00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.01.25
00:13:14 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection)
00:38:32 --- join: dave0 joined #forth
00:57:04 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
01:13:18 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth
02:20:56 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
02:42:27 --- join: jedb_ joined #forth
02:45:56 --- join: jedb__ joined #forth
02:46:02 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
02:48:26 --- quit: jedb_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
02:56:59 --- join: patrickg joined #forth
03:08:14 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
03:08:21 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth
03:09:25 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale
03:12:20 --- join: xek joined #forth
03:28:06 --- quit: jedb__ (Remote host closed the connection)
03:32:29 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
04:05:57 --- join: jedb__ joined #forth
04:49:37 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
04:51:05 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth
04:52:08 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale
05:15:25 --- join: dddddd joined #forth
05:20:27 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
05:47:55 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in)
05:50:56 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth
07:27:57 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth
08:02:51 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
08:13:32 --- quit: cp- (Quit: Disappeared in a puff of smoke)
08:14:51 --- join: cp- joined #forth
08:49:44 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
10:13:07 --- join: dys joined #forth
11:27:09 <MrMobius> is there an accepted way to replace constants in a Forth file like #define in C? Im thinking about running the file through the C preprocessor if there is no other way
11:36:10 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here)
11:42:01 --- quit: reepca (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
11:45:03 --- join: ryke joined #forth
12:10:46 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
12:12:59 <MrMobius> maybe an alternative would be a word that fetches the value of a constant and inserts it as a literal so the constant can be unloaded later. is that possible?
12:21:27 <tabemann> : constant create immediate , does> @ state @ if literal then ;
12:22:01 <tabemann> that will do what you want, I think, unless you execute EXECUTE against its xt while in compilation state
12:22:44 <tabemann> which is a general problem with "smart" words
12:22:46 <tabemann> wait
12:23:14 <tabemann> : constant create immediate , does> @ state @ if postpone literal then ;
12:24:57 <MrMobius> why is the immediate needed?
12:25:10 <tabemann> yeah, just checked, it does work
12:25:26 <tabemann> MrMobius: so it will insert the literal in compilation state properly
12:27:22 <tabemann> without immediate it cannot actually insert the constant into the code being compiled
12:28:00 <tabemann> note that this does not make CONSTANT immediate
12:28:10 <tabemann> but it rather makes the word instantiated by it immediate
12:35:00 <MrMobius> awesome. thanks a lot
13:02:31 <MrMobius> hmm, why doesnt this work? : c1 postpone literal ; 4 5 : c2 c1 . ; c2
13:02:37 <MrMobius> it prints 4 instead of 5
13:05:38 --- join: jsoft joined #forth
13:06:29 <crc> the forth may add arbitrary items on the stack between the : and ;
13:45:50 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
13:54:31 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
14:07:46 --- join: TwoNotes joined #forth
14:09:09 <MrMobius> works if i change c1 to immediate
14:09:12 <MrMobius> i think i get it
14:11:07 --- join: reepca joined #forth
14:43:15 --- join: deesix_ joined #forth
14:43:27 --- join: dddddd_ joined #forth
14:45:52 --- quit: deesix (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
14:46:45 --- quit: dddddd (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
14:54:10 --- nick: dddddd_ -> dddddd
14:54:20 --- nick: deesix_ -> deesix
17:21:52 --- nick: jedb__ -> jedb
17:35:46 <tpbsd> MrMobius, I don't understand are you trying to change constants before calling the Word that uses them ?
18:00:11 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth
18:11:45 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth
18:18:29 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in)
18:18:55 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth
18:35:53 --- join: dave0 joined #forth
18:54:49 <tabemann> I am confused
19:18:43 --- part: TwoNotes left #forth
19:46:21 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
19:55:42 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth
19:55:58 <rdrop-exit> Premature abstraction is the root of all bloat.
19:56:02 <rdrop-exit> ;-)
19:59:13 --- quit: reepca (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
20:03:36 <tpbsd> rdrop-exit, you Zen Forth Guru!
20:04:13 <rdrop-exit> hello tpbsd :)
20:04:49 <rdrop-exit> I have come to a stunning realization which in hindsight should have been obvious to me.
20:05:22 <tpbsd> you have those as well ?? ;-)
20:05:55 <rdrop-exit> Many of today's programmers conflate lack of abstraction with optimization.
20:06:59 <rdrop-exit> In their mind if you're not adding layers of abstraction, then to them, you are by definition optimizing.
20:08:17 <rdrop-exit> If you just code the obvious solution to the problem in front of you, they scoff and accuse you of premature optimization.
20:10:19 <rdrop-exit> While from my point of view they are adding bloat by doing premature abstraction.
20:10:51 <tpbsd> youre referring to C I imagine ?
20:11:23 <rdrop-exit> Actually it was Forth discussion that brought me to the realization.
20:11:42 <rdrop-exit> * was a Forth ...
20:13:09 <tpbsd> wow
20:17:59 <rdrop-exit> For them the way to solve the problem in front of you is to begin with abstraction.
20:20:50 <rdrop-exit> As Chuck would say they are always focused on solving a more general problem then the one in front of them.
20:20:56 <tpbsd> yeah
20:21:36 <tpbsd> sadly all those that once knew Forth are gone and none now live that remember it ...
20:22:58 <rdrop-exit> the wheel will make a full circle eventually
20:25:20 <rdrop-exit> "I still believe in abstraction, but now I know that one ends with
20:25:20 <rdrop-exit> abstraction, not starts with it. I learned that one has to adapt
20:25:22 <rdrop-exit> abstractions to reality and not the other way around."
20:25:30 <rdrop-exit> -- Alexander Stepanov
20:31:12 <rdrop-exit> lunch is ready, catch you later Master Forth Technician (tm)! :)
20:31:20 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal)
20:31:36 <tpbsd> cya!
20:42:17 <MrMobius> crc, im trying to write Forth on a 6502 system with 16k banks. constant takes up 13 bytes plus the length of the constant name. i pasted in 250 constants which came to 7k and overflowed the bank
20:43:31 <MrMobius> so i can keep them in a separate bank and bank switch every time i need a constant which is slow or do what tabemann helped me with
20:44:39 <MrMobius> which just leaves the literal behind in the main bank so i can ignore the constants in the ither bank after everything is defined and dont have to bank switch
20:44:42 --- quit: iyzsong (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:44:59 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth
21:11:14 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth
22:38:07 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection)
22:54:38 --- join: reepca joined #forth
23:42:48 --- quit: MrMobius (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.01.25