00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.04.09 00:04:25 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 00:10:41 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 00:42:14 crest, al the registers take up a bit too much space, pls have a look here and advise which can be left out ? http://dpaste.com/28Z041Z 00:42:46 Hello everyone 00:43:00 heya mtsd! 00:44:11 * tpbsd is waiting for his delivery of Scandinavian Eels from the supermarket atm 00:44:31 Ohh, I'll have to look into that :) 00:44:53 hahah 00:45:09 Is it Eel season now? I must find out. Export rules? Quarantines? 00:45:11 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 00:45:57 I have seen the TV show about australian border controls. They seem very strict when it comes to food items ;) 00:46:29 ok, it's not really Scandinavian Eels, it's more like 'fish fingers' and some frozen Barramundi 00:46:47 mtsd, it's harder atm because of CoV-19 00:47:06 I havent been out in 14 days + and so have to rely on deliveries 00:47:36 We have been shopping for some elderly neighbours here 00:47:42 nice! 00:47:59 I'm the elderly neighbour around here 00:48:16 Would send you some stuff too, if I knew how 00:48:23 except I have no neighbours, I live in a factory surrounded by my workshop gear 00:48:43 mtsd, thats kind of you, Id do the same 00:49:01 Forthers have to stick together 00:49:22 thats right as there are only 42 of us! 00:49:49 and a loss off even one is acutely felt! 00:50:58 Yes, each one is a large part of the collective 00:51:02 Greetings everyone. 00:51:10 Hello DKordic 00:51:12 Nice to see You here as well mtsd. 00:51:26 You too! :) 00:51:34 I'm putting together a update to my old Forth powered STM32F103C8 "developers" binary for 'blue pill users', if the C crowd saw how easy it is, theyd cry! 00:52:34 g'day DKordic 00:52:45 That may be why they are often so hostile. They see how easy it is and suddenly realize all that's wrong with C ;) 00:53:02 mtsd, "We are the Forth, resistance is futile" ? 00:53:14 haha, yes 00:54:45 mtsd, lol, they sure hate Forth for some deep reason, even thos who have never actually tried or used it 00:55:26 i dont actually care, less users mean less big commercial interest to me 00:56:07 I know it's irellevant to those that build their own forth, but I'm not up to that yet 00:57:23 so Id have commercial intrests to start buying up forths 00:57:30 have = hate 00:58:37 The interesting things are usually found away from the mainstream 00:58:59 so true 00:59:32 away from the 'mundainstream' you mean ? 01:02:21 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01:02:31 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 01:02:59 c[] hello Forthwrights 01:03:15 g'day Zen Guru of Forth! 01:03:35 hi Forh Master Tech (tm)! 01:05:31 * DKordic is in --quiet mode. 01:05:32 Some say that C&co. programmers complain against Inherent Complexity without even realizing it. 01:05:35 taking a break from busy work around the condo 01:06:34 Hi DKordic 01:07:42 Hi rdrop-exit. 01:08:20 DKordic, not sure I understood what you mean 01:10:13 I am not sure how to reply to a greeting :3 . 01:11:03 :-)) the post about inherent complexity 01:11:29 I am not aware of it. Link please? 01:11:32 --- quit: dddddd (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 01:11:43 Some say that C&co. programmers complain against Inherent 01:11:44 Complexity without even realizing it. 01:11:50 Scratch that. 01:12:24 ok 01:15:30 --- quit: reepca (Remote host closed the connection) 01:15:42 --- join: reepca joined #forth 01:18:04 --- nick: xek_ -> xek 01:18:06 tpbsd: you can leave out dma, exti, sdio, i2c, adc1 and can. would it be possible to put everything not required by the usb serial in source files and load those on demand? 01:18:41 rdrop-exit: I heard it on YouTube... They argued that more expressive language than C add less Accidental Complexity, leaving the C programmers confused by Inherent Complexity, and they complain about ""parentheses"" or whatever. 01:20:15 crest, yes, thats what my SVD2FORTH does 01:20:51 in that case it would probably be best to leave out as much as possible 01:22:17 and i can run comptiletoflash, send a file, compiletoram to learn about some part of the chip 01:22:20 crest, thats a hard one as people dont seem too keen on using it, a few have but interest is generally low 01:23:47 people trying out forth are to lazy/stupid to follow a 10 line readme on which code to upload? 01:24:46 yeah, it's 9 lines too many 01:25:16 is this based on your sample size of one suffering from severe arduino poising? 01:25:49 expecting instant gratification and copy & pasteable code samples for everything? 01:26:38 do you know how much flash is needed for what? 01:26:49 no, just a very low download ratio of the svbd2forth tarballs 01:27:11 you load it up and type 'free' 01:27:31 or you see a 'flash used' message 01:27:45 thats what i was afraid of 01:27:59 DKordic, that sounds specious, and I would consider most uses of parantheses to be accidental complexity :) 01:31:18 tpbsd: i would most likely take a look at the timers, gpio and nvic next 01:31:42 followed by other usarts and usb 01:31:54 C has plenty of accidental complexity 01:32:08 oh yes 01:32:12 crest, I can do all the main ones and meet your goal of 30kb Flash spare 01:32:32 e.g. typedefs adding new tokens to the lexer 01:32:39 crest let me do a selection, see what you think ? I'll post it on dpaste again 01:32:48 thx 01:34:29 Also expressiveness is in the eye of the beholder, many languages considered expressive make you jump through hoops to express trivial things 01:38:26 but forth is really easy to mess up. if you attempt to write the same style of code as c it will become at best write only code 01:39:08 because c encourages you to have lots of things in scope and access them anytime you want 01:40:30 Why would you attempt to write in the same style as C, Forth is not C. 01:43:13 because a lot of new comers don't know better 01:43:58 they're exposed to infix and curly braces first 01:44:39 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: Leaving) 01:44:50 so the first thing they search for are how to define (local) variables to get stuff of the data stack 01:46:15 they don't want to unlearn enough 01:46:50 crest: http://dpaste.com/0GP5ZCN 01:47:32 tpbsd: looks good 01:48:27 crest, yah, thats doable. You get one of every peripleral at least 01:48:38 and my code will take it to about 100kB 01:48:46 inc USB etc 01:50:09 yes, well Forth is very different, if they can't approach it with a beginner's mind and put their preconceptions on hold they'll never grok Forth, their loss 01:51:35 you can take a horse to water etc... 01:52:32 rdrop-exit: it's more like teaching an old horse that some strange new liquid is drinkable 01:53:31 we see this behaviour time and time again tho, it's only human 01:59:12 the best learners keep an open mind and at least try, they're intrigued by the radical differences from what they're used to. Those who instinctively try to hammer Forth into RPN C or RPN Lisp have no interest in actually grokking Forth. 01:59:47 rpn lisp can be fun as proven by factor and joy 02:00:59 maybe so, but they won't help you grok Forth 02:01:58 they do give you new perspective on it by making things easy and interesting that won't work out of the box on most forth systems 02:03:15 that's fine, but they won't help you grok Forth, they might give you taste but that's all, just like Postscript or HP's RPL 02:04:36 In fact RPL stood for "Reverse Polish Lisp" 02:04:52 hahahah 02:05:15 i know. i had a hp50g until it was stolen with the rest of my backpack 02:05:48 I still have a 48GX and a HP-16C 02:06:02 it was a strage system but a lot more flexible than the ti92/voyage 200 02:06:06 The designers of HP calculators were big Forth fans 02:06:38 and the CAS functions were so much faster on a hp50g with the arm7 instead of the old 4bit saturn cpus 02:06:59 even if hp was afraid to touch some of the old code and emulated it instead 02:07:45 some of them attended SVFIG meetings in the 90s 02:08:16 (or 80s, my memory's not what it was) 02:09:07 the 80's sucked, nostalgia's not what it's cracked up to be! 02:09:27 I had a great time in the 80s, can't complain 02:11:26 I had a awesome time in the 70's :) 02:12:35 Me too, those were my teenage years. 02:13:32 I was a young man 17 in 1971 02:13:55 I watched the moon landing live 02:14:02 on a B&W tv 02:14:56 Me too, at my grandparents house 02:14:57 whats not properly reported was that Buzz Aldrins first words were "CHRIST!! who greased that fu***** step ???" 02:16:44 heh 02:19:59 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 02:20:10 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 02:21:39 ROFL 02:22:57 rdrop-exit, we are certainly old fossils 02:23:46 I'm turning 58 in a few days, I'm catching up with you ;-) 02:24:16 bummer dude 02:25:27 c'est la vie :) 02:27:04 rdrop-exit, your Forth and my electronics knowledge will soon be lost .... like tears in the rain 02:27:52 you people wouldn't believe the things I've seen ... BC108 transistors on fire in my crap prototypes 02:28:43 C-Beams arcing all over my shitty Capacitor Discharge Ignition units 02:29:46 tp Batty 02:30:06 hhah, good one! 02:32:56 oh well, I doubt the world will miss our arcane knowledge 02:40:45 true 02:59:02 rdrop-exit, thats probably what the builder of the "Antikythera Mechanism" said to himself when he left on a ship with it back in 200BC ... 03:00:50 I can imagine archeologists trying to make heads or tails of one of your boards :) 03:01:40 well if CoV-19 gets out of control, it might be warlords with copper swords wondering what they are 03:02:35 the tech to produce even a lame old Mega8 is well beyond all but a few 03:05:14 * tpbsd jumps for joy, my 4 day old supermarket food order just arrived at 7:30 pm, in the dark and rain 03:05:29 woohoo 03:05:55 ill miss some of that food if society ever breaks down! 03:06:23 Kahlua Coffee Liqueur for one! 03:07:18 cool :) 03:07:34 one bottle per customer :( 03:07:52 Id rather hoard that than tp ! 03:32:50 --- quit: xek (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 03:41:31 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 03:43:53 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection) 03:48:25 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 03:51:28 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 04:06:37 :-P 04:07:16 tpbsd: do you want me do some kind of testing of your blue pill images? 04:07:25 crest, I've never been drunk or even tipsy in my entire life 04:07:48 crest, no, I test them here, releasing a broken image is bad Karma! 04:08:22 crest, this Kahlua Coffee Liqueur is the first alcohol Ive had in probably 6 years 04:08:51 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 04:09:12 I figure with my age and pre conditions, now is a good time to enjoy some small amounts of alcohol 04:09:30 before CoV-19 takes that possibility from me 04:10:38 crest, I'll probably have the image on my website in 24 hrs, no promises tho, and I'll let you know here when I put it up 04:10:55 tpbsd: thx 04:11:06 pleasure 04:12:02 I've finished all the improvent migrations and it's looking good, but it's 9:11 pm here so zzz coming up in a couple of hours 04:12:15 Ill have a blinky there as well 04:12:40 just for users to make sure it's working 04:18:23 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 04:23:01 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 04:29:55 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 04:47:53 : zzz ( -- ) lowpower& multitask ; 04:48:24 does it work ? 04:49:50 what? 04:50:02 : zzz ( -- ) lowpower& multitask ; 04:50:18 it would save a little power with multitask.txt 04:50:27 maybe 04:50:37 multitask.txt includes a sample lowpower task 04:51:16 more likely it will just lose terminal characters on wakeup 04:51:26 didn't happen to me 04:51:36 I havnet played with the F103 much as Im not a fan 04:51:43 oh cool 04:51:43 but maybe because it was never the only runnable task 04:51:53 was the power usage reduced ? 04:52:13 i had no way to measure 04:52:29 one easy way to get a rough indication is a $5 USB power monitor 04:54:14 even at peak power consumption a f103 doesn't consume much power compared what's available from usb charger 04:54:36 of course this changes drastically if you switch to battery power 04:54:52 or increase the clock speed 04:55:29 how can you overclock a stm32f103 without running into problems? 04:57:18 easy 04:57:36 the F103 is rated for 75Mhz anyway 04:58:08 I overclock my F051 to 75 MHz because I'm so used to that speed now after building the F103 diags 04:58:50 but a F051 will run at 104MHz 12 months without problems, which is what I did to my first test ubit which is still in use 04:59:05 the power usage goes up a lot tho 04:59:19 3mA at 8 MHz 04:59:35 30 Ma at 104MHz 04:59:38 mA 04:59:55 but it's 12x faster 04:59:58 brb 05:34:17 but what about the peripherals? 05:34:25 does the ADC still produce meaningful results? 05:35:06 i've seen an atmega644p run at 32mhz @ 6.5V 05:35:35 even faster directly from a 9V battery (the genius in question bypassed the voltage regulator by accident) 05:36:00 the 9V permanently damaged the adc 05:36:46 afterward is had about a 4bit usable resolution if you applied the right bias to get intos its new "operating range" 05:36:53 the F103 is rated for 75Mhz and everything works at that speed, the ADC has it's own clock, so it works fine at 104MHz on the 48 MHz rated f051 05:37:23 one thing that wont work is the flash write if the clock is too fast 05:38:07 the bluepill has a 8mhz quartz and i run it at 72mhz which is fast enough 05:38:17 on the 48 MHz rated F051 the flash write gets a bit iffy above 75 Mhz but reading it at 104MHz is no problem 05:38:32 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 05:38:42 how hard is it to reduce to change clock speeds? 05:39:05 with the F051 and the F103 at 75 MHz clock, the F103 is on average 3.5 - 5.3 times faster than the F051 05:39:15 but why bother if there are plenty of faster chips 05:39:18 I dont know, Ive never reduced it 05:39:37 a excellent question, the answer for me is simple 05:39:39 for a real product you don't want to overclock for reliablity reasons 05:40:06 and for most hobbist projects the time lost to hardware glitches isn't worth the few bucks for a fast chip 05:40:06 sure, but for DEVELOPMENT I want as fast as possible to reduce loading and compiling time 05:40:48 but isn't it easier to just reorganize your source code? 05:41:01 the actual product will run at whatever speed is needed but always withing the STM specs, which are *really* conservative anyway 05:41:11 sure you could use 1kB or so as write buffer for the compiler 05:41:28 my source code is the same regardless of speed 05:41:30 compile code, clock down the core, write the buffer to flash and overclock again 05:41:59 I could, but at 75Mhz the F051 flash is fine 05:42:01 could the MPU be abused for this? 05:42:11 absolutely 05:42:13 to map ram over some of the flash? 05:42:31 I has seriously abused the MCU for periods of a year with no reliability issues 05:42:52 good to know that they can stand some abuse 05:42:57 well I dont have much ram, but I do have a lot of flash (64kB) 05:43:00 i already fried one of my bluepill boards 05:43:06 they withstand terrible abuse 05:43:28 it has to have some kind of short i can't find because the stm32f103 gets very hot 05:43:38 as in to hot to comfortably touch 05:43:46 Ive really fried a couple of the chips soldering them and applying hot air 05:44:00 but those chips are still in use 05:44:18 hmm, you havent applied reverse polarity ? 05:44:30 hard to do via usb 05:44:38 or you have 5v going into a 3.3v pin ? 05:44:54 but i connected the serial adapter and blue pill to different powered hubs 05:45:12 even when clocking a F051 at 104 Mhz it's still room temperature at the chip 05:45:12 without connecting the ground (yes i'm an idiot) 05:45:20 it happens 05:45:37 I often run my boards of two suplies 05:45:44 just depends 05:45:55 but you should have a common ground for serial 05:46:05 the f103 I'm building atm has power from the usb and serial applied at the same time 05:46:22 maybe my monitor's hub and the desktop front usb have slightly different ground levels 05:46:42 probably not enuf to create the problem you have 05:47:13 as usual one needs a voltmeter or scope for such things 05:47:21 no i suspect i bend or broke something 05:47:36 there is short according to my multimeter 05:47:41 you can guess with software but you cant guess with hardware, you must measure 05:47:41 and the blinky still runs 05:47:51 but i can no longer get a usb serial connection 05:48:02 so something wrong there 05:48:06 or reflash it via serial 05:48:10 is that on one of your bluepills ? 05:48:35 yes and it happend right after i dropped it an retrieved it by forcefully pulling on the usb cable 05:48:49 not how you should treat electronics 05:49:09 the usb serial adapter is fried as well 05:49:20 I'm a tech, hardware is tough or it's crap top me 05:49:26 they both dropped between my desktop and home server 05:49:52 one problem with the blue pills was the usb sockets were very fragile 05:49:53 and probably got 5V to some non 5V tolerant pin or even 3.3V Vcc 05:50:12 probably the usb cosket is twisted 05:50:12 at least it doesn't draw enough power to cause the host to complain 05:50:27 maybe one pin is high resistence 05:50:46 just toss it and use the remaining four 05:50:55 id have a gool look all around the usb socket with a microscope and compare it to a good board 05:51:06 ... or just toss it 05:51:17 but it sounds like you have a usb socket fault to me 05:51:20 all i have at the moment is a 2x zoom on my mobile 05:51:48 magnifying glass, usb microscope ? 05:51:58 base of coke bottle .... 05:51:58 not at home 05:52:08 trained ants 05:52:21 i just tossed it away and consider it a 3€ reminder to be more careful next time 05:52:47 there is always a way, what will you do when the zombie apocalypse comes if you cant solve that simple problem ? 05:53:26 I used to repair $1000 commercial games boards with a chisel, other tech were aghast 05:53:46 electronics is tough, if it isnt ... it's crap 05:56:11 the blue pill board is cheap china crap 05:56:22 exactly 05:56:44 they have a number of known faults, many are listed on my 'blue pill' rant 05:56:54 i've read your rant 05:57:35 it's not much of a rant I know, Im far too relaxed and peaceful to ever be a good ranter 05:57:41 but I try 05:58:24 sadly china really is the home of counterfeit crap 05:58:52 it's just pathetic that they assume that westerners after buying crap once, will do it again and again 05:59:04 maybe arduino users will ... ;-) 06:00:04 they do because it lowers the start up costs 06:00:16 in the long term its probably more expensive 06:00:57 assuming that you keep at it and don't switch to better suppliers 06:01:02 I'm so old I will never understand it, I see any MCU priced at $20 as incredibly cheap 06:01:28 time is the one invaluable comoddity for us all 06:01:40 you save time as well 06:01:52 if you stay within the crappy arduino ide 06:01:58 and frigging around with a clone STM32F103 is to my mind, insane 06:02:06 do you ? 06:02:13 of course not 06:02:22 i tried it once and refuse to touch it again 06:02:31 heheh 06:02:56 it just runs c code through a c++ compiler with a bunch of broken header files 06:03:23 to hide some of C's many annoying properties from first time programmers 06:03:36 it's probably better than a basic stamp, but not by much 06:03:37 the whole premise is flawed, bit I was around when Arduino first came out, I learnt embedded in 1974 06:04:21 people forget ( or never knew) that arduino was initially a intro edu thing in Italy 06:04:26 my largest problem with arduino is that it limits the user to what the arduino developers envisioned 06:04:47 sure you can write a blinky in 10 minutes 06:05:02 then it was produced and advertised for 'artists' with no electronics or programming experience to quickly make projects 06:05:19 and it succeeded in that 06:05:27 such as lighting for a ice sculpture 06:05:44 sure, it was fantastic for that 06:05:58 i've seen lots of people who wouldn't know where to start with avr-gcc, avrdude and avr libc up and running 06:06:19 with arduino in minutes 06:06:22 absolutely 06:06:44 they started with an example programm and just changed things until it did what they wanted 06:06:45 without arduino there would be little embedded today 06:07:02 as real embedded takes a few years to get comfortable with 06:07:09 and above that there are all the $fruit pi boards 06:07:18 it's hard, with many 'hard yards' r`equired 06:07:55 allowing you to waste on of your 2-4 cores on bitbanning your gpio pins in python 06:07:58 yeah, the hobby market is now a real income earner for many manufacturers 06:08:08 erk 06:08:21 python is utterly unsuitable for embedded 06:08:30 as is lua, elisp etc 06:08:44 but if you throw a 1GHz out out order core at it 06:08:55 move all interrupts to the remaining cores 06:09:12 but the hobbyists dont know that and the sellers dont tell them, after all for a ice sculpture light it's probably ok 06:09:13 and mask it in the linux scheduler you get the same latency and jitter as cheap 8bit controller 06:09:23 its a total waste of resources 06:09:56 the main problem is the time a GC takes to do it's job 06:11:05 people using micropython or curcuitpython wonder what the hell is running at 10kz and intefering with their system 06:11:15 and it's the GC 06:11:56 yes but they don't care 06:12:17 well some do, most dont 06:12:31 but thats hobby 'embedded' for ya 06:12:58 I mean Ive made 10ee99 mistakes in my career, one learns and improves 06:14:01 I have one device that reads a pot, checks the pot is working properly and if it is, it then controls the speed and direction of a wheelchair 06:14:30 if the pot fails it brings the wheelchair motor to a fast but controlled stop 06:15:37 now as there is a person in that chair all care must be taken, we cant have it suddenly launch off across a main highway in front of a 40 wheeler 06:15:53 that never ends well ... 06:17:18 I remember one programmer who came down with some debilitating disease developed a speech controlled wheelchair, had a friend build it and then he had excellent mobility for the rest of his short life 06:17:26 --- quit: cartwright (Remote host closed the connection) 06:17:28 it used arduinos etc 06:17:39 .. then he passed away 06:18:27 his friend took down the website and the source which was meant to be available for others by the author was taken off line 06:19:40 after reading about it I contacted his friend and offered to look into it so others in that situation (immobile and not long to live) might be able to use it to get some dignity in the time they had left 06:20:42 hid friend said hed taken legal advice whih said he could be sued and lose everything if someone hurt themselves using this gear/software so it would never be available 06:20:53 and that was that 06:22:18 --- join: cartwright joined #forth 06:28:08 I wonder if one of those generic No Warranty/Use at your own risk things would make a difference 06:28:50 I always wonder why people feel compelled to add those to things like open source text editors 06:44:13 hey guys 06:45:09 it's just standard boilerplate 06:51:17 as real embedded takes a few years to get comfortable with < aside from having a very short stint years ago, all my embedded experience has been essentially since nov 2019, and that is only if one considers implementation time, as opposed to time actually working the bugs out, which is more recent 06:54:27 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 06:57:30 tpbsd: even 2clause bsd and mit license protect the author/creator 06:57:56 at least in germany just has to make sure that he doesn't claim to create a proper medical device 06:58:11 but that doesn't protect him from some asshole suing him 06:58:26 I was thinking the whole "medical device" thing is probably the issue 06:58:42 it just gives him an excellent chance to will the case in the end 06:59:17 but to reach that point he has to defend himself which can get very expensive in most jurisdictions 07:00:13 okay, time to go to work (which isn't far, since now I'm working from home thanks to the coronavirus) 07:00:52 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 07:02:08 tabemann: i have the same problem 07:02:43 it can get hard to keep stuff especially if you're a programmer or sysadmin 07:03:06 with hobby projects e.g. try a new vpn or routing daemon 07:07:37 --- quit: iyzsong (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 07:09:26 okay, timem to work for real now 07:09:29 see ya later 08:12:49 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 08:22:26 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 09:19:21 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 09:19:58 --- quit: cartwright (Remote host closed the connection) 09:22:40 --- join: cartwright joined #forth 09:24:46 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Remote host closed the connection) 10:09:27 --- join: Keshl_ joined #forth 10:09:46 --- quit: Keshl (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 10:33:00 --- quit: Keshl_ (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 11:05:49 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 11:27:36 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 11:33:32 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 12:01:33 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 12:57:19 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 13:08:13 --- nick: tpbsd -> tp 13:38:44 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 13:50:57 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 13:53:30 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 14:04:01 --- quit: cartwright (Quit: WeeChat 2.5) 14:06:26 --- join: cantstanya joined #forth 15:41:15 wtf https://hackaday.com/2016/10/27/basic-interpreter-hidden-in-esp32-silicon/ 15:41:26 what is wrong with those people? 15:42:25 which people, hackaday or Esperif ? 15:42:32 esperif 15:42:39 (in this case) 15:42:43 hehe 15:43:03 why is it wrong ? 15:43:25 "It looks like whatever boot ROM the ESP32 has inside it is testing for a high voltage on GPIO 12. Don’t ask us." 15:43:46 Basic is very small so it can fit in a small rom 15:43:56 yes so could a minimal forth system 15:44:08 but to leave it as easteregg? 15:44:11 could be but Forth isnt popular 15:44:46 neither is basic these days but it is more approachable 15:44:52 the ibm PC had basic in rom, they could have used Forth there as well 15:45:32 I think Basic dissolves brains, but thats only my personal opinion 15:45:56 it does the only way out is assembler 15:46:20 once you learned some assembler there is a way out 15:46:37 and the basic lacks peek and poke 15:46:45 hey guys 15:46:57 oh so it does work 15:47:03 in 1990 I got a job rebuilding two Dynapert commercial DIP pick and place machines 15:47:46 these machines cost around 200K each and they were new, but had sat on the Singapore docks for a few months and badly rusted 15:48:35 so I had to dismantle them, they were huge and weighed probably a ton each 15:48:56 it would be really nice to see a forth on the gigatron that avoids the existing interpreter but there aren't enough hours in the day for that 15:48:58 the hardened slides were rusted etc 15:49:27 why did the maschines fall into disrepair? 15:50:10 along the way I found I also needed to replace the paper tape reader/teletype with a keyboard so I made up a 8085 BASIC kit to find the codes and make a code converter 15:50:38 no, they sat in crates for months on the Singapore Docks and rusted because of salt air 15:51:23 * tabemann put a thing on zeptoforth up on hackaday.io 15:51:25 so I learnt Basic, made up the hardware, cracked the codes, built the converter, repaired the machines and demonstrated them running to the owner 15:51:48 so all that was good, and I moved on to other things 15:52:21 around 1993 I attempted to learn C and failed badly 15:52:47 the lack of a free C didnt help, but basically my brain had been ruined by Basic 15:53:07 * tabemann somehow escaped BASIC brain damage 15:53:37 so I spent the next year actively trying to avoid thinking about Basic, then Learned Pascal, after that C was dead easy 15:53:38 * tabemann 's first machine was an Apple //e, with Applesoft BASIC in the ROM 15:53:56 tabemann, you have more specialised 'programmer neurons' than I :) 15:54:03 lol 15:54:10 tabemann, re hackaday, awesome 15:54:42 so I had to 'unlearn' basic, then learn Pascal before I could grok C 15:54:58 now of course I cant see what the problem was 15:55:18 I always disliked BASIC because it wasn't procedural 15:55:27 the lack of a GOTO in C was much of my problem 15:55:38 even as a 3rd grader I liked LOGO better because it had actual functions 15:55:56 I had taught myself the worst possible programming language without realising it 15:57:17 anyone unfortunate enough to have read just one of my Basic programs back then would have immediately committed suicide rather than live with the knowledge of what they had just seen 15:58:03 the really sad part is that Forth was available at the time but I had no knowledge of it 15:58:17 I learned Forth in high school 15:58:41 I just stumbled across Basic because Intel made a 8051 kit with onboard basic 15:58:44 --- quit: reepca (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:59:02 tabemann, when I was in high school, there were no computers 15:59:07 the three main languages I used at the time were Python, Forth, C, and OCaml 15:59:18 --- join: reepca joined #forth 15:59:46 I left highschool in 1970 I think 16:00:26 sure there were computers in the world, they just werent in highschools or homes back them 16:00:46 lol - I have three tasks running on my F407 board, one that is a two-LED blinky, one that outputs an "*" every half-second, and one for the REPL, just chugging away 16:00:49 mainly being timeshare Unix mainframes 16:01:28 wow, thats cool, I'll have to try that after I finish the updated 'bluepill developers edition' 16:01:54 my dad took a computing class in high school around then - they would create card decks, then send them off to some computer offsite, and then get cards back like the next week or so 16:02:28 of course things started improving rapidly in the 70's. in 1974 I had my first taste of a 'computer' in embedded 16:02:54 paper tape, teletype, on a 16 bit National Semi PACE 16:02:55 tp: and the two LED blinky is really an event scheduler executing two different "actions" at set times 16:03:29 wow, tabemann your Forth spreads as fast as the Coronavirus! 16:03:51 perhaps you should have called it "Coronaforth" ? 16:03:56 lol 16:04:19 well that'd be rather prescient, since I started work on it last november 16:04:43 on your ARM version ? 16:04:50 yeah 16:04:57 wow, how time flies 16:05:11 I know 16:05:45 it gets worse tho, at 96 a year seems like it's only 3 months long I was told 16:06:03 ugh 16:06:54 I still can't believe that it's been 17 years since I graduated high school 16:07:04 Iknew a guy with awesome genetics, at 91 he would clean the leaves out of his house roof gutter by himself, he had a 60 year old girlfriend, we called him a 'cradle snatcher' 16:07:22 lol 16:07:45 now the jokes on me as a 60 year old GF would be 6 years younger than me 16:09:49 I should dig out the datasheet for the nRF52840 and see how it differs from that for the nRF52832 16:10:04 not by much 16:10:10 from a Forth POV 16:10:15 yeah, that's what I thought 16:10:26 just the USART iirc 16:10:57 one thing is that I liked the design of the nRF52832 better than the STM MCUs 16:10:59 we helped that guy port Mecrisp-Stellaris to it and nothing much was involved 16:11:05 see .. ! 16:11:20 very simple and straightforward 16:11:24 nordic make awesome chips 16:11:40 enabling an interrupt related to the USART was just one bit setting 16:11:50 simple ans straightforward with WIRELESS! 16:12:28 yeah, stm32 is a bit of a hodge podge of non optomised peripherals 16:12:34 the problem is I don't know what I'd use the wireless for 16:12:56 haahh, I'm sure some applications will present themselves 16:13:27 how about a IR temp sensor at head height on your front door ? 16:13:38 lol 16:14:26 optomised to alarm at 37.5 to 38.3 degrees C ? 16:14:33 (fever) 16:14:50 lol 16:16:23 powered by a 9v battery, and woken up with any passive IR 16:17:27 lol, and a sign, "to ring doorbell, please place forhead against IR sensor" 16:18:12 a microswitch waked the device which uses a medical grade IR sensor from a thermometer 16:19:07 a LCD could display the temperature and advise the doorbell will not be rung and seek immediate medical attention etc 16:19:48 .. there, Ive just told everyone here how to become a millionaire ! 16:19:48 damn, it's snowing here - and it was in the 70's two days ago 16:20:03 wow 16:20:32 22,37 C 16:20:32 72,49 F here 16:20:35 at my desk 16:20:50 I'm so cool I may beed a warm jumper soon 16:20:54 need 16:21:13 that's a much more reasonable of a temperature than those you were talking about last winter (your summer) 16:28:45 it sure is but it's a anomaly 16:29:00 our winter isnt yet here 16:29:50 what's winter like in australia? 16:30:19 mild 16:30:30 no snow or ice 16:56:27 back 16:56:38 it turns out that very little needed to change for the port 16:56:49 exactly 16:56:58 the only real changes were the RAM and flash sizes, and the way interrupts were configured for the UART 16:57:18 want your name on he Mecrisp-Stellaris contributors page in every release ? 16:57:32 I'm trying to see if there's anything I need to change w.r.t. talking to the PC 16:57:40 just email matthias a version that runs on that chip 16:57:44 i.e. talking over USB 16:58:17 ie port the Mecrisp-Stellaris version to that chip 16:58:33 wait, have to check one last thing w.r.t. erasing flash 16:59:04 the guy we helped just vanished, he didnt bother to supply his port 17:00:10 I think he was only interestd because he wanted a way to update his python versions over the air 17:00:19 and only Forth could do that 17:00:38 once he had his problem sorted he was gone 17:01:27 tabemann, what two nordic boards did you get ? 17:01:39 back 17:01:58 I only got one board 17:02:02 the nRF52840 17:02:12 I ported to the nRF52832, but never tested it 17:02:15 ah 17:02:29 as the only purpose of that port was to facilitate a port to the nRF52840 17:02:50 bit hard to test with no board 17:02:56 someone can still try it if they want 17:03:04 good pint 17:03:07 point 17:03:24 once you get a following people will try 17:03:41 --- join: Keshl joined #forth 17:04:07 matthias has the right approach tho, he makes people who cry for help actually make some effort first 17:04:35 becase sadly some are like that peter anonymous guy who do nothing and expect everything 17:04:44 hence just timewasters 17:05:24 and the first thing to do if someone wants a port is aske them to send you a board, no board, no interest 17:05:44 if no board, I'd say they have to implement it themselves 17:06:06 yeah 17:06:29 because I'm not going to just buy any old board because you want me to implement it for you 17:06:43 matthias advises that a port is mostly a matter of grabbing the closest chip supported by Mecrisp-Stellaris and changing the USART 17:06:48 if you want me to implement it for you, at least go out and get the damn board and send me it 17:06:54 exactly 17:07:12 even then thats damn cheap considering how cheap most boards are 17:07:27 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 17:07:31 like I think I'm already done with my nRF52840 port, aside from figuring out which pins to use 17:07:40 I mean send you a $20 board and expect you to spend a week on it ? 17:08:10 just ignore the time wsters 17:08:23 Ive learnt a lot trying to help Mecrisp-Stellaris users 17:08:33 wow, thats fast! 17:10:46 I already have an nRF52832 port 17:10:59 which was itself based heavily off the nRF52832 port of Mecrisp-Stellaris 17:11:44 the port was really just going through the code and checking whether anything that changed, which turned out to be a minor change in how interrupts are implemented for the UART 17:12:01 of course, you just changed the name from "Mecrisp-Stellaris" to "Zeptoforth" 17:12:23 thats what most people do thesedays 17:12:35 ;-) 17:12:56 it wasn't that simple - when I did my nRF52832 port I had to rework the flash system to allow flashing units smaller than aligned words 17:14:05 nice 17:14:22 what was the nordic flash controller like to work with ? 17:33:42 --- nick: cantstanya -> Oxford 17:34:26 --- nick: Oxford -> frank 17:34:32 --- nick: frank -> cartwright 17:34:48 --- nick: cartwright -> cantstanya 18:00:09 --- quit: Croran (Remote host closed the connection) 18:06:54 --- join: Croran joined #forth 18:24:14 back 18:24:24 tp: it was quite simple 18:24:54 essentially set one bit to enable writing to flash, then just write to the target word, then unset the bit 18:25:18 wait 18:25:28 that's writing to flash 18:25:39 erasing flash is also simple 18:26:10 write to one bit to enable erasing flash, then write the address of the block of memory to erase to a register, then unset the bit 18:26:19 note that both of these have ready-wait loops too 18:32:17 nice 18:36:08 ugh ugh ughitty ugh 18:36:22 it turns out that programming over USB requires a preprogrammed bootloader 18:36:47 which of course zeptoforth won't be compatible with 18:37:08 otherwise you have to use the headers on the board itself 18:46:41 --- join: boru` joined #forth 18:46:44 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 18:46:47 --- nick: boru` -> boru 19:13:42 no standard bootloader present ? 19:14:01 the SWD headers to a disco board ? 19:15:48 there is a bootloader which comes with the board 19:15:58 but ... 19:16:03 the problem is that zeptoforth requires taking up the vectors 19:16:16 while the bootloader requires that it take up the vectors 19:16:45 what does that mean ? 19:16:47 and the bootloader is designed to work with proprietary tools 19:16:52 the exception vectors 19:17:05 configuring the vectors ? 19:18:07 as you say, I could use one of my disco boards to program the board via the SWD header on the board 19:18:24 but the problem is that that require soldering 19:18:35 and pretty fine soldering at that 19:19:20 nah, it's std header pins, you can do it! 19:19:33 they're not pins 19:19:40 they're just pads 19:20:01 theyre "half holes' which are actually easier to solder 19:20:11 trust me here ... 19:20:21 if they were pins I'd just buy some dupont jumpers 19:20:42 i mean theyre half holes meant to take std 0.1" pin headers 19:21:00 no, they're not that 19:21:07 they save a bit of pcb also, hence lowering the cost to the manuf 19:21:09 and I know because I've got the board right here with me 19:21:23 is yours the same as the pics I posted the otehr day ? 19:21:37 can you post a link to a pic of yours ? 19:21:48 the pads are on the bottom of the board, not the half-holes on the edges 19:21:58 oh! 19:22:29 are those pads blind, ie no hole ? 19:22:35 yes 19:22:46 ouch 19:22:55 and very small ? 19:23:04 they're wide but thin 19:23:16 like edge connectors ? 19:23:37 except they're not on the edge of anything 19:25:58 not like this one ? 19:26:01 https://www.cnx-software.com/2018/07/05/nrf52840-usb-dongle-bluetooth-5-thread-zigbee-802-15-4-ant/ 19:27:49 or like this https://www.nordicsemi.com/Software-and-tools/Development-Kits/nRF52840-Dongle ? 19:28:46 https://media.digikey.com/Photos/Nordic%20Semiconductor%20ASA/NRF52840-DONGLE.JPG or this one ? 19:29:04 "P1" is the pads 19:29:55 I cant find a board like the one you have described 19:30:32 no that's it 19:31:22 ahh I see what youre saying 19:31:26 the box marked P1 is it 19:31:44 you shouldnt need to connect to those small pads, theyre only there for testing at the factory 19:32:05 no WAY anyone needs to solder to them 19:32:29 so how do you connect to it with SWD then? 19:34:16 well for a start you have DFU mode via they USB, that will work to flash your binary 19:35:35 The nRF52840 Dongle has 15 GPIOs in addition to the ground, power, and SWD connections along the 19:35:35 castellated edges. 19:35:57 ah 19:36:20 The castellated edge holes have a pitch of 0.1 inches (2.54 mm) and a row spacing of 0.6 inches (15.24 19:36:21 mm)2, making it suitable for stripboard connection. Test points for additional nine GPIOs are available on 19:36:21 the back side of the circuit board, leaving a total of 24 GPIOs accessible. 19:39:41 I know how to work with breadboard, now I need to learn how to use stripboard 19:40:26 that seems more doable for me than soldering 19:41:11 https://community.platformio.org/uploads/default/optimized/2X/4/4e3c21ebdb7306cd3f0d67c6090a2f79cb1ce17c_2_688x750.jpeg 19:41:46 i think that shows the pins, youre also correct about the signals being on P1 19:42:10 not having a connector on P1 and a cable supplied is criminal imho 19:42:28 how the *uck are users supposed to use this thing 19:42:47 I guess that $10 boards are for the well equipped electronics tech 19:43:05 the $100 board is for programmers .. :) 19:43:24 my soldering iron was $550 19:43:56 of course there are much cheaper irons 19:47:11 back 19:48:20 at least they should have put through holes for P1 19:48:36 because I could see myself soldering a male dupont cable into a through hole 19:48:54 (I have a soldering iron somewhere around here) 19:49:25 gees I think youre right 19:49:39 the doc info is just pathetic 19:49:57 youll have to use DFU to flash the board 19:50:30 and no GDB until you can connect to that poxy P1 19:50:31 and I'll have to figure out some means to get around not having direct access to exception vectors 19:50:40 they make a nice expensive cable I think 19:50:57 I'm glad I didn't spend any more than 10 bucks on this 19:51:00 one with 'pogo pins' 19:51:11 well it's always been $10 19:51:22 the $100 version has the right connectors :P 19:52:18 I'm sufficiently pissed off that I'm not going to buy that $100 board out of spite even though, technically speaking, I can afford it, especially since I'm not spending any other money thanks to this virus 19:52:32 honestly tabemann I just dont get it 19:53:09 what did a arnold palmer coffee cost you in the pre covid-19 days when you had coffee shops ? 19:53:23 like about $5 19:53:50 I bet you spend $5 on a coffee then bitch endlessly about a complex board with a M4 and wireless for $10 19:54:09 I'm old, pleas eignore my r`ant 19:54:51 coffee is so expensive here that most Americans wont pay for one 19:54:54 lol 19:55:16 part of it is also that I think that the expensive Nordic boards are, well, overpriced when compared to the STM DISCO boards 19:55:28 $10 is nothing, I'd personally GIVE you $10 if you could drop in here 19:55:36 $10 is nothing 19:55:59 no it's not that, it's just that STM is MASSIVE, they practically give their boards away 19:56:11 nordic cant afford that 19:56:17 nor can NXP 19:56:42 the thing is also this 19:56:54 pe`rhaps STM have to do that because their MCUs are pretty ordinary compared to Nordic ? 19:58:12 I mean I have NXP and SILABS boards here Ive never been able to use, all windows oriented or special hard to get connectors 19:58:15 if Nordic is going to make me deal with either a stupid proprietary bootloader which makes me modify my code to work around it OR a stupid set of pads on a board so I can have SWD that are impossible for myself to solder, who is to say that they won't do something similar with one of their expensive boards? 19:58:38 sure, reasonable question 19:59:06 I think this mainly shows how super friendly STM boards are ? 19:59:10 I'm glad at least that I bought the DONGLE first, so I knew what kind of things to watch out for, rather than having bought an expensive board, and then gotten fucked over after spending that money 19:59:33 norsic, nxp, silabs all make stuff thats expensive and hard to use 19:59:38 I'm glad I only spent $10 20:01:25 lesson to self: stick with STM boards, at least theirs are friendly (and their downsides, such as short pins, are minor compared to the alternative) 20:03:30 youre glad you only spent 1.6 Arnold Palmers ? 20:03:43 think of the calories you saved ? 20:04:14 ah well, it was a good exercise, the chip is excellent, the dev boards really suck 20:04:35 and you got out of it for the price of 1.6 Arnold Palmers 20:04:55 and you can STILLprogram it with DFU 20:05:12 I can still program it with DFU, yes 20:05:29 I just will have to figure out how to rework zeptoforth so it's compatible 20:05:44 I have to program my RISC-V boards with DFU, no problem even with FreeBSD and the BROKEN GD32VF103 DFU bootloader 20:06:13 well I dont have to, I can solder on pins to the SWD pads 20:06:19 but DFU is just easier 20:08:03 how is Mecrisp-Stellaris compatible with a DFU bootloader? does it just not use exception vectors (as I know that Mecrisp-Stellaris does not out of the box)? 20:08:36 DFU is just a bootloader 20:09:03 because a key difference between Mecrisp-Stellaris and zeptoforth is that a fully configured zeptoforth system uses SysTick and USART interrupts and Mecrisp-Stellaris does not 20:09:10 it doesnt have any special requirements in comparison to the serial bootloader or SWD 20:09:27 yeah, but thats independent of the bootloader 20:09:48 but the DFU bootloader for the DONGLE takes up the first $1000 of flash 20:09:55 which contains the vectors 20:10:19 ARM also had DFU 20:11:00 hmm id the nordic DFU bootloader in volatile flash ? 20:11:06 thats nuts 20:11:21 there are two sections of flash taken up by it 20:11:25 hmm 20:11:26 both low flash and high flash 20:11:56 I know that the STM32F103 doesnt come with a DFU and one needs to be flashed in if needed 20:12:16 but the serial bootloader is in rom on all stm32 20:12:33 also the serial bootloader works with I2c etc 20:13:07 but I used the DFU on the GD32VF103 many times and flashed Mecrisp-Stellaris meny times 20:13:24 do DFU is obviously in rom on the GD32VF103 20:13:38 do = so 20:14:13 plus Mecrisp-Stellaris does set the vecrors 20:14:16 vectors 20:14:36 only the reset and interrupt vector is required to be preset 20:15:14 or maybe only the reset vector, I cant recall 20:16:16 bbl, youll be asleep by then, good luck! 20:17:55 back 20:31:57 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 20:33:29 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 21:14:24 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 21:34:47 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 22:14:52 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 22:57:56 --- join: jedb_ joined #forth 23:00:25 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.04.09