00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.03.25 00:14:20 --- join: Keshl_ joined #forth 00:14:52 --- quit: Keshl (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 00:14:59 --- quit: xek_ (Remote host closed the connection) 00:15:18 --- join: xek_ joined #forth 00:18:44 --- quit: tp (Remote host closed the connection) 00:19:50 --- join: tp joined #forth 00:36:32 Good morning folks 01:16:45 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 01:36:36 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 02:01:37 --- join: nighty- joined #forth 02:04:53 --- quit: nighty- (Remote host closed the connection) 04:04:03 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection) 04:10:25 --- quit: mtsd (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 04:14:14 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 04:34:12 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 04:47:44 --- quit: mtsd (Remote host closed the connection) 04:48:07 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 04:52:30 --- quit: mtsd (Client Quit) 05:01:35 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 05:45:19 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 06:23:12 --- quit: iyzsong (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 06:47:21 hey guys 07:19:17 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 07:39:08 hey tabemann, talking to your F407 yet ? 07:44:09 hasn't come by UPS yet 07:44:11 lol 07:44:36 I ordered it by "UPS ground", so it may be a bit until I receive it 07:44:46 but I don't need it like tomorrow 07:44:52 oh yeah. right at in the middle of covid-19 07:45:36 right now I've been making more looping/conditional/iteration constructs 07:45:52 like now you can iterate over a getter function 07:46:14 like write something like: 07:46:21 create foobar 0 , 1 , 2 , 3 , 07:46:33 and then : getter cells foobar + @ ; 07:47:06 and then : test ['] getter 4 [: 2 * . ;] iter-get ; 07:47:21 we call '@' "fetch" 07:47:40 but hey, youre the programmer here! 07:47:59 I mean a function with the signature ( i -- x ) 07:48:53 as a tech I lack most of the correct programmer terminology 07:48:57 well, actually ( ??? i -- ??? x ) because I hide the looping construct's state on the return stack 07:49:12 oh '@' can be called fetch 07:49:21 I first heard the term 'getter' in about 1964 07:49:43 even though in the sources of zeptoforth I call it 'get' 07:49:50 and now most people will never hear that word used in the context I did every again 07:50:08 when I read "@" I say "fetch" 07:50:24 when I see "!" I say "store" 07:50:39 I do call '!' "store" 07:50:40 ever seen a thermionic valve ? 07:51:02 oh I know what a "getter" is on a vacuum tube 07:51:09 really! 07:51:26 well I'm impressed 07:51:36 not a usage I come across very often, for obvious reasons, but I've heard it 07:51:51 I'm more used to the Java meaning of the term these days 07:52:00 yeah, valves are all but dead nowdays except for special purposes 07:52:18 I know that some audiophiles still use vacuum tubes 07:52:35 you know how astronauts say that 'space smells like burnt steak' 07:52:48 no I don't 07:52:50 --- quit: Bunny351 (Remote host closed the connection) 07:53:26 if you get a old valve and break it then smell the anode, it too smells like burnt steak 07:53:29 --- join: Bunny351 joined #forth 07:53:33 --- quit: Bunny351 (Remote host closed the connection) 07:54:01 well it smells like I guess what the astronauts mean by 'burnt steak' 07:54:03 --- join: Bunny351 joined #forth 07:54:24 it's a odd smell, Ive known it since I was a young kid 07:55:45 for a tech, micros are mainly about fetch and store as those commands relate to talking to the real world outside the micro 07:57:08 which for the Arduino people have been hidden behind HAL calls 07:57:13 tabemann, are you still going in to work these days, or working from home ? 07:57:30 I'm going to work from home today 07:57:37 yeah, so much is hidden from them 07:58:00 we have an order that started from 8 am today to stay at home for non-essential work 07:58:09 but of course, they love that and feel 'protected' 07:58:21 ah good! 07:59:19 arduino users 'hate' arm mcus, they dont want to have to read 'massive boring tech manuals' that 'waste their time' 08:01:23 this is a reply, posted just today to a forum question "Re: What µC are you preferring?" 08:01:38 okay, I'm gonna get off - gonna start work 08:01:41 "8-bit AVRs. Really easy to setup the peripherals with good community support. Up until now I didn;t had to the need for something more complex or powerful. I really "hate" ARM micros with huge datasheets and difficult peripherals configuration and stock libraries that causes more problem than you would expect from the company that designed the part." 08:01:59 ok, np, thanks for the chat 08:07:30 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 08:14:25 the MSP432 is kind of neat in that regard 08:14:41 supposedly MSP430 peripherals which are very easy grafted onto 80mhz ARM 08:15:32 MrMobius, ? It's been my observation that the MSP430 peripherals are tightly coupled with the MSP430 core 08:15:53 which is only 16 bit 08:16:28 what do you mean by "tighyl coupled"? you right some data at an address to configure something then read and write data to communicate, right? 08:16:30 and this tight integration makes programming and using the MSP430 really simple 08:16:52 sure, but the classic is the 'low power mode' 08:17:07 thats not really a peripheral though 08:17:34 on msp430 it's just one instruction and everything peripheral goes low power 08:17:48 i see what you mean 08:17:59 but on cortex-m low power is far from simple 08:18:24 there was a guy on the msp430 advocating for this product saying it would be very successful 08:18:29 and far from the MSP430 'single instruction' 08:18:36 not sure how much of him saying that swayed anyone at TI 08:18:53 but it was produced eventually 08:18:56 msp430 is outstanding, I absolutely agree 08:19:27 the neat thing would be if they found a way to do the same on the MSP432 to make it go low power in an easy way 08:19:28 but if you dont mind a lot of confusion and suffering, cortex-m is more capable and cheaper 08:20:13 ya cortex m is impressive 08:20:15 with arm it seems that the peripherals are all just 'tacked onto' the cortex-m cores 08:20:52 right. i think ARM just gives you the core and its up to the manufacturer to graft on peripherals 08:20:52 I use and prefer cortex-m0 myself, but I also have msp430 and know them reasonably well 08:21:10 did you ever play with the LPC1114? 08:21:16 dunno if youre opposed to DIP stuff 08:21:33 --- part: Bunny351 left #forth 08:21:40 msp430 assembly is just a thing of beauty, on a par with the mc6800 that I have always preferred above all others 08:22:19 its nice. there are some annoying things about it but all in all its good 08:22:20 when I can back to embedded in 2014 I bought a boc full of mcus, all from Avenet in dallas 08:23:47 that included LPC1769 and LPC1114FN28 but I was never able to talk to them with Linux 08:23:48 I know its just a limitation of trying to fit everything into 16 bits but it would have been nice to have @Rn addressing for destination 08:24:46 so I bypassed NXP altogether for cortex-m which worked easily right away on Linux 08:24:46 so did you just pick out a bunch of MCUs when you ordered? 08:24:49 I did 08:25:03 do you still have the LPC1114s? 08:25:14 I had last used PIC16F at that stage 08:25:31 probably, I havent thrown any thing away 08:25:49 a guy in the msp430 channel told me about them about 5 years ago and I got a couple and really liked them before they stopped producing them 08:25:49 it's all in a box 08:26:33 I'm not a msp430 expert by any means, and have only written a few simple blinkies in assembly 08:26:46 let me know if you want to get rid of them. that same guy was gonna sell me his last 5 but he passed away a few months ago 08:27:16 I prefer my msp430 binaries to be generated by Mecrisp-Across via Forth 08:27:37 I'll have a look, it may only be a dev board or 2 08:28:01 I didnt buy any bulk LPC chips as I did with PIC and cortex-m 08:28:03 ahh ok. I, just looking for the dip chips, which I believe FN28 is, if you have those 08:28:16 I wont have any of the chips 08:28:27 as the boards were a total fail for me 08:28:36 that sucks :/ 08:28:47 yeah, I had high hopes 08:29:02 the neat thing is the dip chip would work on a breadboard with like one cap and one resistor if you have an ft232 cable 08:29:08 I spent weeks trying to get them usable but eventually just gave up 08:29:17 very easy. seems no one had problems programming them 08:29:23 lol, I did 08:29:32 the dip ones I mean 08:29:59 the annoying thing to me is just getting a make file to make a Hello, World program for that chip 08:30:00 I couldnt talk to them at all, but the boards I bought had a inbuilt programmer etc 08:30:59 I see. did they work under wine 08:31:00 ? 08:31:04 none of the arm 'code' worked, I soon gave up on that, but at least I was able to flash the chips easily using the disco board 08:31:21 I didnt try using wine, I refuse to use it 08:31:38 Id had a gut full of windows by then 08:32:35 I had gone full time to Linux in 1997, but my first 'real computing' was unix on 68000 cpus 08:32:57 other than that it was all embedded on many different dev systems from 1972 08:33:44 I hated interacting with windows tho I ran win95 for a couple of years and had to maintain win3.1 for a while as a subcontractor 08:34:45 so in 2014, PIC18 and 24 series worked fine (after frigging around with PIKIT and microchips java based crap) 08:34:57 cortex-m was easy 08:35:06 XNP was a fail 08:35:21 the AVR stuff was horrific, I really dont like it 08:36:14 I couldnt talk to the the modern fast 8051 based chips from silabs 08:37:16 MrMobius, so you have had a bit of embedded hardware experience ? 09:42:44 --- quit: phadthai (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 09:47:29 --- quit: jimt[m] (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 09:47:54 --- quit: siraben (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 09:55:57 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 09:57:17 --- quit: Mellowli1 (Quit: Mellowli1) 10:01:16 --- join: jimt[m] joined #forth 10:06:38 --- join: siraben joined #forth 10:24:46 tp, interesting how many people go turned off bc of windows 3.1 and 95 shenanigans and jumped ship 10:25:14 a lot of that was fixed by 98 second edition. by that point I would get the blue screen 2-3 times a year with daily use 10:26:02 never was interested in AVR stuff since im into electronics for building calculators. there are no AVRs in thoughhole with an external memory bus 10:26:39 there are several single cycle ones like the silabs chips though that come in DIP. very impressive for an 8 bit chip if you can get around the typical 8051 weirdness 10:27:23 tp, not really. just tinkering for fun so not yet technician level like you :) 10:27:40 --- join: phadthai joined #forth 10:27:55 ^single cycles ones = 8051 10:31:59 tp: I have seen a thermionic valve in use. In the power amp stage of an fm transmitter 11:36:14 --- quit: tp (Remote host closed the connection) 11:36:30 --- join: tp joined #forth 11:36:31 --- quit: tp (Changing host) 11:36:31 --- join: tp joined #forth 11:42:07 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 12:45:26 tp: what have you been working on lately? 14:01:35 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 14:11:02 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 14:17:37 --- quit: xek_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 14:39:59 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 14:41:29 --- quit: nmz (Quit: WeeChat 2.7) 15:07:56 Schools here are terrible 15:33:32 Would there be a significant benefit from words that don't consume their arguments even though that's the standard? I seem to run into a lot of situations where I have to "dup rest" 15:49:32 --- quit: Keshl_ (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 16:01:16 MrMobius, aha, calculators, very cool 16:02:20 Zarutian_HTC, and valves are still used in high power RF transmitters afaik, nothing else happily takes 10KV at 0.5 amp month after month without blowing up 16:04:24 MrMobius, I agonised over buying a the first commerialy avaiable Canon 8 digit led calculator around 1969, but common sense (finally) prevailed and I didn't buy it because it was worth months of my junior tech salary 16:04:46 but the lust factor very high! 16:06:53 MrMobius, years later when HP came out with their high end calculators, it was exactly the same thing again, not for the common working tech, but this time the lust factor was 10x higher 16:45:00 --- join: cheers joined #forth 16:45:09 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 16:45:10 --- join: Keshl joined #forth 16:48:25 hey guys 16:48:42 hey tabemann 16:49:52 I saw what you quoted from the person complaining about ARMs 16:50:34 it's quite common, a 'generic' attitude I'm my experience 16:50:43 * tabemann isn't bothered by ARM's "massive boring tech manuals" 16:51:13 excellent! to a tech they're really enjoyable 16:51:54 writing a compiler for Thumb-2 wasn't really hard either 16:52:14 even though I was kind of cheating because I was using the assembler to "compile" inlined words 16:52:16 a mcu technical manual to me is like reading the owners manual for a new tesla3, it's fun 16:52:58 lol, if youre not writing machine code by hand on a hex keypad you must be 'cheating' ;-) 16:53:38 everyone uses a assembler to create thumb inlined Forth words! 16:54:00 writing an inliner was actually very easy 16:54:11 i see it throughout the user submitted Forth programs 16:54:45 tabemann, have a look at this excellent article sometime: https://medium.com/techmaker/reverse-engineering-stm32-firmware-578d53e79b3 16:54:50 I need to read ARM manual 16:54:57 it essentially takes a word with an "inlined" flag, and it strips off the push {lr} and pop {pc} and bx lr instructions, and then copies it into place 16:55:02 it's a demo of radare2 16:55:52 yeah, Ive been working on a automated method to make inlined machine code Words easier 16:56:37 do most forths come with a word 'times' ? 16:56:40 but it's a low priority as Mecrisp-Stellaris makes Words smaller and faster than I using any technique 17:00:23 I need to spend some time improving my compiler, as the only real optimization it does is inlining 17:01:05 and then it's got its limitation of having to pad words to 16 bytes when compiling to flash - ugh 17:02:26 pad ? do you men it has to start each word on a 16 byte boundary ? 17:02:30 mean 17:03:42 it starts each word on a 4 byte boundary and ends each word on a 16 byte boundary 17:04:05 the reason for the first is so that the next pointer is aligned 17:04:22 due to 16 byte minimum flash size ? 17:04:41 the reason for the latter is so that writing to flash can be finalized, and there's a 16 byte minimum flash size 17:04:41 yeah, alignment 17:04:51 understand 17:04:52 to my knowledge 17:05:03 I think matthias does some trickery there 17:05:09 in some cases 17:05:22 even though matthias's source file implies that there might be an 8 byte minimum which he just hasn't implemented using 17:05:34 which would be great 17:06:36 for instance the f1 has a halfword minimum but there is a c, Word available 17:07:31 and with it I can flash an array with bytes, but I think he does some pre processing to make it possible 17:07:38 I should see what the difference between the l476 and the f407 is, because from matthias's code it appears that it can write bytes 17:07:58 well that's simple 17:08:09 maybe to you :) 17:08:34 you make a register that stores the current halfword, and a flag that stores whether a byte has already been written to it 17:09:12 if the flag is 0, write the byte to the lower byte of the register 17:09:17 and set the flag to -1 17:09:37 ;------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 17:09:37 ; Specials for STM32F401, STM32F411, STM32F407 and STM32F429: 17:09:37 ;------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 17:09:39 if the flag is -1, write the byte to the higher byte of the register 17:09:54 cflash! ( char c-addr -- ) Writes byte to flash 17:09:55 hflash! ( u|n a-addr -- ) Writes halfword to flash 17:10:01 and then write it out to flash 17:10:14 that does sound simple 17:10:41 and then set the flag back to 0 17:11:15 it comes out to something like: 17:11:24 but you have to wait until both bytes of the halfword are available before it can be written 17:11:34 yes 17:11:48 I adopted a far more complex system than this 17:12:02 to allow for deferred writes and like 17:12:18 still, it makes one appreciate how complex USB sticks must be ;-) 17:12:35 what about cache effects etc 17:12:36 ? 17:12:39 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 17:12:51 writing to flash flushes the cache IIRC 17:13:07 no, not always 17:13:18 well, I mean, the code that writes to flash also flushes the cache in zeptoforth 17:13:30 some of the newish cortex-m's need a special instruction to be run 17:13:37 ahh 17:13:55 I have (briefly) wondered about that method 17:14:16 but as a tech I dont like to wander too far from my comfort zone at the one time 17:15:02 I personally find things like peripheral configuration to be black magic myself 17:15:28 I mean while youre making clever assembly code, Im probably machining something on my mill or lathe 17:15:32 whereas I found the systick to be trivial, and the code that actually writes data to and reads data from USART2 to be trivial 17:15:55 yeah, I agree that systick and usarts are easy, even for me 17:16:22 and Ive been working with peripherals for so long I cant remember if they were ever had 17:16:35 the part I didn't get was initializing the USART 17:17:22 for instance I used to graft a motorola dual 8 bit gpio chip to Z80's, 6802's, 8085's etc 17:18:33 i can imagine that peripheral initialization will be a difficult job for a programmer as one must understand what all the bitfields do out in the real world 17:19:20 and the inits usually depend on the application as evidenced by just how MANY bitfields there are 17:20:05 right now I'm mainly concerned with initializing code so that it will serve zeptoforth 17:20:08 's purposes 17:20:53 in the same way that a tech cannot become a programming expert overnight, a programmer cannot become a hardware expert overnight, both professions take decades of daily use to master 17:21:15 of course, and all you need for that is a terminal 17:21:20 which is why copying from matthias works, because what mecrisp-stellaris needs is essentially what zeptoforth needs 17:21:24 and manipulating flash 17:21:31 of course 17:22:37 but even considering the terminal, what speed will you use ? will you use xon/xoff or hardware handshaking (RTS), will you use interrupts or DMA or polling, will you use a ring buffer ? 17:23:02 there is plenty to consider with a usart 17:23:29 and why use 115200 baud, it's so slow ? 17:23:55 I use a minimum 460800 baud only because Screen has can't go any faster 17:24:24 if I could I'd go into the megabits/s 17:24:46 with zeptoforth, I use two different approaches to the USART; the first, on bootup, is to just read one byte at a time and put it in a buffer; the second, is, during PAUSE it grabs as many bytes as it can and puts them in a 16 byte circular buffer, to be slurped up by tasks as they see fit 17:24:58 I always use hardware handshaking as it's by far the fastest and least problematic 17:25:21 but I'm using serial over USB, so... 17:25:36 yeah, no options 17:25:59 what will you use with the F4 disco as it has no ethernet port ? 17:26:01 oops 17:26:25 the l476 disco has no ethernet port either 17:26:36 it has a usb port tho 17:26:44 yes 17:27:42 matthias wrote a ethernet driver for the tm4c1294, works like a charm 17:27:49 the f4 disco has a USB port it seems 17:27:52 Bernd Paysan also helped him 17:28:00 it does indeed 17:28:08 I have one here in front of me 17:28:20 I'm gonna have dinner now, so I'll be back later 17:28:26 no problemo 17:29:46 I see people on embedded forums claiming that usb and ethernet drivers are too hard to write so anything without them premade must be avoided, yet Forth people wrote both for cortex-m 17:30:43 --- quit: deesix (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 17:31:26 --- join: deesix joined #forth 17:38:42 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 18:00:26 back 18:11:05 wb 18:11:08 how was dinner 18:18:14 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 18:18:20 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 18:28:28 it was good 18:28:39 * tabemann added words to enable and disable interrupts 18:28:49 eint and dint ? 18:30:23 apparently writing the ethernet driver for the tm4c1294 (cortex-m4) eas easy enough, the main problem was the ti doc was full of errors 18:30:52 erroneous documentation is wonderful 18:31:07 I called the them enable-int and disable-int 18:31:13 *them 18:31:17 i have a couple of tm4c1294 dev boards and the ethernet connection is damn fast, but I couldnt integrate it into Screen so use a serial connection instead 18:31:59 matthias wont spend time with the tm4c1294, he says it's the M4 to avoid 18:32:27 plus the tm4c1294 has more bitfields than anything else, it's crazy 18:33:09 tabemann, too many characters! 18:33:13 tp were you lusting after an HP 41 back then? 18:33:48 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 18:34:04 MrMobius, probably not, the model back then only had leds 18:34:50 I'm going to add a "sleep" word 18:34:56 dsb followed by wfi 18:35:52 as the HP was out of reach I took out a loan for a TI-59 with the mag strips 18:36:10 MrMobius, but I hated the TI keys, cheap and nasty 18:37:33 tabemann, there are three low power modes, sleep, stop and standby 18:38:16 for the cortex-m 18:38:41 and the F model is much simpler than the L model 18:39:09 but the L model has a ton of extra configs for peripheral low power clocks 18:39:27 it's a confusing and complex situation I find 18:40:50 I'm just planning on implementing a word that calls DSB followed by WFI 18:41:13 WFI obviously means Wait For Interrupt 18:41:47 yeah, or you can use WFE 18:42:02 what's the difference between WFI and WFE? 18:42:12 WFE is wait for event 18:42:19 or not ... 18:42:24 lol, I havent used it 18:43:04 but you need WFI to initiate a low power mode 18:43:42 yeah, what I'm reading only talks about WFI 18:43:45 and DSB 18:43:47 I know programmers who have spent 6 months trying to get a L model to minimum low power, and it was driving them nuts 18:44:18 WFI is the most common 18:45:48 now my issue is how do I get the processor to generate an interrupt on USART RX 18:46:14 because sleeping is kind of useless if I can't use the REFL 18:46:42 it's a lotta fun I gotta tell ya! 18:46:52 keywords, NVIC 18:46:52 *REPL 18:48:27 I have a updated page on that here: https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/interrupts.html#interrupts 18:49:05 another thing is that different low power modes have different WAKE UP times 18:50:14 whats the bottom line ? the USART may take ages to wake up from low power and you may miss keystrokes 18:50:58 wait a s econd 18:51:03 Warning 18:51:03 NVIC numbers 0 - 32 are accessed by NVIC_ISER0_SETENA. NVIC numbers 33 - 63 are accessed by NVIC_ISER1_SETENA, and so on. This is mentioned in only ONE place in the reference, 18:51:06 MSP430 is fantastic in that regard as there is only one LP instruction, power drops to really low levels and it wakes up instantly from a key press 18:51:13 0 - 32? 18:51:23 thats right 18:51:26 there's only 32 bits in a word? 18:51:36 *word 18:51:39 *word! 18:51:42 no there are 32 bits in a word 18:51:47 or 'cell' 18:51:54 I misspoke 18:52:02 what I mean is that 0-32 are 33 bits 18:52:21 0-31 would be 32 bits 18:52:21 oops! 18:52:26 error!!! 18:54:40 thanks for that, fixed 18:55:10 it may pay to make up some words to handle that situation 18:55:36 Mecrisp-Stellaris users have done that in various ways 18:56:22 tip: low power on cortex-m is non trivial, dont expect to master it in a few hours 18:57:30 about that interrupt page, I'm attempting to wrap my brain around it... 18:59:31 i find it easy now, but it took me years 19:00:00 and I know I havent got anywhere near to mastering cortex-m low power yet 19:00:20 at least I understand how cortex-m interrupts work 19:00:42 I means some of the models have literally hundreds of interrupts 19:01:10 I just want a damn USART to generate a damn interrupt on RX 19:01:21 that shouldn't be so hard! 19:01:49 I use 3 interrupts in my 'touch sensor' demo and even had to alter the priorities to prevent an issue 19:01:59 but it works perfectly 19:02:31 Mecrisp-Stellaris only polls the USART 19:02:58 but lets look at the available interrupts on your mcu 19:06:10 right now I'm also only polling 19:11:21 NVIC_ICER7 ! 19:11:49 my m0 has ONE, ICER, the F1 has 2, yours has 7 ! 19:12:14 but thats the L models, much more complex 19:12:43 you need dm00046982-stm32-cortexm4-mcus-and-mpus-programming-manual-stmicroelectronics.pdf for that info 19:15:50 on the STM32L476 you also have a "low power usart" 19:15:52 there is not a single mention of "USART" or "UART" in that document 19:16:03 which is probably the one you should be using for low power 19:16:21 no, it's the ARM core stuff only 19:16:31 as I figured 19:16:31 but vital 19:18:54 also matthias has afloating point API in the /common directory of Mecrisp-Stellaris 19:20:13 you also need document: RM0351 19:20:37 and in that, page: 1374/1880 RM0351 Rev 6 19:20:54 40.6 USART low-power modes 19:21:03 40.7 USART interrupts 19:21:20 Table 250. USART interrupt requests 19:21:21 Interrupt event Event flag Enable Control 19:21:21 bit 19:21:21 Transmit data register empty TXE 19:21:21 CTS interrupt CTSIF TXEIE 19:21:21 Transmission Complete CTSIE 19:21:23 Receive data register not empty (data ready to be read) TC TCIE 19:21:25 Overrun error detected RXNE 19:21:27 Idle line detected ORE RXNEIE 19:21:29 IDLE 19:21:31 IDLEIE 19:22:35 back 19:22:39 Table 250. USART interrupt requests (continued) 19:22:39 Interrupt event Event flag Enable Control 19:22:39 bit 19:22:39 Parity error PE PEIE 19:22:39 LIN break LBDF LBDIE 19:22:42 Noise Flag, Overrun error and Framing Error in multibuffer 19:22:44 communication. NF or ORE or FE EIE 19:22:46 Character match 19:22:48 Receiver timeout CMF CMIE 19:22:50 End of Block RTOF RTOIE 19:22:52 Wakeup from Stop mode EOBF EOBIE 19:22:54 Transmission complete before guard time(2) WUF(1) WUFIE 19:22:56 TCBGT TCBGTIE 19:22:58 1. The WUF interrupt is active only in Stop mode. 19:23:00 2. Available on STM32L496xx/4A6xx devices only. 19:23:26 so tons of interrupts for you, probably event flag 'TC' ? 19:24:05 but then you need to choose, will you be waking from stop mode ? 19:24:10 etc 19:24:38 WFI seems to put the processor in sleep mode 19:24:56 it puts it into ANY LP mode 19:25:08 depending on the config 19:25:25 but the unconfigured mode is SLEEP iirc 19:25:41 I'll just bother with SLEEP for now 19:25:53 I can try to make it go lower power than that later 19:25:53 good idea 19:25:58 absolutely 19:26:27 this is one of those times it pays to instrument the device 19:26:50 you could use a USB power monitor to do that 19:27:11 but then you get the whole disco load 19:28:01 or a multimeter plugged into the purpose provided MCU power option jumper on a disco board 19:28:36 thats what I do, but even measuring this stuff accurately is very hard 19:29:06 for instance at 75MHz there is a LOT of RF which screws around with analog amp meters 19:29:40 so I use a system of metallic film to shield stuff 19:36:00 back 19:41:57 question 19:42:16 what kind of interrupt should I be using for a USART? 19:44:59 --- join: boru` joined #forth 19:45:02 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 19:45:05 --- nick: boru` -> boru 19:45:30 that depends on your design 19:46:09 I just want an interrupt to wake up my application so I can receive bits from the USART and send bits to the USART 19:46:10 perhaps the Receive data register not empty (data ready to be read) 'TC' flag ? 19:46:34 I'm using RXNE and TXE 19:46:36 well receiving bits will activate the TC flag 19:47:06 but I mean is how do I set up the USART to actually raise the appropriate exception? 19:47:22 (this is stuff I very much am not in the know about) 19:47:37 you will also NEED page 396/1880 of doc RM0351 Rev 6 19:47:46 ok, I can help there 19:51:54 in the file I made for you, you need to open in read-only mode in your editor "bitfields.fs" 19:52:07 then highlight "usart2' 19:52:21 and look at the highlighted words 19:52:34 this all comes from the same source as the reference manual 19:52:42 which is CMSIS-SVD 19:53:42 youll see lines highlighted such as ": RCC_APB1SMENR1_USART2SMEN %1 17 lshift RCC_APB1SMENR1 bis! ; \ RCC_APB1SMENR1_USART2SMEN USART2 clocks enable during Sleep and Stop modes" 19:54:25 if you dont clock it during Sleep and Stop modes then it won't receive any data and can't interrupt on rx data 19:55:34 at this point you should be intuiting the lack of triviality in the low power and interrupt setup 19:55:56 but dont worry, youre not alone 19:56:36 incedentally to do this with "Mecrisp" on the MSP430, it's *one* command 19:56:45 and that takes care of everything 19:57:33 the power meter drops to 4uA until you hit a terminal key at which point the power jumps and the key is seen in the teminal 19:59:23 back 20:08:34 I'm still confused as to how to set up the interrupts 20:08:47 I know that I have to set TXEIE and RXNEIE 20:09:05 and that I have to clock USART2 while sleeping or stopped 20:09:30 but my question is how do I turn it into an interrupt mapped to a particular vector 20:10:40 actually youre omitting critical information 20:10:46 I didn't quite understand the page about EXTIs and such 20:11:04 you DONT set TXEIE 20:11:42 I thought that TXE was the bit set at the interrupt 20:11:51 and TXEIE was the bit to enable the interrupt 20:14:27 I'm already monitoring TXE and RXNE for polling purposes 20:15:29 you set "USART2_CR1_TXEIE" 20:15:40 that's what I mean 20:15:41 NOT "TXEIE" 20:16:20 then youre in for a world of confusion along anyone talking to you 20:16:33 this is why I wrote svd2forth 20:17:05 I guess you dont yet understand the full implications, which isnt a criticism, this is very complext stuff 20:17:27 if you search for "TXEIE" you find a bunch of them 20:17:48 but only one of them will actually make your config work 20:17:57 in this context I assumed it would be understood that I meant USART2_CR1_TXEIE 20:18:15 since obviously we're talking about USART2 20:18:24 and there's only one TXEIE for USART2 20:18:35 sure, there's a TXEIE for USART3 20:19:07 and so on 20:20:18 my issue now is how do we configure EXTI lines so that it raises one on which we have set an interrupt handler 20:20:39 youre also assuming that every peripheral has unique bitfield names I assume ? 20:21:07 no, I'm not 20:21:57 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 20:22:05 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 20:22:28 good, because they dont (sadly) 20:22:39 ok, the proceedure is roughly this 20:22:49 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 20:22:52 1) enable the NVIC 20:23:01 2) enable the peripheral interrupt 20:23:17 why would they not be made with unique names :( 20:23:33 2) enable any (overall) peripheral interrupt I mean 20:24:24 3) enable the specific peripheral bitfield interrupt 20:24:55 I'm also assuming that you have enabled chip wide interrupts 20:25:10 thats the general process 20:25:21 instrumenting is very handy 20:25:55 watch the interrupt flag in the area youre interested before setting the NVIC 20:26:47 it will be raised if the interrupt is activated, but nothing will happen without the NVIC being configured 20:26:57 so thats a easy way to start 20:27:12 if you cant raise the flag, keep configuring 20:35:38 I generally monitor the flag so I know when it's finally set, but I dont set the NVIC until the end 20:37:56 the NVIC enable (setena) word is then added to the interrupt for that item like this: 20:37:59 : tsc-init ( -- ) 20:38:00 ['] tsc-handler irq-tsc ! \ tie handler to interrupt 20:38:00 TSC-INTERRUPT NVIC_ISER_SETENA ! \ enable TSC interrupt 20:38:00 ; 20:39:02 once thats done, if the flag is raised, interrupt occurs and the interrupt handler will be run 20:42:35 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 20:45:58 god damn who designed this mess 20:46:48 60,000 people at arm ? 20:47:28 tp: is the mram version of MSP430 any good? 20:47:28 Have you looked at the GD32VD103 interrupt structure yet ? 20:47:31 --- quit: clitoris (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 20:47:48 Zarutian_HTC, I think any Ti stuff is good with MSP430 20:48:53 Zarutian_HTC, but I havent used a MSP430 in a real project yet, I have done a fair bit of tool making for the Mecrisp-Across tethered Forth that uses it 20:49:24 tp: no, I do not suffer from architecturis astronautus masochism 20:49:42 if someone is beginning micros I always recommend the MSP430 as everything is so well integrated 20:50:49 Zarutian_HTC, I like MCU pain, can you imagine what trying to learn the RCA CDP1802 was like ? 20:51:21 btw anyone knows if semi-fast CYMK epaper exists somewhere? 20:51:26 or programming a 5000 bottle a day industrial bottle filling machine in machine code ? 20:52:22 Zarutian_HTC, I seriously doubt and decent color epaper dispays exist 20:52:52 the problem is that epaper is not transparent 20:53:02 CDP? is that some sort of CPLDs MCU frankenstein? 20:53:10 sure people have been trying for ages 20:53:38 Zarutian_HTC, no it was just a wierd cmos mcu made by RCA way back 20:54:01 I think they had a radiation hardened version so a few went to space 20:54:51 well, I was planning to play around with tri colour epaper module from adafruit at the local fablab but then this virus happened 20:55:11 I wouldnt waste your money personally 20:55:25 the eink tech makes color virtually impossib;e 20:55:47 HP did it first, but the displays are seriously dim 20:56:01 remember, NO backlight is possible 20:56:46 no, the modules exist there already. Was from another kit setup there that finished its purpose 20:57:02 I use a kindle 'paper white' every night and have since I bought it about 8 years ago 20:57:13 I know they exist, but are dim 20:58:16 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 20:58:31 no backlight is actually plus. Intention is really low power use with very infrequent updates 20:58:56 I understand 20:59:33 b&W is great, color is a no-no for eink 21:00:47 had in mind using epaper, mram based msp430 running a forth (mecrisp likely), powered by a few scaps 21:01:40 sounds good! 21:01:46 tp: even if colour is done like paper printing? 21:02:18 Zarutian_HTC, maybe they have a new method that works ok 21:02:31 but HP failed to make usable color eink 21:02:37 last I heard 21:02:41 b&w might be okay tough 21:02:52 they did succeed, but it was too dim 21:03:14 b&w is much better, as bright as possible 21:03:51 dim? more like highly faded? that is saturation way down? 21:03:58 I suspect that adafruit got a bunch of dumped old color eink and are just selling to hobbyists 21:04:35 because light has to pass thru each eink layer with color then reflect back 21:04:45 it's hopeless 21:04:47 yeah that module has b&w&r per dot 21:05:08 two layer ? 21:05:39 ah I see, I thought they traded resolution for colour 21:05:44 b@W is good only 1 layer 21:05:54 I dont think they can 21:06:44 eink is basically like a egg per pixel, one side is black and one id white, a HV charge flips the egg 21:07:03 I dont think they can mix 'eggs' 21:07:15 it's applied like a paint 21:07:19 why not? or is it the ink/white mixing per 'capsule' dot 21:07:37 i think the latter 21:07:46 so they have to do color in layers 21:07:58 thats the big problem 21:08:34 oh I see. I would have had a repeating 2x2 tile of cymk 'eggs' 21:09:20 youll need really fine tweezers, a steady hand and LOTs of time ;-) 21:09:41 and dont sneeze! 21:09:48 I would used inkjet like deposition to get each 'egg' right 21:10:16 nyet! thats far too easy! 21:10:21 impossible! 21:12:04 Id try and find the tech used in the adafruit displays and the brightness etc before adding more useless junk to your 'useless junk box' 21:12:28 mine is full, if I buy any more, I'll need another box 21:13:24 one trick i had i mind for having the scaps topped up was to use solar cells like those credit card sized four banger calculators 21:13:53 good idea 21:14:27 you wont get any less current drain than from a MSP430 21:14:40 i dont mind, the modules are still at the fablab (junkbox outsourcing) 21:14:48 hahah 21:15:31 hobbysists thrive on blingy news, 100% of their projects end up in a box or on a cat feeder 21:15:41 well 99% 21:16:24 I used to say that there are no clueless arduino users with MSP430, but thats not true any more 21:16:37 'energia' is just arduino for MSP430 21:17:06 and the crazy thing is that MSP430 was always the easiest micro to learn from 21:17:12 the trick is to have a slab of plexiglass ontop of the epaper and the solarcells on the edges. Using the internal partial reflection of the plexi to gather some of the light 21:17:28 as they come in a cheap dev board with programmer/debugger 21:18:02 plus plexiglass will stop UV 21:18:20 here in Australia nothing lasts outside in the sun 21:18:40 wood goes rock hard like stone in 40 years 21:19:05 no adhesive tape stays stuc for more than 3 years 21:19:45 plastic cable ties, even the 'ir resistant' ones snap after 3 years 21:20:05 at least you can shade things from the sun here the constant rocking of temp around freezing and salt in the air is terrible for equipment 21:20:36 everywhere has it's positives and negatives hey ? 21:21:14 * Zarutian_HTC inquired a local arial company about some of their fasteners 21:21:47 they said they used maritime or satellite grade 21:22:15 it's 28,50 C here right now and raining, humidity is 100%. The mold is thriving 21:22:35 satellite grade as in those used in the spacecraft not on consumer dishes 21:23:39 i hope it's better than that used by space-x because I see their 'space' protective foil stripping off every deployment in space 21:24:05 nothing lasts, you cant count on it 21:24:28 here any plexiglass goes yellow in the sun after a few years 21:24:44 but in your area the sun is far less potent 21:24:56 I mean we get 1KW per sq metre here 21:24:56 you mean on the second stage? around the engine bell mount? 21:25:00 yeah 21:25:17 thats all we can see sadly 21:26:00 yeah, no. I mean the stuff used on the satellite spacecraft itself 21:26:26 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 21:26:43 not semi expendable like on reusable boosters 21:26:45 do they have any on the dragon ? 21:27:42 I know theyre using dark paint on the new esats, I wonder how long that will last ? 21:28:28 the foil? probably not. But they dont care about a bit of foil around the gimbal assembly of the engine bell 21:29:18 they should, how long until a bit of reflective foil deorbits ? 21:29:55 well the paint is to lower the albedo of them and i guess it will last as long as the sats themselfs 21:30:10 astronomy will probably be a dead hobby in a few years, but musk is like a ghod to me, anything he does is perfectly fine imho 21:31:02 yeah I know why the paint is there, I hope it lasts 21:31:37 the foil scraps I have seen torn of always have done so in thin atmosphere 21:32:10 for the sake of astronomers, personally I think a heap of tiny stars orbiting the earth would look cool, I could tell small kids that theyre the spirits of my big family ;-) 21:32:57 so I guess that the foil is already deorbiting and will flutter down and litter somewhere 21:33:44 oh cool, I'll keep a aye out for my piece ;-) 21:33:55 it's just Kapton anyway I think 21:35:57 most likely. And from an image from an assembly of a booster they use a bit of aviation fiber tape to hold down a few senso signal wires 21:36:30 well at a place where there is no handy fixture poiny 21:36:37 point* 21:38:53 true, it looks pretty tacky to me 21:39:10 but I guess being neat isnt important ? 21:39:26 "in space no one can see your tacky wiring" 21:39:42 and no one will ever have to fix it 21:40:37 it looks exactly what I expect from high iteration production and not some hyper polished glossy space age stuff 21:40:51 Zarutian_HTC, I'm impressed, I thought no one else but me would have noticed the typical tacky wiring 21:41:35 and I guess when one is planning to do 3 launches everyday from 1000 starships that mass production must rule ? 21:42:24 I expect there would be a nice wire or cable holder in the next iteration 21:42:49 look how neat 'starliner' is, but it's taken 10 yeas and 47 Billion$ and it's still not working 21:43:08 and looks like it may get axed now anyway 21:43:41 hahah, starliner wants one billion$ just to mofify the mobile launch platform! 21:43:49 modify 21:43:55 I find the look of spacex starhopper somewhat hillarious 21:44:05 and that cant be used in their next iteration 21:44:36 grain silo taking off basically 21:44:36 well it was test a text can 21:44:40 oops 21:44:46 just a tin can for a test 21:45:30 i think spacex could make a brick fly 21:45:47 havent you watched scott manleys analysis of why spacex is going with that ?303? steel? 21:46:22 infrared reflective because it is shiny 21:46:37 i have, I'm subbed to scott manley 21:47:09 yeah, it's crazy and looking more and more like the scifi spaceship pics of old 21:47:24 they were always shiny with fins 21:47:36 and using a bit of the methane fuel to sweat through the heatsheild pretty good idea 21:48:08 i think we need to check musk to see if he's actually from Earth 21:48:18 hes way too clever 21:48:58 naah, he is both clever and persistant 21:49:26 thats unbeatable 21:49:29 plus he has the cash to spend on it 21:49:55 I can personally attest to how productive being stupid and persistent is 21:50:11 yebb 21:52:12 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 21:53:23 but what got me to think of musk as not some yet another blowhard was his admitance of he, as the head designer, making a costly mistake 21:54:26 which is a very unusual admission 21:55:09 plus, he is the best net troll I know of because nobody can be sure that he is not being serious 21:55:14 here in australia a couple of days ago when the govt ordered all non essential business closed, they know about 30,000 people would immediately lose their jobs 21:55:54 they advised all unemployed to go to the govt website and apply for financial help 21:56:21 when the slow old govt website crashed .... the govt immediately claimed they had been DDOSed 21:56:58 everyone else in Australia knew it crashed from the load 21:57:08 but would the govt admit it ? 21:57:09 no 21:57:18 here many taxes and govermental fees that would have become due are being postponed without interest 21:57:34 it's chaos here, we will be like italy 21:59:00 and yesterday our govt said they are establishing a 'covid-19 war comittee' comprised of private business and govt people 21:59:41 I think it's a move to create a temporary group that people can blame after it all goes pear shaped 22:00:43 I bet anyone invited to be in that group will remember they have just begun self isolating for 3 months and couldnt possibly help 22:03:19 Zarutian_HTC, as ARM is 16 years old perhaps the new RISC-V stuff will be better at handling all this peripheral complexity ? 22:05:34 from various news sources, a few online aquatenses and a local australian expat I have gathered that the australian government and politicans are incompetent twats 22:06:06 hahah, thats putting it mildly 22:06:57 Id say 'self centered dumbass psycopaths only interested in making money' 22:07:16 more so than the local politican here but the again you can sometimes run into the president running his own personal errands 22:07:35 everyone has their own agendas I guess 22:08:50 I mean it was not uncommon to run into a parlimentarian in the hot tub at the local swimming hall 22:08:56 but our gov largely didn't have a clue about covid-19 and didn't care. now it's spiralling out of control they are looking for someone to take the blame so they can be safe in the background as usual 22:09:45 thats one thing youll never find here, politicians in hot tubs as we dont have any hot tubs 22:09:52 such tubs btw are usually where frank social economic discusdions often occur 22:09:54 we dont have cold tubs either 22:10:19 we dont have enough water for any kind of tub 22:10:38 Im hoping our heat kills covid-19 22:10:48 thats the only real resource we have 22:10:56 not even sea water at places like sydney? 22:11:14 yeah we have plenty of sea water 22:11:48 well sydney has, I'm 1000 km from Sydney and 50km from the ocean 22:12:35 and our beaches are now all closed 22:12:42 no gatherings of people allowed 22:13:44 i understand the no gathering part but not the beach closures. They arent big enough or? 22:13:45 lol, after the govt website was 'ddosed' the govt said 'dont come and visit us, dont even phone us' use the website only 22:14:18 as it's still very hot here thousands of people are going to beaches 22:14:41 to try and keep cool 22:14:55 right, more sensible then 22:15:15 and this is now illegal, too many people 22:15:53 in victoris if you dont have a space between you and the next person of 1.5 metres you can be fined $5000 22:15:58 Victoris 22:16:06 oek 22:16:10 Victoria 22:17:31 the 2m seperation distance rule here has started to show some sometimes giggly emergent behaviour 22:17:47 lol, how ? 22:18:06 are the polar bears obeying the 2m rule ? 22:18:33 I must go to the south pole and check the Penguins are keeping 2m apart! 22:20:32 well, right of way checking on asphalted paths in parks, grocery store lines that now have to snake around what was before huge stores 22:21:57 the store is still huge but the seperation makes it feel smaller at the moment 22:22:41 ah yes 22:28:34 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 22:28:41 re grocery stores: the ordering site for nettó for people to order groceries and get them delivered or pickup went down for a day due to demand 22:31:14 it is locally hosted here in a datacenter. I heard that one shared server had been enough but now four beefy machines are dedicated to nothing else 22:31:48 Nettó is an Icelandic grocery store chain that first opened in Akureyri in the year 1989 22:32:19 ahh a on-line grocery store ? 22:32:20 one trend I have started seeing is website trimming 22:32:39 you order from them and they deliver groceries ? 22:33:02 what is 'website trimming' ? 22:33:10 you cuts some 'bits' off ? 22:33:16 yeah, well the online part. It is just a grocery store. 22:33:46 optimization to lessen bandwidth usage 22:34:14 hmm, how is that done? blocking ip's ? 22:34:26 limiting processes ? 22:34:52 delivery or pickup from an elocker at your nearest store 22:36:29 naah, some bored working from home web admins doing js static analyses to see what can be cut out 22:36:30 I guess that covid-19 will cause a lot of changes to the way things are done 22:36:37 lol 22:39:26 sometimes it is not so bored web site designers with their bosses ordering them to 'cut the fat but keep the look&feel' because their webservers are struggling 22:39:44 ah yes 22:40:11 or more powerfull vm instances getting a bit too pricer 22:40:25 yeah, so many factors 22:40:50 but if the cpu load is 100% you know something will have to be done 22:41:39 not cpu load more like outgoing bandwidth being saturated 22:43:08 need bigger pipes ? 22:43:53 plus if your site takes too long to load then you might loose to your competeor 22:44:13 sure 22:44:40 speaking as a Internet customer I only have a attentian span of 9 seconds 22:44:49 attention 22:44:59 bigger pipes or more memory for tcp connection handling structs 22:49:00 0xabad1dea tweeted that the dutch grammar site she is using for learning dutch started noticeably to struggle because dutch parents were pushing their kids to use it for homeschooling 22:49:22 understandable 22:50:29 the Australia govt spoke of throttling netflix bandwidth a week ago, so I guess someone there has a brain 22:51:20 with everyone stuck at home Internet bandwidth use will increase a lot 22:51:28 still quite usable just it feels like the server for it relocated to lunar L4 point or something 22:51:35 yeah 22:52:11 I have slow Internet of around 35KB/sec and it's feeling a lot slower atm 22:55:07 here it hasnt been that noticeable (isps colocate caches due to relatively expensive foreign bandwidth) but I have never seen the charts at rix go so high before 22:55:43 rix = reykjavík interner xchange 22:56:12 a point of presence interconnect point 22:56:37 internet* 22:56:37 hence a lot more local Internet use 22:57:40 the isps all colocate caches here too I believe 22:59:50 I think because of relativly fewer people live here the caches are accidentially over provisioned 23:00:31 like a squid proxy you mean ? 23:01:22 that is, have more storage and such because any smaller woukd have been more expensive and need reupgrage sooner 23:01:23 if 10l users want the weather in california, the proxy gets it then serves it to the other 9,999 ? 23:01:36 10,000 23:02:04 would* reupgrade* 23:02:27 what speed of Internet do people there usually get ? 23:02:57 here is only 100mbit on fibre in the big cities if they pay for that especially 23:03:10 naah, more like CDN caches used by many websites, youtube, netflix and more 23:03:10 usually they just get 50mb/s on fibre 23:03:40 a yes, it's been a long time since I managed a squid proxy 23:04:23 I have 500 mbps fiber (had 100 mbps but it was upgraded for free so to speak) 23:05:10 wow 23:05:43 the thing is 720p to 1080p video looks pretty good to me 23:05:53 does the cold in Iceland supercool the electrons and make them faster ? 23:06:36 so I never have used that much of the bandwidth on daily bases 23:07:24 thats a lot of data 23:09:28 nope, just fiber to the apartment thing that came about because if the local utility for water (hot&cold) and eletricity put down fiber ducts whenever they dug somewhere to do thirty year mantenance 23:10:21 main reason i got it is the stability of it 23:10:48 no more crappy unstable adsl 23:10:54 --- quit: WickedShell (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 23:10:55 like I have 23:11:04 plus my copper is ancient 23:11:18 at times it buzzes so badly I cant use the phone 23:11:22 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 23:11:39 still, thats life in rural australia but IM not complaining 23:11:50 plenty of consolations 23:11:51 how far away from the dslam you rekon ya are? 23:12:01 about 5km 23:12:44 I'm waiting to subscribe to Musks new satellite Internet ;-) 23:13:12 I should offer to be a early tester! 23:13:47 some rural places here have gone with longrange directional microwave, radio or laserlink 23:14:50 sometimes all three in the same setup 23:14:54 yeah 23:15:14 i want a starlink pizzabox antenna and self install!! 23:16:30 in one case I heard one farmer went with self installed fiber 23:17:55 turns out the fiber is relatively cheap, it is the digging for it which makes it expensive 23:18:59 thats probably quite true 23:19:46 the farmer in question just rented a slot cutter digger and put down the fiber duct himself 23:22:00 it just happened for luck that three km away there was an telecomms tower with fiber backhaul 23:22:03 we have mainly aerial power wires in Australia and they have had a centre fiber bundle in the earth wire for ages, but they dont seem to use it 23:23:33 I have a friend who has only adsl, and the nearest exchange with fibre is about 100 metres away on the other side of his carpark and they wont let him connect to it 23:23:45 thats how it is here 23:23:52 mobile phone mainly but also local transmitter for fm, telly. Not to mention aprs, weather station and who knows what on it 23:24:02 govt bureaucracy 23:25:06 he could have installed a 1500 mb/s radio link for $3k 23:25:19 slower but probably cheaper 23:25:35 and who need or can afford a whole fibre optic link ? 23:25:41 wait what? here telecomms are much more flexible 23:25:52 not here 23:27:58 for instance it happened to be for this aforementioned farmer that there was an annoying radio shadow for the mobile phones due to a hill 23:28:53 very common 23:29:24 he got a linkup because he agreed to host a femtocell that fixed that problem 23:29:31 aha 23:32:10 the shadow was not that much but enaugh to cause dropped calls and handsets radio screaming 23:33:30 Ive had my own business here for the last 15 years doing wifi, Ive done a lot of solar powered repeaters for similar (non cellphone) cases 23:33:43 which meant that there was a bit more housekeeping radio traffic due it 23:34:09 it's very common, I always said that "wifi promotes hill and building growth" 23:35:37 for wifi it isnt that bad but for centrally controled systems like mobile it adds up on those central parts 23:38:08 mobile phone networks are basically mostly radio transcivers with backhaul links to central 23:38:45 yes 23:40:26 around 2003 they finally implemented base station to base station links to cut down on bandwidth to central 23:41:06 like a mesh ? 23:42:15 very handy for those popular festivals and holiday gatherings where people mostly used mobile phones to find each other in the crowd 23:42:44 true 23:42:55 all networks and technologies evolve 23:43:12 but thats all over now with covid-19 ;-) 23:44:19 sometimes it is just getting rid of bad design and implent something that often is obvious 23:44:44 well for this year 23:45:11 i can relate, Im doing that to my Forth tools all the time 23:46:01 for instance in gsm there is the paging channel 23:49:01 ok 23:49:24 that channel is used to page the handset and tell it to report in because of incomming call or sms 23:49:24 and it is network wide 23:49:35 orange in germany learned the hard way that this can become a contention point 23:49:51 makes sense 23:50:27 the paging channel is a polled multidrop system ? 23:50:42 now they partion up their users, based on sim setup, on to four paging channels 23:52:02 which leaves less bw for audio which they recover using more advanced codecs ? 23:52:08 well, the only things that transmit on the paging channel are the base stations 23:54:12 when a call comes in there is a packet sent on the paging channel to the handset 23:55:09 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 23:55:35 the handset then reports to the closest cell base station and gets bandwidth and timeslots on diffrent channel 23:56:32 that channel handles the audio bandwidth or sms message itself 23:56:57 but now I am off to bed 23:57:01 night 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.03.25