00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.04.05
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01:02:39 <john_cephalopoda> Oh, hi kori.
01:03:26 <rdrop-exit> hi all
01:04:03 <john_cephalopoda> Hey rdrop-exit 
01:04:17 <rdrop-exit> hey john_cephalopoda
01:04:32 <tpbsd> hey rdrop-exit Zen Forth Guru!
01:04:59 <rdrop-exit> hello Forth Master Technician (tm)!
01:09:03 <kori> hi john_cephalopoda 
01:11:36 <john_cephalopoda> kori: Are you the kori from the 6c37 crux ports collection?
01:19:43 <kori> yes
01:26:20 <john_cephalopoda> Heh, the world is small. Or rather freenode IRC is small :D
01:30:20 <kori> i've been here a while!!! (whenever I'm on freenode)
01:35:10 <john_cephalopoda> It's fun to see a lot of familiar names every time I join a channel.
01:42:30 <crab1> how's y'all
01:45:40 <rdrop-exit> hi crab1
01:45:50 <crab1> what ya up to
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01:46:45 <rdrop-exit> having a snack
01:46:55 <crab1> btw does anyone know a good book/resource about designing VMs?
01:47:15 <crab1> o what's your snack I got Haagen Dasz
01:47:23 <rdrop-exit> Nutella
01:47:55 <crab1> lucky boi
01:48:04 <rdrop-exit> Forth-style VMs?
01:48:16 <crab1> stack machines yeah
01:49:52 <rdrop-exit> there's Koompan's stack machine book but it's not on VMs
01:50:07 <rdrop-exit> * Koopman
01:50:18 <rdrop-exit> it's available free online on his site
01:51:28 <rdrop-exit> for threading techniques there's "Interpretation and Instruction Path Coprocessing" by Dabare et al.
01:52:17 <crab1> I think a forth that's delimited by a character other than spaces would be nice because text is sometimes annoying to deal with and you could avoid escaping in strings
01:52:33 <rdrop-exit> and articles reprints from The Computer Journal by Brad Rodriguez
01:52:51 <john_cephalopoda> crab1: Would make it harder to program though.
01:52:56 <crab1> but no I mean VM more like retro's NGA or jvm and similar
01:53:27 <crab1> john: why?
01:53:50 <john_cephalopoda> You'd need a character to separate words, so instead of pressing the spacebar you'd have to press some other key.
01:53:55 <rdrop-exit> crab1, depends I'm happy with spaces, you don't need to escape anything if your Forth has control of the keyboard
01:54:32 <john_cephalopoda> :_square_dup_*_;
01:55:26 <john_cephalopoda> Maybe you could use one of the non-printing ascii characters, but your code editor would have to understand that and you'd have to map it to some key.
01:56:14 <crab1> yeah something like that, or one of the unicode characters designated for private use, make it look like a dot product maybe
01:56:40 <crab1> bind it to space and move space to another key
01:56:45 <john_cephalopoda> Advantage of a non-printing ascii char would be the small length of one byte :)
01:57:16 <john_cephalopoda> But yeah... Hmm...
01:58:13 <john_cephalopoda> You're right, a private-use unicode character would be advantageous because it usually won't be used in a string.
01:58:44 <crab1> right, if you have unicode at your disposal
01:59:10 <rdrop-exit> for a development environment I prefer 1 char = 1 byte
02:01:02 <crab1> can do 4 byte at a time, it's reasonable
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02:06:42 <rdrop-exit> I would only add Unicode to a Forth if a particular application requires it, i.e. as an optional add-on
02:10:47 <crab1> well ASCII only uses 7 bits so you could add a character right
02:11:00 <crab1> use the 8th bit
02:12:06 <rdrop-exit> it's up to you how you input and display byte values above 127
02:13:00 <crab1> and that way you get a character that nobody else will be using in their strings
02:13:18 <crab1> but it may be hard for other languages to handle your source
02:14:00 <rdrop-exit> to me a byte is a byte, my source is in blocks
02:17:55 <rdrop-exit> what varies is how you input it, and how you display it
02:19:45 <rdrop-exit> i.e. how you interpret keyboard events, and what font you use to display it
02:21:11 <crab1> but anyway, I think when I make a forth I will try using a different delimiter than space
02:22:51 <rdrop-exit> do you have a particular alternative in mind?
02:23:34 <crab1> for now, visually I am thinking of the dot product symbol
02:24:37 <crab1> but I'm unsure, it needs to be a simple symbol
02:24:52 <rdrop-exit> won't that create a lot of clutter on your display if you replace all blank spaces with something visible?
02:25:56 <crab1> I need something at least a little visible to distinguish from spaces that are now allowed everywhere else though
02:26:19 <crab1> if
02:26:31 <john_cephalopoda> rdrop-exit: RETRO Forth actually supports unicode out-of-the-box :D
02:26:38 <rdrop-exit> then you need two delimiters space and your dot product
02:27:39 <rdrop-exit> john_cephalopoda, yes as do most desktop oriented Forths nowadays I imagine
02:29:03 <crab1> space is no longer a delimiter though, it just means that you can have things like :Song by Artist.ogg:play:
02:29:24 <rdrop-exit> john_cephalopoda, I'm old fashioned, I don't have a requirement for Unicode support in the Forth itself, if ever I needed it, I would want to have it as an optional add-in and keep the base Forth clean at 1 char = 1 byte
02:29:29 <crab1> and that would be your string, just delimited like other words are form each other
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02:30:52 <rdrop-exit> crab1, the reason <word><space><word> and <word><100 spaces><word> are quivalent is that the space is treated as a delimiter
02:31:16 <rdrop-exit> * equivalent
02:31:44 <rdrop-exit> by the outer interpreter
02:31:47 <crab1> why do you need 100 spaced between words
02:34:46 <veltas> DKordic: ZX Spectrum
02:35:43 <rdrop-exit> I don't, but I do often have more than one space between words to make it more legible and to highlight patterns
02:36:14 <john_cephalopoda> 100 is exaggerated, but I also often use multiple spaces for alignment reasons.
02:36:47 <rdrop-exit> the 100 was just to show that it makes no particular difference to the outer interpreter
02:37:56 <rdrop-exit> For example juump tables are often aligned visually
02:38:04 <crab1> and you could have :2:3:::+:
02:38:44 <rdrop-exit> like I said it leads to visual clutter when it's not spaces
02:39:25 <rdrop-exit> spaces are relaxing :)
02:40:21 <john_cephalopoda> 3·2···dup··+·.·.···
02:40:35 <crab1> just may need to find the right character
02:40:36 <john_cephalopoda> 3 2   dup  + . .   
02:41:37 <rdrop-exit> what you posted looks like a bunch of A with circumflex
02:42:25 <john_cephalopoda> It's a center dot.
02:42:26 <rdrop-exit> I guess my IRC client isn't configured to Unicode
02:42:47 <rdrop-exit> on my terminal it looks like A with ^ on top
02:43:18 <rdrop-exit> I'lll check the logs online, see what it looks like there
02:43:39 <rdrop-exit> same as on my terminal:
02:43:40 <rdrop-exit> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/20.04.05
02:44:56 <crab1> "3:2:::dup::add:show:show" is probably how I would do this sort of thing
02:45:45 <crab1> I think it's a little more clear to use full words to combat that visual business
02:48:28 <crab1> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/20.04.05
02:48:32 <crab1> shit
02:49:16 <rdrop-exit> how would your comments look?
02:50:15 <rdrop-exit> e.g. an end-of-line comment
02:51:56 <rdrop-exit> I guess like this 3:2:::dup::add:show:show:\:bla bla
02:53:03 <crab1> :program:This is my comment:drop:rest-of-program: would work too but not great
02:53:55 <rdrop-exit> wouldn't it try to interpret "This is my comment" as a word name?
02:57:21 <crab1> oh my concept for this forth says "is it in dictionary? if no, it is data." But idk if that is going to be workable because it introduces some problems
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02:58:47 <rdrop-exit> comments aren't data though
02:59:32 <crab1> that's why you drop it
03:00:13 <rdrop-exit> I see
03:02:49 <crab1> it's a bit of a cavalier solution
03:03:10 <rdrop-exit> makes it hard to catch typos
03:05:30 <crab1> I at least want to give it a whirl and see how it goes, it will probably not be worth the challenges it introduces
03:06:11 <rdrop-exit> that's one of the nices things about Forth it's easy to experiment with
03:07:02 <crab1> yes :)
03:07:11 <crab1> thank chuck for forth
03:07:23 <rdrop-exit> right
03:09:10 <rdrop-exit> unless you care about Forth standards there's no reason not to customize your Forth to be a perfect fit for you
03:09:45 <crab1> if you care about forth standards you are not embracing the spirit of forth
03:09:50 <rdrop-exit> personally I've never cared about Forth standards, although I do care about standards in other domains
03:12:06 <rdrop-exit> I posted about this on reddit not long ago
03:12:20 <crab1> wait
03:12:23 <rdrop-exit> here we go:
03:12:25 <rdrop-exit> A product or component involves a set of "given" or "fixed" technologies (hardware, devices, protocols, specs, layers, interfaces, etc...), that are externally specified by standards or the market.
03:12:29 <rdrop-exit> I see a Forth's role as providing unfettered interactive control of these "fixed" aspects, bottom to top, so you can build up a specific solution with minimal fuss or bloat. In effect a Forth rolls the typical remaining layers and tools (device drivers, debug monitor, OS, shell, assembler, compiler, interpreter, etc...) into a single very tightly-wound no-frills minimalistic platform/framework.
03:12:35 <rdrop-exit> Forth is the one aspect of the product that needn't conform to an external specification or standard, which is what allows it to remain small, nimble, and totally customizable. I don't really see Forth as a language, but as accumulated lore on the design and implementation of such (real or virtual) stack machines, and the programming of solutions on/with them.
03:13:20 <rdrop-exit> ooh, that was a longer post than I remembered, sorry about the semi-spamming
03:13:36 <crab1> no problem
03:16:07 <crab1> I am good with well defined interfaces and protocols, points of contact in general must be very concretely specified, but I am not a fan of standard implementations or interfaces made so complicated that only one implementation will ever come into existence
03:20:06 <rdrop-exit> I'm not a fan of having to go through a library to get to an interface or protocol, I'd rather deal with the interface or protocol directly.
03:20:21 <crab1> exactly
03:20:40 <crab1> also standards like JSON are fucking stupid
03:21:24 <rdrop-exit> I'll take your word for it
03:22:41 <rdrop-exit> bbl, stay healthy :)
03:23:35 <crab1> toodles
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05:04:18 <webchat9> how to compile a number into a word, as it is? without (LIT)   I want to manually embed a sequence of bytes (assembly instructions) in a word 
05:05:13 <john_cephalopoda> Which Forth dialect are you using?
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05:06:21 <john_cephalopoda> Gforth, for example, has some special words to handle assembly embedding: https://gforth.org/manual/Assembler-Definitions.html
05:10:20 <webchat9> spf-forth
05:11:11 <webchat9> Found its inline asm handling lib ; but it doesn't recognize a certain instruction so I was curious if there's a way to just embed a byte
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05:13:32 <MrMobius> how about just CREATE ?
05:15:26 <tpbsd> we do it like this on Mecrisp-Stellaris 
05:15:28 <tpbsd> : 2plus ( u -- 2+ )
05:15:29 <tpbsd> [          \ *execute* mode
05:15:29 <tpbsd> $2102 h,   \ movs      r1, #2
05:15:29 <tpbsd> $1872 h,   \ adds      r2, r6, r1
05:15:29 <tpbsd> $0016 h,   \ movs      r6, r2
05:15:29 <tpbsd> ]          \ *compile* mode
05:15:31 <tpbsd> ;
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05:20:38 <rdrop-exit> most forths have various comma words e.g. either b, ro c, to comma a byte
05:20:50 <rdrop-exit> 16, to comma 16-bits
05:20:59 <rdrop-exit> 32, to comma 32 bits
05:21:07 <rdrop-exit> or similar words
05:21:31 <rdrop-exit> some use h, for half-word etc...
05:21:48 <webchat9> thanks 
05:21:55 <tpbsd> my working example above is just inlined machine code for cortex-m0
05:22:48 <rdrop-exit> right, your "h," is probably equivalent to "16," on my system
05:23:06 <rdrop-exit> it lays down 16 bits
05:24:19 <tpbsd> true, it's 'halfword'
05:24:43 <rdrop-exit> right
05:24:52 <tpbsd> i compile the code with a assembler them translate it as above to a word
05:25:52 <tpbsd> i wrote about it here: https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/machine-code.html?highlight=machine%20assembly
05:27:03 <rdrop-exit> DOS Forths also had comma-ing words for different segments, e.g. c,c to comma a byte into the code segment and c,h to comma a byte into the header segment (for multi-segment Forths)
05:28:02 <rdrop-exit> One can add comma words for any space, buffer, target, or whatever, not just for the Forth dictionary
05:28:18 <rdrop-exit> Anything that fills up
05:28:32 <rdrop-exit> It's a common Forth idiom
05:29:16 <rdrop-exit> If you have a space that stuff gets layed down into, you make a set of custom comma-ing words
05:30:04 <rdrop-exit> You have a variable that tracks the current offset, just as DP does it for the Forth dictionary
05:30:59 <rdrop-exit> I have factors for this
05:31:25 <tpbsd> have you installed Jitsi yet ?
05:31:41 <tpbsd> oops sorry, wrong ch!
05:32:27 <tpbsd> (jitsi is a OSS video/audio system for communicating over the net)
05:32:56 <tpbsd> it's gained a lot of users since the CoV-19 outbreak
05:34:55 <rdrop-exit> so for example if you have a FOO buffer, you would have a FOO'ED variable to track it
05:35:33 <rdrop-exit> then you would have various comma words e.g. B,FOO 16,FOO 32,FOO ,FOO etc...
05:36:30 <rdrop-exit> if needed they could have overflow checks
05:39:19 <rdrop-exit> you could even have S,FOO for strings #,FOO for variable length comma-ing, etc...
05:39:39 <rdrop-exit> tp, not familiar with jitsi
05:40:28 <rdrop-exit> I've been using zoom to conference with the kids, and whatsapp to chat with them individually
05:40:42 <rdrop-exit> bbiab
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05:41:22 <tpbsd> no problemo
05:42:43 <john_cephalopoda> Riot IM works quite well for individual video chat. Never tried conferences though.
05:43:14 <john_cephalopoda> It's a horrible messenger though. Totally unusable for me.
05:44:53 <tpbsd> our computer club is trying jitsi out this week as we cant meet in person atm
05:47:36 <john_cephalopoda> Neat.
05:48:09 <john_cephalopoda> I've used it in the past. Good thing and self-hosting is possible.
05:48:11 <tpbsd> i havent installed it yet, gotta update this pc first
05:48:39 <tpbsd> yeah the club server has jitsi installed and working as a server
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05:56:08 <john_cephalopoda> The Forth e.V.'s conference was twitch streamed this year. I'll have to look for the videos some time, some topics sounded interesting.
06:00:39 <tpbsd> sadly looks like jitsi is a no-no on FreeBSD 
06:00:45 <tpbsd> I'll have to use Linux
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06:51:19 <veltas> tpbsd: I stopped using FreeBSD the last time I tried because DRM stuff doesn't work easily
06:52:22 <veltas> I know there is a clever way to run Firefox using a simulated Linux system on FreeBSD but that is already getting unreasonably difficult for me
06:53:44 <veltas> The only BSD I use now is NetBSD for really constrained systems, it is the only good free UNIX that 'runs on anything' anymore.
06:53:44 <tpbsd> veltas, I run firefox on FreeBSD 
06:54:07 <veltas> Firefox runs on FreeBSD, but the native Firefox does not allow using most DRM
06:54:13 <tpbsd> ahh
06:54:22 <tpbsd> I like NetBSD also
06:54:25 <tpbsd> and OpenBSD
06:55:07 <tpbsd> my favorite is Openindiana but I Id have to compile heaps of my apps for it
06:55:30 <veltas> I am interested to try OpenBSD but for the fun of it, not sure I have the patience to really rely on it
06:56:23 <tpbsd> it's really nice but *only* runs OSS packages
06:56:29 <tpbsd> no Nvidia etc
06:56:50 <veltas> tpbsd: Hmm this is the issue with distros and different UNIXs etc, I enjoyed trying loads out but eventually for me I have gone with the path of least resistance. So I just use Arch Linux (or Debian for x86-32). Those are the things that burn me the least.
06:57:24 <veltas> There is a nice "non-free" version of the Debian installer so your drivers work out the box
06:59:09 <veltas> Imagine not running 'unfree' binary blobs on your computer. Almost the entire web uses what the FSF considers non-free JavaScript, do you think they care if you don't?
07:00:41 <veltas> I have for a long time agreed with the stance e.g. FSF take that licensing and EULAs etc to try and limit how you use software is unethical and unhelpful. But I have always disagreed with their approach because it clearly doesn't work.
07:01:07 <veltas> Open source got it right, lead by example.
07:01:49 <tpbsd> opensource or gpl ?
07:08:38 <john_cephalopoda> Do I really want to use the 16 MB of non-free JS to display a 220KB image?
07:09:05 <john_cephalopoda> The web is a mess. DRM is useless and punishes the people who pay for things.
07:09:06 <tpbsd> no ?
07:09:53 <john_cephalopoda> tpbsd: There are many websites that display only one image (comic/manga viewers, image boards) but are backed by tons of JS.
07:11:10 <tpbsd> john_cephalopoda, yeah, the web seems to run on JS these days
07:11:53 <veltas> tpbsd: GPL is an open source licence. But when I say 'open source' I mean the movement that distinguished itself from the 'free software movement'
07:12:13 <john_cephalopoda> JS should be the cherry on top of the cake, yet web designers build their sites out of cherry and put a crumble of cake on top.
07:13:44 <tpbsd> veltas, to me the GPL is Free Software and the OSS another thing, not GPL
07:13:56 <veltas> Yes
07:14:00 <veltas> I know how you mean that
07:14:10 <tpbsd> it's a bit confusing
07:14:26 <veltas> But by the open source movement's definition of "open source" the GPL is a type of open source licence
07:14:42 <veltas> Well it is *the* definition because they invented the term
07:14:43 <tpbsd> I must admit, Im more of a BSD licence person now, but I still owe a massive amount to RMS
07:15:14 <tpbsd> veltas, the OSS movement would have us believe it's the same as the GPL I think
07:15:19 <veltas> Yes a huge amount of the software I rely on every day has credits to RMS
07:15:25 <veltas> I'm not sure what you mean
07:16:02 <veltas> Like, most people who call themselves "open source" advocates know the difference between GPL and MIT or BSD. And some are critical of GPL vs MIT, etc.
07:16:38 <tpbsd> yeah it's a religous war Im sure neither of us want to get into here on #forth :)
07:16:55 <veltas> I'm not involved in this war and never have been
07:17:14 <tpbsd> in 1993 it was all much simpler
07:17:21 <veltas> True that
07:17:37 <tpbsd> me neither but I do tend to debate with those who think GPL == OSS
07:18:24 <veltas> It's more like a subset relation
07:18:43 <tpbsd> as usual history is always being changed by the victors which makes it difficult for those that were there at the time and remember
07:19:35 <tpbsd> it was more like eric raymond wanting to slyly commercialise the GPL as I recall it
07:20:06 <veltas> Yeah that is the point of open source
07:20:23 <tpbsd> at the time a lot of GPL people were very upset
07:21:16 <tpbsd> and everyone has a valid point, as a FreeBSD user I'm not so GPL strict now, in fact I release under the BSD lic now if I can
07:21:49 <tpbsd> ie come to see some of the negatives of the GPL over the years, nothing is perfect
07:21:53 <veltas> There is a philosophical difference and I know I am more aligned with the open source people, even if they are dirty commericalists or whatever people want to say
07:22:30 <tpbsd> hahah, I am probably as well nowdays. Im no longer a GPL zealot, thats for sure
07:23:48 <tpbsd> the forth I use (Mecrisp-Stellaris) is GPL3 and I'd rather it wasn't but I didn't write it 
07:24:22 <john_cephalopoda> Hmm, I've got to look at my old repos for the licenses...
07:24:25 <tpbsd> nowdays Im becomming more and more inclined to start wor`king on my own tethered Forth for cortex-m and that will be a BSD lic
07:24:39 <veltas> My position, as I said before, is I don't think I have the right, nor should I threaten, taking someone to court and forcing them to do something because they used some software I wrote.
07:25:44 <john_cephalopoda> Looks like I used MIT/zlib pretty much from the beginning. Because it was too inconvenient to copy-paste the whole GPL and remember all its parts, I suppose :þ
07:26:07 <tpbsd> john_cephalopoda, lol
07:26:43 <tpbsd> I'm a electronics tech as well, a software lic doesnt have the same import to me as it does to a programmer
07:26:53 <john_cephalopoda> I think I read through the GPL and LGPL one or two times each. But it's just such a hassle. Nobody got time for that.
07:27:13 <tpbsd> if I want to protect a hardware design I just make it really hard to copy, grind the numbers of the chips etc
07:27:32 <john_cephalopoda> tpbsd: Put a blob of epoxy on top of it all! :þ
07:27:38 <tpbsd> john_cephalopoda, yeah, same here, Im not a lawyer
07:28:01 <tpbsd> john_cephalopoda, with Carborundum dust mixed into the epoxy ? ;-)
07:28:18 <tpbsd> Nil Carborundum Bastardo !
07:28:32 <tpbsd> (dont let any bastard grind you down)
07:28:53 <john_cephalopoda> tpbsd: Pour armored concrete around your hardware.
07:29:09 <tpbsd> hahah, give weight to my design
07:29:44 <john_cephalopoda> Charge for hardware design by grams :D
07:31:10 <tpbsd> john_cephalopoda, I once spent a week designing a awesome heavy duty monitor mount for a stock brokers office about 30 years ago, I made up about 20 of them and they were all fitted mounted from the ceiling 
07:31:25 <tpbsd> it was one of my best designs
07:32:15 <john_cephalopoda> Oh, nice! I got some Samsung monitor which doesn
07:32:23 <tpbsd> a couple of years later I was back in that city and visiting a stock brokers office and noticed they also had many of my mounds hanging from the ceiling
07:32:24 <john_cephalopoda> 't have an adjustable mount. It's the horror.
07:32:45 <tpbsd> differnt stockbroker tho, and I only made the one set!
07:33:16 <tpbsd> imitation is the best form of flattery I decided
07:33:31 <tpbsd> yeah all the commercial ones were junk
07:34:02 <tpbsd> these CRTs at the stockbrokers were huge and so the mount had to be able to stand the load
07:34:23 <tpbsd> I chromed all the parts, they looked awesome
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07:56:17 <crest_> hi. i just got mecrisp stellaris working on an old stm32f103 and s" is compile only on this forth
07:56:57 <crest_> to write my own little conditional include logic i want to check if the last word in a file on my host computer is already defined
08:00:01 <tpbsd> crest_, awesome, congrats
08:00:41 <crest_> i use freebsd and while i got e4thcom kind of working on freebsd with the 64 bit linux abi
08:00:55 <tpbsd> eww, e4thcom doesnt like FreeBSD
08:01:21 <crest_> tpbsd: it starts up and as basic termial emulator
08:01:29 <crest_> so does picocom
08:01:32 <tpbsd> crest_, you can add RTS handshaking instead and then use any terminal ?
08:01:53 <crest_> tpbsd: i use a direct usb serial
08:02:03 <tpbsd> crest_, thats what I do, Ive made a few standalone binaries for that chip
08:02:09 <tpbsd> crest_, auu
08:02:34 <crest_> i'm self isolating at home and don't have access to my tools in the local hackerspace
08:02:43 <tpbsd> crest_, the usb driver uses 'backpressure' to control flow
08:02:57 <crest_> ascii-xfr -s works fine without line delay
08:03:03 <tpbsd> crest if you try a 1ms EOL delay on picocom it may work fine
08:03:19 <tpbsd> crest_, ahh, intersting to know
08:03:32 <tpbsd> crest_, what baud do you use ?
08:03:59 <crest_> i didn't configure any because assumed it makes no sense on a usb "modem"
08:04:11 <crest_> so freebsd should default to 9600
08:04:24 <crest_> but it feels to fast for just 9600 baud
08:04:37 <crest_> i can raise it to 115200 and report back
08:04:39 <tpbsd> it doesnt, but I've always configured it on picocom as I use it with USART normally
08:04:49 <tpbsd> I'm sure it doesnt matter as you say
08:05:00 <tpbsd> it's really fast wuth that usb connection
08:05:13 <tpbsd> faster than my 460800 baud on other systems
08:05:17 <crest_> and it requires just a single cable
08:05:25 <tpbsd> yes, very handy
08:05:29 <crest_> i have no tools except my hands and a multitool
08:06:04 <crest_> i had to bend most of the pins on the ftdi232 chip out of the way to get rx/tx connected for the initial upload
08:06:18 <tpbsd> ?
08:06:41 <tpbsd> ahh ho bootloader on the f103 usb!
08:06:47 <crest_> i have a few spare blue pill boards
08:07:02 <tpbsd> have you run my binary diag on it ?
08:07:33 <tpbsd> https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/stm32f1xx-diagnostics.html#stm32f103xx-diagnostics
08:07:34 <crest_> they are the 128kb model and i run the eb13e308316527be6a8963098c7291d5.bin image i found online
08:07:46 <tpbsd> aha thats a old one of mine
08:08:07 <tpbsd> the new one helps you determine the chip with greater accuracy
08:08:23 <crest_> i compiled mecrisp stellaris 2.5.3 from source and flashed that as well
08:08:30 <tpbsd> cool
08:08:45 <tpbsd> at least it compiles out of the box on FreeBSD
08:08:51 <crest_> it didn't
08:08:52 <tpbsd> Im running FreeBSD myself
08:08:58 <tpbsd> oh why ?
08:09:03 <tpbsd> oh yeah "bash"
08:09:08 <crest_> i had to install gnu coreutils from ports to get md5sum etc.
08:09:22 <crest_> (and of course the arm compilers)
08:09:39 <crest_> bash etc.
08:09:50 <tpbsd> I just compile the target in the source dir using gnake
08:09:52 <tpbsd> gmake
08:09:53 <crest_> than patch the shell scripts to call gmd5sum
08:09:56 <crest_> and gmake
08:10:16 <crest_> and remove the linux builds because there is no linux arm toolchain ports
08:10:19 <tpbsd> i dont bother with the 'make every target' thing
08:10:52 <tpbsd> I installed bash and symlinked it to handle Linux things
08:10:54 <crest_> than i compiled the freebsd mecrisp and ran it on my amd64 with qemu static :-)
08:11:08 <tpbsd> yeah me too
08:11:21 <tpbsd> and you noticed the api stuff ?
08:11:25 <crest_> which api stuff?
08:11:32 <tpbsd> youcan even use the networking I've been told
08:11:49 <tpbsd> the freebsd mecrisp has a API
08:12:06 <tpbsd> it's quite different to the embedded one
08:12:18 <crest_> sure almost freebsd syscalls should work
08:12:29 <tpbsd> fo you can save and read files from the pc with it
08:12:40 <crest_> i suspect it will get confusing to read /dev/kmem :-P
08:12:50 <crest_> but other than that the arm emulation works pretty well
08:12:51 <tpbsd> i havent used it apart from a quick test
08:12:58 <tpbsd> it does
08:13:08 <crest_> i've used it to compile freebsd package repos for arm boards
08:13:13 <tpbsd> I'm a electronics tech and I only use the embedded stuff
08:13:22 <tpbsd> nice
08:13:35 <tpbsd> beats that very limited thumbulator
08:13:47 <crest_> i used it for stuff like the 32bit raspberry pi
08:13:55 <tpbsd> I spoke to the guy that made up the freebsd version
08:14:04 <tpbsd> of Mecrisp-Stellaris 
08:14:08 <crest_> which is an ugly kludge, but cheap and available
08:14:38 <tpbsd> I've only used Linux on the rpi, when it comes to large embedded I dont care what I use
08:14:59 <crest_> i prefer to use freebsd if it can handle the task
08:15:28 <tpbsd> and why not
08:15:35 <crest_> e.g. read a reed relay switch via gpio and expose the door status in the hackerspace as irc bot
08:16:20 <crest_> but back to forth related topics :-)
08:16:31 <tpbsd> as a way to prevent uploading previous files, have you considered just concatenating all your Forth source into one file before upload after erasing flash ?
08:16:42 <tpbsd> thats what I do
08:16:49 <tpbsd> I also strip all the comments
08:17:06 <crest_> at the speed of the usb serial i don't care about stripping comments yet
08:17:20 <crest_> but eraseflash on your old image kills the usb serial 
08:17:21 <tpbsd> I do, I hate any delays
08:17:30 <tpbsd> oh yeah!
08:17:39 <crest_> it comes back on usart1
08:17:44 <tpbsd> unless you use cornerstone ?
08:20:50 <crest_> now i just get unhandled interrupt 3
08:21:15 <tpbsd> ah ok
08:21:26 <tpbsd> which cornerstone do you have I wonder
08:21:58 <tpbsd> Jeelabs made a special one thats used here and there
08:22:33 <crest_> just https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/glossary.html
08:22:37 <tpbsd> are you planning to use the 2nd 64kb Flash on the board ?
08:23:07 <crest_> afaik the image already uses it
08:23:35 <tpbsd> which image ?
08:23:43 <crest_> your old image i'm using
08:23:47 <tpbsd> ahh
08:23:51 <crest_> FLASH.. TOTAL REPORTED: 131072 USED: 90228 FREE: 40844 
08:23:51 <crest_> RAM.... TOTAL PRESET: 20000 USED: 888 FREE: 19112
08:24:01 <crest_> (with a decimal base)
08:24:39 <tpbsd> thats pretty old I cant remember if the conerstone was broken but I think it was, yeah I'm sure it was
08:24:52 <crest_> there was no cornerstone
08:25:16 <tpbsd> lemme check the wordlist
08:25:19 <crest_> i just risked executing the example from the documentation
08:25:20 <tpbsd> brb
08:26:28 <crest_> looks like my step should be to learn about the mecrips terminal input buffering
08:26:47 <crest_> to get a string out of the tib to pass to find
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08:27:09 <tpbsd> i think you know more about Forth than I do at tis stage
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08:27:18 <crest_> i sure don't
08:27:27 <crest_> i haven't used forth in ages
08:27:39 <tpbsd> i wouldnt be so sure, I'm a tech not a programmer
08:27:51 <crest_> and just looked for a nice toy to pass the time
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08:28:05 <tpbsd> of course
08:28:17 <tpbsd> do you think you have CoV-19 ?
08:28:19 <crest_> so far i got the systick working and wrote a multitasking blinky
08:28:29 <crest_> tpbsd: probably
08:28:35 <tpbsd> thats not noob stuff!
08:28:45 <tpbsd> how do you feel ?
08:29:02 <crest_> mine was a mild case
08:29:19 <tpbsd> excellent, and hopefully come out with some immunity
08:29:26 <MrMobius> aka COVID-0x13
08:29:33 <crest_> MrMobius: :-P
08:29:35 <tpbsd> heheh
08:29:57 <tpbsd> actually it's COVID-$13 around here!
08:30:28 <tpbsd> it's COVID-0x13 over on #embedded
08:30:46 <crest_> tpbsd: i followed the examples from the documentation
08:31:25 <crest_> and used the multitask.txt
08:32:23 <crest_> but followed the bloody datasheets to configure the gpio clock, open drain output pin and systick timer 
08:32:50 <tpbsd> crest have you seen the register pretty print on that binary ?
08:33:01 <tpbsd> ie "gpioa."
08:33:07 <crest_> tpbsd: yes it was very helpful
08:33:14 <tpbsd> awesome!
08:33:39 <tpbsd> are you familiar with cortex-m generally ?
08:33:56 <crest_> no
08:34:01 <tpbsd> ahh!
08:34:31 <tpbsd> the STm32F103 (cortex-m3) has the most HORRIBLE gpio config ever
08:34:38 <tpbsd> I totally hate it
08:34:48 <crest_> i have only used with avrs with avr libc and/or asm in the past
08:34:55 <tpbsd> aha
08:35:09 <crest_> i once wrote a totally crazy line following robot that did all the logic in interrupt handlers
08:35:29 <tpbsd> the later chips such as cortex-m0 which I use and the M4's all use a nice easy and non horrible GPIO config
08:35:45 <crest_> the main function just configured the hardware and went into a sleep loop
08:35:48 <tpbsd> did it follow a line well ?
08:35:52 <crest_> sure
08:35:58 <tpbsd> nice
08:35:59 <veltas> crest_: "that did all the logic in interrupt handlers" that sounds like me irl
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08:36:52 <tpbsd> crest_, if you like doing everything in ISR's then youll love the m3, you have TONS of interrupts!
08:36:59 <crest_> i was even mean enough to allow nested interrupt handling and included a short "proof" of how deep the stack could nest given the worst case runtime of the interrupt handlers and the adc sample rate
08:37:42 <crest_> tpbsd: i didn't like doing it that way. i just wanted to mess with my teaching assistant, because he claimed it was impossible
08:37:51 <tpbsd> hahah
08:38:01 <tpbsd> what were you teaching ?
08:39:40 <crest_> i took "Produktionsinformatik" because it was the smallest evil among the optional courses i had to pick from
08:40:21 <tpbsd> and you had some fun it sounds like !
08:40:49 <crest_> we had to program the avr and they assumed we would use the arduino ide
08:41:17 <crest_> i asked if we could use avr libc and normal embedded c instead
08:41:38 <tpbsd> crest_, if you use the TIB and search for Words previously loaded the problem there is words that have been changed ?
08:41:53 <tpbsd> eww arduino <spit>
08:41:58 <crest_> exactly
08:42:09 <crest_> and those poor avr chips
08:42:17 <crest_> they are already so easy to get up and running
08:42:23 <crest_> everything is enabled by default
08:42:28 <tpbsd> they were great in their day, back in 1897
08:42:34 <crest_> and the datasheet is writen for human consumption
08:42:43 <crest_> *written
08:43:21 <tpbsd> I hate AVR as it happens, but then I had a Vulcan mind meld with the ARM cortex-m manuals and now Im good
08:44:12 <crest_> they are crude 8bit cpus and the peripherals are limited
08:44:14 <tpbsd> you know you can run Mecrisp-Stellaris on a cortex-m with zero external components, just power and 3.3v serial ?
08:44:36 <tpbsd> and it will boot at 8Mhz and run fine
08:44:54 <tpbsd> i dont think there is a easier chip to get running
08:45:25 <tpbsd> anyway, the AVR is ancient
08:45:34 <crest_> an avr just needs anything between 2.7v and 6v
08:45:39 <tpbsd> heck, even your bluepill is ancient
08:46:00 <crest_> i know. they're cheap recycled crap
08:46:06 <tpbsd> crest_, what chip do you think you have in the bluepills ?
08:46:16 <crest_> i didn't run your diagnostic
08:46:44 <tpbsd> you can have up to 4 different mcu's at least iirc
08:47:11 <crest_> but given that your forth image uses 90k and works it has to be one with 128k flash
08:47:11 <tpbsd> it's probably a STM32F103C8
08:47:25 <tpbsd> oh yeah, but how did you flash it ?
08:47:35 <tpbsd> serial of course 
08:48:34 <tpbsd> the SWD and JTAG flashers wont flash over 64kb on a STM32F103C8
08:48:50 <tpbsd> as the chip flash register says '64kB'
08:49:02 <crest_> via serial 
08:49:23 <tpbsd> but you may have STM32F103CB which declares 128kB
08:50:21 <crest_> which register do i have to read to find out?
08:50:23 <tpbsd> Ive set the kernel up in that binary to think it has 128kB also
08:50:39 <tpbsd> type ? there should be a menu ?
08:51:17 <tpbsd> unlless that version didnt have it
08:52:23 <crest_> type is the word to print a string
08:52:35 <tpbsd> yes
08:52:48 <tpbsd> one way to do it
08:53:07 <tpbsd> ." I'm a string" is another but needs to be compiled
08:53:50 <crest_> the only words in the image containing the substring "type" are "type" and "ctype"
08:53:54 <crest_> there is no "type?"
08:55:17 <tpbsd> it has all the Mecrisp-Stellaris built in words
08:55:49 <tpbsd> theyre all here https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/words.html
08:56:04 <tpbsd> hey i gtg it's 2am here, zz time
08:56:13 <crest_> gn8
08:56:21 <tpbsd> great to see a Mecrisp-Stellaris user, have fun!
08:56:32 <crest_> yes. i missunderstood and assumed your image included some kind of hardware diagnostic already
08:56:46 <crest_> and i found a solution
08:56:57 <crest_> mecrisp has a working "token" word
08:57:04 <crest_> but i really works line by line
08:57:21 <crest_> so the scope for anything token returns is just the current line of input
08:57:47 <crest_> but token $some_word find should do the trick
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09:29:33 <veltas> What are good names for words that access I/O space?
09:30:03 <veltas> I am torn between IN and OUT, or IO@ and IO!
09:30:28 <mark4> i would use the @ and ! because you might want to have c@ and c! in there too
09:30:31 <veltas> Or maybe I/O@ and I/O!
09:30:42 <mark4> x86 allows 8 and 16 bit io writes i believe
09:30:47 <Zarutian_HTC> depends, are you configuring or using an io device?
09:30:59 <veltas> mark4: This is Z80 but it's the same concept
09:31:43 <veltas> I think I am going to keep it 8-bit only though
09:32:05 <veltas> Zarutian_HTC: Just using an I/O device directly
09:33:04 <veltas> But also these words might be used by a Forth programmer for general I/O address access I suppose
09:34:38 <Zarutian_HTC> the difference, for example an uart, is that you configure the baud rate, start and stop bits and parity but use the uart to transmit or recieve a char/byte
09:37:11 <veltas> I am writing generic words for accessing I/O space, not memory-mapped I/O but specifically the "I/O address space" that you get on x86 and Z80
09:37:41 <veltas> So it really doesn't matter what kind of hardware interaction is happening here
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13:55:56 <crest_> tpbsd: wtf?!? why is the stm32f103 usb interface so braindead?
13:57:04 <Zarutian_HTC> crest_: how braindead is it?
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13:57:23 <crest_> Zarutian_HTC: the usb interface the core share a 512 byte dual ported memory
13:57:50 <crest_> the core sees this as 1024 32bit words with half of each word "ignored"
13:58:29 <crest_> looks like they glued a 16bit usb interface to a 32bit bus and connected the address lines shifted by one bit
13:58:55 <crest_> i'm sure there is some reason, but it's just annoying and ugly
13:59:24 <crest_> if you can read german and c++ there is a guide here: https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/USB-Tutorial_mit_STM32
14:00:05 <crest_> the same 512 bytes are also used by the can controller so you have to pick between usb and can bus
14:01:01 <Zarutian_HTC> well the google translate isnt too terrible
14:04:46 <crest_> some of it isn't too bad
14:04:58 <crest_> just enable the transmitter and wait 1us
14:06:18 <crest_> register interrupts and set the enable the 1.5k pull up (which is hardwired on the blue pill. unless you enable usb in time the host will log lots of usb failures)
14:20:07 <Zarutian_HTC> this wierd access setup from the core could easily be masked by the @ and ! primitives, no?
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14:40:20 <crest_> Zarutian_HTC: sure you can work with it
14:40:30 <crest_> its just annoying
14:40:36 <crest_> *it's
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15:15:59 <tabemann> back
15:40:28 <tpbsd> crest_, perhaps because it's 16 years old ?
15:41:39 <tpbsd> tabemann, welcome back!, crest_ is using Mecrisp-Stellaris of a F103 with one of my old bootable binaries!
15:42:06 <tabemann> cool
15:43:32 <tpbsd> tabemann, the thinks people do when stuck at home self isolating!
15:45:24 <tabemann> I do them regardless, stuck at home or not!
15:46:27 <tpbsd> :)
15:49:07 <crest_> tpbsd: if i had a proper way to connect the usb serial adapter i wouldn't have started my journey by looking at the usb interface
15:49:10 <tabemann> btw
15:49:30 <tabemann> do h.2 and h.4 output 8 bit and 16 bit hexadecimal values padded with zeros?
15:49:53 <crest_> instead i would've prefered to use a usb serial adapter with flowcontrol and at least one gpio pin for software controlled reset
15:50:30 <tpbsd> crest_, and arduino!!
15:50:42 <crest_> why would i use arduino?
15:50:57 <tpbsd> a pin for software reset ?
15:51:15 <tpbsd> you dont need a pin for software reset with Mecrisp-Stellaris 
15:51:44 <crest_> to reset the uC from my desktop without touching the reset button
15:52:26 <tpbsd> but you can do that with the Mecrisp-Stellaris 'reset' command ?
15:52:43 <crest_> only if the system is still responsive
15:52:45 <tpbsd> I use that plus the ram clear command all the time
15:53:34 <tpbsd> oh, pc software reset then ?
15:54:03 <tpbsd> something like the arduino uses ?
15:54:16 <crest_> e.g. while writing my blinky i forgot to yield the cpu in my blink task
15:54:37 <tpbsd> cts from the usb/3.3v dongle to a transistor on the target ?
15:54:48 <tpbsd> crest_, as you do
15:55:14 <tpbsd> I just have a reset button on the target which gets pressed a million times a project
15:55:17 <crest_> the cts/rts pins are required for hw flow control
15:55:26 <tpbsd> yes, if in use
15:56:05 <crest_> but access to the reset line from the host is nice because it can be used to run a test suite or fuzz things
15:56:17 <crest_> and recover from almost all software errors
15:57:03 <crest_> but for now a physical reset button works for the cases when i lock myself out
15:57:05 <tpbsd> in the case of Mecrisp-Stellaris I only use the RTS from the board to CTS on the pc because it's the MCU thats the slow part
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15:57:37 <tpbsd> and when developing being locked out only happens about 1000 times a day :)
15:57:56 <tpbsd> I've work out at least one reset button so far
15:58:13 <tpbsd> Im thinking of using a contactless one next
15:58:17 <tabemann> back
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16:11:13 <tabemann> I just did my port of ihex.fs
16:11:28 <tpbsd> wow
16:11:42 <tpbsd> got ihex streaming up the terminal yet ?
16:12:38 <tabemann> not yet
16:16:46 <tabemann> nowI have hex streaming up the screen
16:17:02 <tpbsd> hahah, awesome
16:17:17 <tpbsd> ihex4 to be exact
16:17:38 <crest_> tpbsd: btw my idea with token foo find drop 0<> cr . works in expect
16:18:22 <tpbsd> crest_, brilliant! so many skilled embedded Forth programmers here lately!
16:18:34 <crest_> now i just need a good way to upload code without disturb the rest of the system
16:18:42 <tpbsd> crest_, what is 'token' ?
16:18:51 <crest_> token a word in mecrisp
16:19:08 <crest_> it takes the next token from the terminal input buffer (the current line)
16:19:30 <crest_> so you can't hold on to the string
16:19:35 <tpbsd> oh!
16:19:48 <tpbsd> I never understood the description "token 	( - - c-addr len ) 	Cuts one token out of input buffer"
16:20:15 <crest_> run token + find drop 10 20 rot execute 
16:20:44 <tpbsd> token + find drop 10 20 rot execute ok. 
16:20:44 <tpbsd> . 30 ok.
16:21:11 <crest_> token + gets you the single char string "+"
16:21:37 <crest_> find searches the dictionary for it and returns the xt and flags
16:22:26 <tabemann> find in zeptoforth just returns a pointer to the word header, from which one can get the xt, the flags, the name, and the next pointer of the word
16:22:34 <crest_> the 0<> cr . makes it easier to match the output because it reduces it to two cases
16:22:39 <crest_> found or not defined
16:23:28 <tpbsd> crest_, aha, I'm beginning to understand
16:24:27 <tpbsd> crest_, I use hardware handshaking so I can use gnu screen as my terminal
16:24:44 <crest_> i prefer tmux and picocom
16:25:00 <crest_> or just picocom on my local system and i3 as tiling window manager
16:25:13 <tpbsd> crest_, that way I can have multiple remote connections to the serial port
16:25:37 <tpbsd> crest_, sadly tmux has no terminal capability
16:26:00 <tpbsd> crest_, and picocom would never do what I need
16:26:10 <crest_> what do you need that minicom offers?
16:26:25 <crest_> i'm still looking for a good way to combine multiple files on my host system
16:26:48 <crest_> to quickly reset the uC and upload my code
16:26:51 <tpbsd> crest_, concatenate them into one large file ?
16:26:56 <tpbsd> thats what I do
16:27:11 <tpbsd> it's all automatic via my GVIM make button
16:27:17 <crest_> sure cat $> >.blob.fs
16:27:31 <crest_> but what about dependencies?
16:27:35 <crest_> just flatten it all manually?
16:28:45 <crest_> do you just run forgetram a lot?
16:28:55 <tpbsd> this is a script I use to load all the files for zeptoforth into one file including removing all the comments
16:28:59 <tpbsd> cat zeptoforth/src/common/forth/schedule.fs >> $ZEPTOFORTH
16:28:59 <tpbsd> cat zeptoforth/src/common/forth/task.fs >> $ZEPTOFORTH
16:28:59 <tpbsd> cat zeptoforth/src/stm32f407/forth/int_io.fs >> $ZEPTOFORTH
16:28:59 <tpbsd> cat zeptoforth/src/common/forth/systick.fs >> $ZEPTOFORTH
16:28:59 <tpbsd> cat zeptoforth/src/common/forth/basic.fs > $ZEPTOFORTH
16:28:59 <tpbsd> sed 's/\\.*$//g' < $ZEPTOFORTH | sed '/^\s*$/d' | sed 's/([^)]*)//g' > $ZEPTOFORTH.rcas.fs
16:29:01 <tpbsd> rm $ZEPTOFORTH
16:30:01 <tpbsd> crest_, I use it forgetram when I'm creating a bootable binary image of the chip, same as when I made the binary youre using now
16:31:08 <tpbsd> mainly because I load the program that does the flash--> bootable binary from ram on the target
16:31:36 <tpbsd> hmm, forget that, it makes no sense
16:31:53 <tpbsd> I use it for some reason instead of reset in that process anyway
16:35:39 <crest_> i still haven't got a cornerstone that doesn't wipe at least the usb serial 
16:36:02 <tpbsd> i think I used the wrong one in that image
16:36:19 <crest_> as far as i can tell you didn't include one
16:38:00 <crest_> but maybe eraseflashfrom assumes a 64kb flash
16:39:01 <tpbsd> I removed that image from my site a while back and deleted it here so I'm not sure now
16:39:14 <crest_> neither am i
16:39:18 <tpbsd> I think it was my forst release
16:39:28 <tpbsd> would you like a new one ?
16:39:38 <tpbsd> I'll make you a image made to order :)
16:39:50 <crest_> i should probably figure out how to build image with usb serial myself
16:39:50 <tpbsd> just tell me what you want in it ?
16:39:57 <crest_> *an image
16:40:10 <tpbsd> yeah, youd have no problems
16:40:19 <tpbsd> expecially using QEMU
16:40:48 <tpbsd> excepth perhaps for the SVD2FORTH stuff 
16:42:24 <crest_> i would like a mecrisp image for the bluepill board and the source code to modify it that includes a usb serial and definitions for the hardware like your nice gpioa. words
16:43:43 <crest_> i want to look under the hood and understand what's happening
16:53:15 <crest_> so far i use freebsd devd to create syslinks to /dev/cuaU[0-9] based on the serial number
16:53:52 <crest_> giving me a stable name in /dev for my blue pills that i can use in a makefile
16:54:30 <crest_> and use revoke to kill any existing openings of the cuaU device
16:55:06 <crest_> followed by cat $> | picocom $(DEV)
16:55:25 <crest_> but it would be nice to have something like e4thcom claims to have
16:55:29 <crest_> *claims to be
16:55:53 <crest_> that understands the forth system well enough to stop at the first compiler error
16:58:10 <crest_> but it just stops after the first word
16:58:14 <crest_> \i multitask.fs  Uploading: ./multitask.fs
16:58:14 <crest_> \ -----------------------------------------------------------
16:58:14 <crest_> \   Cooperative Multitasking
16:58:14 <crest_> \ -----------------------------------------------------------
16:58:15 <crest_> \ Configuration:
16:58:17 <crest_> 128 cells constant stackspace ok. 
16:58:19 <crest_> at Line 7 in File ./multitask.fs 
17:01:29 <crest_> which is confusing, but could be a bug in the freebsd linux64 abi
17:13:02 <crest_> wait i could do it the proper unix way...
17:13:22 <crest_> just write a smart wrapper for ascii-xfr
17:23:51 <tpbsd> crest_, I can make you a new binary with pretty print for all the registers, usb and a corberstone if you like ?
17:24:07 <crest_> tpbsd: sure
17:24:16 <tpbsd> how much free flash do you think you'd need ?
17:24:30 <tpbsd> cause it will be fairly full by then
17:24:52 <crest_> 20-30k should be enough for my experiments
17:25:22 <tpbsd> okies, I'll start on it later today
17:25:48 <crest_> i've found a way to make picocom more bareable: a smarter send-cmd
17:26:09 <tpbsd> none of that is bearable to me
17:26:13 <crest_> just make $* followed by ascii-xfr -vs $* already helps
17:26:43 <tpbsd> this is a video of my system, it's a bit dated now and it's poorly done as it was one of my first, but youll get the idea
17:26:44 <crest_> what does screen offer?
17:27:21 <tpbsd> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDi-Nlz3-QA&t=5s
17:27:45 <crest_> thx
17:27:59 <tpbsd> screen is so superior that nothing else except purpose made scripts could compete
17:28:12 <tpbsd> superior for Mecrisp-Stellaris that is
17:29:09 <crest_> i've never liked screen because i had some run ins with one of the authors which disinclined me to trust any code he touched
17:29:28 <tpbsd> it's poorly maintained now
17:29:54 <tpbsd> the remote serial connections are the main attraction for me
17:30:35 <tpbsd> it's taken me years to finally arrive at what I wanted
17:31:23 <tpbsd> while I like the traditional Forths I cant use the traditional serial terminals at all, Id rather use C and arm-none-eabi
17:31:30 <tpbsd> along with gdb
17:31:45 <crest_> wait your setup allows make to inject into screen?
17:32:00 <tpbsd> thats a 'remote serial connection'
17:32:48 <tpbsd> i never use the screen terminal unless I'm doing some experiment with the hardware, but even then I usually do that via the editor
17:33:02 <crest_> your video demonstrated what your setup does
17:33:09 <tpbsd> cool
17:33:09 <crest_> but not how it does it
17:33:24 <tpbsd> but ill redo it, that video is poor in almost every way
17:33:43 <tpbsd> yeah thats because it's so specific to what I do
17:33:54 <tpbsd> Im happy to share but no one has asked
17:34:25 <tpbsd> probably because the Forth users that see it already have their own system
17:35:51 <tpbsd> crest_, this should get you going with screen :)
17:35:55 <tpbsd> #!/bin/sh										
17:35:55 <tpbsd>  PROJECT=`basename $PWD`									
17:35:55 <tpbsd>  LIBRARY=library		
17:35:55 <tpbsd>  FILE_NAME_X=$PROJECT-includes.fs							
17:35:55 <tpbsd>  FILE_NAME_Y=$PROJECT.fs									
17:35:55 <tpbsd>  # FILE_NAME_Z=printreg.fs							
17:35:57 <tpbsd>  screen -p $PROJECT -X stuff "compiletoram\n"						
17:35:59 <tpbsd>  # screen -p $PROJECT -X stuff "compiletoflash\n"					
17:36:01 <tpbsd>  #  screen -p $PROJECT -X stuff "forgetram\n"						
17:36:03 <tpbsd>  screen -p $PROJECT -X stuff "reset\n"							
17:36:05 <tpbsd>  screen -p $PROJECT -X stuff "72mhz\n"							
17:36:07 <tpbsd>  screen -p $PROJECT -X readreg x `./rcas.sh $FILE_NAME_X` $FILE_NAME_X.rcas.fs	
17:36:09 <tpbsd>  screen -p $PROJECT -X readreg y `./rcas.sh $FILE_NAME_Y` $FILE_NAME_Y.rcas.fs	
17:36:13 <tpbsd>  # screen -p $PROJECT -X readreg z `./rcas.sh $FILE_NAME_Z` $FILE_NAME_Z.rcas.fs	
17:36:15 <tpbsd>  screen -p $PROJECT -X paste x								
17:36:17 <tpbsd>  screen -p $PROJECT -X paste y								
17:36:19 <tpbsd>  # screen -p $PROJECT -X paste z							        
17:36:21 <tpbsd>  rm $FILE_NAME_X.rcas.fs									
17:36:23 <tpbsd>  rm $FILE_NAME_Y.rcas.fs
17:36:36 <crest_> thx
17:36:40 <tpbsd> rcas.sh is that comment removal script I pasted earlier
17:38:32 <crest_> so tmux has send-keys maybe i can combine tmux and picocom
17:38:51 <tpbsd> hehe
17:39:05 <tpbsd> or just unix utils ?
17:40:34 <tpbsd> crest_, another screen problem is that it's limited to 460800 baud 
17:40:47 <tpbsd> Id be using 1 - 2 mbs if I could
17:41:53 <tpbsd> crest I set out in 2014 to make a forth design env that was faster than Gcc/gdb on stm32, and I have that now so Im happy
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17:42:26 <crest_> sure a fast edit compile test cycle is important
17:42:34 <tpbsd> it uploads faster, it's heaps faster to design and debug because ... Forth
17:42:43 <crest_> and forth makes the testing a lot faster and more powerful than c
17:42:45 <tpbsd> it it to me
17:42:53 <crest_> and avoids the full cycle for each tiny change
17:43:08 <tpbsd> i can upload a 10k source file in about 2 seconds
17:43:20 <tpbsd> no openocd needed
17:43:49 <crest_> still a stall in your mental pipeline
17:44:07 <tpbsd> I do a full source upload, but I move Words that are debugged into the "includes.fs" file and they get written to flash
17:44:18 <crest_> but better than other eco systems e.g. compiling c++ with lots of templates
17:44:32 <tpbsd> i always execute development code from ram
17:44:59 <tpbsd> yeah, a stall is inevitable with a on chip Forth
17:45:23 <tabemann> oh
17:45:29 <tpbsd> we alos have a tethered Forth which is really interesting
17:45:40 <tabemann> btw, I got the ihex dumper to dump
17:45:43 <tpbsd> tabemann, during the upload cycle
17:46:44 <tpbsd> tabemann, nice
17:47:10 <tpbsd> tabemann, want a complex shell script to turn it into a binary ?
17:47:15 --- quit: Keshl (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
17:47:21 <tpbsd> it's made for gnu screen
17:47:45 <tpbsd> i run the script and get a binary, I dont have any manual intervention
17:48:46 <tabemann> the thing is that screen is of little use to me because I don't have RTS/CTS because not only does the USB on STM32L476 not support it, but my USB-serial fob doesn't have RTS or CTS pins either
17:49:24 <crest_> tabemann: a proper usb serial adapter can be had for < 5 USD or EUR
17:50:09 <tpbsd> or $1 aud
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17:50:40 <crest_> tpbsd: does that include shipping for a single board?
17:50:57 --- join: Keshl joined #forth
17:51:04 <tpbsd> Unix friendly CP2102 chipset dongle, with Rx, Tx, nRTS,nCTS and other control signals, including +5 and +3.3 volts available on pins or holes for pins or wires to be soldered. Usually under $2 on eBay, and the most useful model in my opinion
17:51:33 <tpbsd> https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/_images/usb-ttl-6pin-cp2102.jpg
17:51:47 <tpbsd> crest_, no
17:52:06 <tpbsd> crest_, my dongles came from China and I buy 10x at a time
17:52:14 <crest_> can you switch between 5v and 3.3v?
17:52:34 <tpbsd> they output +5 and +3 
17:52:48 <tpbsd> just use what you want
17:53:45 <tpbsd> tabemann, I will do a patch for providing RTS on the F407 soon
17:53:47 <tabemann> mine has GND, RX, TX, +5 and +3.3 IIRC
17:54:00 <tabemann> cool beans
17:54:25 <crest_> tpbsd: which dev board would you recommend to get away from the blue pill?
17:54:40 <tpbsd> tabemann, yeah, many do only that, they usually have the other signals on the chip but it needs SMT skills to solder wires to them
17:54:50 <tpbsd> crest_, ouch thats a hard one
17:55:03 <tpbsd> crest_, does it have to be STM32 ?
17:55:15 <tabemann> I own two different DISCOVERY boards the STM32L476 and the STM32F407
17:55:20 <crest_> not really
17:55:22 <tpbsd> i ask because Nordic are pretty impressive 
17:55:33 <tpbsd> and you get wireless
17:55:39 <crest_> it would only be for personal projects
17:56:02 <crest_> but it would be nice if they're cheap enough to leave them in a project
17:57:10 <crest_> 256k flash, 32k ram and bluetooth radio does sound great
17:57:12 <tabemann> one setup I've heard of people doing is doing something like a Cortex-M for their core processing and then wire it up to an ESP8266 for wireless
17:57:20 <tpbsd> have a look at nrf52832 ?
17:57:23 <crest_> serial over bluetooth would be nice :-P
17:57:40 <tpbsd> tabemann, ESP8xxxx ewww
17:58:00 <tpbsd> plus the nordic cortex's have some excellent facilities
17:58:31 <tpbsd> tabemann, you get 3 micrograms of CoV-19 with every ESPxxx ;-)
17:59:02 <tabemann> tpbsd: from the way I've heard it put with the ESP8266 is that the ESP8266 is used essentially as a peripheral to enable wireless
17:59:30 <tpbsd> Ive found that Chinese homegrown products really suck. American tech is light years ahead
17:59:32 <crest_> tpbsd: esp32 :-P
18:00:00 <tpbsd> tabemann, it is but it's a waste of space imho
18:00:28 <tpbsd> the nordic stuff has wireless and is seriously good by comparison
18:00:28 <crest_> tabemann: but for a lot of applications the esp chips are good enough
18:00:40 <crest_> they're cheap enough and include wifi support
18:00:49 <tpbsd> the only readon espxxxx is so popular is because arduino users could use them
18:01:25 <crest_> and because its easy to connect to wifi and has enough resources for tcp
18:01:52 <tpbsd> dont do it tabemann, the esp will drive you so nuts you'll jump out the window
18:01:53 <crest_> its fine unless you're battery powered
18:02:10 <tpbsd> ignore this undercover ESPxxxxx salesman!
18:02:21 <tabemann> I'll have to remember about Nordic
18:02:22 <tabemann> lol
18:02:29 <crest_> but you have to build ontop the existing crappy libs because the hardware is so buggy
18:02:51 <tpbsd> tabemann, zepto fort can be easily ported to the nordic I think
18:03:10 <crest_> i remeber the the SHA2017 badge team wanted to melt down the chips and their creators
18:03:17 <tpbsd> and of course the nrf52832 has a Mecrisp-Stellaris binary
18:03:23 <tpbsd> hahahh
18:03:29 <tabemann> lol
18:03:47 <tpbsd> I have worked with a few nordic Mecrisp-Stellaris users and was a bit jealous of that chip
18:04:18 <tpbsd> crest_, Im stuck on stm32f051 as I have 480 chips in stock
18:04:43 <tpbsd> and I love using them, way to late for me to switch to the nordic
18:04:49 <tabemann> why did you buy so many?
18:05:17 <tpbsd> AVENET had them for $0.56 ea in 2014 adn the lot was a batch of 480
18:05:40 <tpbsd> they price was for a single unit, but I wanted a lifetime supply
18:05:53 <crest_> how many do you have left?
18:05:58 <tpbsd> theyre 32 pin UFN
18:06:09 <tpbsd> um ... 478
18:06:22 <tabemann> they're a sunk cost!
18:06:28 <crest_> ignore them
18:06:31 <tabemann> as economists would put it
18:06:53 <crest_> if you need <10 chips order 10 chips next time
18:07:08 <tpbsd> they came in sealed aluminium bags, on chip carriers with moisture dots, full of nitrogen and a complete supply history
18:07:13 <tpbsd> nope
18:07:39 <tpbsd> I like in Australia, Ive ben doing embedded since 1974 and I know a great chip when I see one
18:07:53 <tpbsd> like = live
18:07:53 <crest_> which is great if you want to use them for anything safety critical
18:08:45 <tpbsd> it can be very hard to get stuff here, and considering CoV-19, how easy will it be to get chips for the next few years ?
18:09:40 <tpbsd> plus those same chips are about 3x as expensive right now
18:09:59 <tpbsd> (if you can get them)
18:10:04 <crest_> great but how important is that if you've used just a handful?
18:10:24 <tpbsd> in 2014 I had no isea how many Id use
18:10:39 <tpbsd> this is australia ...
18:10:57 <crest_> but isn't your time more important?
18:11:20 <tpbsd> there are none available here, I cant get fedex to send me some overnight unles I want to pay $100 +
18:11:40 <crest_> is it really cheaper use external support chips for bluetooth etc.?
18:11:46 <tpbsd> sure, my time is the most important thing to me, especially at age 66
18:12:24 <crest_> okay i'm spoiled by 1-2 day shipping and affordable overnight shipping for for a lot of things in germany
18:12:32 <tpbsd> it's never cheaper to use external chips except perhaps for a hobbyist
18:12:50 <crest_> and are you a hobbist these days?
18:12:59 <tpbsd> yeah, retired mostly
18:13:23 <tpbsd> i still make gear, cant help it after a lifetime of doing so
18:13:48 <tpbsd> I have a ton of projects
18:14:07 <crest_> the nRF52840 dk board is a bit expensive to just put into hobby projects like a door sensor
18:14:33 <tpbsd> and I'm still in the infatuation stage with Forth having only started with it in 2014
18:14:45 <tpbsd> crest_, hmm maybe thats the wrong one
18:14:48 <crest_> the annoying fact is that at the price point of 40-50€ you can grab a raspberry pi (or some other pi)
18:14:55 <tpbsd> the units people were using cost $10
18:15:25 <tpbsd> maybe this one: Nordicsemi nRFgo Starter Kit 	nRF51822
18:15:30 <crest_> and that runs forth as well almost every other language you want to throw at it
18:17:10 <tpbsd> crest_, have you met matthias koch ?
18:18:14 <tabemann> back
18:20:33 <tabemann> I'd buy a more expensive board just because I can't see myself soldering
18:20:53 <tabemann> so I'd opt for a board with pins on it over a board for holes for soldering
18:21:07 <tpbsd> tabemann, sure
18:21:14 <crest_> tpbsd: yes i met him at 32c3
18:21:40 <crest_> he gave talk on mecrisp for msp430
18:21:47 <tpbsd> tabemann, and you have some reasonable boards, even if the discovery boards are pretty cheap
18:22:04 <tpbsd> crest_, yes, it's a shame that he is virtually deaf
18:22:39 <tpbsd> tabemann, there are more expensive boards that are really nice, gold pins, plenty of room
18:22:50 <tpbsd> Olimex make some of them
18:23:13 <tpbsd> but the discos and nusleos have all the basics
18:23:22 <tpbsd> and are dirt cheap
18:23:26 <tpbsd> nucleos
18:23:27 <crest_> tpbsd: https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7520-compileroptimierungen_fur_forth_im_microcontroller
18:23:33 <tabemann> the only things these boards really lack which I'd like is wireless
18:23:39 <tpbsd> crest_, Ive seen it
18:24:09 <tpbsd> tabemann, then a nordic board may be in your future ?
18:24:21 <crest_> tpbsd: the last few years we managed to get a good team of volunteer translators for all german and english presentations
18:24:30 <tpbsd> crest_, nice!
18:25:03 <tpbsd> matthias gets by, his written English is very good
18:25:30 <tabemann> tpbsd: possibly
18:25:43 <tpbsd> tabemann, the ESP stuff is pretty horrible imho
18:25:46 <crest_> but the real time translations widen the audience and relief the pressure on speakers to present in english
18:26:40 <tpbsd> tabemann, for instance the flash is loaded into ram before it runs but the flash is a lot bigger than the fam ...
18:26:43 <tpbsd> ram
18:27:12 <tpbsd> crest_, yes, thats very organised, just what I'd expect
18:27:29 <crest_> i see you haven't been there
18:27:57 <crest_> its quite chaotic and a lot of things go wrong, but there are enough people to catch most of it in time
18:27:57 <tpbsd> crest_, hahah, no Ive only ever ben to Hongkong on a technical course in 1985
18:28:15 <tpbsd> crest_, I drive a Audi 80 quatro
18:29:05 <MrMobius> ive often wished for a chip with a lot of ram and small flash but virtually all microcontrollers are the opposite
18:29:08 <tpbsd> it's nothing special in germany but theyre rare in Australia
18:29:26 <tpbsd> MrMobius, true
18:29:44 <tabemann> these nRFgo boards are expensive
18:30:29 <crest_> and not really useful at that price point for hobbists
18:31:01 <tabemann> whereas these disco boards are cheap enough I can easily afford two of them
18:31:05 <crest_> because there are cheaper boards with more features (and a higher power consumption as well)
18:31:06 <tpbsd>     Generic evaluation and development platform for Nordic ultra low power radios
18:31:07 <tpbsd>     Built-in support for nRFProbe hardware debug solution for Nordic radios with embedded microcontrollers
18:31:07 <tpbsd>     Two motherboards with standard socket for nRFgo radio modules
18:31:07 <tpbsd>     USB, RS232, ISP and hardware debug interfaces
18:31:07 <tpbsd>     Multiple power supply options: battery, external supply and USB
18:31:07 <tpbsd>     Multiple I/O ports and buttons for prototyping
18:31:09 <tpbsd>     On-board flash I/O controller provides USB interface to PC
18:31:13 <tpbsd>     Upgradable board firmware
18:31:15 <tpbsd>     Four 10-wire patch cables and eight 2-wire patch cables included in the kit
18:31:17 <tpbsd>     Seven segment status LED for board ID
18:31:19 <tpbsd>     Battery pack for three AAA batteries
18:31:21 <tpbsd>     Extension module socket for advanced prototyping
18:31:23 <tpbsd>     One nRFgo Display extension module with 16x2 alphanumeric display and joystick
18:31:25 <tpbsd>     nRFgo Studio for RF evaluation and testing
18:31:27 <tpbsd>     Auto detection and hot plugging of nRFgo radio modules
18:31:29 <tpbsd>     Rich set of configurable RF and link tests
18:31:31 <tabemann> whereas the cost of the nRFgo boards is such that unless I have a really good reason to own one....
18:31:31 <tpbsd>     Easy access to available radio module configurations
18:31:33 <tpbsd>     Comprehensive set of documentation
18:31:35 <tpbsd> you kids ....
18:31:43 <crest_> which is worth it
18:31:53 <tpbsd> in 1974 we were paying $287 aud for 1 16 bit MCU
18:32:07 <crest_> but its the classic old style dev board
18:32:12 <tpbsd> the 6800 was $178 USD
18:32:45 <tpbsd> no clock, no peripherals, 8 bits, multiple voltages, 1Mhz
18:32:59 <crest_> but hardware got cheaper and if less then optimally designed boards can be had for between $2 and $12
18:33:19 <crest_> and all it takes to make them work is open source software that was already written
18:33:43 <tpbsd> well the blue pill is an anomaly, but I grew up with the 6800 pr`icing
18:34:02 <tpbsd> but thats not the board the nordic mecrisp users are using
18:34:25 <tpbsd> theirs cost $10 and has a usb connector on one end
18:34:35 <crest_> a nanopi neo2 costs just $20
18:34:42 <tpbsd> it's the size of a usb stick
18:35:07 <tpbsd> yeah, thats for broadcomm lovers 
18:35:10 <crest_> that includes a quad core cortex a53
18:35:19 <crest_> allwinner h5 in this case
18:35:30 <tpbsd> and and a untouchable sustem supervisor
18:35:49 <tpbsd> oops, Im out of date already!
18:35:59 <crest_> https://www.friendlyarm.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=180
18:36:23 <tpbsd> not for me, Im small embedded only, lots of IO, machine control, no wifi
18:36:29 <tabemann> the thing is this - unless I need wireless, I have little reason to justify buying a nordic board when an STM disco board does everything else just as well and is much cheaper
18:36:35 <crest_> https://www.friendlyarm.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=69&product_id=132&sort=p.price&order=ASC
18:37:28 <crest_> 256mb ram, four cores, ethernet and a micro sd socket
18:38:08 <crest_> for most hobby projects power and long term availablity aren't that important ... until they are
18:39:33 <tabemann> that's essentially a lower price, lower capability version of the raspberry pi
18:39:46 <crest_> exactly
18:40:16 <tpbsd> this is the one I'm thinking of: nRF52840 MDK USB Dongle
18:40:27 <crest_> and most allwinner chips are supported by freebsd
18:40:32 <tpbsd> have a look at the pricing for that
18:40:36 <tabemann> I own a raspberry pi but haven't opened the packaging because I'd rather work on something that can truly run on the metal rather than something that needs an OS to work, because then I might as well use a PC
18:40:52 <crest_> the larger ones are even selfhosting in a meaningful way
18:41:04 <tpbsd> tabemann, I have a few rpi's but use them as higher end running Linux
18:41:21 <crest_> tabemann: the original raspberry pi is a deeply flawed design
18:41:31 <tpbsd> https://forum.mysensors.org/topic/9717/everything-nrf52840
18:41:37 <crest_> the gpu bootstraps the cpu
18:41:54 <tpbsd> that's the guy who we helped port Mecrisp-Stellaris to that chip
18:42:42 <crest_> tpbsd: that looks a lot more reasonable
18:43:15 <crest_> i don't need a two line lcd display, dpad input, piezo buzzer etc.
18:43:33 <tpbsd> thats the one i was thinking of, and that MCU is crazy
18:44:01 <tpbsd> fast, heaps of flash, wireless, and the cortex-m peripherals are really nice
18:44:13 <tpbsd> the ones that nordic use
18:44:56 <tpbsd> I mean any stm32 is great, but maybe nordic are just a bit better
18:45:10 <tpbsd> NXP is also excellent, but pricier
18:45:20 <crest_> wait is the 802.15.4 radio also zigbee compatible?
18:45:21 <MrMobius> heh, are the peripherals any less confusing than other cortex m stuff from other manufacturers?
18:45:30 <tpbsd> crest_, stay away from ATMEL SAM, their flash is a problem for Forth
18:45:42 <crest_> tpbsd: what's so bad about their flash?
18:46:03 <crest_> because it would be intersting to mess with my ikea tradfri lights from a forth system
18:46:07 <tpbsd> crest_, min flash size is too big
18:46:22 <crest_> and to little sram or just a waste of money?
18:46:33 <tpbsd> it's just the flash
18:47:10 <tpbsd> matthias refuses to port to it for just that reason
18:47:57 <tabemann> for Forth you want a minimum flash write size of something like 16 bytes or less
18:48:10 <crest_> oh flash write size
18:48:21 <crest_> not total flash capacity
18:48:34 <tabemann> and even for 16 bytes you want some kind of write deferral system like what I've coded for STM32L476
18:49:30 <crest_> i assumed it was just a core with 8k sram and 1mb flash or something like that
18:49:41 <tpbsd> matthias spent weeks with SAM trying to work around this
18:50:03 <tpbsd> crest_, it's the SAM flash controller thats the problem
18:50:45 <tabemann> STM32F407 has the problem of really give flash erasure blocks, but that's not quite as bad
18:50:50 <tabemann> *big
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18:51:09 <crest_> an additional sub ghz radio for longer range would be nice
18:51:10 --- nick: boru` -> boru
18:54:18 <MrMobius> you usually have a lot more than 8k sram on those arm chips that have 1mb flash
18:54:39 <crest_> MrMobius: exactly
18:55:07 <crest_> it would be a waste of flash
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18:56:58 <tpbsd> yeah, 196kN on the 32F407
18:57:08 <tpbsd> yeah, 196kB on the 32F407
18:57:19 <tpbsd> of ram
18:58:19 <tpbsd> The nRF52840 Micro Dev Kit USB Dongle features a programmable user button, RGB LED, up to 12 GPIOs and 2.4G Chip antenna on board.
18:58:20 <tpbsd> The USB Dongle can be used as a low-cost Bluetooth5/Tread/802.15.4/ANT/2.4GHz multi-protocol node or development board. Alternatively, the USB Dongle can be used as a Network Co-Processor(NCP) with a simple connection to a PC or other USB enabled device.
18:58:55 <crest_> at first glance it can be a lot of other things too
18:59:00 <tpbsd> sure
18:59:07 <crest_> you just have to solder a few headers to it
18:59:13 <tpbsd> thats a adafruit advert I think
19:00:16 <crest_> and you could solder a cable to the usb pads to make life easier until the radio works for everything
19:00:54 <tpbsd> it's not tempting you is it ???
19:01:02 <crest_> it sure is
19:01:22 <tpbsd> have you had a look at the chip specs yet ?
19:01:40 <crest_> i have https://infocenter.nordicsemi.com/pdf/nRF52840_PS_v1.1.pdf open
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19:02:05 <tpbsd> :)
19:03:36 <crest_> i never meant to say that those cheap buggy boards are a good solution just that they are available and easy to get started with
19:04:37 <tpbsd> The ARM® Cortex-M4 processor with floating-point unit (FPU) has a 32-bit instruction set (Thumb®-2
19:04:37 <tpbsd> technology) that implements a superset of 16- and 32-bit instructions to maximize code density and
19:04:38 <tpbsd> performance.
19:05:01 <crest_> its not hard to write an image on a micro sd card, ssh into the system and modify python examples
19:05:41 <tpbsd> crest_, actually I hated the 'bluepill' from the start and dont have any, but after writing the diag binaries on my site, Ive come to appreciate parts of the STM32F103 and it's still *very* capable
19:06:54 <crest_> tpbsd: i lack the experience to compare it other modern chips because i'm a sysadmin and high level programmer by trade
19:07:00 <tpbsd> crest_, I still have twenty STM32F103's from AVENET in sealed aluminium bag full of nitrogen that I'll probably never use, paid $3.50 a chip at the time
19:07:33 <tpbsd> crest_, aha, I thought youd be in that category
19:07:49 <tpbsd> crest_, but you seem to be pretty good at hardware also ?
19:08:32 <tabemann> back
19:08:44 <crest_> not really but i do enjoy optimizing code and playing with obscure systems
19:09:22 <tpbsd> crest_, Im at the complete other end of that scale
19:09:43 <crest_> e.g. i have a rca 1802 membership card, but haven't gotten around to building a programmer for it
19:10:03 <crest_> and toggling programs in in binary gets frustrating quickly
19:10:13 <tpbsd> tabemann, the nordic stuff is M4 as well, so you could port zeptoforth easy enuf
19:10:22 <crest_> but the rca 1802 instruction set is so insane
19:10:41 <tpbsd> I had one a long time ago, threw the chip out iirc
19:10:44 <crest_> and relatively well suited to forth
19:11:11 <crest_> or i would be better to say you can't run anything but forth on such a strange design
19:11:18 <tpbsd> it's amazing how many programmers are interested in old hardware, I *hate* old hardware
19:11:35 <tpbsd> probably as I *had* to use it at the time
19:11:48 <tabemann> tpbsd: the only thing that makes me question the wisdom of that is just how much those boards cost
19:11:57 <tpbsd> so naturally I *love* new hardware
19:12:09 <crest_> i tought myself assembler with a 1802 emulator because i couldn't get ahold of introductory texts on powerpc assembler
19:12:29 <tpbsd> tabemann, did you see the nRF52840 Micro Dev Kit USB Dongle ?
19:12:31 <crest_> tabemann: the dongle costs just 10 bucks which is fine
19:12:54 <crest_> and someone already go a radio repl working: https://github.com/rabbithat/nRF52_wireless_Forth_REPL
19:13:29 <tabemann> tpbsd: no I didn't
19:15:14 <tpbsd> crest_, there is a more detailed account of his Forth journey here: https://sourceforge.net/p/mecrisp/discussion/general/thread/e29549a8d5/
19:15:52 <crest_> tpbsd: after the rollercoster of the last few years i just want to run when i see sourceforge
19:15:58 <tpbsd> tabemann, it's a bargain for $10 considering the MCU and wireless + usb
19:16:19 <crest_> adding malware^Wadware to opensource software installers
19:16:26 <tpbsd> crest_, I run when I see github
19:16:34 <rdrop-exit> https://sourceforge.net/p/mecrisp/discussion/general/thread/e29549a8d5/
19:17:03 <rdrop-exit> oops
19:17:20 <tpbsd> rdrop-exit, ZEn Guru of Forth!
19:17:20 <rdrop-exit> good morning Forthwrights
19:17:44 <rdrop-exit> hello Forth Master Technician (tm)!
19:17:50 <tpbsd> hehe
19:17:52 <crest_> gn8
19:18:11 <tpbsd> rdrop-exit, crest_ is using one of my older Forth bootable binaries!
19:18:21 <rdrop-exit> cool
19:18:34 <tpbsd> i think crest_ makes #2 !
19:18:45 <rdrop-exit> hehe
19:18:57 <tpbsd> #1 bombed badly, arduino had melted his brain cells
19:19:24 <tpbsd> poor guy, I think it drove him to drink
19:21:51 <rdrop-exit> catching up on the logs, you guys had a high traffic night
19:22:54 <tpbsd> we did
19:23:34 <tpbsd> we had a 'hardware night' on #forth, something that hasnt happened since 1969 when Chuck was here ;-)
19:24:17 <tpbsd> tabemann, acyually that high quality nordic board with lcd etc is probably EXACTLY what you need as you cant solder
19:24:22 <MrMobius> hmm, 1802 assembly is probably not bad with macros
19:24:49 <MrMobius> always thought loading in 16 bit constants 8 bits at a time looks daunting otherwise
19:25:26 <rdrop-exit> 1802 is funky but fun
19:26:07 <rdrop-exit> (as an intellectual exercise, wouldn't want an 1802 for anything else)
19:26:15 <tpbsd> too funky for me, I bought a chip in the 70's and when I read the datasheet I ran around screaming and rending my clothes
19:26:50 <tabemann> back
19:27:38 <tpbsd> tabemann, actually that high quality nordic board with lcd etc is probably EXACTLY what you need as you cant solder
19:28:00 <tabemann> I just don't want to shell out $100+ for a single board
19:28:19 <tabemann> especially since I see myself buying a bunch of boards in the near futrue
19:28:20 <tpbsd> The COVID-19 pandemic has become one of the most complex and unpredictable events to affect our world in our lifetime. IBM has expanded the 2020 Call for Code Challenge to seek innovative solutions to the pandemic's impacts.
19:28:20 <tpbsd> Developers and problem solvers: join us in building open source solutions that make an immediate and lasting impact.
19:28:20 <tpbsd> The deadline to submit your solutions is July 31st.
19:28:36 <tpbsd> and win $100,000 USD
19:29:02 <tpbsd> tabemann, but this will be a quality board the like of which youve never seen
19:29:12 <rdrop-exit> veltas, p@ i.e. port fetch, pb@ for port byte fetch
19:29:50 <tpbsd> tabemann, in fact it's TWO boards
19:29:51 <tabemann> tpbsd: I'm going to just get that USB dongle for now, maybe get the uber high quality nordic board later
19:30:06 <tpbsd> tabemann :)
19:30:44 <tpbsd> tabemann, uber quality and uber packed with resources
19:31:16 <tpbsd> tabemann, it comes with all the leads you need, everything
19:31:33 <tpbsd> it's like night and day to other cheap boars
19:40:13 <tabemann> back
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19:40:21 <rdrop-exit> wb
19:40:34 * tabemann just purchased the dongle
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19:40:56 <MrMobius> covid 19 has been very helpful for my hobby productivity :P
19:41:38 <tabemann> it hasn't been for me, because my work expects me to work as if I were employed in the normal fashion, but just at home instead
19:41:56 <tpbsd> tabemann, at least you get paid for it ?
19:42:06 <tabemann> yes
19:42:18 <rdrop-exit> Not mine, I've been doing stuff around the condo
19:42:23 <tpbsd> tabemann, nice, sadly nordic may seduce you away from stm!
19:42:39 <tabemann> lol
19:43:03 <tpbsd> rdrop-exit, if you go outside Duarte may be there with his M6 and shoot at you!
19:43:06 <tpbsd> M16
19:43:36 <rdrop-exit> I duck when I'm on the balcony
19:44:04 <tpbsd> hahah
19:44:09 <tabemann> I hope they at least allow you to go to the grocery store
19:44:23 <rdrop-exit> The neighborhood is so quiet since the lockdown
19:44:27 <tpbsd> tabemann, only id he's faster than bullets
19:44:48 <rdrop-exit> We've been ordering groceries online when needed
19:45:02 <tpbsd> same here
19:45:26 <rdrop-exit> Even though we have 8 or 9 shopping centers within walking distance
19:45:46 <tpbsd> initially I could only order a 'basic box' for $80 and the supermarket puts whatever they like in it
19:45:48 <tabemann> here the grocery stores are still open but they're advising people to stay six feet apart and in the lines by the checkouts they put markers down telling people where to stand while they wait
19:46:23 <tpbsd> the post office guy delivered today, no mask, no nothing
19:46:33 <rdrop-exit> we get fresh fruits and vegetables delivered from the countryside
19:46:49 <tpbsd> I get fresh air delivered from the countryside
19:46:53 <tabemann> nice
19:47:12 <rdrop-exit> better than volcano ash
19:47:24 <tpbsd> it wafts from across the farmers paddocks across my street
19:47:29 <tpbsd> thats a fact!
19:52:00 <tabemann> why is it that the docs for the STM32F407VG say that it has 192K of RAM, but when I configure it to use 192K of RAM it crashes
19:54:29 <tpbsd> $30000  ?
19:55:28 <tpbsd> tabemann, the nRF52840 contains 1 MB of flash and 256 kB of RAM 
19:56:06 <tabemann> I just wrote a RAM test
19:56:20 <tabemann> it crashes when it attempts to read from $20020000
19:56:35 <tabemann> indicating that that's the actual top of the RAM
19:58:46 <tpbsd> .equ Kernschutzadresse,     0x00008000 @ Darunter wird niemals etwas geschrieben ! Mecrisp core never writes flash below this address.
19:58:46 <tpbsd> .equ FlashDictionaryAnfang, 0x00008000 @ 32 kb für den Kern reserviert...          32 kb Flash reserved for core.
19:58:46 <tpbsd> .equ FlashDictionaryEnde,   0x00100000 @ 992 kb Platz für das Flash-Dictionary    992 kb Flash available. Porting: Change this !
19:58:46 <tpbsd> .equ Backlinkgrenze,        RamAnfang  @ Ab dem Ram-Start.
20:01:11 <tpbsd> lol, mathias says 992 kB and has allocated 1048576 ram for it
20:01:25 <tpbsd> oops thats flash!
20:02:09 <tpbsd> and thats right, matthias never makes a mistake!
20:03:36 <tpbsd> tabemann, ok, matthias also says 128 kb ram
20:03:51 <tpbsd> it must be a error in the doc
20:05:12 <tabemann> and mind you this was from more of a technical overview rather than a true datasheet
20:08:42 <tabemann> okay, well, I'm gonna hit the sack, so g'night
20:09:04 <rdrop-exit> bonne nuit tabemann, stay healthy
20:15:53 <tpbsd> night tabemann 
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.04.05