty of brand new original Z80's already 13:37:20 lol 13:37:42 the source* is for Advanced Forth users only 13:40:47 Is the 'flashme' instructions for flashing? 13:40:54 yeah 13:41:05 i use it to flash the binary 13:41:09 Why is README capitalised and not flashme? 13:41:51 it's a patented eye attraction mechanism 13:42:21 if you ever use it you will owe me royalties, and my lawyers will be in touch 13:43:01 Well my lawyers... wait I don't have any lawyers .... I promise 13:43:09 hahah 13:43:22 me neither ... honest!!!! 13:45:56 i wonder if anyone has realised the potential for personalised Coronavirus masks ? 13:46:33 mine will read "Forth have? if honk else piss off 13:46:42 mine will read "Forth have? if honk else piss off then " 13:46:42 lol 13:46:54 that makes more sense 13:46:57 yeah 13:47:06 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 13:47:15 Im a crap programmer, but that sentence actually makes pretty good sens 13:47:17 e 13:47:24 A woman in Finland was getting assaulted for wearing a mask in public, with people laughing at her and saying she was a fool for wearing a mask. 13:47:31 gees 13:47:52 well their ancestors probably burned a few non flat earthers at the stake 13:47:58 nothing new there 13:48:00 Because the media kept going on about how there was 'no evidence' masks worked or some weird stance that they rolled back on when it started becoming policy of major countries to recommend them 13:48:20 veltas, these are strange days indeed ? 13:48:41 People keep treating 'no evidence' = 'false', and it's really weird. In a very basic critical sense. 13:48:57 i mean did they assault her for wearing clothes ? 13:49:35 in her case this was a "stupid mob" violence incident 13:49:40 Yes 13:49:50 There is no evidence that if I throw my laptop at the wall it will break, but I don't need to run 10 studies to make an educated guess 13:50:09 "why don't doctors guess as well?" because of professional ethics 13:50:15 But in private they all do 13:50:17 like magpies attacking and killing a magpie because it is 'different' in some minor way, perhaps a albino 13:50:31 of course 13:50:33 lol certainly humans never do anything like that 13:50:56 no, apart from in Finland 13:51:18 she had a mask, she was different ... attack, kill 13:51:27 die die die 13:51:33 I will say bye bye bye instead 13:51:40 Or BYE BYE if I was merk 13:51:41 bye! 13:53:35 I can't help but feel sympathy for people being attacked for being different, as I once was called a rude word for buying 2 meals at once in a Mc Donalds late at night by some kids 13:53:55 was your gun out of bullets ? 13:54:18 I wish right, the police said that would have been illegal though 13:54:20 I find warning shots between the eyes can resolve those kinds of things fast 13:54:47 police spoil the right to free expression! 13:55:22 of course mobs attack for people being different, always have, always will 13:55:31 it's built in somehow 13:55:32 The real victims are the mobs 13:55:33 --- quit: reepca (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:55:45 Those poor mobs, always getting blamed for their indiscriminate attacks 13:55:57 Think about the mobs, that's what I say 13:56:00 hahahah 13:56:08 yeah, theyre just misunderstood 13:56:10 --- join: reepca joined #forth 13:56:24 mobs need a LOT of love and hugs 13:56:25 I always feel sympathy for the mobs because I was once in a mob 13:56:57 mobs had parents that didnt love them enough 13:57:24 You know what, never underestimate just how little people care about anything 13:57:31 mobs just need to express their inner selves 13:57:39 oh I dont 13:57:56 it's on a scale tho 13:58:48 the highest end of the "care about fellow humans" is on the highest poverty end of the number line 13:58:56 and vive versa 13:59:48 want to walk past a house where the inhabitants will all come out and insist that you cannot walk by without coming inside for a meal 14:00:32 youll have to go the poorest part of uganda where the house is a made out of mud and sticks 14:01:03 How do you know this? 14:01:07 want to be utterly ignored ? walk past a gated millionaires estate in california 14:01:14 I read 14:01:45 I read a book by a single elderly woman who crossed uganda with her donkey in the 70's 14:04:00 I have read books about africa as well, slightly less positive 14:04:37 well uganda was once the shining light of civilisation 14:04:50 a long time ago 14:05:17 a long, long time ago 14:05:45 the world has changed a lot since then 14:05:48 as it does 14:06:15 like forth, once it was *the* language 14:06:45 now it's just a footnote in the pages of programming languages to everyone but it's acolytes 14:07:59 "the shining light of civilisation" that is a pun but it's not really true though is it? 14:08:10 yeah 14:08:16 sure 14:08:20 in it's day 14:08:57 like Constantinople and other areas once were 14:09:16 uganda has a long long history 14:09:35 Every country does usually 14:09:45 Evidence from the Paleolithic era shows humans have inhabited Uganda for at least 50,000 years. 14:09:57 they had a long time to improve 14:10:43 I've noticed that the history of a lot of countries is that they started by conquering a load of neighbouring tribes 14:10:43 The words of Winston Churchill published in 1908 still ring true today in the 21st Century. “For magnificence, for variety of form and color, for profusion of brilliant life — bird, insect, reptile, beast — for vast scale — Uganda is truly “the Pearl of Africa.” 14:10:56 And then they get conquered by some empire 14:10:59 And then a bigger empire 14:10:59 yeah 14:11:06 same everywhere 14:11:20 Until the whole world is run by one dominant empire effectively 14:11:33 except australia, because they all took one look and kept going 14:11:37 lol 14:11:40 heh 14:11:46 hot, arid, desolate 14:12:02 only good to exile prisoners 14:12:22 Well australia did get conquered, just for a different reason than usual 14:12:22 if they tried to swim away the sharks got them 14:12:26 yeah 14:12:43 it's always a superior tech civ arrive 14:13:34 "This place is really far away and the wildlife is all really dangerous and kills you dead" "Well our prisons are at capacity...." "God save the King" 14:14:03 you had phalanxes, they had roman legions 14:14:51 yeah, my parents were born here, my ancestors came from the UK. to me Australia is a lovely place, to the indigenous people it was a paradise 14:15:17 to a english convict it would have been hell 14:16:00 it was 35C in here at this workbench yesterday, at age 66 I dont really appreciate that kind of heat 14:18:47 No air con? 14:19:02 No air, con? ;-) 14:19:52 Is it true aussies always get mistaken for brits by americans? 15:52:10 yeah probably 16:04:45 --- quit: benjamin-l (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 16:10:23 --- join: kmstout joined #forth 16:15:07 tp: Did you say you live in a big warehouse? 16:15:16 yes 16:15:34 well it's not that big, only 20 metres by 15 metres 16:15:48 and about 15 metres high in the centre 16:15:53 If my life ever goes completely awry I want to at least own and live in a small warehouse 16:16:04 Have you ever lived in a van? 16:16:17 it has it's positives and negatives like anything else 16:16:19 sure 16:16:35 I lived in a van on the back of a truck for about 2 years 16:16:52 was outstanding, wish I had that setup now 16:17:00 Well I like the idea of living little or living in a warehouse I just assume like the collosal bigot I am my fiance doesn't want to 16:17:14 I haven't even asked her, how bad am I, maybe that's her dream life 16:17:35 problem of living in a big warehouse is that the space to collect stuff is unlimited 16:17:47 women wont approve, no way 16:18:22 they want a loungeroom full of ceramic dolphins and lacework in multiple glass displays 16:18:34 Do you get those massive spiders in your warehouse? 16:18:36 and a room for all the babies 16:19:06 nah, hardly any spiders here, the birds eat them faster than they can multiply 16:19:16 Good riddance 16:19:47 I have a lot of 'barking gecko' lizards, quite cute 16:19:50 Those massive spiders would give me a heart attack, I couldn't handle that 16:20:11 yeah, Im a arachnophobe 16:20:20 we dont have 'massive' spiders 16:20:48 largest is the harmless 'wolf spider' with big fangs but no venom 16:21:08 and thats about 1.5" across 16:21:27 I guess a tarantula would be bigger but I've never seen one 16:22:29 the most dangerous is the small 'redback' and the larger 'funnel web' the latter is very agressive and deadly during the mating season, but thery only exist in certain areas, not where I live 16:23:17 i was chased by a cousin of the Funnel Web across my loungeroom once, nearly gave me a heart attack 16:23:24 bastards! 16:23:24 Huntsman spiders are quite big 16:23:36 are they ? 16:23:38 I never understood why people get so upset if I kill a spider in front of them 16:23:51 I dont, I'll probably beat you to it 16:24:02 any spider I see is a ex spider 16:24:21 (thats inside) 16:24:27 outside I dont care 16:24:57 Luckily my fiance has no issue with that so when I'm on 'spider duty' I don't have any trouble 16:24:59 I mean if we killed every spider on earth in a couple of days we would be knee deep in insects 16:25:20 I wonder if that's actually true 16:25:29 and the huntsman is no biggie, I woke to one on my bare chest one morning 16:25:35 it is here 16:25:55 i flicked it off where it sat about a metre away looking a bit upset 16:26:10 I don't plan on trying it anyway, instead let's evolve spiders to stay out of my bloody house 16:26:19 That's a start 16:26:28 they can and do inflict a painfull stab with their long fangs, which are like needles 16:27:03 --- quit: MrMobius (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 16:27:13 i annoyed one once with a broom handle and there was a loud "clack' as it stabbed the wooden end, I even felt thru the brom 16:27:31 i decided then to never annoy one with a finger 16:27:51 they use the fangs to stab cockroaches etc 16:27:55 They are not poisonous though right? 16:27:59 no 16:28:10 the fangs arent hollow, theyre stabbers only 16:28:20 --- join: MrMobius joined #forth 16:28:21 But a dagger isn't poisonous and it can kill you, so I am not sure what point I am trying to make 16:28:29 I dont mind them, they are calm and avoid people 16:28:42 very small dagger, only lethal to insects 16:28:50 just painful to a finger 16:29:44 i grew up with all this, I dont see any of them as a problem, and I like snakes 16:29:57 Snakes are cool, never been scared of them 16:30:08 yeah, and many are quite deadly here 16:30:14 but they know theyre deadly 16:30:33 so theyre cautious of man but know they can probably kill us 16:31:05 But I do get that phobias are not really rational, they are just ingrained from the times when we lived in hellscapes like australia 16:31:13 their personalities are like ice, it can be chilling when youre next to a deadly snake the width of a mans arm and 20 feet long 16:31:33 Luckily australia is not a real place 16:31:50 yeah, I comfort myself with that knowledge all the time 16:32:09 Yeah I would be scared of a deadly snake if I was near one, but that would be a rational fear, so not a phobia 16:32:19 yeah, I'm the same 16:32:34 like standing next to a spinning hellicopter tail rotor 16:32:37 That's like saying "I have a phobia of getting hit by motorway traffic, I can never seem to jump in front of cars!" 16:32:43 haha 16:33:22 Finally got down to working on my input code the last couple days 16:33:28 about time 16:33:29 ! 16:33:32 P! 16:33:36 P@ 16:33:48 I've been diligently improving mine the whole time! 16:33:53 Anyway off to bed, I need to get up early tomorrow 16:33:58 even if it's only the IDE and delivery system 16:34:09 I can't say that my time was well spent 16:34:15 no problemo gnight, thanks for the chat 16:34:44 night 17:00:08 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 18:09:32 hey guys 18:09:52 hey tabemann 18:10:50 what next to implement... 18:11:19 tabemann, what do you think of my automatic release tarball format ? 18:11:22 :~/mecrisp-stellaris/f0-touch/imageclones% tree 18:11:23 . 18:11:23 ├── f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.DELETE.sh 18:11:23 ├── f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.README.html 18:11:23 ├── f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.bin 18:11:23 ├── f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.flashme 18:11:25 ├── f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.source+.fs 18:11:27 ├── f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.source-.fs 18:11:28 ├── f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.words4.txt 18:11:43 cool 18:11:56 source+ is the full source inc comments 18:12:18 source- has no comments, for uploading 18:12:45 readme.html is my project scm .md notes 18:13:14 so a complete novice can flash the tarball and it's running 18:13:29 what's the difference between .bin and .flashme? 18:13:42 a proficient forther can eraseflash to get the kernel, edit the source and upload 18:14:09 flashme ...... 18:14:11 st-flash erase 18:14:11 st-flash write f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.bin 0x08000000 18:15:23 "f0-touch" is the project name and 879d8c3eb7 is the first 8 characters of the SCM hash 18:15:46 I use conventional version numbers because I otherwise won't remember what is what 18:16:05 and also so the user knows what's newest 18:16:30 and it all winds up as f0-touch.879d8c3eb7.tar.gz 18:16:35 and how significant each version is 18:17:16 I plan to just have a changelog of the different hashes 18:17:36 i can do arbitary version numbers but cant be bothered 18:17:46 it's only a simple tag for me 18:18:06 I'm such a lazy coder I should be a legend ... 18:18:42 you're not a lazy documenter 18:18:53 no, thats cause I'm not a programmer ;-) 18:19:16 I actually like writing accurate and efficient doc 18:19:18 * tabemann is the kind of coder who usually thinks that code with comments minus code is adequate documentation ;) 18:19:42 code with comments minus code? 18:20:01 all great programmers hate documentation 18:20:20 i.e. documents which are just word names plus signatures plus the comment that goes along with such in the code 18:20:26 thats not a criticism, only a observation 18:20:26 *documentation 18:20:53 I've tried to not be a great programmer as of late 18:20:58 we are what we are 18:21:01 hahah 18:22:17 you have to remember this true story, once a autistic girl who couldnt speak picked up a ballpoint pen and started drawing the most incredible drawings 18:22:45 they included a Cossak on a horse, with drawn sword in a charge 18:23:26 the eyes of Cossack and horse were the most incredible part, they seem to stare out of the drawing at you 18:24:13 a psychiatrist seeing the drawings took the girl on as a special effort, determined to teach this awesome artist to speak 18:24:33 and in a few years the girl could speak about 10 words 18:25:08 but she never drew any more pictures, she seemed to lose the ability with her newly acquired speech 18:25:45 I think the thing is that programmers assume other people think like them 18:25:59 I draw no conclusions but note that we are what we are, and trying to be good at what we are not always runs the rick of being mediocre at whet we once excelled 18:26:15 so they thing just signatures and simple comments are sufficient, since how the code works ought to be self-evident 18:26:20 we all assume everyone thinks like us 18:26:49 I must say, I really hate the programmer slogan of "good code is self documenting" 18:27:12 because I know it to be utterly untrue 18:27:51 think of my *_guide.md files versus my *_words.md 18:27:59 or rather only true in very limited cases 18:28:30 my *_words.md files are so spare to almost be useless 18:28:56 yeah, theyre the tabemann equivalent of doxygen but harder to write ;-) 18:29:03 whereas my *_guid.md files, at least to me, seem at least somewhat sufficient 18:29:17 *_guide.md 18:29:32 tabemann, I also really think that your tarballs should include the .md files as .html files 18:29:44 and do away with the .nd files 18:29:49 .md files 18:30:16 do you know of a good .md to .html converter? 18:30:20 i dont even include a .md file as you can see 18:30:29 hell yeah, glad you asked! 18:30:41 and I don't mean fossil :P 18:30:48 https://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/ 18:31:35 and https://github.com/brxfork/md2html for a simpler file by file process but using the same daringfireball system 18:31:50 tp: I'd prefer both html and markdown; no reason to force someone to use a browser to read the project notes 18:31:55 lol, fossil isnt a .md parser 18:32:29 crc and no reason to force people to navigate .md files with a text viewer 18:33:08 but it's easy to include both I guess 18:33:09 I don't have an html viewer on my openbsd box 18:33:22 tho I doubt people will bother with md 18:33:29 or my freebsd box 18:33:32 crc then youre a rarity 18:33:47 I use DILLO for all my internal html browsing 18:34:03 no X on either system 18:34:05 it's fast light, never crashes, and cant handle JS or anything like that 18:34:53 crc, well youre a coding god in my opinion, I won't argue with you on anything like this 18:36:04 crc but I only read your html doc myself 18:38:23 I use a mostly use a gopher based interface to my docs or the markdown files directly 18:38:51 html I pretty much only access via an ipad 18:39:16 * crc wonders how many prefer html... 18:39:25 zillions ... 18:39:30 imho 18:40:28 in fact my forth doc site is very popular simply because it's html I, and also because it's the *only* html doc site for Mecrisp-Stellaris Forth :) 18:40:36 -I 18:41:18 the author supplies a text file readme, and frankly altho well done, it's horrible to use 18:41:52 many Mecrisp-Stellaris users just access my html Definition page 18:42:14 because browsers make it really easy to read and search 18:44:32 i personally like the simplicity of doc creation with markdown, but dont assume because I do that users will love to read it in html 18:44:52 oops I mean "read it in markdown" 18:48:04 it'd be interesting to find a way to know for sure 18:49:33 --- join: boru` joined #forth 18:49:36 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 18:49:38 --- nick: boru` -> boru 18:50:18 how about a Retro Doc page with markdown and another with the same as HTML ? 18:50:27 and count the hits ? 18:51:06 I'm willing to wager a brand new, unused, genuine factory STM32F051 chip that HTML will win by far 18:51:19 :) 18:52:59 I'm sure you're right 18:53:56 tracking hits would necessitate adding support for that to my gopher and http servers, which I've avoided doing so far 18:54:18 I'm confident I'm right but only hard data would tell 18:54:47 My first rule is: "automate where ever possible" 18:55:02 * crc makes a note to explore this after the upcoming release 18:55:03 My second rule is: "use data not intuition" 18:55:50 so many things I was *sure* would be awesome hits just dissapeared into obscurity with a damp fizzle 18:56:36 ABBA said ' we had no idea which songs would be massive hits, and were just amazed when one was" 18:57:07 back 18:58:06 tp 18:58:12 that markdown converter is broken 18:58:21 it cuts the files off partway through 19:01:20 okay, I figured out the problem 19:01:31 it was reading the *~ files created by emacs - lol 19:08:24 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 19:10:43 * crc should start testing his md to HTML against markdown from other people 19:12:38 crc maybe test against the https://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/ which fossil refers to ? 19:12:58 tabemann, youre a EMACS user ?? 19:13:03 you sly devil! 19:13:13 lol 19:13:59 it's amazing you know someone for years, and one day they come out of the closet and say "terry, Ive something to tell you ..." 19:14:13 I installed emacs on my work machine today, because it provides the best support for macros of any editor I've used (I have heard notepad++ also has good macro support, but I'm not familiar with its macros, unlike emacs macros) 19:14:24 and then the shock sets in ... christ, theyre a EMACS user !!!!! 19:14:33 lolol 19:15:10 for work, though, I normally use Visual Studio Code (the horror), IntelliJ (the horror), and vi 19:15:23 tabemann, actually I like EMACS, I'm editor agnostic 19:16:07 yes, with github and VS, microsoft is making great inroads onto the OSS community 19:16:40 at home, though, my primary editor is emacs, except for what git brings up, which is nano, because I had emacs set as my EDITOR, but somehow an update broke that and set it to nano 19:17:11 Im definitely not a NANO user 19:17:27 tp: I remember an April fools post on Hackaday about how Linux distributions are dropping support for vi and emacs in favor of VS Code 19:17:33 it's so sad to see Linux users dumbed down 19:17:45 people weren't so sure that it was an April fools post 19:17:52 heheh, I saw that and knew it was a aprils fool 19:18:20 there are still a lot of Linux people who absolutely hate microsoft 19:19:10 tp: My markdown doesn't support everything, just a subset; I'm unlikely to support everything (definitely not doing all the syntax variations; e.g., I only support the tax header types, and I won't be implementing all of the link forms) 19:19:13 I keep on using Github because it's A) convenient and B) I'm not going to move my code, or keep my code in more than one place 19:19:36 it's ok, I make no judgement you sellout sycophant 19:19:44 lol 19:19:49 ;-) 19:20:57 I do hear people are moving back to sourceforge though 19:21:10 whereas I disliked sourceforge for getting all ad-infested 19:21:33 i guess it was an alternative to selling out to microsoft ? 19:21:43 of course there's also GitLabs 19:21:45 they have to pay their bills somehow ? 19:21:53 yeah 19:22:36 I just use sourceforge cause it's easy and free 19:22:49 I moved off of sourceforge pretty quickly. Used darcs for a few years, git and mercurial intermittently, fossil, then bzr for retro11, and now back to fossil 19:22:52 and I can host my Mecrisp-Stellaris doc site there for free 19:23:37 crc I used CVS, mercurial, bzr then fossil 19:23:39 I dislike relying on third party infrastructure 19:24:32 * crc has a really crude version control thing written in forth, but it's not ready to distribute 19:24:35 I was spending $12 a month hosting my Mecrisp-Stellaris doc on digital ocean and it adds up after a few years 19:26:02 brb 19:26:12 I spend about $20/month on servers, but that's covered by sales of retro and a gopher client on iOS 19:28:58 aigh! forgot to commit my binaries for zeptoforth from my most recent release (even though they are included in the .tar.gz file I released) 19:37:06 --- quit: kmstout (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 19:38:08 --- join: kmstout joined #forth 19:39:32 --- quit: kmstout (Client Quit) 19:42:45 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 19:43:38 hey 19:44:51 hey tabemann 19:45:57 * tabemann now has a script to convert all his Markdown docs to HTML 19:46:41 so that when I create release .tar.gz docs it will have documentation in HTML rather than Markdown 19:48:05 cool! 19:48:20 congrats 19:50:14 I've automated the release process as much as reasonably feasible at this point 19:51:13 i.e. building all the kernel binaries, building full binaries for selected platforms (because switching cables is necessary this is not fully automatable), and then producing a .tar.gz file 19:51:54 I like pdf docs 19:51:57 uploading .tar.gz files to github and to hackaday is not presently automated 19:52:39 pdf docs can be prettier, but they're harder to generate 19:53:06 e.g. generating PDF from Markdown probably would involve converting Markdown to LaTeX, and that to PDF 19:53:42 * tabemann remembers the days he made a habit of writing his assignments for school in LaTeX - lol 19:54:04 tabemann, I'm still a big latex fan 19:54:47 but latex is just not suitable for the web imho 19:55:16 LaTeX is suitable when you want the equivalent of a paper hard copy of a document 19:55:26 sure 19:55:53 yes, which is what I want, a document of similar quality to a book 19:55:57 but then thats not the web, thats " the equivalent of a paper hard copy" 19:56:16 rdrop-exit, and for that LaTeX utterly rules 19:56:16 so what if it's not the web? 19:56:20 yes 19:56:30 so what if it's not a book ? 19:56:33 :) 19:56:54 some of us cant be bothered trailering 5 tonnes of books around 19:56:59 Web-based documentation usually suck 19:57:04 feeding 100 million Silverfish 19:57:31 damaging our wrists holding 10 lb books up in bed 19:57:55 kids think generating a html or md from their code is documentation, usually it's garbage 19:58:12 everything sucks, it's only the matter of how much that differentiates them 19:58:56 as always, it's it's the tool that get blamed when someone has no gift, in this case *writing* 19:59:19 if you have no writing skill anything will look crap, including latex 19:59:33 rdrop-exit, but that's the problem with basing documentation on code comments and signatures, not on HTML or Markdown versus LaTeX 19:59:34 and if you do, you can write awesome doc with Microsoft Paint 20:00:40 I bet you can have documenation that is just as shitty with LaTeX as with HTML or Markdown - after all, one can have automatic documentation generation tools that use the same source for all three 20:00:42 Appendices can be generated, but documentation is written 20:01:14 sadly documentation is a dying art 20:01:45 onve companies employed skilled professional documentation writers, now it's all doxygen 20:02:04 yes, I remembe reading about that 20:02:11 my company doesn't even have doxygen 20:02:28 do they do any doc ? 20:02:30 just compare the docs written in the 70s, e.g. Bell Labs, to what kids consider documentation today 20:02:36 at least 95% of the code at my work is completely undocumented 20:02:37 yeah 20:02:50 tabemann, so sad 20:02:59 doxygen would be a huge step up 20:03:18 or the nasa docs, look at the doc for the lunar lander guidance computer is beyond awesome 20:03:42 it's many thick documents, all utterly precise 20:03:50 As long as you expect to generate your docs, your docs will be garbage. Only the appendices should be generated. 20:03:55 and that decice has ZERO faults or bugs 20:04:55 in 1969 they went to the moon with a hand assembled computer with NO MCU's in it, the code was written by one guy 20:04:58 my work is focused on getting bugs fixed for the next monthly release pronto, not documenting their code 20:05:28 and it was 100% bugfree, the astronauts survived 20:05:29 they don't seem to realize how self-contradictory that is 20:05:43 tabemann, a bit soul destroying ? 20:06:21 tp: at my previous job, I worked on MRI machines, and their code was the same exact way 20:06:34 now in 2020, Boeing cant even launch a capsule into the right Earth orbit without spending 4.8 Trillion $ to get a 'clock sync error' 20:06:52 tabemann, wow, thats cool 20:07:10 both this job and my previous job have requirements for sure, but not documentation 20:07:14 people just go through the motions, rather than trying to produce quality code and documentation 20:07:37 Good documentation takes work 20:07:42 well it's all about profit nowdays I think 20:07:43 yes 20:07:48 and thought 20:07:54 it takes skill and many edits 20:07:59 and a gifted writer 20:08:10 and costs lot$ 20:08:33 theyre a dead breed, those doc people 20:08:51 they understood every aspect, researched every detail 20:09:28 people today seem to view requirements as a replacement for documentation 20:09:42 Using automation to generate more garbage faster is a step backwards 20:09:49 you can dl the NASA Apollo computer doc, I recommend people have a glance at it, it is truly awesome 20:10:02 agreed 20:10:50 well the nasty Coronavirus seems to hate all the new stuff, we may see may old skills come back again 20:10:55 many 20:10:56 * tabemann has spent the last week and a half working on a feature that consisted of one page of requirements; if one just glanced over the requirements one might miss the complexity of the task 20:11:13 tabemann, ouch, thats a special skill 20:11:39 tabemann, is it some type of torture, are you in the Matrix ? 20:12:38 I hate short-but-really-involved requirements because people tend to underestimate how long it would take, as was the case here 20:13:16 tabemann, is it a cunning deceit to make it appear simple and cheap while actually being the opposite 20:13:17 ? 20:13:21 I told my boss I estimated it would take six days - he insisted I shorten my estimate, yet in reality it took eight days 20:13:31 hahaah, CLASSIC! 20:13:32 well more than that, actually, as one part is not complete 20:13:56 what a world we live in, but nothing has changed 20:14:10 this stuff has always been happening 20:15:04 Experts always make it look easy, that's always been the case 20:15:44 That's the point 20:16:00 my boss always A) underestimates time needed for things and B) has no concept of "work-life balance" (two of those days were on the weekend) 20:16:04 tabemann, your boss reminds me of Lex Luthor (gene hackman) in the film Superman, he sends his mad scientist (richard prior) to kill Superman, and when he fails (its Superman!) Lex says to him "I ask you to kill Superman ... and you can't even do that one simple thing" 20:16:56 tabemann, usually people like your boss have no concept of ** YOUR ** "work-life balance" 20:17:05 theirs is just fine 20:18:33 rdrop-exit, so true 20:19:21 my last partner was a writer, she had a degree in it and could crank out 10,000 words of utter genius in no time at all, and loved it 20:19:46 she is moderately tech competent as well 20:20:30 one thing, though, is on the other hand the more of an expert one is, the more limited one realizes one actually is 20:20:47 playing Scrabble with her was like taking a cap gun to fight a thermonuclear weapon 20:21:03 that's why I give my boss what sounds like overestimates - because I realize just how much time something will really take 20:21:28 hence impostor syndrome 20:21:37 she would get exasperated and say things like "tp, I'm going to get you out of my misery" 20:22:04 tabemann, hence bonafide WISE person 20:22:40 my right hand at work was an excellent writer, she's now a big shot at twitter 20:23:09 conversely, often the people who are most convinced they are right are actually those who are the most limited 20:23:11 tabemann, your bosses underestimation just requires that you calibrate his unrealism factor higher than other more realistic people 20:23:32 I disagree tp 20:23:45 howso rdrop-exit ? 20:24:22 she would get exasperated and say things like "tp, I'm going to PUT you out of my misery" 20:24:40 tabemann's underlying problem is his boss doesn't defer to tabemann's expert opinion. 20:24:52 edI agree 100% 20:25:02 rdrop-exit, agree 100% 20:25:45 hence tabemann must calibrate his boss for that by multiplying tabermans estimates by K 20:26:12 even you stick an "r" in my name! 20:26:19 why do people do that 20:26:35 That will never solve the underlying problem 20:26:43 so many people have made my name taberman or tabeaman rather than tabemann 20:26:44 dont look for the ocasional r tabemann, look at ALL the times I *didnt* 20:27:03 i recommend changing your name to "T" 20:27:09 I'm just amused by the fact that people always do that 20:27:13 then youll rarely be annoyed 20:27:22 why an "r" of all letters 20:27:39 why not ? 20:27:52 if it happens a lot there must be a reason ? 20:28:08 I gave you the reason 20:28:17 probably because berman is a far more common last name than bemann 20:28:25 probably 20:28:37 rdrop-exit, ok 20:31:18 there's an easy solution to that problem, your first job is the only one you should ever apply for, you should get headhunted for the rest 20:32:20 If your boss went through the trouble of headhunting you then they have a vested interest in your credibility 20:33:14 That was how Silicon Valley worked in the 80s 20:35:14 in this case my boss hired me specifically; he actually called up a headhunting firm and asked them to find me - he knew me from a previous job, and was impressed by what he saw there 20:36:29 he seems to both like me as a programmer and personally, but puts me under a lot of pressure and does not really (as mentioned) respect my time estimates or my personal time 20:38:54 the oftentimes wants both quality code and code that is implemented quickly, without understanding the contradiction between the two 20:39:00 I can't relate to the work-life balance issue, as that was not something anyone expected in the 80s in tech 20:41:11 e.g. I every other weekend have my daughter over; but on countless weekends I have spent time working at least part of the time rather than spending time with my daughter (at least my parents are around to spend time with her) 20:41:19 but if he doesn't have confidence in you, then you should leave or make him irrelevant 20:42:59 the problem with leaving is that the job is extremely convenient in many ways - it's close to both my house, my daughter's house, and my daughter's school - almost any other job would be further away from at least one of those three 20:43:16 I spent months at a time away from my family for work reasons 20:44:47 In my day you got work-like balance via early retirement 20:44:55 * work-life 20:45:21 I've always had weekends free at my jobs in the past 20:45:36 this is the first job I've worked at where I've regularly had to work weekends 20:46:33 My last job I took 9 days vacation total over 10 years 20:47:14 (9 days total, not 9 days a year) 20:47:27 actually at my last job you were forced to have work-life balance, because it was hourly (very well-paid hourly of course), and they absolutely did not allow you to work more than 40 hours a week 20:49:08 (in theory you were supposed to spend free time doing training materials, but I openly flaunted this no consequences whatsoever, particularly because the training was typically completely irrelevant to my work) 20:49:18 *this with no 20:51:39 this work-life balance thing is a sign of the age 20:54:22 you put it as if it were a bad thing 20:56:09 it just wasn't a thing, and now it is 20:57:13 it especially wasn't a thing in tech 20:57:40 well I like spending time with my daughter, I like spending time on my projects, and I like going on vacation with her and my parents 20:57:56 of course you do 20:59:21 --- join: merkc0 joined #forth 20:59:28 I have four kids and a grandaughter, I like spending time with them 21:00:22 I retired at 47, and have had a great work-life balance since then 21:02:31 like I say, it's a totally different work environment and culture today 21:03:00 than we had in the 80s 21:04:32 okay, I'm gonna head off to sleep in a moment 21:04:54 back then it was much more "lead, follow, or get out of the way" 21:06:39 goodnight tabemann 21:08:27 rdrop-exit, good advice, I agree 21:08:39 a boss like that needs to be fired asap 21:08:41 hahah 21:08:52 :) 21:09:01 Ive walked into a few bosses office and said "youre fired" 21:09:35 when they looked confused Id add, "so ill be leaving" 21:09:43 :)) 21:10:04 i was merciless on bosses, it's my tech nature 21:10:26 if I disagreed with a instruction Id just say "no" 21:10:47 the world has changed so much, the new normal is very strange to me 21:11:06 theyd say "but Im youre boss" and Id reply, I dont care, I have never seen you as my peer 21:11:45 then Id add ' want me to leave right now this moment, I'm perfectly happy to go" ? 21:12:31 right, no time to lose on a losing situation 21:12:33 and watch the gormeless jaw drop, all their bs was helpless against my shield of steel 21:12:37 exactly 21:13:05 no one ever took up that offer by the way, I really tried on occasion 21:13:08 lol 21:13:42 I'd say 'look it's really easy, all you have to say is "terry id like you to resign right this instant" 21:14:16 it's hilarious watching the gears churn 21:15:49 but of course once that happened, Id start making other plans 21:16:03 believing that they would also 21:18:00 Kids live in a strange world today, and our world seems just as strange to them, the generation gap is still alive and well 21:18:49 it all started with the baby boom 21:19:12 before then, generation gaps weren't really a thing it seems 21:20:05 lunch is ready, catch you later, stay healthy 21:20:16 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 21:24:04 cya! 21:24:20 yeah it's a stranger world now with Coronavirus 21:45:49 --- quit: dddddd (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 21:46:11 --- quit: deesix (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 21:53:29 --- join: deesix joined #forth 22:20:45 --- quit: nmz (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 22:21:44 --- join: nmz joined #forth 22:47:31 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 23:13:02 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 23:30:24 --- quit: merkc0 (Quit: Leaving) 23:44:51 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.04.26