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12:46:18 <crab1> Hiya folks
12:46:58 <jackdaniel> o/
12:47:19 <crab1> what's up?
12:47:44 <jackdaniel> corona, clim and a can of beer, nothing forthy I'm afraid :)
12:48:35 <crab1> nothing forthy at my end either, I need to parse JSON though :(
12:48:44 <crab1> I hate JSON
12:55:07 <crab1> also I'm getting months old statements in the mail
12:57:46 * jackdaniel recommends a can of beer
12:58:09 <crab1> I can't drink beer :(
12:58:34 <jackdaniel> underaged or the health  issues?
12:59:27 <crab1> I have celiac disease, and beer has gluten from wheat
13:01:05 <jackdaniel> that must be annoying for you
13:01:18 <crab1> yeah
13:01:23 <crab1> I am also underage but
13:01:32 <crab1> that doesn't mean I don't drink ;)
13:01:35 <jackdaniel> hey, nobody said "xor"
13:02:47 <crab1> It sucks too because before I was 16 I had no issues and had the opportunity to eat/drink whatever I wanted, and then that was taken away
13:03:22 <jackdaniel> life brings more dissapointments with time
13:03:29 <jackdaniel> but also plenty of joy, no worries :)
13:04:03 <crab1> Hopefully, there are lots of disappointments
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14:07:29 <dne> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten-free_beer :)
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16:05:58 <crab1> Good evening forth folks
16:07:58 <Zarutian_HTC> good evening. Been looking for the name genarator code used in Final Fantasy ?V or VII? on the GameBoy
16:08:57 <Zarutian_HTC> had an old bookmark but have lost it and expect it to have succumbed to linkrot
16:09:49 <Zarutian_HTC> it basically took in prng seed and came back with a name string
16:11:20 <Zarutian_HTC> trying to google or duckduckgo for it only turns up the GB roms and irrelevant search noise
16:12:28 <Zarutian_HTC> I probably have to dig through the disassembly of those roms to find it again
16:12:56 <Kumool> Zarutian_HTC: have you looked in romhacking.net?
16:13:32 <Zarutian_HTC> nope but I will
16:13:42 <Zarutian_HTC> now in fact
16:14:13 <Kumool> everything is there
16:14:15 <Kumool> or umm, that other website I forgot about
16:16:08 <crab1> Hm I've never played with that stuff
16:16:19 <crab1> too proprietary for me :(
16:16:30 <Kumool> Zarutian_HTC: https://tcrf.net/
16:16:43 <Kumool> bless tcrf
16:17:00 <Kumool> crab1: everything that's fun is proprietary
16:17:50 <Kumool> theres no FFV for the gameboy though
16:19:10 <crab1> "everything that's fin is proprietary" how
16:19:24 <crab1> s/fin/fun
16:20:09 <Zarutian_HTC> Kumool: you sure?
16:20:29 <Kumool> greed crab1, greed
16:21:01 <crab1> greed is no fun
16:21:52 <Kumool> greed is fun for the instantiator I guess
16:22:21 <crab1> Maybe for a time, but it probably doesn't remain fun
16:22:42 <Kumool> Zarutian_HTC: and I'm not sure of anything, if however you had found a name generator and the bastard didn't release it in github or romhacking, f that guy
16:23:17 <Kumool> crab1: video games are mostly propietary, which are quite fun
16:23:26 <crab1> greed is usually rooted in like fear or feelings of insecurity so it can't be too much fun in the end
16:23:52 <Kumool> for when having fun, means just that and not having a headache
16:23:56 <Zarutian_HTC> the issue was that github had not existed at the time when the person had extracted the generator from the rom
16:24:09 <Kumool> Zarutian_HTC: sourceforge probably did
16:24:28 <Zarutian_HTC> not sure if romhacking existed back then
16:25:09 <crab1> how long ago was this?
16:25:15 <Kumool> gosh, is it in some geocities websites or some sort of yahoo group then?
16:25:22 <Zarutian_HTC> the thing is, the extracted name algo had been translated into simple javascript
16:25:41 <Kumool> that's nice
16:25:53 <Zarutian_HTC> i am currently going thriugh rom maps of the ff
16:25:55 <Zarutian_HTC> s
16:26:46 <Zarutian_HTC> just mad at meself for not saving that thing on my computer
16:27:20 <Kumool> why do you want it btw?
16:27:29 <Kumool> its weird to want a name generator for gameboy
16:28:08 <Zarutian_HTC> function naming to annoy the crap of a frenimy of mine
16:28:28 <Kumool> also why ask here? go to like, the romhacking discord or some emulator channel
16:28:40 <Zarutian_HTC> eh, it was part of the text compression used
16:29:41 <Zarutian_HTC> I am thinking about porting the thing to Forth too ;)
16:30:12 <crab1> which forth(s)
16:30:17 <crab1> do most of yall use
16:30:44 <Zarutian_HTC> and I wasnt actually asking just saying what I was up to ;þ
16:31:12 <Kumool> ah
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16:31:14 <Kumool> :)
16:31:16 <Kumool> well, nevertheless, the people there are more helpful... well, they'll at least know more there
16:31:33 <Zarutian_HTC> crab1: a moddified and ported eForth
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16:32:21 <crab1> I need to write a forth for use with 9front
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16:32:23 <Zarutian_HTC> Kumool: naah you actually were helpfull by pointing out romhacking
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16:49:04 <crab1> welcome
16:51:09 <Kumool> crab1: is 9front worth using?
16:51:44 <crab1> in a lot of ways, yes
16:52:05 <crab1> but it's gonna take some work to make it my main system
16:55:12 <crab1> It doesn't have: Matrix(messaging platform), Most languages I'd like to use, Can't do online banking as far as I can tell, not sure if I have any way to screencast, doesn't support playback of any video format
16:55:39 <crab1> and that's just a few of the missing things I make use of on a regular basis
16:56:09 <Kumool> basically useless
16:57:31 <tabemann> hey guys
16:57:42 <crab1> browsing pages without javascript works no problem, my hardware is mostly supported, email is easy, a lot is there
16:57:52 <crab1> tabemann: hi
16:57:52 <Kumool> better use a vmware or something
16:58:18 <crab1> Kumool: I don't like to do that
16:58:28 <Kumool> neither do I
16:58:41 <crab1> I want a consistent interface
16:58:46 <Kumool> how about the community? is it still a bunch A's and D's?
16:59:47 <crab1> I have had mixed results with the community, I think there are a couple bad apples but most of them seem nice
17:02:22 <crab1> At any rate I certainly prefer it to linux/gnu operating systems and it's growing taller than the bsds for me if I can just get it to be usable
17:03:44 <tabemann> I tend to want something that can run firefox
17:04:10 <crab1> firefox is a mess
17:04:12 <tabemann> which allows for gnu/linux and xbsd, but not stuff like 9front
17:04:44 <Kumool> the web is a mess, but its a necessary mess
17:04:46 <tabemann> unfortunately, today is an age where one cannot get by without javascript
17:05:18 <Kumool> hopefully more and more people give gopher a try.
17:05:34 <crab1> I am too stubborn to accept those sorts of absolutes @tabemann
17:05:58 <tabemann> I have real things I have to deal with, like my banks and my daughter's school's website
17:06:56 <crab1> I have banking to do too, I'm not sure how that's gonna go since my credit card is through an online-only bank
17:07:12 <tabemann> one of my banks even complains about firefox, but it at least it lets me use it
17:07:46 <tabemann> I also need a platform on which I can run gas, openocd, and gdb
17:08:12 <tabemann> which, again, includes gnu/linux and xbsd but probably excludes 9front
17:08:44 <Zarutian_HTC> what is this 9front?
17:08:54 <tabemann> a plan 9 fork
17:09:08 <crab1> it would exclude 9front yes. why specifically gas and gdb?
17:09:36 <tabemann> because they're part of the arm-non-eabi toolchain
17:09:48 <Kumool> considering everything is done online and theres a pandemic, throwing firefox out with no support is not commendable
17:10:16 <tabemann> I really do not want to write my own thumb-2 assembler
17:10:54 <tabemann> and without a compiler/assembler/linker/debugger toolchain, what do I write and debug that with
17:11:12 <Zarutian_HTC> tabemann: right, you are hacking on STM32, no?
17:11:19 <tabemann> Zarutian_HTC, yes
17:11:30 <crab1> I haven't thrown anything out, I still have a system running gnu, I'm just spending time to figure how usable I can get 9front to be for myself
17:11:54 <tabemann> got zeptoforth working for l476 and mostly working for f407
17:12:24 <tpbsd> Welcome to zeptoforth ok
17:12:45 <tpbsd> happy2
17:12:45 <tpbsd> only 90 mA ! 
17:12:45 <tpbsd>  ok
17:13:48 <tabemann> tpbsd: if you hadn't noticed, I put in a hack to shrink the size of the compiled basic.fs a bit
17:13:56 <crab1> oh hello tp
17:14:14 <tabemann> I bet it'll have more impact on the l476, because the l476 has bigger flash pages than the f407
17:14:14 <tpbsd> tabemann, I have my own source shrinker
17:14:34 <tabemann> btw, hey tp
17:14:51 <tpbsd> oh, it shrinks the binaries you mean
17:14:57 <tpbsd> yes tabemann 
17:15:17 <tabemann> tpbsd: what this is that it was putting a coda of <address of last word>$DEADBEEF after each single word compiled to flash
17:15:48 <tpbsd> tabemann, I use a script that strips all comments and blank lines and concatenates all the source files
17:15:52 <tabemann> and what I did was eliminated that, when compress-flash mode was set on, and then only write it out when doing end-compress-flash afterwards
17:16:39 <tpbsd> $DEADBEEF did what ?
17:17:00 <tabemann> however I also added something called commit-flash, which is called to force write-out of pending flash (for l476) before another thing dependent on it
17:17:03 <tpbsd> just a last worf flag ?
17:17:07 <tabemann> yeah
17:17:42 <tabemann> it's used in initialization to detect when exactly the last word ends
17:17:43 <tpbsd> does Mecrisp-Stellaris do that ?
17:17:55 <tabemann> or more like, where the address pointing to the last word is
17:18:00 <tabemann> donno
17:18:25 <tpbsd> I've never seen it in the binaries so I dont thing so
17:18:48 <tabemann> I calculated that with my changes, basic.fs now takes up 13K
17:18:58 <tabemann> still big, but not super-big
17:19:14 <tpbsd> it was 19.5kb
17:19:14 <tabemann> note that basic.fs is loaded starting at $6000
17:19:54 <tpbsd> I've never worried about where stuff is loaded
17:20:25 <tabemann> okay, gonna have dinner - bbl
17:20:38 <crab1> enjoy
17:20:44 <tpbsd> I have an app that reads out the dictionary as ihex, the terminal log grabs it and turns it into a binary, so the chip is then cloned
17:20:50 <tpbsd> cya
17:21:02 <crab1> tpbsd: you use freebsd, right?
17:31:50 <Zarutian_HTC> tpbsd: zeptoforth uses direct threaded code or?
17:32:09 <tpbsd> Zarutian_HTC, youd have to ask tabemann 
17:32:34 <tpbsd> Zarutian_HTC, Im just a Forth user
17:34:22 <Zarutian_HTC> it is just that I have the habbit of agresdively refactor for less space consumption
17:35:41 <Zarutian_HTC> s/sd/ss/
17:36:47 <Kumool> that seems like a good habit
17:36:50 <tpbsd> me too, in my user programs as I only have 64kB flash
17:37:17 <tpbsd> which is a fair bit but I also use a lot of development apps and they have a lot of text
17:39:11 <Zarutian_HTC> heck I have on occasation thought of using extended Zork text encoding to cut further down on space
17:41:47 <tpbsd> I use a standard ascii terminal so I couldnt do that
17:43:11 <Zarutian_HTC> just as the internal encoding. Would have to transcode to and from ascii (utf-8 really) 
17:43:28 <Zarutian_HTC> on the chip itself
17:43:47 <tpbsd> oh!
17:44:25 <tpbsd> I remove all the text based dev stuff on the final product anyway
17:44:55 <tpbsd> If I had a deve chip with a couple of MB of flash it would solve the space issue
17:45:03 <tpbsd> and they are available
17:45:37 <Zarutian_HTC> I usually leave it in because who know who needs to reverse engineer the thing three decades down the line
17:46:28 <tpbsd> yeah, good point
17:46:44 <Zarutian_HTC> it isnt like serial 8soic flash chips are expensive
17:46:55 <tpbsd> I leave the self test words there
17:47:20 <tpbsd> my Forth doesnt have the ability to load words outside the internal flash
17:48:06 <Zarutian_HTC> even saw a board with one that accidentially not connected to the main mcu. It was the 'docu' chip so to speak
17:49:05 <tpbsd> I like the idea of inbuilt doc very much as I'm a electronics tech
17:49:23 <tpbsd> of course unless you know it's there you may not go looking for it
17:51:31 <crab1> unless it was standard practice, which would be nice
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17:51:42 <Zarutian_HTC> talking about hw. I have heard through the grapewine that newer john deere tractors are now slowly being to be called jOHn DEERe as they cant be fixed in the, literal, field
17:53:01 <tpbsd> thats so true
17:53:06 <Zarutian_HTC> tpbsd: not sure if standard practice but it is standard R.E. practice to dump all flash chips and have a look
17:54:16 <tpbsd> Zarutian_HTC, it's not standard practice for repair as the usual trouble is faulty connectors, pcb, maybe a dead chip
17:55:14 <tpbsd> Zarutian_HTC, I think farmers are all trying to buy older john deere tractors or keep older ones without all the software lockin
17:55:56 <Zarutian_HTC> it is when all that have been attempted to be repaired, at least on equipment whose manifacturer has been lost to the sands of time
17:57:20 <tpbsd> i doubt youll find any chips with design and repair notes in the JD gear
17:58:09 <tpbsd> but there is a healthy market for R/E GD gear
18:00:44 <Zarutian_HTC> heard that JD gear often has all their control circuitry ripped out and replaced in many countries around the world
18:01:24 <Zarutian_HTC> often due to more stringent safety regulations
18:02:32 <tpbsd> I dont work in that industry thesedays so I dont know
18:02:32 <crab1> what's JD stand for
18:02:48 <Zarutian_HTC> I heard but have not prooven that JD think that software only safety interlocks are okay
18:03:07 <tpbsd> I used to repair instrumentation and sensors for one large farm machinery manuf about 20 years ago
18:03:16 <Zarutian_HTC> crab1 John Deere
18:03:29 <crab1> ahhh gotcha
18:03:54 <tpbsd> Zarutian_HTC, back then it was just electronics, nothing was locked in software
18:04:14 <tpbsd> stuff like tachometers and grain rate meters etc
18:13:24 <crab1> sounds riveting
18:14:08 <crab1> but who knows maybe tachometers are more interesting than I realize
18:26:49 <tabemann> back
18:27:13 <crab1> how was dinner
18:27:18 <tabemann> Zarutian_HTC, zeptoforth is SRT/NCI
18:27:20 <tabemann> good
18:27:38 <tabemann> i.e. it's a native code Forth
18:28:08 <tabemann> the irony is that it'd use far less memory if it were token-threaded or even ITC
18:30:09 <tabemann> i.e. zeptoforth is a memory hog
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18:33:10 <Zarutian_HTC> SubRoutineThreaded/NativeCodeImplemenred ?
18:38:56 <tabemann> subroutine threaded / native code inlining
18:40:23 <Zarutian_HTC> how big is the usual subroutine callsite?
18:40:58 <tabemann> a call from RAM to flash is a whopping 10 bytes
18:41:09 <tabemann> a call from flash to flash is normally 4 bytes
18:41:45 <tabemann> likewise a call from RAM to RAM is normally 4 bytes
18:41:52 <Zarutian_HTC> why so big in the first case?
18:42:54 <tabemann> because I need to use a full-size literal, which is 8 bytes (4 bytes for the lower 16 bits, 4 bytes for the upper 16 bits) followed by a call to that address
18:43:54 <Zarutian_HTC> 4 bytes for 16 bits? Do you mean 32 bits?
18:45:11 <tabemann> no, 32 bits for a 16 bit literal
18:45:25 <Zarutian_HTC> oh, you are building up the 32 bits in two halves of an register
18:46:10 <tabemann> yes
18:46:21 <Zarutian_HTC> if I recall how ARM works correctly
18:47:12 <tabemann> in a good few cases inlining actually saves space
18:48:40 <Zarutian_HTC> how big are the ram and flash?
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18:52:38 <tabemann> the flash is 1 meg
18:53:14 <tabemann> the RAM I think is either 128k or 96k (as is the STM32L476); not sure though
18:53:56 <tabemann> shit
18:54:05 <tabemann> syslogd is eating all my CPU for some reason
18:54:08 <tabemann> bbiab
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19:25:26 <MrMobius> tabemann, isnt there a PC relative thing where you canb have a constant pool?
19:25:32 <MrMobius> I remember reading briefly about that
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19:26:43 <tabemann> the problem is how compilation works in zeptoforth combined with flash
19:27:04 <tabemann> when I'm compiling code I have no way of knowing when the current word ends
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19:28:02 <MrMobius> so you cant save all the constants and write them after ; ?
19:28:06 <tabemann> (note that PC-relative data addresses have to be after the PC, but even if they did not, I cannot put literals before the word because the code there has already been written to flash)
19:28:17 <MrMobius> oh I think I see. you wont know where ; is at the point where youd have to write the offset
19:28:32 <tabemann> yeah
19:29:03 <MrMobius> hmm, I can think of workarounds but they all seem messy
19:29:17 <MrMobius> like put the pool as far away as possible and write words up to that
19:30:51 <tabemann> exactly
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19:57:25 <Zarutian_HTC> well, what are the max literal pc-relative offsets?
19:59:37 <Zarutian_HTC> if you have the equiv of colon word with no inlining you could do the literals first then the calls using them
20:00:23 <Zarutian_HTC> if you have some maximum distance the you could do it in chunks
20:01:33 <Zarutian_HTC> heck if you can read back from flash or flash write buffer you could eliminate duplicate literals
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20:23:17 <MrMobius> sounds like literals have to come after the instructions that load them if its PC relative
20:24:30 <MrMobius> and doing it in chunks, what do you do when a word gets close to the chunk? youd have to decide on a maximum word size or put a jump in the word to skip over the chunk
20:30:49 <MrMobius> or maybe if the word reached the chunk, mark it as unused and copy the word up to that point to the space after the chunk
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20:31:54 <MrMobius> or i guess you wouldnt have to mark it as unused if the new copy after the chunk has the same name
20:35:20 <tabemann> back
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20:37:50 <MrMobius> if youre ok with wasting the flash for the half word before the constants
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