00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.01.19
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01:07:41 <crab1> yo yo yo who up
01:10:26 <crab1> I just come by to say it makes me happy when I see something like "All tracks performed, written, produced, instruments played, mixed and mastered by JPEGMAFIA" on a vinyl jacket
01:15:49 <crab1> I'm bothered by the tarnish that gets put on almost every piece of music we listen to by separate entities that mix/master, etc.
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05:05:53 <glenda> what name am I showing up under?
05:06:04 <jn__> glenda.
05:06:46 <glenda> am crab1, client took my system username and change nickname command won't work
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05:15:44 <glenda> What are y'all up to today?
05:28:13 <glenda> if I want to write binary to a file with c,
05:28:19 <glenda> how do I do that?
05:42:09 <jn__> prepare your data in a buffer, use fopen/fwrite/fclose
05:49:32 <glenda> Hmm I can't seem to find a way do deal with collections of bits that are smaller than a byte
05:51:29 <jn__> you can pack them into bits using bit operations (shift, and, or)
05:51:36 <jn__> into bytes, i mean
05:55:50 <glenda> Maybe I'm better off treating them as characters then creating a function binary->integer(), I'm dealing with the RISC-V instruction set and an instruction might look like [7bitchunk,5bitregister,5bitregister,3bitchunk,5bitregister,7bitopcode] so if I had [...,"00010","00011",...] and then put the strings together and turn that into an int, but I don't really know if that's more or less complicated
05:55:59 <glenda> C is not my expertise
05:57:28 <jn__> sounds more complicated to me
05:58:15 <jn__> i would treat each instruction as an unsigned 32-bit number until it's about to be written to the file, and then split it into four bytes
05:59:22 <jn__> u32 instruction  = chunk1 << 18 | chunk2 << 15 | chunk3 << 11 | chunk4 << 3;
06:00:04 <jn__> byte[0] = instruction & 0xff; byte[1] = (instruction >> 8) & 0xff; byte[2] = ...
06:00:31 <jn__> (the shift amounts in the first line are made up, because i don't know them without looking at the manual)
06:02:58 <glenda> so int inst = x << 7 | r1 << 5 | r2 << 5 | y << 3 | rd << 5 | op << 7; will turn that 32 bits into a single 32 bit integer?
06:03:24 <jn__> yes, but wrongly
06:03:52 <jn__> you need to shift the individual parts by the right amount to place them at the right spot in the 32-bit word
06:04:07 <glenda> and it's int x, r1, r2, y, rd, op;
06:04:08 <jn__> you've shifted them by their own size instead, AFAICT
06:04:26 <jn__> i'd use uint32_t instead of int, but int is ok too
06:04:56 <glenda> ohh you shift by 32 - last-bit
06:05:10 <jn__> wait, who, when?
06:05:13 <glenda> or
06:05:33 <glenda> hmm
06:05:52 <jn__> "ohh you shift by 32 - last-bit" <- you lost me there. too little context.
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06:08:04 <jn__> "< jn__> you need to shift the individual parts by the right amount to place them at the right spot in the 32-bit word"  <-- the result should look roughly like  inst = ... y << 12 | rd << 7 | op << 0;
06:08:30 <glenda> so say the length of the first chunk is 7 bits, then we do x << (32 - 7) | r2 << (25 - 5) | r1 << (20 - 5) ...
06:08:36 <glenda> is that correct?
06:08:54 <jn__> ah, yes
06:09:17 <glenda> ok ok, much simpler than the character route, thank you :)
06:09:29 <jn__> ("first" is always a bit difficult for me, because you can start from either end and it makes *some* sense)
06:09:48 <glenda> I understand, my language was imprecise
06:11:04 <jn__> happens :)
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07:20:43 <glenda> what are y'all up to?
07:27:07 <jn__> cooking and watching the SpaceX stream :)
07:27:31 <glenda> Oooh cooking is fun
07:27:45 <glenda> I would not know anything about SpaceX though
09:21:11 <proteusguy> SpaceX completed a successful emergency separation of the "crewed" Dragon from the Falcon-9 during Max-Q which was a critical check point for rating them as man-ready to send astronauts to ISS.
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09:36:25 <glenda> interesting
09:36:58 <glenda> I wish I could send astronauts to the ISS
09:37:21 <glenda> and then construct my own SS and conquer the skies
09:37:39 <glenda> Would it be legal to construct and launch your own SS?
09:39:03 <glenda> I feel like I'm bad at writing C. There's a lot of repitition in this program I'm writing.
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10:18:56 <tabemann> back
11:01:12 <`presiden> construct your own SS
11:01:58 <`presiden> and write all the software in forth
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12:01:20 <tabemann> hey
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16:40:23 <tabemann> wow - tp isn't here
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17:47:56 <tabemann> hey
17:48:11 <rdrop-exit> hello tabemann
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17:50:51 * tabemann is trying to get zeptoforth up to the point where it can compile code (so that further code can be specified in forth rather than assembly), but it's requiring writing a lot of assembly
17:53:13 <tabemann> and Thumb is not endearing itself to me
17:53:22 <rdrop-exit> You could use another Forth as a bootstrap bridge
17:55:35 <tabemann> right now I'm focusing on writing a minimal Forth that can support compiling a fuller Forth
17:57:24 <rdrop-exit> I think a bootstrap bridge is easier
17:58:15 <rdrop-exit> than writing your initial minimimal image entirely in assembly
18:00:20 <tabemann> the thing is the only real Forth that's usable for Cortex-M is mecrisp-stellaris, and if I were to use that, I might as well just use it without any other Forth (since it takes up about 20K already)
18:04:00 <rdrop-exit> What does mecrisp-stellaris have to do with zeptoforth, you could use any PC Forth
18:04:25 <rdrop-exit> The assumption is a bare target
18:05:06 <tabemann> oh, you mean use JTAG or like to write a forth onto a device from another forth
18:05:23 <rdrop-exit> no
18:06:15 <MrMobius> can you use C for some of that?
18:06:28 <MrMobius> (dont throw rocks at me)
18:06:37 <rdrop-exit> You don't need C
18:06:44 <tabemann> I've thought about that, but then figured that A) it would require writing an assembler and B) it would require either writing a JTAG or STLink interface or, if it were to use a serial interface, it would require writing a stub to install on the device first
18:07:03 <rdrop-exit> you don't need JTAG
18:08:39 <tabemann> of course, that's just one way of doing it
18:09:28 <rdrop-exit> The assumption is a bare target
18:13:50 <tabemann> stupid question - when STATE is non-zero does it mean that the system is in compilation mode, or does it mean the system is in interpretation mode?
18:14:50 <rdrop-exit> non-zero is compilation
18:15:24 <rdrop-exit> IIRC, I don't have a STATE variable in my Forths
18:15:56 <rdrop-exit> that's the way the 83 standard had it
18:16:06 <rdrop-exit> I assume ANS didn't change it
18:16:20 <tabemann> I think you're right
18:16:45 <tabemann> because I remember in the past writing "smart" words that were immediate and had special semantics when STATE was non-zero
18:20:17 <rdrop-exit> For you're bootstrap bridge you can take use PC based Forth, write a minimal target assembler, write the primitives using that, write whatever minimal set of higher level words you want in the embryonic target Forth's image, use that to produce the initial image.
18:21:46 <rdrop-exit> Place the initial image on the target, then go from there.
18:23:04 <tabemann> back
18:23:12 <rdrop-exit> When you're Forth is capable of metacompiling itself, you can throw away the bootstrap bridge, it's just a temporary expedient.
18:23:40 <tabemann> another stupid question:  is : immediate typically?
18:23:49 <rdrop-exit> no
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18:25:42 <dddddd> bootstrapping artifacts are important historical and practical pieces to save! (:
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18:29:04 <rdrop-exit> Can be yes, although most of the code ends up in some transplanted form as part of the metacompiling forth.
18:30:42 <rdrop-exit> C was originally written in B, then various proto early Cs, but nobody cares about those boostrap bridges anymore, other than historical curiosity.
18:32:10 <rdrop-exit> Now the next version of a C compiler is produced by the previous version, the same applies to a proper metacompiling Forth.
18:34:29 <dddddd> But without those intermediate pieces the chain is broken and rework is needed to redo/audit the bootstrap. I'm seeing that kind of painful efforts these days (I'm helping a bit, indeed).
18:36:08 <dddddd> BTW, how is the volcano situation evolving?
18:36:24 <rdrop-exit> Trying to audit the whole provenance has diminishing returns, in the end what counts is what's in the current binary image, only a disassembler will give you that.
18:37:38 <rdrop-exit> It's still spewing, 714 volcanic earthquakes since January 12, still on Alert Level 4
18:38:04 <rdrop-exit> Meaning it my explode within hours or days if it doesn't slow down
18:38:18 <rdrop-exit> * might explode
18:38:21 <dddddd> scary!
18:39:04 <rdrop-exit> Lots of roads and bridges have cracked in the neighboring towns
18:39:41 <rdrop-exit> I've only been outside for an hour since the 12th
18:40:38 <rdrop-exit> I think the last time it was spewing it lasted 7 months
18:40:39 <dddddd> oh yes... I think you talked about the dangerous particles. Nasty stuff.
18:41:29 <tabemann> back
18:41:34 <rdrop-exit> The Taal volcano is actually a volcano *inside* an older volcano
18:41:55 <rdrop-exit> The lake surrounding it is the caldera of the older volcano
18:42:08 <rdrop-exit> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taal_Volcano
18:43:05 <dddddd> I saw that while researching a bit after the first news from you.
18:43:53 <rdrop-exit> My wife's family is from that region
18:44:20 <rdrop-exit> actually that province
18:45:00 <rdrop-exit> Her family's ancestral house is in one of the towns affected
18:45:02 <dddddd> hard times, I hope everything ends well! <3
18:46:53 <rdrop-exit> Me too, Filipinos are extremely resilient, typhoons, earthquakes, volcano eruptions, and in a few days it's almost as if it never happened
18:47:34 <rdrop-exit> I forgot tsunamis
18:49:43 <rdrop-exit> Just compare the magnitude of Typhoon Yolanda to that of Hurrican Katrina in the US
18:50:31 <dddddd> Nature rules, sculpted the character no doubt. Much respect for you all.
18:51:42 <rdrop-exit> For comparison, here's Yolanda (Haiyan) on the left and Katrina on the right:
18:51:47 <rdrop-exit> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_Haiyan#/media/File:Comparison_between_Haiyan_and_Katrina.png
18:52:47 <dddddd> If you are curious about what I talked about earlier, check the bootstrappable project. There was a forth path but was discarded for now because it seems it was not the easiest one (but prototypes are there, waiting for someone to follow on)
18:53:05 <rdrop-exit> they superimposed Yolanda onto a map of the States to show what the effect would have been
18:54:14 <rdrop-exit> will check it out dddddd, thanks
18:54:53 <dddddd> My pleasure, feel free to ask me about it... anything.
18:55:36 <rdrop-exit> ok will do, is it bootstappable.org ?
18:56:28 <dddddd> yep, there's a wiki too
18:57:04 <rdrop-exit> ok, added it to my mountainous "to read" pile
18:57:10 <dddddd> bootstrapping.miraheze.org
18:57:43 <dddddd> oh, that pile... we all have one (:
18:58:19 <rdrop-exit> Looks like an interesting read
18:59:09 <dddddd> amazing work oriansj, janneke and others are doing
19:00:31 <rdrop-exit> Sadly Forth metacompilation is quickly becoming a lost art
19:02:13 <rdrop-exit> The vendors aren't really interested in helping you make new versions/variants of their products, and most open source projects aren't geared towards it
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19:03:18 <rdrop-exit> Ignoring metacompilation is how you end up with kitchen-sink Forths
19:03:21 <dddddd> I'll research that, sounds quite interesting topic
19:03:54 <rdrop-exit> It's the *other* type of extensibility of Forth
19:05:50 <rdrop-exit> You end up with much more runtime overhead if you omit metacompilation from your toolkit
19:07:23 <dddddd> AM i reading correctly that picture? -80 celsius?!
19:09:23 <rdrop-exit> I assume so, I'm not knowledgeable in meteorology
19:09:37 <dddddd> sounds crazy
19:10:33 <rdrop-exit> It was the strogest storm to make landfall in "recorded" history
19:11:53 <rdrop-exit> 305 km/h (190 mph)
19:13:01 <rdrop-exit> A Dutch friend of mine who works at OXFAM was here directing the relief efforts
19:13:15 <rdrop-exit> crazy job
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19:14:23 <rdrop-exit> they're still finding bodies, almost four years later
19:19:59 <dddddd> time to go offline, nice conversation. See you!
19:20:13 <rdrop-exit> take care, keep on Forthin'
19:20:32 <dddddd> thanks, you too!
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19:39:37 <rdrop-exit> Found something on youtube explaining Typhoon Yolanda (aka Haiyan)
19:39:40 <rdrop-exit> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DxYbnWmM-0
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20:25:47 <crab1> Good day to you all
20:29:23 <rdrop-exit> hi crab1
20:29:46 <crab1> How are ya?
20:30:23 <rdrop-exit> ok thanks
20:30:45 <crab1> anything interesting going on?
20:31:06 <rdrop-exit> relaxing with after lunch espresso c[]
20:31:24 <rdrop-exit> too full to concentrate
20:31:36 <crab1> espresso never did it for me
20:32:30 <crab1> neither did overeating :)
20:32:43 <rdrop-exit> :)
20:33:12 <crab1> is it a work day for you?
20:33:38 <rdrop-exit> I'm retired, all days are the same except when the kids come over or I go to the beach
20:33:54 <crab1> oh gotcha
20:34:26 <rdrop-exit> It's Monday 12:33pm here
20:34:26 <crab1> wish I was retired
20:35:01 <rdrop-exit> it'll come faster than you imagine :)
20:35:08 <crab1> Sunday 23:33 for me
20:35:20 <crab1> Well hopefully faster for me than for my peers
20:35:38 <crab1> at least the sort of retired that means I spend my time as I please
20:35:55 <rdrop-exit> that's the only sort that counts :)
20:36:29 <crab1> right, can still have income though
20:38:17 <crab1> Like my grandfather is retired but he drives cars around for Enterprise on a "when I want to" basis
20:39:45 <rdrop-exit> It's important to keep busy, lots of hobbies
20:40:17 <crab1> that's true both pre- and post-retire
20:41:18 <rdrop-exit> keep the mind sharp and Alzheimer's at bay
20:41:45 <crab1> damn that alzheimers
20:42:24 <crab1> I heard keeping an aquarium can help prevent the progression of alzheimers
20:43:28 <crab1> I wanted a Koi aquarium but the tank size suggested for koi is like 75 gallons, and those tanks are not cheap
20:43:31 <rdrop-exit> interesting
20:43:43 <crab1> plus I wouldn't trust myself to make one on my own
20:47:29 <rdrop-exit> bbiab
20:55:29 <crab1> bbiab?
20:57:26 <tabemann> be back in a bit
20:57:32 <crab1> ah
20:57:34 <crab1> ok
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21:10:32 <rdrop-exit> back :)
21:12:05 <rdrop-exit> It drives me nuts when a hardware vendor assumes providing a c library or a device driver is an acceptable substitute for documenting an interface!
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21:20:13 <crab1> I agree with your sentiment
21:20:52 <crab1> It makes it a bitch to write your own drivers, especially when they offer a driver, no documentation, and the driver is not even fully implemented
21:20:53 <rdrop-exit> :)
21:21:33 <rdrop-exit> right, I want to talk to your gizmo not your crappy software
21:22:03 <rdrop-exit> or at least have the fallback available to me
21:22:22 <tabemann>  okay, I'm gonna hit the sack
21:22:27 <tabemann> g'night guys
21:22:42 <rdrop-exit> hit the stack? ;-)
21:22:50 <rdrop-exit> goodnight tabemann
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