00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.04.25 00:05:37 --- quit: merkc0 (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 00:07:15 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 00:30:57 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 00:31:22 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection) 00:42:22 --- join: merkc0 joined #forth 00:49:12 --- quit: Vedran (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.github.io) 00:50:32 --- join: Vedran joined #forth 00:57:45 Too early for a Scotch, too late for a coffee 00:59:12 it's never too late for coffee c[] 01:00:11 (@_@)c[] 01:03:21 Just reading backlog about tabemann's multi tasking forth 01:03:30 Sounds good I am considering adding that too 01:03:36 But will add it later if I do 01:07:27 Multitasking is nice but sometimes overkill 01:10:11 --- join: reepca` joined #forth 01:10:12 --- quit: reepca (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01:11:20 it's best as an option that can be built into the Forth only if the application requires it 01:11:37 (or I should say justifies it) 01:20:25 A lot of simple apps can get by with just a loop and splitting things up into chunk-of-work words, or sometimes using coroutines to interleave work. 01:23:35 Well right now my forth is capable of handling interrupts, but not with quite as much flexibility as a full task 01:23:49 i.e they share the same stack etc 01:24:01 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 01:27:08 which is how it should be, interrupt handlers need to stay streamlined 01:45:00 --- join: xek joined #forth 01:54:04 veltas: on what platform/device does your forth run ? 01:55:05 ZX Spectrum 01:57:04 can it run in an emulator? https://fms.komkon.org/Speccy/ 01:57:42 Yes 01:59:27 I will probably release a first development version when I've written the input handling and interpreter 02:00:18 Which is what I've needed to do for a while, just been distracted with other stuff 02:00:51 And I will probably release the source too when I do that, so everyone can be horrified 02:08:53 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 02:09:22 --- join: jedb joined #forth 02:10:00 Was the ZX Spectrum your first computer? 02:12:39 No 02:12:55 ok 02:13:11 I didn't have one in the 80s, I'm twenty-something 02:13:25 I can't even remember how I ended up playing with it 02:13:44 I got a bunch of them on eBay back before they were worth a stupid amount 02:14:20 cool 02:14:20 I think it's because I knew that it would be very simple and basic, and I wanted a challenge to understand programming, computers, bloat etc better 02:14:36 Forth is part of that journey of learning about alternative ways of programming, reducing bloat, etc. 02:14:54 excellent 02:15:21 I wrote a text UI with a cursor etc on the spectrum with a variable width font 02:15:27 And I optimised it properly in assembly 02:15:45 And now sometimes I use a UI on a modern computer that literally runs slower than mine did 02:16:00 And I will say "I could code this on a 3.5MHz 8-bit processor faster" 02:16:08 sad isn't it 02:16:22 :( 02:16:57 It's why my main laptop is like 15+ years old 02:17:46 If I write a desktop app I want to be sure it is actually running efficiently 02:18:38 that's very counter-current for someone your age 02:29:13 most programmers your age seem enamored with over-generalization and premature abstraction, hence can't deal with bloat. 02:29:57 It's much harder to remove bloat after the fact than to not inject it in the first place. 02:30:07 --- quit: merkc0 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 02:33:50 But not injecting it in the first place requires a different mindset. 02:35:47 * tp hugs his watercooled 12 core with 64GB ram, it's true love ... 02:44:04 * averting my eyes 02:44:18 lol 02:46:02 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 02:53:28 --- join: TCZ joined #forth 03:08:46 --- join: iyzsong- joined #forth 03:09:37 --- quit: iyzsong (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03:10:15 rdrop-exit: I think part of why I am like this is because I'm naturally interested in history, and discovered that in many regards we haven't really 'advanced' at all 03:10:21 So it was just pulling that thread 03:11:02 veltas, in fact we may have actually devolved 03:11:24 In some respects, but there is no doubt that we are actually making progress overall 03:12:24 Like e.g. space engineers at Boeing might not be going forwards, but SpaceX seem to be 03:13:28 Spacex is a inspiration for sure, they engineer my way, build something and see what breaks 03:15:39 boeing were working on their shuttle for a decade, 44 billion and it couldnt achieve the correct orbit because of a time sync problem ???? 03:15:41 tp: My way too, iteratively 03:16:17 Yes they make many stupid assumptions, they draw a big plan in advance and say "we will do it like this" and then find engineers that will conform to what management said 03:16:19 yeah, thats the Forth way 03:17:02 They don't realise that there are always engineers who will do that for money (like me), and that engineering comes first (in reality) when you do anything, even something simple. 03:17:03 thats kinda like the C way, read all the specs, write everything, test and debig 03:17:14 Nah I do iterative programming in C too 03:17:56 sure, it's up to the programmer, but C is not nearly as well suited for iterative development as Forth 03:17:59 it's not a C thing, it's library/API thing 03:18:08 sure it's a C thing 03:18:41 the "write everything" is a library/API thing 03:19:10 oh yeah, I see that as additional disaster 03:19:11 Forth lends to it better, but don't for a second suggest the principles of iterative programming shouldn't be applied everywhere in software 03:19:34 veltas, definitely, where practical 03:19:42 Yes 03:20:14 Wherever possible, I would say. Because people 'give up' too quickly trying to apply it 03:20:22 Including myself 03:21:13 the fact that C is not interactive (talking small embedded here) means that it is nowhere as well suited to iterative design as Forth 03:21:21 I think a good example of iterative success is UNIX, which was a continuous development on a solid minimal starting point. The first version of UNIX didn't have fork, exec, C programming, and many other things considered very integral to UNIX 03:22:59 I'm not qualified to comment on systems design like that 03:23:52 Well the thing is a lot of people look at the success of UNIX, and they think all the success was down to stuff that was in the end result 03:24:08 They don't realise they never could have gotten there starting from what most people now would consider fundamental to UNIX 03:24:35 (And we know they couldn't because UNIX started following giving up on a project that was done that way, MULTICS or something like that) 03:25:03 heh, a lot of young people look at a pc and think bill gates invented them 03:25:30 Well blame IBM for that lol 03:26:03 it's their youthful lack of history, quite understandably 03:26:18 Lack of interest as well 03:26:36 yes, something I find amazing 03:26:45 Ignorance can make as all look very stupid, but we need to keep it in perspective 03:27:01 but then I grew up in a house with no phone, no tv and one radio 03:27:18 which was a pretty average house in 1954 03:28:02 The best way to build a large complex system is to evolve it from a small system that works. 03:28:06 we would listen to the radio for entertainment, it wasnt running all the time, only at certain important times such as the news 03:28:24 rdrop-exit, so true 03:29:05 People talk about 'premature optimisation' but they should talk about 'premature features' and 'premature design' 03:31:33 Kitchen-sink syndrome 03:32:51 Anyway, I don't consider myself of particular virtue in this regard, but I am on my way hopefully 03:34:49 veltas, it just takes time thats all 03:35:22 Time and many abandoned projects 03:35:39 Some people are naturally quite good at iterative work, and they have gotten a lot more done than me 03:35:55 and taking a leaf out of the spacex book, dont *talk* about it *build* it, test it, fix the bugs etc 03:35:59 Also they are probably more focused than me 03:36:27 Yes you're right tp, let's get to work, you grab the stainless steel I'll get my hydrogen fuel 03:36:41 It can only blow up in our faces right? 03:36:42 there is always someone better and someone worse, we all fit somewhere on the numberline 03:36:43 There's a simple rule, adding a new feature, should not make an existing feature worse. Simple things should stay simple. 03:37:11 rdrop-exit: Is that why you don't like CREATE ... DOES> ? 03:37:15 exactly and the most reliable and cheap part is the part that isnt there 03:37:16 Sophistication should not come at the expense of the basics. 03:38:12 veltas, yes I think it's counter-productive and leads to bad factoring 03:38:21 You don't hide addresses in Forth 03:38:29 it's funny how spacex's spaceships are looking more and more like the pictures of the old scifi writers 03:39:01 I am arrogant enough to not internally agree with you rdrop-exit, but maybe I will find out the hard way what you told me at some point 03:39:52 veltas, arrogance is a trap of youth, but at the same time it's hard to be humble when you're awesome 03:39:52 --- quit: reepca` (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 03:40:14 --- join: reepca` joined #forth 03:41:07 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03:41:24 I'm trying to say that I am humble really, but incapable of doing stuff "because I told you so", and I don't really understand rdrop-exit's rationale so far (and don't want to pester him asking him to explain it when he already tried multiple times) 03:41:28 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 03:41:29 It's my fault if I don't get it 03:41:40 I think you will find that the visibility of addresses is a major factor of the Forth way of factoring (no pun intended) 03:41:51 Hmm that actually makes a bit of sense 03:42:14 create does> buries the address 03:42:22 visible addresses are vital to me 03:43:17 Forth is predicated on the belief that leaky abstraction can be a good thing 03:43:37 "leaky abstraction"? 03:44:21 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_abstraction 03:46:23 you may name something in Forth to make it more understandable and give it a convenient handle, but you don't hide anything 03:47:04 nothing is opaque in Forth 03:48:38 "this law claims that developers of reliable software must learn the abstraction's underlying details anyway" 03:50:37 In Forth it is quite normal for the programmer to have an intimate understanding of his entire software stack 03:51:08 as opposed to programmers weaned on libraries and APIs 03:53:39 who just learn the abstractions and are lost when they start springing leaks 03:55:04 Well, I've noticed people who spend a lot of time e.g. engineering Java, who are smart, end up learning a huge amount about the Java VM 03:55:31 The map is not the territory -- Alfred Korzybski 03:56:05 Hmm 03:57:00 Home WiFi internet is a good example of a leaky abstraction 03:57:01 over-reliance on abstraction gets you into trouble 03:57:26 Because everyone seems to have it, it doesn't really 'work' for anyone, always have issues, people have no indication of what ever goes wrong 03:58:04 The people who seem to be able to use WiFi are the ones that know to reset the router occasionally, who don't actually have any grip on how it works and probably wonder aloud why the router can't reset itself 03:58:40 People can't recognise when e.g. the 'router' issue they have is actually an issue with the rubbish DNS that they were automatically assigned 04:03:25 veltas, people dont even know that theyre describing 04:04:30 what they call a 'router' is usually a modem/router/wifi POS in one, using a slow cheap mcu that can barely cope, utter junk 04:04:40 I don't like IT crowd but there was a good joke I saw circulating about them convincing a bunch of people that the 'internet' was a black box with a flashing light 04:04:54 a end user can't be expected to have a thorough understanding of technology, but more should be expected of a programmer 04:05:37 That internet black box episode was hilarious, saw it on youtube 04:05:53 rdrop-exit, I find the problem with home networking gear is cheap junk, it usually lacks the horsepower required 04:06:50 rdrop-exit: Yeah I agree, I'm not blaming someone who got internet to watch cat videos on facebook for not 'appreciating' the tech or something 04:07:14 In the end all in life boils down to Sturgeon's Law 04:08:08 "ninety percent of everything is crap." 04:08:22 yup :) 04:08:35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vywf48Dhyns 04:09:57 still hilarious 04:12:38 the part were the guys show it to her is great too 04:13:21 bbiab, stay healthy guys 04:13:25 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 04:14:02 cya! 04:16:17 veltas, so what vintage is your laptop ? 04:16:26 It's a ThinkPad T42 04:17:27 Which according to a random article was launched in 2004 04:20:13 Apparantly they went for roughly $2500 new 04:20:37 yeah thinkpads are great 04:20:40 Mine was probably less than that though, has less RAM etc. I picked it up for a modest discount of probably well under £50 04:20:47 I have a old x61s 04:21:34 I made this pc up in 2012 so it's already 8 years old 04:21:54 "About the only area where the T42 truly struggles compared to modern laptops is in handling HD video; sadly, the Radeon 9600 has no video decode acceleration for H.264 content, so even standard YouTube content can feel a bit choppy, and forget about HD videos." 04:22:20 Today I watch HD videos on here, even though the screen doesn't fit them, in mpv. 04:22:29 Performance is fine but a little screen tearing 04:22:53 They couldn't watch it in the YouTube flash player, don't get me started on the YouTube JS/HTML player lol 04:23:40 YouTube's performance is total crap on my laptop so I watch videos in mpv and/or using youtube-dl, I don't watch a lot of youtube so this is fine. 04:24:46 yeah, I'm no YouTube fan myself 04:26:06 lol https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4052/34548.png 04:26:11 This is in the article 04:26:29 So my LCD has better contrast than a T410, not surprising 04:28:53 --- quit: TCZ (Quit: Leaving) 04:29:46 I have a decent-ish desktop I use for media stuff, and it can't play 8K videos on YouTube. Like a proper graphics card, a Geforce 960 or something. mpv will play it fine 04:30:16 8k! 04:30:40 Yeah my media desktop is connected to a rubbish 4K TV 04:31:11 mt x61s has a crapy screen by todays standards but it's a decent design and 100% Linux friendly 04:31:18 Very high latency, useless for playing racing games and a bunch of things but good for watching movies with my fiance, which is what it's for really 04:31:30 --- join: TCZ joined #forth 04:31:52 i rarely use the lappie now, maybe a couple of times a week 04:32:12 8K youtube is a bit like 4K raw quality, because their bit rates are so low. It makes a big difference 04:32:59 I'm 'away' right now so I am 100% using my laptop, all day. I have a work laptop as well which I only use 8am-4pm. 04:34:14 nice if it lasts all day on batteries 04:34:30 Nah I don't use it on battery 04:34:44 It would last 6-7 hours in the sun, because I just turn the backlight off 04:34:51 mine has the battery it came with about 2012 when I bought it 04:35:16 and that battery still has perhaps 1/2 life, really impressive 04:35:18 These old LCD screens are a bit like an LCD calculator screen in the sun 04:35:37 a new battery would cost more than i paid for the laptop 04:35:39 Not exactly kindle quality but usable with the right settings 04:35:46 yeah 04:36:39 I also bought a doc for mine, and they are outstanding, same size ad the lappie with every facility one might want 04:36:46 dock 04:36:53 Serial? 04:37:00 everything 04:37:20 serial, parallel, usb, cd, charger 04:37:26 hdd drive 04:37:32 Nice 04:37:45 I bought them secondhand, $100 each 04:37:48 Floppy? (no jk but would be nice) 04:37:57 haha, no 05:56:09 --- quit: remexre (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 06:09:01 --- quit: iyzsong- (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in) 06:11:49 "On the stack, the cell containing the most significant part of a double-cell integer shall be above the cell containing the least significant part." 06:12:11 Do people generally rely on this behaviour? 06:13:13 I want to not do this because it would mean 32-bit integers would be in a weird mixed-endian form on the stack, and I might want to modify them by address... 06:13:39 The other alternative is to use that weird order everywhere, but I don't think I want that 06:14:46 Also my code is on my github now if people are interested, obviously it's not any more finished but have been asked multiple times about it https://github.com/Veltas/zenv 06:15:11 my Forth uses this format for doubles (64 bit) 06:15:46 Yes but do you rely on that order or stick to more high-level stuff like D>S ? 06:17:53 dont have one 06:18:30 Don't have... any use of doubles? Or don't have D>S ? 06:19:24 don't have D>S 06:19:37 oh I do use doubles when I use fixed point 06:23:10 if you're going by the standard it even mentions that pushing a 0 turns an unsigned number into a double 06:23:32 i'll try to find the page 06:24:14 it does 06:25:12 i was very confused when I first started using 'pictured numerical output' as it uses doubles also 06:26:07 I couldnt understand why it needed a 0 as well as the number i was printing 06:28:35 Okay sounds like I can't change that at all then 06:29:03 Hmm convention makes a bit more sense if you can just 0 to convert unsigned to a double 06:29:21 Unfortunate consequences elsewhere though 06:29:26 top of page 247 of forth-2012.. section D.3.2 06:35:58 veltas, where is your readme.md or readme.rst ? you're not going to leave people guessing what zenv is are you ? 06:39:20 tp: there is a description on github 06:39:38 I don't really care if people understand what it is because it's not anything right now 06:42:56 tp: There you go, added a README 06:43:31 too late, it's obvious youre a *programmer* ! 06:43:54 --- join: merkc0 joined #forth 06:44:10 oh god it shows does it? :-) 06:44:37 a bit :) 06:44:49 especially a readme.txt 06:45:31 Well every git hosting thing likes to think it understands my markdown 06:45:48 But I use stuff like pandoc markdown and it totally trashes it and people think they can click on it and have it work 06:45:55 git .... blergh 06:45:59 And I start wondering why I even bother and don't just ASCII art it all 06:46:07 might as well! 06:46:36 I'm assuming whatever you use would break my markdown as well 06:46:44 -.-.-,~ . 06:46:44 ) ( 06:46:44 |_ | 06:46:44 /(_)---`\ 06:46:44 (_ -' 06:46:45 The Forth Stack is doing ] | 06:46:46 my head in man ... | _,') 06:46:48 [_,-'_-'( 06:46:50 (_).-' \ 06:46:52 / / \ 06:47:36 well I use readme.rst on sourceforge and markdown on my Fossil scm 06:48:28 Yes Fossil has its own markdown so would do the same crap to me https://www.fossil-scm.org/home/md_rules 06:48:35 ,ine is a bit messy as cruft does build up but I like it 06:48:38 https://sourceforge.net/projects/mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc/files/ 06:48:49 I would not mind if it provided a way to disable the preview per-file, or for a project 06:49:33 SCM should have *nothing* to do with how I write my docs, and I hate that it does. It makes SCM feel like reddit. 06:49:34 I use a md2html converter that works with all the basic markdown that I use with fossil. 06:50:08 pandoc's markdown is pretty good, but extremely bloated 06:50:28 I use it at work for writing simpler technical documents 06:50:35 pandoc does convert everything to everything tho 06:51:44 Every issue with pandoc markdown is to do with the intermediate language it turns source input into 06:51:59 but I just use a 8.7kB AWK file to convert md to html, nice and simple, meets my minimum standard for readable doc 06:52:01 So this is not a 'good' thing unless you happen to want one of the other things it outputs 06:52:18 sure 06:52:52 It is bad at everything it generates except HTML, as far as I can tell, and there are better 'simple' HTML converters (including rich text clipboard features of your browser and everyone's favourite WYSIWYG crap) 06:53:16 Like pandoc -> .docx exists and is worse than pandoc -> HTML -> copy+paste into word 06:53:56 every project of mine autocreates a bunch of files, one of which is a readme.md that fossil displays as it's home page, which is for my use. But I also use this as the source of my readme.html which is included in every project tarball I release 06:54:28 this file is done with the above method 06:54:46 https://sourceforge.net/projects/mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc/files/f103-developer-image.c9ebc3e9d6.README.html 07:02:52 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 07:03:21 --- quit: merkc0 (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 07:06:11 --- quit: TCZ (Quit: Leaving) 07:15:36 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 07:32:40 tp: That file seems to have an open or something half way 07:33:36 oh ? 07:33:43 anything is possible 07:33:43 I mean it all becomes italic 07:34:23 hmm not on mine, ill grab that one again 07:36:30 it looks ok on Dillo browser, but dillo has this to say 07:36:33 HTML warning: line 1, The required DOCTYPE declaration is missing. Handling as HTML4. 07:36:33 HTML warning: line 123, Unexpected closing tag: -- expected . 07:36:33 HTML warning: line 124, is not allowed to contain 
. -- closing .
07:36:33  HTML warning: line 124, 
 is not allowed to contain 
. -- closing 
.
07:38:26  I don't mean to suck up to chromium but if a simple HTML page looks broken on chromium then it's probably worth fixing
07:39:26  Sounds like 
 is being generated when  should be
07:39:34  any error is worth fixing, thanks for pointing it out
07:39:38  Or maybe there is an unclosed 
07:39:45  More likely given what I saw
07:39:52  I'm about to look at the generated html
07:40:01  I dont use chromium
07:40:06  or chrome
07:40:35  why ? they have no ability to print to LPR
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07:40:53  I just use chromium because it gives me the least broken web experience on my laptop and doesn't use a ton of RAM like firefox
07:41:07  I'm old enough to remember when chromium had worse memory usage
07:41:16  yeah ll the browsers suck, but html sucks
07:41:27  The web sucks
07:41:30  I can't disagree
07:41:38  that's why I use dillo internally where I only have plain html
07:42:56  it's quite extraordinary, we can make microchips, put a man on the moon etc, but we still cant make a bugfree and fast browser
07:43:10  "Project objectives ... The democratization of internet information access." lol no thanks
07:48:14  Sounds like they want to invade my browser and start a 20 year war for 'oil' and have it last so long to see the price of the thing they ruined my browser for go negative
07:48:34  hah
07:58:36  found the problem, RCC_AHBENR  it's the "_" which the md2html sed script interprets as a emphasis
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08:42:26  I rememeber the chrome beta being released, and they were so proud of how quickly they could render images in their browser with javascript, something which was highly slow and unoptimised in other browsers
08:43:00  It's almost like javascipt was meant for simple interactivity and dynamic functionality on what is predominantly a rich article distribution format
08:43:12  and not rendering graphics or massive API stacks that do nothing
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09:38:02 * veltas goes to 'fix' his double stack order and realises D+ was big celldian already
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10:29:15  how to supply the parsed word to another parsing word ?
10:32:34  "Several people have proposed the syntax
10:32:34  ]] foo bar boing [[
10:32:35  as a more readable alternative to
10:32:35  postpone foo postpone bar postpone boing"   https://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/euroforth/ef98/ertl98
10:32:46  how to implement something like ]] 
10:46:03  postpone postpone maybe
10:47:40  In a loop like the word I defined the other day
10:49:30  Using execute-parsing   in  a loop like you showed, works https://github.com/forthy42/gforth/blob/5e33536b6128177e5b9b9092667b12b9657fde18/compat/execute-parsing.fs     . Can it be implemented without execute-parsing ?
10:51:38  Probably yes
10:54:43  heh, found this by chance https://github.com/forthy42/gforth/blob/5e33536b6128177e5b9b9092667b12b9657fde18/compat/macros.fs#L48
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10:56:44  Looks good
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11:06:15  Is there a minimum number of blocks that can be cached at once?
11:06:23  Other than 1
11:06:29  In Forth 2012
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16:35:23  veltas, this should be ok now ? thanks for pointing out the errors : https://sourceforge.net/projects/mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc/files/f103-developer-image.c9ebc3e9d6.README.html/download
16:36:32  tp: Yep looks fixed
16:36:41  veltas I found a Perl md2html converter, much nicer, has doc and copyright
16:37:18  there are tons of md2html converters about to choose from anyway :)
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17:35:55  veltas: Forth2012 doesn't list a minimum number of block buffers
17:36:24  good morning Forthwrights c[]
17:38:26  Less than 2 doesn't really make sense
17:45:51  If you're on a modern PC+OS you don't really need any block buffers
17:47:05  But on small systems, you'll want at least two block buffers I imagine
17:47:46  hi crc
17:48:13  hi rdrop-exit
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18:20:02  g'day Fellow Forthers
18:20:26  g'day tp
18:20:44  heyya rdrop-exit !
18:24:05  our lockdown has been extended to May 15
18:24:36  no real surprise there ?
18:25:09  it's still all a bit unknown territory
18:25:29  right
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18:28:10  my mother's 88, lives alone, and is not tech savy
18:28:32  is she in the USA ?
18:28:50  France
18:29:44  oh dear
18:29:52  turning 89 next month
18:29:56  it suskd to be old and alone atm
18:30:11  sure does
18:30:27  what some people do is set up a tablet with video etc and post it to their loved oldies
18:30:51  a tablet with 3g capability
18:31:29  and tablets are very easy to use
18:32:12  wow 89, well she probably has hardy genetics
18:32:16  we gave her a tablet, but she can't get it to work anymore
18:32:35  give her another one!
18:32:53  I think it has to do with her internet connection
18:33:10  next time set up a reverse ssh server
18:33:38  and youll tell when shes connected, maybe even do some remote admin, upload pics etc
18:34:02  the elderly and women are hardest hit during this pandemic
18:36:11  My wife was supposed to travel to Europe this month, and would have dropped in on her and delt with it, but then the pandemic happened
18:36:42  * dealt
18:46:37  Going through my old books, I'm amazed at some of the stuff I still have
18:47:06  "An Introduction to APL for the IBM PC & XT"
18:47:29  "Turbo Prolog"
18:48:47  "Porgrammer's Guide to the EGA and VGA Cards"
18:49:11  "Turbo Assembler"
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18:49:48  "Decision Tables in Software Engineering"
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18:52:05  "RS-232 Made Easy"
18:54:03  "The IBM PC Connection"
18:56:15  "a cavemans introduction to Quick Basic"
18:57:29  :))
18:58:12  that would be the one I bought
18:59:27  "Authorities are investigating a potential coronavirus cluster at a nursing home in the Blue Mountains, west of Sydney."
18:59:39  Coronavirus comes in "clusters" now ??
19:00:23  I can see it, youre out walking one evening with your wife when she screams and points up at a tree where she can see a Coronavirus Cluster growing on a limb
19:00:57  as long as it's now using dowsing https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/17/iran_coronavirus_detector/
19:01:03  s/now/not/
19:01:32  wow
19:02:48  gahh, Internet scammers must be making a fortune these days
19:03:05  they will view the Coronavirus as a goldmine
19:03:14  yeah
19:03:29  miracle mineral supplement
19:03:47  ayurveda urine medicine
19:03:47  australia gives a estimated 400 million $ to Internet scammers each year
19:04:28  next, temporary cryogenics to freeze you with the virus then thaw?
19:04:29  heh
19:04:33  a bit macabre I guess
19:05:00  yep, "200 year old secret bulgarian Yak ear recipe proven to immunise against coronavirus"
19:05:45  as long as your frozen corpiscle doesnt have to spend eternity in a canister next to Walt Disney
19:05:59  :)
19:07:17  26/04/2020|5min
19:07:17  Panic buying has contributed to the biggest month rise in retail sales on record according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics.
19:07:20  Found some good stuff at the bottom of this box:
19:07:37  "Design and Validation of Computer Protocols"
19:07:40  Or to what remains of Colonel Sanders (at least in french, with old franchises that used to be named "Colonel Sanders" rather than KFC, a common expression was "to eat some Sanders", so some kids imagined a long frozen Sanders who was so fat that they're still some left to sell)
19:07:57  phadthai, hehe
19:07:59  "Writing Interactive Compilers and Interpreters"
19:08:10  s/they're/there's/
19:08:20  rdrop-exit, I bet the silverfish eating those old books are highly IT educated now
19:09:06  I store the old stuff in plastic bins, so far no vermin
19:09:27  just endless mold ?
19:09:54  Some yellowing on the ones printed on high acid content paper
19:10:38  oh yeah
19:14:33  err sorry the expression was actually "to eat some colonel", but the result is the same heh
19:14:39  "An interactive compiler is one where the user communicates directly with the computer both when he is typing hi program and when he is running it. The communications has all the immediacy of human conversation"
19:14:52  hey guys
19:15:01  hey tabemann 
19:15:07  hi tabemann
19:15:19  hello
19:17:02  "you should always design your interactive compiler to be incremental."
19:18:18  Cool book from 1979
19:19:25  nice... in a way, at the epoch, it was serious business too, mil and space
19:19:53  and central databases
19:21:00  precious timesharing seconds
19:22:06  "The ultimate in internal program conciseness is not, however, the machine code right at the end of the slide. It is instead, an 'ideal machine code' for running the source language. The ideal machine code has just the operations the source language needs, and these are encoded in the most concise way -- the more frequently used needing fewer bits than the less frequently used."
19:23:17  "Make sure your internal language is suitable for incremental editing."
19:24:16  that reminds me of how hashforth supports far denser code than zeptoforth
19:25:05  because zeptoforth compiled calls can often be 10 bytes in size, while hashforth compiled calls can be 1 to 2 bytes
19:25:22  reminds me of Chuck's Huffman encoded stuff
19:26:10  of course zeptoforth compiled code can be made more efficient than that through inlining
19:26:23  and even if inlining doesn't make it smaller it can still make it faster
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19:28:40  "We call the two machines the 'compiling machine' and the 'object machine'. If these two machines are coupled together in a smooth network it need not be apparent to the user that two separate machines are involved".
19:32:06  (i.e. interactive cross-compilation)
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19:34:51  "The best way to conquer the virgin machine [...] The whole task can be simplified if the VIRGINL compiler is itself written in VIRGINL, This is a classic and intellectually pleasing exercise called 'bootstrapping'. It was first popularized by NELLIAC (Halstead, 1962)"
19:35:54  Ok, this book is going on my reread pile :)
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19:39:48  rdrop-exit, does it detail how to run and lag the steam pipes from the boiler to the Eniac building ?
19:42:12  Check it out, he also talks about JIT years before the term existed, he calls it "Dynamic Compiling"
19:43:20  "When the program is run, as each internal statement is executed for the first time, it is translated into the lower-level language, which we assume is machine-code."
19:45:37  His section on micro-programming and interpreters, makes me think of the current trend to "reconfigurable computing" with FPGAs.
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19:49:43  "Such machines open up a fascinating possiblity for the compiler writer. He can design an ideal internal language, and then microprogram his computer to execute this internal language. The microprogram would be brought into play whenever it was desired to run a user's program. The 'ideal' internal language could be ideal for ease of translation (and perhaps re-creation), ideal for speed of execution, 
19:49:49  ideal for conciseness, or perhaps some combination of these."
19:50:44  So much of IT today is coming up with new buzzwords for old ideas
19:51:26  yeah even more modern concepts are rebranded over and over by startups
19:53:00  also hard to not reinvent an already patented thing
19:54:28  right
19:56:00  There's very little that's actually novel, usually the economic tradeoffs change and old forgotten techniques become relevant again
19:56:29  with a completely new buzzword
19:58:44  someone was talking about putting an FPGA on PC motherboards so you could reconfigure it per program to get better performance
19:59:44  Intel is putting an x86 and FPGA on the same chip with high speed link between them
20:00:03  Forget what they called it
20:01:32  neat
20:01:56  someone on the amp hour podcast was talking about the FPGAs with an ARM A9 built in. sounds amazing
20:02:49  some of those cost $1,000+ so the guest bought one on ebay someone had desoldered and reballed and it actually worked
20:02:57  The combination of general purpose CPUS with FPGAs is ideal
20:03:21  bought for like $80
20:04:05  yep. seems like you have to put some kind of softcore on there anyway for a lot of things
20:04:26  The simple administrative stuff can be done on the general purpose CPU, and the high performance inner loop stuff on the FPGA
20:05:22  Same concept as with an OS, you have your shell for admin stuff, and your compiled programs 
20:09:25  makes you wonder what high performance stuff you cant do with the A9 though :P
20:11:10  reminds me of a funny quote
20:11:11  "Software? Software? There isn't any software! Only different internal states of hardware.
20:11:14  It's all hardware! It's a shame programmers don't grok that better."
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20:20:26  LOL
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