00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.03.29 00:45:25 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 00:48:30 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 02:00:41 --- join: shynoob joined #forth 02:00:44 hi 02:00:49 I am new here 02:01:26 so it says on the download page, that I could upgrade it anytime 02:01:31 call me clairvoyant, I just had that feeling you were new here, I cant explain it ;-) 02:01:42 welcome to#forth ! 02:02:07 xD 02:02:32 what do you want to upgrade ? 02:02:38 so can I do everything with the trial version what I can do with paid one/ 02:02:42 just asking 02:03:05 I mean as long as I am not developing for all platforms 02:03:24 what program are you referring to ? 02:03:35 forth programs 02:03:55 but which one ? 02:03:55 on SwiftForth 02:04:09 oh I was talking about SwiftForth IDE 02:05:13 ah, youd have to ask forth.com I think 02:05:53 oh sorry.. so what programs do you guys use to use Forth language? 02:05:56 I have no idea but someone else here may know 02:06:24 we use forth, but there are many forths and most are free 02:06:45 oh I am sorry, I am complete newb 02:07:30 I'm sure SwiftForth is amongst the best and with support etc 02:07:43 what do you want to do with Forth ? 02:08:10 just code and see what I could do with it.. 02:08:34 plus forth.com has some of the original Forth people such as Dr Elixabeth Rather, you cant go wrong there if youre looking for a commercial FOrth 02:09:23 probably the first thing for you to know is most forths are different in some way, some small, some hige 02:09:29 but is there any other IRC where I can communicate freely with forth users? 02:09:31 huge 02:09:50 this is probably the best place to communicate freely with forth users 02:10:04 do any of you code games? 02:10:05 almost everyone here is a Forth user including myself 02:10:19 I don't but some others may 02:11:10 the greatest percentages of people here are probably American and most of America is asleep right now 02:11:20 so it's pretty quiet 02:11:48 do you know any other programming languages ? 02:12:02 not really haha.. just started learning some C 02:12:19 but I do have some idea of how programming is 02:12:22 thats not a problem, probably an advantage with Forth 02:12:37 cause its different than most? 02:12:44 so nothing to unlearn? 02:12:48 everyone has to start again with Forth if they know other languages anyway 02:12:57 it's utterly different 02:13:35 so what do you suggest to get along with Starting Forth text? 02:13:43 I'm not the best person to advise you as Im a technician, not really a programmer, tho I do program a lot of Forth 02:14:07 there is literally a TON of Forth documents 02:14:29 where does one find those ton of documents? 02:15:12 the old book "Starting Forth" is ok but a bit out of date and some people (myself included) don't find the cartoon ish nature all that appealing 02:15:45 hello 02:15:59 hm hello 02:16:02 rdrop-exit, Zen Guru of Forth is here! 02:16:25 I bow down to thee! 02:16:35 shynoob, I'll hand you over to rdrop-exit, hes 10ee99 better qualified to advise you than I am 02:17:08 rdrop-exit, shynoob was looking for some good Forth learning docs 02:17:18 yeah and software to use 02:17:59 shynoob, there is a Forth for every ISA, what machine does your Forth need to run on ? 02:17:59 just read the log to catch up 02:18:35 If you're starting with a Forth Inc. Forth, than I believe they have 02:18:59 tp, x86-64 architecture 02:19:09 a pdf that's an update of Starting Forth that follows the ANS standard 02:19:39 yes, Forth inc have some excellent doc available at their site 02:20:11 They also publish the Forth Programmer's Handbook 02:20:11 shynoob, I like "retro' for X86, the designer "CRC" is a OP here 02:20:24 and Forth Application Techniques 02:20:56 yeah I saw 02:21:02 shynoob, for a open source, well documented X86 forth, have a look here: http://forth.works/book.html#retro-a-modern-pragmatic-forth 02:21:04 thanks, tp, I'll check that out 02:22:25 Your trial version probably came with some PDF docs 02:22:27 shynoob, Id say the top of the heap is probably something from forth.inc but there are many alternatives that are Free, such as Retro, Gforth, and many others 02:23:17 yeah rdrop-exit, 02:23:30 shynoob, you windows or unix ? 02:23:34 windows 02:23:50 than forth.inc would have an edge 02:24:15 most FLOSS is targeted for Linux/Unix (but not all) 02:24:16 I don't mind free or nonfree.. but right now I cant avail nonfree stuff yet 02:25:12 generally there isnt a lot of nonfree stuff for Windows that isnt junk or virus ridden imho 02:25:19 windows = $$ 02:25:26 it's a commercial OS 02:25:56 ikr 02:26:01 For windows you probably want to use either SwiftForth or MPE's VFX 02:26:20 rdrop-exit, agreed 02:27:16 If doing embedded from Windows then there's Forth Inc's SwiftX 02:28:25 I believe SwiftX uses SwiftForth on the PC side 02:28:38 shynoob, I think youd have a much better Forth Windows experience using Swiftforth 02:29:02 hm I have downloaded that free stuff.. is it very different from the paid one? 02:29:07 rdrop-exit, shynoob is interested in writing games I believe 02:29:14 shynoob, probably not 02:29:16 ah 02:29:28 games is more like an ambition... 02:29:35 so nothing serious for now 02:29:41 shynoob, but it would have some limitations which they do name on their website I believe 02:30:32 I'm not a Windows user, can't help you on the details 02:30:55 shynoob, but I'm sure it's usable enough to provide all you need to evaluate it 02:31:39 thats what I was confused about 02:31:48 what does it mean by being able to evaluate 02:32:04 I'll check their website, brb 02:33:07 it means enough functionality to use it and decide if you like it 02:35:19 it doesn't specify on the website what the limitations of the evaluation version are, maybe check the readme file 02:37:38 shynoob, I'm curious, most who are new to programming just jump on the C bandwagon, (rightly or wrongly), what led you to want to try Forth ? 02:38:13 actually thesedays they probably start with Python as it's so popular for some reason 02:38:47 yeah.. well I was checking out which one is the most efficient one.. and forth popped as one of them 02:38:57 I was just looking so I dont really know 02:39:05 https://bpaste.net/QTDQ 02:40:23 ok, it means you can't produce a self-contained EXE 02:40:26 not much reason.. just wanted to go with the least picked one and still usefull 02:41:04 that is bad right? 02:41:36 shynoob, as rdrop-exit said, it wont produce a executable but it will still run on your machine 02:41:44 I *think* 02:41:51 I see 02:42:12 when you want to run your program, you have to load it from a source file at the Forth command line 02:42:17 it's only bad if you want to send a program you made with it to another windows user 02:42:22 the moment I upgrade.. I might be able to make an executabe 02:42:25 executable* 02:42:31 yes 02:42:31 yes, definitely 02:42:44 thats fine for now I guess 02:43:05 I guess I'll use both these then 02:43:12 shynoob, Im sure youd find forth.inc a very fair and reasonable company 02:43:13 MPE's VFX? 02:43:42 will use them both for npw 02:43:43 now* 02:43:55 shynoob, MPE would be good also 02:43:57 SwiftForth and MPE's VFX 02:44:02 MPE is a UK Forth publisher, that produces a similar product of similar quality 02:44:28 Id go for forth.inc myself, they have a history right back to the beginning of Forth 02:44:32 but lets me build an executable for free rn ? 02:44:48 They've both been around since the 70s 02:45:02 no, none of them will allow you to build a useful windows executable with a eval version 02:45:15 I've never used an MPE product, only familiar with them by reputation 02:45:27 yeah so my plan is use SwiftForth and execute same programs on MPE product too 02:45:37 to create another executable 02:45:45 shynoob, that probably wont work 02:46:01 I doubt the source from one will work on the other 02:46:07 ohh 02:46:19 not without some porting 02:46:26 yeah .. with minor tweaks 02:46:39 besides, is anything MPE will be sewn up tight for their eval version 02:46:40 I mean with the hope that I'll learn to use them both 02:46:49 if anything ... I mean 02:47:10 yeah, you may prefer one over the other 02:48:00 but anyways gotta start with Starting Forth docs 02:48:02 shynoob, MPE has this excellent free book but it mainly applies to MPE : http://www.mpeforth.com/arena/ProgramForth.pdf 02:48:06 I would stick with one at first while your learning, or minor differences will just confise you 02:48:13 hmm 02:48:21 * confuse 02:48:23 should stick with official for now I guess 02:48:41 shynoob, you may find that many exercises in 'starting Forth fail with a modern Forth 02:48:51 ohh 02:49:09 probably better to get a eval Forth and their book 02:49:19 then everything will work 02:49:24 tp, I think Forth Inc has a revised PDF of Starting Forth that follows ANS 02:49:44 what is eval forth 02:49:48 rdrop-exit, oh 02:50:15 shynoob, any Forth that youre 'eval'uating 02:50:40 rdrop-exit, I only have permission to recommend the book above 02:50:56 Check your download for a copy of the Forth Programmer's Handbook 02:51:21 I am a beginner in programming 02:51:24 its fine right? 02:51:49 yeah they have given me 3 books 02:51:54 handbook 02:51:54 MPE is a bit officious, anyone who just provides a link to their book gets a nastygram from Stephen Pelc if they don't have permission to do so 02:52:04 forth standard 2012 02:52:22 what's the third one? 02:52:51 actually 2 more 02:52:56 ok 02:53:04 swiftforth-win32 02:53:19 and dpans94.pdf which is Programming Languages- Forth 02:53:43 that seems to be the standard too 02:53:43 dpans94 is the Forth specification ? 02:54:01 dpans and forth standard 2012 are standards, not recommended for tutorial purposes 02:54:28 yeah, theyre definitely reader interest killers afaic 02:54:39 swiftforth-win32 is probably the user manual, maybe it has a tutorial, I don't know 02:54:53 yeah so I'll check out the handbook 02:55:07 my preferrence would always be forth.inc 02:55:17 Yes, that's a tutorial book 02:55:51 It might not be for complete programming beginners though 02:56:38 shynoob, I use Forth for controlling the gear I build, all embedded stuff on micro controllers 02:56:49 good to know 02:57:35 the online version of starting forth is slightly different than the pdf 02:58:25 It is our pleasure to now present both a downloadable PDF of Starting FORTH (First Edition) as will as an updated online edition, with great appreciation for work done by Marcel Hendrix to generate the web version on which these pages were based. 02:59:07 Go with the updated online edition, so you're sure the examples run on your system 02:59:29 yeah 02:59:31 thanks 02:59:36 shynoob, theyre both Starting Forth tho, which is ancient 03:00:08 but the only resource for complete newbies in the realm of programming and comp sci. 03:00:50 shynoob, in a way reading Starting Forth, finding what works and what doesnt with the Forth you're using is like 'doing the hard yards' .... if you finish then Forth is for you 03:01:19 we all had to do it 03:01:44 The first edition follows the '79 standard so it's of no use, the 2nd edition follows the '83 standard which is better. This online edition I believe follows the ANS standard and is therefore better suited to your needs. 03:02:13 hm 03:02:18 https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/0-starting-forth/ 03:02:20 although none of it will run on Retro Forth :) 03:03:10 there are probably more non-standard Forths than there are compliant ones 03:03:18 exactly 03:03:26 thanks.. will let you know how it all went.. once I have traversed through this book once.. 03:03:34 good luck! 03:04:03 shynoob, cool, good luck, Forth isnt for everyone, but for some it's all they want 03:06:42 may the forth be with me 03:06:44 and you 03:06:46 :) 03:06:56 right on! 03:07:03 it's definitely with rdrop-exit and I :) 03:08:01 shynoob, I maintain this Forth site, but it's not for x86 : https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/index.html 03:14:41 nice efforts 03:15:26 just my notes as Ive been learning Forth myself, starting around 2014 03:16:23 shynoob, Forth is unique in that you make it into whatever you want, thats why no two forths are the same 03:16:55 shynoob, C alwaus looks like C, Python always looks like Python etc, but Forth can look like *anything* 03:17:36 shynoob, say you want to write a game in C, it will still look like C 03:18:01 shynoob, but you can write a *game language* in Forth that is unique 03:18:14 it only looks like your game language 03:23:02 interesting 03:23:14 whats your age? 03:23:31 he doesn't remember 03:23:36 I mean what age were you in 2014 03:23:43 when you started forth 03:23:44 oh 03:23:46 that happens 03:23:50 ;-) 03:23:51 too much of forth maybe? 03:23:53 xD 03:24:50 you must be a teenader if you're asking about age 03:24:52 hahah 03:25:02 * teenager 03:25:32 i was 60 years old 03:26:07 i learnt C in 1997 03:26:15 wow 03:26:23 I was born in tht year 03:26:34 haha 03:26:36 and National PACE assembler in 1974 03:26:38 not a teen hehe 03:27:19 no, not a teen anymore 03:27:39 but it happes to us all sooner or later :) 03:27:47 oh ya 03:28:10 I learned Forth in my teens 03:28:11 except for rdrop-exit for he is the Immortal Zen Forth Guru! 03:28:54 though I stopped for many years and came back to it eventually 03:29:08 shynoob, I *planned* to learn Forth "oneday" starting in 1978 03:29:48 shynoob, and finally in 2014 I had time to evaluate it and I'm still using Forth 03:30:03 haha evaluate 03:30:09 6 years later, but Im still a Forth noob 03:31:04 Forth is unique, and every Forth is unique 03:31:15 yep 03:32:15 Anytime I have to use a normal programming language I long for Forth 03:32:31 shynoob, thats one reason Forth isnt popular, no one really knows what it is :) 03:33:07 It's what you make of it ;-) 03:33:10 everytime I read C I have to rush outside so I can barf 03:33:16 it's a mind set for all we know 03:33:40 I hate C much less than most other programming languages 03:33:41 we only have our suspicions ... 03:33:54 rdrop-exit, sure, C is ok up to a point 03:34:05 Im no C expert tho 03:35:10 I *used* use and admire C once (embedded) but it's not a great fit there even if everyone in the world uses it 03:35:56 how bad is rust, go, and D in comparison? 03:36:03 shynoob, learning Forth is like learning karate, first you must wax on, then wax off .... 03:36:12 lol 03:36:31 I've never tried Rust, Go, or D 03:36:40 Rust seems pretty good, Rust users love converting stuff even tho XLST was there first 03:37:03 Go, dunno, they made it for Linux and I use FreeeBSD 03:37:20 D, dunno, Im a electronics tech not a programmer 03:37:34 XSLT I mean 03:38:18 Most of the other languages I know (or used to know) are old 03:38:54 I've forgotten most, except for C and AWK 03:39:12 do you guys work in a professional environment 03:39:12 ? 03:39:20 I'm retired 03:39:48 shynoob, in his heyday rdrop-exit was one of the most highly paid programmers in Mesopotamia, he was paid 20 Shekels a week! 03:39:59 how's retirement like? huh do you get to play some go or chess or shogi games with your friends? 03:39:59 plus tips! 03:40:09 and slave girls! 03:40:25 I haven't played shogi in decades, still have a set somewhere 03:40:28 greece himm 03:40:28 shynoob, rdrop-exit is the local Poker Hustler 03:40:36 I play board wargames mostly 03:41:04 like Monopoly ? 03:41:15 like world war something maybe 03:41:39 too bad I would have invited you to play aoe 2 with me ... but its only windows 03:41:59 thats kind of you :) 03:42:12 even tho microsoft ruined the new version.. and it crashes 10x more 03:42:23 but the old is still popular 03:42:48 I last played 'Urban Terror' online about 8 years ago, I played online, it was a ton of fun 03:43:16 It runs on just about anything 03:43:39 hm never got much into fps games tho 03:43:42 Id spend half the time laughing myhead off 03:43:56 warsow is pretty faast paced tho 03:43:59 anyways offtopic 03:44:21 I believe at least one famous game was written in Forth 03:44:30 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 03:44:41 which 03:44:49 Dark Star 03:45:06 ah read that somewhere 03:45:18 starflight 03:46:39 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 03:46:39 http://www.vassalengine.org 03:48:26 i refuse to be anyones Vassal! 03:49:33 just using git loses my attention immediately 03:49:53 what do you prefer? 03:49:59 subversion? 03:50:18 bbiab 03:50:36 fossil 03:51:23 subversion is ok, but it's a centralised system like the old CVS it replaced 03:51:57 https://www.fossil-scm.org/home/doc/trunk/www/index.wiki? 03:51:58 ? 03:53:06 thats it 03:53:25 I'm an old fossil myself 04:04:59 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 04:16:15 "Fossil stores content using an enduring file format in an SQLite database" 04:17:53 thats right, it's 'enduring' because fossil wont allow anything to be deleted 04:18:34 SQLite is pretty good but as soon as a general purpose database is broken out *I* lose interest, git's data makes way more sense it's just compressed snapshots of every file, stored under its checksum name. Every commit can verify itself. It's all distributed but just on the filesystem rather than in a database. 04:19:13 Unfortunately git is quite bloated these days, but in principle it had a very elegant design and it doesn't get in my way so if I want SCM I'll use git 04:19:44 For personal stuff I usually just store snapshots, I don't bother with SCM beyond .tgz's 04:20:07 sure, like editors, OSes, programming languages etc, SCM's are a personal choice 04:20:53 fossil was made by the author of sqlite as the SCM for it 04:21:00 You can still discuss what is better, even if it's difficult or potentially impossible to say one is objectively better 04:21:06 Ah right that makes sense 04:21:16 I do really like SQLite, it's my favourite database software 04:21:29 But I hate databases in general 04:21:34 veltas, only with reasonable forthers who are a pleasure to compare favorite apps with 04:21:54 I love databases and have for at least 3 decades 04:22:22 having a database does give fossil some unique capabilities 04:23:18 Oh yes? 04:23:21 Did you know that a single relational query can implement any polynomial time algorithm? 04:23:26 for instance, I use a home made 'forth project builder' that supplies all the development aids and templates for every new project in about 0.1 second on this pc 04:24:04 veltas, no I dont even know what that means (Im a tech not a programmer) 04:24:24 --- quit: shynoob (Remote host closed the connection) 04:24:36 It means anything that can be done in a reasonable amount of time on a computer can be implemented in one SQL query 04:24:41 but some of the fossil configs can only be done thru the cli or web interface AFTER the fossil repo is created 04:24:46 ahh :) 04:24:47 Roughly 04:25:57 however, as fossil uses a database, I pre populate it from my project manager before the repo is fully created 04:26:22 so by the time the repo is done, all my special requirements are in place 04:26:42 Block-based Forths are their own repository 04:27:16 initially I asked on #fossil, but no one had any idea (no Forth users there) so I had to do the unthinkable ... read the fossil doc! 04:27:56 rdrop-exit, and 'well written code is self documenting' 04:28:20 rdrop-exit: What does that mean? 04:29:33 veltas, what rdrop-exit means is that if your trousers have a pocket, then you don't need a dustbin for the bones from the chicken you just ate ;-) 04:29:34 Everything is in one memory space. Whether it's source, binary, docs. 04:29:51 You just take a snapshot of the whole thing. 04:30:17 rdrop-exit, caveats please ? 04:30:44 1) cannot use on a small embedded system with a self hosted Forth 04:31:05 2) if you loose your documentation 'shadow block' youre screwed 04:31:21 3) no SCM 04:31:31 1) use a tether 04:31:45 2) you lose a file your also screwed 04:32:11 3) store your snapshot in your prefered SCM 04:32:18 Before I met rdrop-exit I used to think that the answer to everything was "42", now I know it's "use a tether" 04:32:40 of course ;) 04:32:44 My prefered SCM is the many snapshots model 04:32:59 My host forth is one file 04:33:14 my host Forth is one chip 04:33:22 it is? 04:33:27 it is 04:33:47 it always has been 04:34:05 If I carry out my Forth to its conclusion I will be writing self-built copies of it to cassette tapes, and keeping them on one big tape at different timestamps 04:34:45 veltas, I'm wondering if you have ever saved data on a casette tape before ? 04:34:47 I thought you developed on a pc 04:34:50 That is my SCM 04:34:54 rdrop-exit: I do now 04:35:14 I will then as well because the ZX Spectrum is a "Personal Computer" it says so on the box 04:35:21 rdrop-exit, I develop on a single chip, but all my files are created, saved,scm'd etc on a pc 04:35:36 I only ever have one file 04:35:37 tp: Yes I have 04:35:57 veltas, I meant tp, I thought he developed on a PC 04:36:02 veltas, and the utter slowness and unreliability doesnt bother you ? 04:36:13 I am potentially going to design my own format with redundancy and error-correcting codes 04:36:23 As for the slowness, how often do you take snapshots? 04:36:29 rdrop-exit, think of my PC as a super terminal with a scm 04:36:49 tp, sure but you have a bunch of files I suppose 04:36:58 I only need 1 file 04:37:05 veltas Im the wrong person to ask :) this system has taken snapshots every 15 minutes for the last 2 years 04:37:28 I might also fit some simple compression in as well, to improve the speed 04:37:35 rdrop-exit, can you be more specific ? ;-) 04:38:22 It's a block based Forth running on a PC, the blocks are contained in a single file 04:38:24 rdrop-exit, at ant time I have a heap of files with comments, a single file with the same data as all the seperate files, and another single file with no comments 04:39:04 i feed the single file with no comments to the mcu every time I click the 'make' button on my editor 04:39:25 at 460800 baud with hardware handshaking, so it's pretty fast 04:40:17 but from a programmers poc I have a GVIM gui editor with color syntax highlighting, advanced search, blah blah... 04:40:21 pov 04:40:38 I just use a block editor 04:40:49 (that's part of the Forth itself) 04:41:14 I just use a modern editor with every conceivable geegaw I want 04:41:29 I have just what I need 04:41:37 thats what I just said 04:41:54 note the "I want" :) 04:42:18 I use nothing out of the box, this is Forth, I get to do whatever I like 04:42:38 that's right 04:42:44 same as you :) 04:43:01 tho admittedly your system is much more targeted than mine 04:43:40 mine is just a techs tool box, full of bits of stuff,half rolls of electrical tape, various tools 04:43:53 and rusty 04:44:05 but it's exactly what I need to do stuff 04:44:18 I'm was just answering veltas' question on blocks 04:44:38 I'm not trying to tell you how you should do things 04:45:04 I'm sure the way you do it is best suited to your needs 04:45:52 It's not a competition 04:46:13 It's an exposition of different approaches 04:46:39 there's more than one way to skin a cat 04:47:10 actually, your efforts showing me how unsuitable my stack comments were resulted in massive improvements here, I'm very glad you took the time 04:47:31 no problemo 04:48:10 i apologise if I come over as antagonistic, or forceful, I'm just a excitable lad! 04:48:26 no problem 04:48:31 some may say 'keen' 04:49:08 some may say 'PITA' theyre all probably right ;-) 04:49:11 going back to tethers for a sec 04:49:23 :) 04:50:07 a tethered Forth can be used to lay down a standalone forth on a target 04:50:11 you even inspired me to spend a day fixing a long standing problem with one area of my XSLT, and finally after about 2 years, it's fixed! 04:50:22 yes, I have a tethered Forth 04:51:01 tethering doesn't preclude anything, it just gives more flexibility 04:51:11 I love tethers, I wish I had one for the STM32F0 04:51:17 absolutely agree 04:51:49 I'm definitely not arguing against tethers, I love them 04:52:09 now if the host (i.e. pc-side) Forth of your tether happens to be block based, it makes SCM very simple 04:52:32 evertying is in one file (the blocks) 04:52:39 I do tend to get a bit carried away trying to show that 'if you can't have the tether you want, love the hosted Forth you have" 04:53:31 you just take a snapshot of your blocks, which includes everything about your projects, even if you have multiple projects 04:53:51 and store that in your SCM 04:54:09 sure 04:54:12 the snapshot already includes source, binary, tools, everything 04:54:56 no dealing with multiple files and directories 04:55:40 I like the simplicity, although I can of course understand it's not for everyone 04:55:55 it does have it's charm 04:56:42 but doesnt suit the system I have. Even my tethered Forth has exactly the same dev system that my hosted Forth has 04:57:23 it's always the same argument, blocks or files, windows or unix, vim or emacs :) 04:58:27 no argument here, just another take on the infinite variations of Forth 04:59:30 I have been intrigued by the block based approach of old Forths, that's still resident on modern forths and still popular among many forthers 05:00:01 I inspired me to use something a little similar to Forth's blocks for something I'm writing at work right now 05:00:31 It* inspired 05:01:08 I actually like blocks, I first experienced them with 'Riscy Pygness' Forth by Frank Sargant 05:01:56 Blocks were one of the simplifiers of Forth that were abandoned en mass 05:02:05 and I made a 1.44MB minifloppy drive Forth block filesystem for a Rockwell 65F11 Forth system in 1987 05:02:36 Similar to what happened with metacompilation 05:03:13 Ive forgotten a lot but iirc floppy drive sectors make great blocks ? 05:03:13 cool 05:03:41 the programmers would just load the block numbers from the floppy 05:04:05 yes, blocks were not always 1 kilobyte each, that came later 05:04:30 i was so impressed I spent the next 33 years planning to 'look into Forth oneday' 05:04:31 they were whatever unit made most sense for the drive 05:05:05 it was dead easyto build 05:06:03 I used a floppy controller chip, made the pcb, used a std 1.44MB floppy and connected it to the Forth data bus 05:06:58 but time has moved on, most cortex-M4's come with 1024 MB of flash inside the chip 05:07:24 Fig-Forth had things such as bbytes per buffer, blocks per screen, sectors per block, etc... 05:08:07 The standard 1 kilobyte block size was put in place in the '79 standard 05:09:33 Elizabeth Rather use to say that Forth had the only portable data format in the world with the 1k block 05:10:01 * storage format 05:10:36 shes my personal hero! 05:11:54 her embedded skills are extraordinary 05:12:22 It's too bad she's retired, her posts had some of the best SNR 05:12:49 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 05:14:46 oh yeah, right on 05:15:10 shes still active in that slime pit called CLF 05:15:35 Has anyone here applied Forth blocks to raw FLASH? 05:15:48 much less than before sadly 05:15:54 I've stopped reading it again, NTS is too high for me 05:16:26 veltas, not me, I'm a Forth user not a Forth system programmer 05:17:00 it's been done 05:17:22 I'm wondering what method they used 05:18:26 depends on the specifics I suppose 05:18:58 i know it involved chickens and a virgin 05:19:12 there's a Forther who's in the flash business, can't recall his name atm 05:19:45 dinner is served, then probably another video binge with the wife 05:19:56 catch you guys soon, stay healthy 05:20:07 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 05:20:33 cya thanks for the chat! 05:21:20 veltas, rdrop-exit is isolated in his apartment in Manilla like everyone else atm 05:22:16 Right 05:23:16 well i didnt mean that we are all in manilla :) 05:23:22 Im in Australia 05:24:30 veltas, why not use a kickarse high density, industrial 20GB SCSI tape drive instead ? 05:24:45 of a cheap and nasty audio tape drive ? 05:25:06 theyre dirt cheap on ebay in old gear 05:29:24 --- quit: iyzsong (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 05:43:40 tp: Authenticity 05:44:00 ? 05:44:17 I dont understand 05:44:39 The Spectrum was designed to work with a tape, I want to produce a system that would've been useful to a home user in the 80s 05:44:54 the 20GB SCSI tape drive is from a different era 05:45:25 yeah, a decade later 05:45:32 Hmm 05:46:00 It's a cool idea but I will save that for some early 90s computing tech maybe 05:46:04 I was around in the 80's, lol and the 70's,60's, and 50's 05:46:19 and I owned a few tape drive computers 05:46:35 Nice 05:46:50 sadly no, they utterly sucked 05:47:04 lol 05:47:49 those tape drives were terrible, I was always adjusting the volume to try and get the data to save reliably 05:48:21 I know they still use cassette tapes for backups, can't be beat for price+density, but access time is total garbage compared to anything else. 05:48:46 when I got my first 8" fixed format floppy of 180KB I cant tell you how much my life changed! 05:49:52 This tech is all very impressive really, isn't it? 05:50:00 even the scsi 1/2 tapes take ages to read, probably a hour to index, but theyre still the most reliable data storage known to man 05:50:00 And we keep pushing the limits 05:50:44 So we can run more static copies of chrome to run electron apps 05:50:46 apparently a 1/2 DAT tape of 20GB kept in a vault thats climate controlled can be relied on for 50 years! 05:50:50 hahahah 05:51:23 you and I both know there is only one really reliable storage medium 05:51:43 ... cuneiform clay tablets 05:52:01 Absolutely (I have no idea what that is) 05:52:17 like they used in Summeria 05:52:20 haha 05:52:27 FLASH is the ultimate storage, we will make it high density and more reliable than anything else 05:52:37 there are still millions of them that havent been read 05:52:45 Have you ever used or heard of FRAM? 05:53:12 but theyre mostly "omar bought a donkey of akash for 2 shekels" 05:53:17 sure 05:53:31 Ti uses it in their MSP430 chips 05:54:01 It is better than FLASH in every way, totally reliable, 'solves' every storage problem we have. Except it is not very high density, and it is expensive for what it is. 05:54:27 It's good as a small storage area for vital configuration, or FLASH wear-leveling bookkeeping 05:54:30 hmm, I hear that FRAM has it's pros and cons like everything else 05:54:39 it's FAST 05:55:00 but it wears on read cycles 05:55:23 Yes but it's good for 100s of years of read cycles 05:55:40 Like you can read constantly and it won't break for 100 years at least 05:55:43 you may be right, I havent used it 05:55:51 That is the rating of the last FRAM spec I read anyway 05:56:07 only 100 years! but then Ill have to replace it ;-) 05:56:42 That is just current FRAM tech, one day it might last longer (I can imagine applications where over 100 years reliability is needed) 05:57:07 personally I think the only long term memory we will ever invent is 'organic' and even then it will lose bits and wont be free 05:57:28 it will cost a lot in cokes and hamburgers etc 05:57:39 not to mention pizza 05:57:59 I've heard pizza is a worse fuel for your organic memory 05:58:22 hahah 05:58:47 But it can fix a broken motivator chip 05:59:02 yeah but the latest 100PB organomems demand it even tho they know it raises their cholesterol 05:59:25 wish it could, Id get some 05:59:32 I wonder how much data humans could theoretically memorise 05:59:52 not a human, it's just a brain in a box! 06:00:19 you have to put the pizza thru a blender before they can consume it 06:00:34 pour it into the tiny feeder tray 06:19:45 If you had to guess what C+! does.... ? 06:20:25 You'd assume it was a: ( n addr -- ) that adds n to the character at addr right? 06:21:11 yes 06:22:45 tp: Do you have such a word? 06:22:59 not in the Forth I use 06:23:16 It seems too convenient to me not to have 06:23:30 I actually want to make it a token 06:24:14 oops! 06:24:18 I do have it 06:24:29 c+! ( u|n a-addr - - ) Add to byte memory location 06:24:36 I've just never used it 06:24:53 I've got room for about 128 forth words which will occupy a single byte in colon definitions 06:25:11 (It's a tokenized forth) 06:25:28 written in C ? 06:25:39 It's written in assembly 06:25:44 oh 06:26:04 youve seen my disclaimer about not being a programmer I hope :) 06:26:24 and on the 6502 ? 06:26:29 No, Z80 06:27:07 oh ok 06:27:33 Making it tokenized is going to save serious space 06:28:19 is space a issue ? 06:28:33 the Z80 has a external data bus of 64kB 06:28:40 and you could easily page it 06:28:54 I'm just using the built-in RAM 06:29:58 the board I made for 65f11 had 8 ram chips soldered on each other each with the chip select pin bent out 06:30:01 Space is an issue when you know that you *will* run out, and you want to be able to get as much *stuff* in there as possible 06:30:37 I know if I write games with my Forth system, for instance, that I will run out of space and if I have a way of fitting more logic in with less RAM usage I should do that 06:31:17 tp: Nice lol 06:31:27 the client wanted it that way 06:31:32 3D RAM 06:31:37 Before its time 06:31:40 looked funny with this stack of ram 06:31:47 I wonder why they wanted that 06:32:05 worked fine, is a known technique, or used to be whan ram chips were small 06:32:13 more static ram 06:32:48 it was a fair project, a UAV controller plus other stuff 06:34:02 it was a underwater autonomous vehicle with hydrophones that recorded the propeller sounds of shipping 06:34:12 Okay 06:34:47 I only made the hardware 06:35:47 it would then run the sound against known propellor sounds to find a match 06:36:42 Did they find any U-Boats? 06:42:27 I don't know, I only had a small part in the build 06:43:02 hey it's midnight here, time for some zzzzz, thanks for the chat 06:43:06 Okay you too 06:43:09 Sleep well 06:51:46 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 07:49:36 --- quit: cartwright (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 07:52:05 --- join: cartwright joined #forth 08:49:33 --- join: proteus-like joined #forth 08:53:09 --- quit: proteus-dude (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 09:48:25 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 09:51:29 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 10:35:00 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 10:52:52 hey guys 10:56:11 hey tabemann 10:59:26 for some reason my board stopped responding, and then started responding again 10:59:33 the f407 board that is 11:00:46 I did change it so that it used a slightly faster baud rate (i.e. strict 115200) not the "ein ganz kleines bisschen langsamer" one that matthias was using 11:00:48 what was the interval ? 11:01:15 the a bit slower ? 11:01:21 it was $46, I changed it to $45 11:01:23 the "a bit slower" ? 11:01:24 yes 11:01:37 "a little bit slower" 11:02:01 Ive found the baud rate settings not to be too critical 11:02:25 maybe it's my cheapo FTDI clone that's at fault 11:02:44 or maybe my cheapo dupont cables 11:02:49 mine are really cheap <$1 11:03:40 and I a;ways run at 460800 baud with them 11:04:22 you using the external clock which comes from the xtal controlled programmer mcu ? 11:04:52 yeah, I'm using the external clock 11:06:26 I have to figure out how to get flash working properly with this board 11:08:05 i ran your binary btw 11:08:32 yeah? 11:09:32 yeah got the welcome message 11:09:38 added 2 + 2 11:10:09 just couldnt use read the dictionary 11:10:17 -use 11:11:09 but it was looking good! 11:11:18 yeah, there was a bug in that 11:12:04 i was expecting it I saw your log comment 11:12:47 when I can use it I'll add hardware handshaking and post the patch for you 11:23:02 okay, I've narrowed it down to when you first create a flash word 11:23:14 where it complains about flash already being written 11:23:25 however if I write to flash using flash, 11:23:29 it has no problems 11:23:32 yeah I got that also 11:23:49 but you can add 2 2 + . you said? 11:23:58 I tried to upload one of your Forth files 11:24:01 yea 11:24:57 nice to see you send a \r\n also 11:25:13 unlike Mecrisp-Stellaris where only a \n is sent 11:27:52 Over serial? 11:28:08 yeah 11:28:34 it's the right unix protocol but all the usual serial terminals are set up for windows 11:28:59 even Screen wants a cr as well as a newline 11:29:42 so the first thing I do with a new Mecrisp-Stellaris release is ass a \r to the \n and recompile it 11:29:49 ass = add 11:29:59 Actually it's the wrong protocol, the protocol is based on a serial for a VT100, ANSI terminal, and similar. There are UNIX controls for automatically generating a carriage return on line feed which are usually enabled 11:30:09 I'm not sure at what level but serial is definitely below that 11:30:20 So even UNIX tools generate a \r\n at the right level 11:30:42 ah 11:30:51 So Mecrsip-Stellaris is doing it wrong if it only outputs \n on serial 11:31:11 it definitely only outputs \n on serial 11:31:43 I only know this because I work on a product that has very low-level control of serial, and we work with a range of terminals 11:32:09 luckily being GPLd and Forth there are plenty of ways for the user to change it 11:32:24 veltas, cool, thanks for the info 11:34:20 veltas, so only emitting a \n is a vt100 thing ? 11:34:39 No 11:35:16 If we're talking serial, nothing uses only \n unless it works under a misconception 11:35:26 back 11:35:50 In UNIX \n translates to \r\n for text mode streams, it makes it easier to specify "a new line" in C basically 11:35:57 And I don't think that convention started in UNIX 11:36:30 It's for the programmers, the system translates text streams when going to the terminal to have the appropriate carriage return 11:36:34 I know that web protocols such as HTTP and IRC traditionally use \r\n 11:36:43 *Internet protocols 11:37:22 sadly Mecrisp-Stellaris 'stair steps' so the user has to fix it 11:37:46 It probably uses the same logic for both serial and other mechanisms 11:38:09 which is why it was nice to see that tabemann's Forth emits a \r\n 11:38:14 The correct fix is in the serial driver, translate \n to \r\n, that is what I would do if I was on that platform 11:38:28 --- quit: dddddd (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 11:38:49 sure, I did suggest that to the author but he's not interested in changing it 11:38:56 I'm not working with serial so my CR just sets the "row" and "column", but I did remember to also set the column so the carriage return made it ;) 11:39:19 tp: I wonder why, he probably doesn't think he's doing it wrong 11:39:55 veltas, he agreed he should do it, but wants it as it is 11:40:05 It's likely a big shared misconception about \r\n vs \n being a windows v linux thing, programmers only normally see that difference, the fact UNIX actually cares about the carriage return and even has special controls for it is hidden from most people 11:40:06 for his own reason 11:41:02 Actually oldnewthing explains this much better than me https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20040318-00/?p=40193 11:42:46 veltas, you explained it well 11:45:29 ugh 11:46:01 stupid flash problems 11:46:48 one does have to take special steps for flash, ram has spoilt us! 11:52:16 something really weird is going on 11:52:54 if I write series of halfwords to flash (using my flash, routine which takes a 32-bit value, breaks it up into 32 bit values, and writes them individually) 11:52:57 it works fine 11:53:04 but if I first call flash, 11:53:19 then call bflash, , wihch writes a single byte to flasah 11:53:25 it complains 11:53:37 * tp plays the tune for the Twilight Zone ... 11:54:07 Is the word size of the flash a byte? 11:54:19 yes 11:54:41 and the flash, routine increments flash-here by four, as expected 12:02:09 bbl folks :) 12:59:37 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:05:52 tp: oh, btw, I got flash working 13:06:23 it was really an incredibly stupid bug resulting from me copying and pasting part of matthias's code but not all of it 13:06:33 and it was so obvious when I saw it 13:10:37 Nice 13:12:29 now the problem is that my interrupt-driven IO is losing characters 13:12:43 this is probably a side effect of that this board is running at 8 MHz 13:13:02 because that's how Matthias configured it in the code I copied 13:13:10 (there's a reason my code is GPL3 - lol) 13:13:35 Why is it GPL3? 13:13:43 because it allows me to copy Matthias's code 13:13:51 His code is GPL3? 13:13:54 yes 13:14:03 Where is Matthias' code? 13:14:10 normally I license my own code as BSD3 13:15:05 https://sourceforge.net/projects/mecrisp/files/ 13:16:31 http://mecrisp.sourceforge.net/ 13:16:41 I now license code as 'public domain' equivalents because I don't think I have the right to hold potential legal power or stress over people that use my code 13:17:21 I have also actually seen people avoid stuff because they don't want to include copyright info, but would happily use it if it was like e.g. sqlite where they don't have to attribute or anything 13:18:22 I've had the problem with zeptoforth that I've had to guess what the correct copyright notice is 13:18:41 because I've copied code from Matthias but he didn't put a proper copyright notice on his own code 13:18:50 so I don't know the proper copyright date to use 13:18:59 Hmm 13:19:28 As open source code you're probably going to attribute anyway, or at the least you would admit you copied it if confronted 13:19:43 so I figure "well, most of his code is from 2013, so this code probably as well" 13:20:03 So I wonder what the point of using copyright law is here to 'force' people to put the 'correct' message down 'somewhere'. 13:20:51 Microsoft actually got complaints for putting MIT copyrights in Windows, because email worms would pick up those addresses and spam the recipients at totally ridiculous rates, millions of emails a day 13:21:03 I mean email addresses in the notices they copied 13:21:07 ah 13:21:30 why, MIT notices require email addresses? 13:23:20 They do if you put the email in there 13:23:56 You can imagine Microsoft's logic here anyway, "just put the whole thing in so we can't possibly get in trouble" and then people are angry anyway 13:24:40 I never put my email in my copyright notices - lol 13:24:52 putting one's email in a copyright notice seems insane 13:25:00 I am doing public domain equivalent licenses, because it says "you know what, if you take the code and don't attribute me I would not like that, but I will not sue you". 13:25:23 tabemann: Old GPL template (and probably current template) suggests putting an actual address, not just an email, in the copyright 13:25:52 obviously whoever wrote that did not live in the modern age 13:26:46 How else do you prove it is you who is said to own the code? 13:27:00 The criteria for that proof used to be stricter 13:27:00 --- quit: reepca (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:27:28 --- join: reepca joined #forth 13:27:39 And I won't call Richard Stallman not living in the modern age, not when he's attributed on so much of the software I use every day 13:28:15 what I mean is that 1990 wasn't the modern age 13:28:28 one didn't have to worry about doxxers and email bots in that age 13:29:23 sometimes I wonder if it was as bad idea for me to actually do my software development under my actual name 13:29:35 No I think that's the best approach 13:29:36 RMS has a significant impact on the modern age but that doesn't mean he lives in it 13:30:31 Hide in plain sight 13:30:36 my point was that when the old GPL was written it was in an age before doxxers and email harvesting bots 13:31:38 where you didn't have to worry about being swatted and whatnot 13:32:55 I have my full address on my website (as required by law) and I don't particular fear swatting. seems more of a country specific quirk 13:33:24 There have always been people you don't want to make enemies of, and it's never been as simple as just speaking your mind and expecting no fallout or backlash. 13:34:24 full address on your website? 13:35:48 the only thing I ever put my full address on is my resume, and I often doubt the wisdom of that 13:36:48 --- quit: reepca (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:37:05 --- join: reepca joined #forth 13:38:32 Say what you can afford 13:38:45 tabemann: German media laws: anything that's considered commercial media needs to identify a responsible person. While my site isn't commercial in nature (ads would make it commercial already), the interpretation of that stuff changes over time, and there are less issues with putting an address there than potentially having to deal with a cease&desist 13:41:31 that seems like it essentially bans privacy 13:47:28 it depends, I could probably drop the section, but I'd always have to look out for whether what I do requires to put it back 13:48:52 and for a long time (before GDPR) for .de domains that data was available through whois anyway 13:57:39 here in the US such information is available via whois by default, but there are ways of anonymizing 14:06:17 --- quit: reepca (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:06:42 --- join: reepca joined #forth 14:18:05 --- quit: reepca (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:18:19 --- join: reepca joined #forth 14:41:39 ugh 14:41:58 getting interrupt IO working on the L476 was a breeze compared to this 14:47:36 again, this is running with an 8 MHz clock while the L476 was running at a 48 MHz clock 14:47:59 then again, I deliberately slowed down the systick to try to alleviate issues 14:54:14 --- quit: reepca (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:54:26 --- join: reepca joined #forth 15:31:37 --- quit: reepca (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:32:03 --- join: reepca joined #forth 15:36:28 --- quit: reepca (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 15:37:39 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 18:58:59 --- join: boru` joined #forth 18:59:02 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 18:59:05 --- nick: boru` -> boru 19:04:41 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 19:43:06 tabemann, Welcome to zeptoforth ok 19:43:06 2 2 + . 4 ok 19:44:19 words unable to parse: words 19:45:09 hey guys 19:45:18 that's because words is not in the kernel 19:47:04 i found that, uploading basic.fs now 19:47:14 so far so good 19:48:32 int_io.fs doesn't work right now, btw 19:48:42 no problemo 19:48:53 I've essentially given up on interrupt-driven IO 19:48:58 for the f407 19:48:59 I'm using picocom with a 200ms EOL ... so slow 19:49:11 good idea 19:49:39 interrupt-driven usart you mean ? 19:50:16 yeah 19:50:57 i considered doing that to mine also, but realised that the polled usart is plenty, the hold up is in the compiling 19:51:17 expecially with a 'slow' 75Mhz f0 19:51:57 it's easily able to handle 460800 baud in polled mode 19:52:46 ok, words is working :) 19:53:55 back 19:54:21 matthias version was like that, so I wrote a 4 column word lister I named words4 19:54:24 words4 19:54:24 --- MS RA 2.5.1 tpmod --- 19:54:24 2dup 2drop 2swap 2nip 19:54:24 2over 2tuck 2rot 2-rot 19:54:24 2>r 2r> 2r@ 2rdrop 19:54:25 d2/ d2* dshr dshl 19:54:31 the reason why I'm trying to get some kind of asychronous IO working is getting multitasking working 19:55:04 without constant PAUSEs trashing IO performance 19:55:17 but I'm finding that IO performance is being trashed regardless 19:55:17 ahh! 19:56:22 the cooperative multitasker for Mecrisp-Stellaris works nicely (until overloaded) but uses too many resources for me 19:57:24 I looked at some of the best OSS real time systems such as Freertos but they are huge for F0 19:57:47 so I decided that a scheduler is all I want for f0 19:58:04 okay 19:58:42 I figured out that even when I comment out all my IO hooks, IO doesn't work with the multitasker on f407 19:58:43 sure the F4 is very powerful compared to the F0 but it's still very,very limited compared to a pc 19:59:01 maybe I should figure out some way to speed it up 19:59:15 speed what up ? 19:59:34 the f407 19:59:40 from its default of 8 MHz 19:59:56 oh yeah it's a slug at 8mhz 20:00:15 there is Mecrisp-Stellaris user code to speed it up 20:01:14 pll-120mhz.txt for the non RA 20:01:36 I hear they go to 220 MHz and was going to try that sometime 20:03:16 now that the basics are working I'll add RTS handshaking to your assembly code 20:03:22 (or try to) 20:03:43 and up the baud to my usual 460800 20:12:15 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 20:27:25 back 20:35:20 okay, I got simpler IO working with multitasking at 168 MHz 20:35:34 so I'm going to see of interrupt-driven IO works at 168 MHz 20:35:51 168MHz will be a lot faster 20:39:46 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 20:41:04 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 20:41:33 yah 20:42:37 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 20:45:57 --- quit: proteus-like (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 20:49:14 ugh why is systick giving me trouble all of a sudden 21:06:25 --- join: reepca joined #forth 21:35:23 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 21:52:28 tp 21:52:33 check out the code now 21:52:56 ok 21:53:10 it works... except that if you *slow down* the systick too much USART IO gets screwed up 21:53:52 I get the impression it's due to the USART interrupt not waking up the code from sleep 21:54:04 so it's relying upon the systicks to get wakeups so it can do IO 21:54:23 --- quit: cartwright (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 21:55:03 so the systick goes too fast 21:55:03 hmm 21:56:18 overall it works, except that ms is broken 21:56:39 I don't have this problem on the L476 though 21:57:55 the L series have a lot of differences to ? 21:58:01 tho 21:59:07 --- join: cartwright joined #forth 21:59:50 my guess is there is some interrupt wakeup mask thing going on that I don't know about that's only in the F4 MCUs 22:00:48 anyways, I do have to get to bed 22:01:08 interrupts can cause all kinds of weirdness, I think one has to specially instrument them 22:01:30 np, it's working fine, Im just uploading basic.fs atm 22:05:04 yes, I just confirmed it 22:05:11 it's the sleep that causing the problem 22:05:30 I'm going to turn off sleeping for the time being 22:05:43 --- quit: Keshl (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:06:17 --- join: Keshl joined #forth 22:06:23 ok, I'll use the latest commit 22:07:19 just did a commit a second ago 22:07:48 a simple test to make sure it works is: 22:08:02 : test begin ." *" 1000 ms again ; 22:08:10 ' test 256 256 256 spawn constant test-task 22:08:15 test-task enable-task 22:09:50 ok 22:10:03 btw I can do current measurements here when you like 22:10:15 as we have the same f4 disco 22:10:16 cool 22:10:28 I do have to get to bed though 22:10:41 just post what youd like done and I'll do the test and post the results 22:10:43 sure 22:11:03 we can work on it by leaving text here 22:11:12 noght-o 22:11:18 night-o 22:11:57 I'll have to look in the irc-logs because my IRC client cuts off the log at a certain length 22:12:21 it's pretty quiet here 22:13:08 (I used to use a home-grown IRC client that had unlimited length logs but then my ISP blocked port 6667 for some reason so I had to switch to TLS and my IRC client doesn't support TLS) 22:13:14 anyways good night 22:13:20 night-o 22:13:26 and let me know how much luck you have with zeptoforth 22:13:33 will do 22:50:22 --- join: iyzsong- joined #forth 22:50:37 --- quit: iyzsong (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 22:50:51 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 23:14:38 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 23:28:24 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 23:29:31 --- join: xek joined #forth 23:33:37 --- join: xek_ joined #forth 23:34:10 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 23:41:35 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 23:50:16 --- quit: xek_ (Remote host closed the connection) 23:50:40 --- join: xek_ joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.03.29