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03:03:19 <rdrop-exit> c[] Hello Forthwrights!
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03:17:12 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Hello!
03:17:29 <rdrop-exit> Hi WilhelmVonW!
03:19:12 <WilhelmVonWeiner> what's up?
03:19:23 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Forthing on a monday?
03:19:43 <rdrop-exit> Staying home, don't want to breath volcano ashes.
03:20:36 <rdrop-exit> Just relaxing with a cup of coffee
03:22:19 <rdrop-exit> Haven't done any Forthing in a few days
03:22:35 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Sounds pretty relaxing, a cuppa and volcano ash
03:22:51 <WilhelmVonWeiner> where's this volcano?
03:23:06 <rdrop-exit> just a sec
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03:24:07 <rdrop-exit> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJvQduF7ycQ
03:24:49 <rdrop-exit> Check this out:
03:24:49 <rdrop-exit> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nVPWCv5dVw
03:25:18 <rdrop-exit> The eruption is making lightning
03:26:46 <rdrop-exit> It's about 50km from me
03:26:58 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I don't read the news anymore so the only way I hear about these things is being told, or chance.
03:27:42 <WilhelmVonWeiner> holy crap!
03:27:46 <WilhelmVonWeiner> the lightning!
03:27:48 <rdrop-exit> It's not recommended to go out because of the ash
03:29:10 <rdrop-exit> Volcanic ash is like powdered glass
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03:29:39 <WilhelmVonWeiner> someone at work just mentioned up to 60cm  of ash in some places?
03:30:48 <rdrop-exit> yes, at least it's in the middle of a lake, unlike Mount Pinatubo in 1991
03:33:39 <rdrop-exit> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taal_Volcano
03:36:58 <rdrop-exit> They've evacuated a 14km radius
03:38:52 <rdrop-exit> They're also afraid of volcanic tsunami in the lake
03:42:52 <rdrop-exit> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKiWAE_eEhc
03:48:07 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I would just.. move to Cornwall
03:48:17 <rdrop-exit> :))
03:51:37 <rdrop-exit> My latest Forth related activity has been to write a RISC-V assembler and debug module controller in Forth
03:51:47 <rdrop-exit> Not done with it yet
03:54:59 <rdrop-exit> I'm new to RISC-V, lots to grok
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04:24:12 <dddddd> rdrop-exit, I plan to look into RISC-V for a (non-forth) kind of macro assembler. I think its intructions are a bit crazy, arent't they? I mean, not quite trivial structure in the chucks of its bits. Did you find that to be true? Is your WIP available online?
04:26:56 <rdrop-exit> Some of the literal fields are a bit scrambled
04:27:32 <dddddd> yeah, that might ring a bell indeed
04:27:50 <rdrop-exit> but I'm only doing RV32IMC so that reduces the work I need to do
04:28:19 <rdrop-exit> I don't post WIP online
04:28:33 <dddddd> fair enough, thanks
04:28:54 <rdrop-exit> sure
04:29:19 <rdrop-exit> dinner time, keep on Forthin' :)
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04:35:35 <dddddd> *aren't *chunks; and broken english, sorry for that ;)
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18:51:37 <rdrop-exit> c[] good morning Forthwrights
19:38:57 <rdrop-exit> dddddd, are you still here?
19:39:19 <crc> Hi rdrop-exit
19:39:30 <rdrop-exit> Hi crc :)
19:39:40 <crc> How are things with the volcano?
19:40:24 <rdrop-exit> it's still at alert level 4
19:40:47 <rdrop-exit> Alert Level 4 still remains in effect over Taal Volcano. This means that hazardous explosive eruption is possible within hours to days. DOST-PHIVOLCS strongly reiterates total evacuation of Taal Volcano Island and areas at high risk to pyroclastic density currents and volcanic tsunami within a 14-kilometer radius from Taal Main Crater. 
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19:45:02 <rdrop-exit> hh
19:45:22 <rdrop-exit> something's wrong with my irrc
19:48:02 <rdrop-exit> as of this morning it's still spewing 500m tall lava fountains topped by 2km tall ash plumes
19:49:35 <rdrop-exit> Here in Metro Manila, about 50km away, you have to wear a mask outside
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19:56:12 <rdrop-exit>  : bltu, ( rs1 rs2 sx[12:0] -- ) $ 00006063 b-type, ;
19:58:47 <rdrop-exit> dddddd that's an example of an RISC-V instruction that "scramble" the immediate bits
19:59:31 <rdrop-exit> it's branch-if-less-then-unsigned, it takes a 13-bit sign extended immediate
20:00:07 <rdrop-exit> and is what they're calling a B-TYPE instruction
20:00:34 <rdrop-exit> This is my code for handling B-TYPE instructions:
20:00:52 <rdrop-exit>  : b-type, ( rs1 rs2 sx[12:0] 32b -- )
20:00:52 <rdrop-exit>    +b.sx[12:0] +r.rs2 +r.rs1 32code, ;
20:02:12 <rdrop-exit> this is the code that handles the "scrambling" of the 13-bit sign extended immediate value:
20:02:25 <rdrop-exit>  : +b.sx[12:0] ( sx[12:0] 32b -- 32b' )
20:02:26 <rdrop-exit>    swap 13 2's-imm  tuck 1 lowimm0s
20:02:26 <rdrop-exit>    over    12 bit      31 bit  scramble
20:02:26 <rdrop-exit>    over    11 bit       7 bit  scramble
20:02:26 <rdrop-exit>    over 10  5 bits  30 25 bits scramble
20:02:28 <rdrop-exit>    swap  4  1 bits  11  8 bits scramble ;
20:04:37 <rdrop-exit> e.g. bits 10 through 5 of the argument are placed in bits 30 through 25 of the instruction
20:05:06 <rdrop-exit> etc...
20:05:51 <rdrop-exit> hope that helps, keep in mind this is just a draft work-in-progress
20:09:10 <rdrop-exit> right now I'm focused on the debug controller's code, rather than the assembler
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20:18:33 <dddddd> Yes, thanks for the example. Good luck with that Volcano!
20:18:43 * dddddd off but will read logs
20:18:46 <rdrop-exit> Thanks! :)
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21:14:18 <rdrop-exit> dddddd, I made the code a little more consistent by changing one of the factors:
21:14:23 <tpbsd> rdrop-exit, so hows life in the shadow of Pompeii ?
21:14:31 <rdrop-exit>  : +b.sx[12:0] ( sx[12:0] 32b -- 32b' )
21:14:31 <rdrop-exit>    over 13 2's-imm  over 1 lowimm0s
21:14:31 <rdrop-exit>    over    12 bit      31 bit  scramble
21:14:31 <rdrop-exit>    over    11 bit       7 bit  scramble
21:14:31 <rdrop-exit>    over 10  5 bits  30 25 bits scramble
21:14:33 <rdrop-exit>    swap  4  1 bits  11  8 bits scramble ;
21:14:59 <rdrop-exit> Hi Forth Master Technician (tm)!
21:15:27 <rdrop-exit> I'm stuck at home with dogs, keeping the ashes away from my lungs.
21:17:09 <rdrop-exit> What are you up to tpbsd?
21:20:27 <tpbsd> the usual, technishing and writing Forth code, some of it is probably even presentable these days!
21:20:50 <rdrop-exit> Excellent!
21:21:14 <tpbsd> i guess silicosis is what you have to watch out for with lungs and volcanic smoke ?
21:22:04 <rdrop-exit> The ash is like very fine glass/obsidian powder, you want to keep it off your skin and out of your lungs
21:22:22 <tpbsd> I've been breathing bushfire smoke for about a month - 6 weeks which is bad enough but silicosis is much worse 
21:22:41 <tpbsd> thats right, it tears into your lungs I guess
21:23:06 <rdrop-exit> right, my lungs are bad enough as it is
21:23:17 <tpbsd> will you be getting aqny new mountains or land out of it ?
21:23:28 <tpbsd> smoker/ex smoker ?
21:23:42 <rdrop-exit> don't know
21:23:45 <rdrop-exit> smoker
21:24:26 <tpbsd> ah well we all have our vices, mine is blue and offset
21:24:49 <rdrop-exit> mines coffee and cigarettes
21:24:50 <tpbsd> and on a pedestal
21:25:23 <tpbsd> ( a blue offset pedestal vice)
21:25:29 <rdrop-exit> hmmm
21:25:46 <rdrop-exit> not sure what you mean
21:26:52 <tpbsd> https://www.irwin.com.au/tools/vices/offset-engineers-steel-vice  <-- like that but on a stand
21:27:31 <rdrop-exit> I haven't coded in a few days, now starting on the code for a debug controller
21:27:36 <rdrop-exit> Ah, I see
21:28:34 <tpbsd> I have, this is my latest code: https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/memstat.html#memstat
21:28:41 <rdrop-exit> So many debug registers to grok
21:29:06 <tpbsd> as a hardware guy I have always loved registers
21:29:11 <rdrop-exit> cool!
21:29:51 <tpbsd> to me registers are like toolchests with many draws and each draw contains cool tools
21:29:54 <rdrop-exit> I do too, but when there are tons of them, with of different bitfields to grok, it gets tiring
21:30:21 <rdrop-exit> * tons of different bitfields...
21:31:47 <tpbsd> my little stm32f051 has 32 peripherals, 400 registers and 3000 bitfields, I never tire of learning what they do
21:32:20 <tpbsd> funny how people with different interests vire things differently
21:32:24 <tpbsd> view
21:33:39 <tpbsd> are you referring to the CPU specific bitfields or the peripheral bitfields ? not peripherals I guess as the RISC-V core doesnt have peripherals ?
21:34:11 <tpbsd> same as the ARM cortex-m core doesnt have peripherals ?
21:34:28 <rdrop-exit> These are the debug hardware's registers
21:34:42 <rdrop-exit> accessible via JTAG
21:35:32 <tpbsd> RISC-V core stuff ?
21:35:57 <rdrop-exit> For resetting, halting, inspecting, measuring, controlling RISC-V cores
21:36:19 <tpbsd> yeah RISC-V core
21:36:59 <tpbsd> that would bore me to as Im only interested in the peripherals being a tech
21:37:41 <tpbsd> and in the case of the GD32VF103 most of them are the same as the STM32F10xx pewripherals
21:38:05 <tpbsd> exceptions being the interrupt system
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21:41:10 <rdrop-exit> Sure but you're also programming utilities such as your memstat
21:41:39 <tpbsd> yeah because theyre development aids
21:41:54 <tpbsd> I've always been a toolbuilder
21:42:40 <tpbsd> I have made pliers, hammers, specialist tools etc, so the software I make is really just a variation of a tool
21:42:55 <rdrop-exit> Right, same here, the debug interface is what the tether will use to control and program the target
21:43:29 <rdrop-exit> and also to get all the profiling and debugging
21:44:17 <rdrop-exit> info
21:44:26 <tpbsd> your system sounds pretty good, I volunteer to be a beta tester when you release it :)
21:45:12 <tpbsd> i havent been back to mecrisp-across in a while but I'm looking forward to working on the new release soon
21:45:26 <rdrop-exit> I don't think anyone else would enjoy using it, the user interface is 100% taylored to me
21:45:54 <tpbsd> Matthias added 'pictured numerical output' to it at my request, so I can make up my register viewer
21:46:17 <rdrop-exit> It's not really targeted for the general population
21:46:30 <tpbsd> and you're probably right
21:46:44 <tpbsd> Forth users build tools to suit temselves
21:47:06 <tpbsd> not others because for one thing, they can only think for themselves
21:47:13 <tpbsd> not others
21:47:58 <rdrop-exit> yes, you can't please everybody, but you can make something that fits you perfectly
21:48:03 <tpbsd> I've been lucky with mecrisp, it suits the way I think
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21:49:10 <tpbsd> funny isnt it ? pretty much the only 'custom made' programming language one can get is Forth or Lisp ?
21:49:35 <tpbsd> everthing else is 'off the hook' 
21:50:22 <tpbsd> C will always look like C, Python will always look like Python etc
21:50:50 <tpbsd> rdrop-exit, do you ever read C.L.F on usenet ?
21:51:03 <rdrop-exit> yes, a couple times a week
21:51:30 <tpbsd> read posts by Raul Rubin ?
21:51:44 <tpbsd> I can never work out if hes a troll or just a PITA
21:52:09 <tpbsd> he posts as tho he knows Forth but I think he has never made anything with it
21:52:32 <rdrop-exit> Most of usenet is trolling, no different from the rest of usenet
21:52:40 <rdrop-exit> The name rings a bell
21:52:41 <tpbsd> hes not alone there I know, but hes fairly knowledgeable and polite, unlike some of the nutters
21:53:32 <tpbsd> I used to debate with him back in 2016 I think, at that time he had zero knowledge of Forth on embedded iirc
21:54:07 <tpbsd> he doesnt seem to have learnt much in the years I wasnt reading usenet (2016 - 2019)
21:54:11 <rdrop-exit> I don't remember any post in particular from him, but the name rings a bell
21:54:23 <tpbsd> hes a python user
21:55:01 <tpbsd> or claims to be. He advocates python on embedded but his arguments seem flimsy to me
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21:55:22 <tpbsd> not to worry, just wonder`ed if youd seen him
21:55:42 <rdrop-exit> I'll keep an eye out
21:56:01 <tpbsd> there are some very knowledgable Forth people there, mark willis, anton ertl etc
21:56:43 <tpbsd> and my favorite .. Elizabeth  D. Rather
21:57:21 <tpbsd> she goes way back to working with Moore in the early days
21:58:03 <rdrop-exit> Yes, but the discussions are often all about what ANS Forth is missing to make it more acceptable to the rest of the world
21:58:23 <tpbsd> yeah, 99% of it is of no interest to me
21:58:44 <tpbsd> but my 'next' button works very well :)
21:59:09 <rdrop-exit> More abstraction, more bloat
22:00:00 <tpbsd> when it comes to Forth online my own narrow set of interests mean that there is only a small area that ever interests me
22:00:22 <rdrop-exit> Elizabeth doesn't post often anymore sadly
22:00:51 <tpbsd> yeah, shes not young anymore either
22:01:00 <tpbsd> Ive always admired her
22:01:27 <rdrop-exit> Their main driver is standardization
22:01:29 <tpbsd> she actually supported a argument I made years ago, and that was it, Ive worshipped her ever since ;-)
22:01:36 <rdrop-exit> :)))
22:02:14 <tpbsd> yeah and forths main enemy is standardisation
22:02:31 <tpbsd> hey, I used Gforth for the first time ever this past weekend
22:02:54 <rdrop-exit> Standards are great, but Forth is my non-standard glue
22:02:55 <tpbsd> I never liked it and couldnt use it when I forst tried it
22:03:50 <tpbsd> but the newest thing Ive found in the past week is CRC's Retro
22:04:44 <tpbsd> I've been using Retro to do some stuff and it's like a fresh gust of mountain air down from the alps 
22:04:51 <rdrop-exit> cool
22:05:19 <tpbsd> where gforth is a monster, retro is a neat, tidy gymnast
22:05:50 <tpbsd> and the retro doc is awesome. Ive been easily able to use retro from the shell, and in a script
22:06:19 <rdrop-exit> Cool, quality documentation is a rare thing
22:06:37 <tpbsd> the utility of retro on unix seems unlimited
22:06:51 <tpbsd> yes, so true. Retro doc is outstanding
22:07:07 <tpbsd> and naturally good doc doesnt happen by acccident
22:07:22 <tpbsd> Retro uses Fossil SCM, same as me!
22:07:24 <rdrop-exit> Good doc is tons of work
22:07:30 <tpbsd> it can be
22:07:46 <tpbsd> to a programmer doc is hard, horrible and painful
22:07:55 <tpbsd> (usually)
22:08:06 <tpbsd> to a writer, doc is fun and a challenge
22:08:32 <rdrop-exit> What's nice about Fossil?
22:08:53 <tpbsd> as a tech, I'm ambivalent about doc, it's not painful, it's not outstanding fun
22:09:05 <tpbsd> fossil ? 
22:09:14 <rdrop-exit> yes
22:09:20 <tpbsd> fossil is very complex, so the answer isnt simple
22:09:46 <rdrop-exit> That's ok then, I'll find a youtube video to put on my watch list
22:09:48 <tpbsd> I have many reasons I like fossil
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22:11:44 <tpbsd> I like the fact that fossil is built on sqlite and each fossil repo is a single file containing everything in the SCM plus a wikki and a bug ticket system
22:12:20 <tpbsd> plus a web server for the SCM (if desired)
22:13:11 <rdrop-exit> do you use the wiki and ticket system for your projects?
22:13:18 <tpbsd> a fossil repo can hold anything from text to binary
22:13:22 <tpbsd> I do
22:13:53 <tpbsd> I use fossil for every project, be it embedded, forth, PC, documentation ... anything
22:14:19 <tpbsd> every night I back up all my fossil repos onto a usb drive
22:14:46 <tpbsd> they are also on a RAID file system with 15 minute snapshots
22:15:24 <tpbsd> I'm pretty sire if I lost my *.fossil repos youd hear my screams of grief for there
22:15:31 <tpbsd> rom there
22:15:40 <tpbsd> erk, I need a new keyboard
22:16:39 <tpbsd> I like that fossil is distributed, if I put a repo file online, you can clone it remotely
22:17:43 <tpbsd> having cloned mine, you can then upload to it if you have permission, and if you do and there is a conflict, it's designed to resolve them
22:18:37 <tpbsd> so because Retro uses Fossil, I was easily able to clone the current retro and build it here on this box, then install it
22:19:04 <tpbsd> it was smooth as silk, zero issues, built in about 0.1 second
22:19:30 <tpbsd> color me impressed
22:19:50 <tpbsd> the retro repo has the source, documentation, examples
22:20:30 <tpbsd> it's well thought out and cleanly maintained ... my stuff is a mad womans breakfast in comparison
22:30:15 <rdrop-exit> thanks for the info
22:30:42 <tpbsd> rdrop-exit, Re: Is the SiFive FE310 a Toy?
22:30:57 <tpbsd> Yes, it is a toy. It is a test chip that they decided to sell for fun. 
22:31:28 <tpbsd> rdrop-exit, that answer was from a serious russian american design engineer at microchip
22:32:16 <rdrop-exit> The one I'm looking at is the HiFive1 Rev B
22:32:19 <tpbsd> rdrop-exit, seems the FE310 used in the board you were planning to buy was just a prototype test chip
22:32:26 <tpbsd> yeah I know
22:32:33 <tpbsd> thats the chip in it
22:32:39 <rdrop-exit> ah, ok
22:33:01 <tpbsd> have a read: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/is-the-sifive-fe310-a-toy/msg2870482/#msg2870482
22:33:18 <rdrop-exit> ok thanks!
22:33:43 <tpbsd> I'm not a big fan of this forum as they seem to hate Forth but there are some very experienced embedded engineers there
22:33:55 <tpbsd> (who all hate forth)
22:34:21 <tpbsd> but I try not to let negative Forth opinions color my view of the engineer
22:34:41 <tpbsd> we all have our pet hates, mine is Microsoft and spiders
22:36:46 <tpbsd> hahah, the arduino users on that forum want to persuade this guy to make his book in english:
22:36:50 <tpbsd> https://botland.com.pl/en/books-about-microcontrollers/13945-stm32-microcontrollers-for-beginners-aleksander-kurczyk.html
22:36:58 <rdrop-exit> "SiFive's business model is based on designing custom computer chips for other businesses."
22:37:11 <tpbsd> so that they can try and understand the STM32F 'registers' !
22:37:34 <tpbsd> I guess SiFive plans to become anotehr ARM ?
22:37:52 <rdrop-exit> Something like that, yes.
22:38:10 <tpbsd> well, it's not a bad idea, the ARM owners made billions!
22:38:19 <tpbsd> er millions
22:38:54 <tpbsd> it was redhat who made 34 billion when they sold to IBM !
22:39:03 <tpbsd> is that INSANE or what ?
22:39:33 <tpbsd> I think ARM Holdings was sold for about 40 Million ?
22:40:27 <rdrop-exit> My main interest in their board is that it should follow the specs closely since they're the main guys pushing RISC-V. So I intend to use at as a test bed for verifying my tools.
22:41:35 <tpbsd> i can see some potential issues
22:41:42 <tpbsd> 1) hardware mistakes
22:42:02 <tpbsd> 2) subsequent mods and changes
22:42:55 <tpbsd> while it's attractive to use actual hardware, perhaps a software model would be better as errors/mods are easily incorporated ?
22:43:24 <tpbsd> or a FPGA implementation that can be upgraded ?
22:44:06 <tpbsd> ... just my 1cent ramblings, please ignore as appropriate 
22:44:56 <rdrop-exit> RISC-V is still immature, especially the debug layer
22:46:01 <rdrop-exit> So no doubt there will be many teething problems I'll have to deal with
22:47:45 <tpbsd> exctly
22:50:36 <rdrop-exit> one step at a time, I'm in no rush anyway
22:51:54 <tpbsd> yep
22:52:35 <tpbsd> I have 2x RISC-V boards the $4 Chinese ones and I must say, they chips are fast!
22:53:17 <tpbsd> ill do a bit more work on them but wont use them in any projects until I see that the chips are here to stay
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22:54:56 <rdrop-exit> wise
22:56:23 <rdrop-exit> bbiab
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