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00:20:30 <tpbsd> at last it's time to try my new Forth library strategy in practice, will it work???
00:20:42 <rdrop-exit> drum roll
00:20:47 <tpbsd> hehehe
00:22:28 <tpbsd> rdrop-exit, my Forth work has introduced me to many new concepts so quickly that I can remember the circumstances around not having any awareness of them previously
00:23:29 <tpbsd> normally regarding software I just bumble thru life at random with scant idea where I came from or where Im going
00:24:04 <tpbsd> the opposite is true regarding electronics of course
00:25:41 <rdrop-exit> I've forgotten many things because of Forth, mostly because they seem superfluous in a Forth context
00:26:13 <tpbsd> i guess they werent important then ?
00:28:42 <rdrop-exit> good question
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00:40:37 <rdrop-exit> perhaps Forth has desensitized me to the purported benefits of more sophisticated approaches
00:43:15 <rdrop-exit> I prefer my caveman ways
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00:54:19 <rdrop-exit> done with 1st cut of RISC-V 32IC compressed instructions
00:55:32 <rdrop-exit> they're doing some funky stuff in there
00:57:12 <rdrop-exit> e.g. the compressed right shifting instructions use the compressed branch instruction format
01:04:08 <rdrop-exit> Now onto volume 2 of the ISA manual, Privileged Architecture
01:06:28 <rdrop-exit> I shiver with anticipation
01:06:43 <rdrop-exit> ... of going cross-eyed
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01:55:43 <proteus-guy> rdrop-exit, you implementing this in an fpga? Which HDL are you using?
01:56:32 <tpbsd> proteus-guy, I don't think he is
01:56:54 <proteus-guy> oh - implementing a RISCV forth then? I was confused.
01:57:01 <tpbsd> proteus-guy, I think hes implementing it in the RISC-V 32IC datasheet
01:57:23 <rdrop-exit> yes, just implementing a RISCV Forth assembler (32IMC)
01:57:26 <tpbsd> proteus-guy, no, rdrop-exit is creating the "ONE FORTH" to rule them all
01:57:33 <proteus-guy> :-)
01:58:09 <rdrop-exit> not to rule them all, just a tool for little-old me
01:58:13 <tpbsd> proteus-guy, it's a tethered Forth that can handle any hardware using a special modified abacus for eash ISA
01:59:15 <rdrop-exit> Actually, if RISCV takes over the world, I won't need to support any other ISA
01:59:24 <tpbsd> proteus-guy, oh, and rdrop-exit's "one-forth" is completely uncontaminated with syntax!
01:59:59 <tpbsd> rdrop-exit, it could, but we may have died of old age by then
02:00:19 <rdrop-exit> that's ok, I'm having fun in the meantime
02:00:27 <proteus-guy> here's a nice little "Why Forth" video that was linked to from a Facebook Forth group: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PHPQcO0O2Y
02:00:50 <rdrop-exit> yes, I posted a link to it earlier
02:00:53 <rdrop-exit> nice work
02:01:19 <rdrop-exit> does he frequent this channel, or any other Forth hangout?
02:01:52 <rdrop-exit> I had fun reading the various reactions on different reddit threads
02:02:12 <proteus-guy> Dunno but I let him know that I've posted it here. Perhaps some of the members will drop in.
02:02:20 <rdrop-exit> cool
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02:04:32 <rdrop-exit> typical reaction: "What exactly can you achieve with those Forth words but not with first-class lexical closures?
02:04:35 <rdrop-exit> "
02:05:13 <rdrop-exit> "As I understand it, Forth doesn't have the concept of environment capture (i.e. closure) so I assume that sword cuts both ways?
02:05:16 <rdrop-exit> "
02:07:21 <rdrop-exit> "Ok. If Forth cannot capture environment then presumably it is also less capable in other respects?
02:07:24 <rdrop-exit> "
02:08:16 <rdrop-exit> sigh
02:11:29 <tpbsd> that's typical tho imo
02:12:13 <rdrop-exit> absolutely, they keep trying to analyze Forth as a pinned-down language
02:12:18 <tpbsd> you cant argue Forth on large systems like pc's 
02:13:36 <rdrop-exit> sure you can, I've used Forth on dedicated data warehousing related appliances
02:13:43 <tpbsd> I don't think Forth can compete in that area against the many far more popular languages
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02:14:24 <WilhelmVonWeiner> not unless you have chuck living in your brain like the alien from Men In Black
02:15:04 <rdrop-exit> what you can't argue for is a "general purpose" Forth competing with general purpose languages
02:15:06 <proteus-guy> tpbsd, I think it's hard to argue forth on larger systems without a type system. That's why I'm writing one. ;-)
02:15:43 <rdrop-exit> Forth is for dedicated systems
02:15:58 <tpbsd> proteus-guy, I'm not a programmer, my comments regarding any serious programming debates should be ignored
02:16:27 <WilhelmVonWeiner> proteus-guy: still workin' on ActorForth?
02:16:47 <tpbsd> proteus-guy, I'm only a embedded Forth user, I'm 100% sold on Forth on small embedded, but on a PC I still use perl, maybe one day lisp or smalltalk
02:16:51 <rdrop-exit> General purpose Forth is as uninteresting as the myriad of general purpose languages out there
02:17:05 <WilhelmVonWeiner> hahaha rdrop-exit 
02:17:07 <proteus-guy> WilhelmVonWeiner, as best I can. Got some progress in early December (after nothing since Sept). Was hoping to do more during the new year holidays but it didn't happen. Working on freeing my schedule again soon.
02:17:10 <WilhelmVonWeiner> agreed
02:17:29 <proteus-guy> tpbsd, that's the best space for Forth so no reason to qualify it with "only".
02:17:42 <tpbsd> I took one look at gforth and ran screaming back to Perl
02:17:45 <WilhelmVonWeiner> n-thousand languages that achieve the same things with slightly different syntaxes... great
02:17:54 <rdrop-exit> Forth is perfect as a secret weapon for dedicated systems
02:18:41 <rdrop-exit> It's not for a general purpose "language" for the masses
02:18:59 <tpbsd> after doing embedded professionally since the 70's using machine code, assembly and C, Im totally sold on Forth which Ive been learning since 2014
02:19:19 <tpbsd> ill never use anything else on small embedded now, no way
02:20:31 <rdrop-exit> kudos
02:20:51 <proteus-guy> rdrop-exit, agree - requires far too much personal discipline for the majority of devs.
02:21:13 <tpbsd> proteus-guy, the origins of Forth were on smallish systems for observatories and I think people trying to make Forth into a huge systems language like gforth are wasting their time trying to get traction in the C world
02:21:50 <rdrop-exit> they're turning Forth into interactive C
02:22:14 <tpbsd> well gforth does have the ability to utilise C libraries I believe
02:22:14 <rdrop-exit> I would not use Gforth for a product
02:22:44 <tpbsd> I did a word list in gforth and ran screaming from the room calling out for my mommy
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02:23:56 <rdrop-exit> Don't get me wrong I have nothing against Gforth per se, it's just an application of Forth concepts that I have no interest in
02:24:25 <tpbsd> for some reason, almost every Forth I have tried on a PC has segfaulted within a day or 2 of playing around with it. The one Forth that compiled in a blink and hasnt segfaulted is Retro, but Ive barely used it as the Vocabs were too strange
02:24:43 <rdrop-exit> If I'm coding for a POSIX OS I'll just use C
02:25:09 <rdrop-exit> If I'm writing throw-away text processing stuff I'll use AWK
02:25:21 <tpbsd> retro:  #2 #15 * #12 + n:put 
02:25:22 <retroforth-bot> 42
02:26:20 <tpbsd> but I'm growing more used to retro as I see it used here by crc and others
02:27:14 <tpbsd> in fact if any Forth persuades me to use it on a pc, it will be retro most likely
02:27:34 <tpbsd> by the same token, Im happy with Perl and C on the pc
02:27:40 <rdrop-exit> 2 15 * 12 + .
02:27:42 <rdrop-exit> 42
02:27:54 <tpbsd> and the usual bevy of unix utils such as shell, sed etc
02:28:34 <tpbsd> 2 15 * 12 + . 42 ok. 
02:28:34 <tpbsd> c 28,25 C 
02:28:34 <tpbsd> ok. 
02:28:34 <tpbsd> f 82,96 F 
02:28:34 <tpbsd> ok.
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02:29:08 <rdrop-exit> 29 C here
02:29:11 <tpbsd> thats a STM32F103CB with a LMT-01 2 wire temerature sensor on my desk
02:29:26 <tpbsd> running Mecrisp-Stellaris Forth 
02:29:27 <rdrop-exit> 630pm
02:29:39 <tpbsd> 9:30 pm here
02:30:07 <rdrop-exit> looks like you're weather is finally cooling down
02:30:30 <tpbsd> watching CRC using retro here to solve maths problems has had a significant effect on my opinion of Forth on the pc I must admit
02:31:36 <tpbsd> rdrop-exit, it's dropped a few degrees the last few days but we have straight 36C's until next saturday
02:31:38 <rdrop-exit> I have no interest in Forth on a PC except to talk to chips
02:31:56 <rdrop-exit> yikes
02:32:11 <tpbsd> rdrop-exit, I certainly have been the same way and still dont use Forth on the PC as yet
02:33:09 <tpbsd> but Forth is changing the way I look at things, I think that's inevitable when one uses it every day
02:33:50 <tpbsd> I'm pretty sure my Perl and C will start looking like Forth soon
02:34:26 <rdrop-exit> My C is Forthish looking
02:34:45 <rdrop-exit> to some small extent
02:34:52 <tpbsd> check this out! how hard to add Xon/Xoff to Mecrisp-Stellaris 
02:34:55 <tpbsd> : handshake-quit ( -- )
02:34:55 <tpbsd>   begin
02:34:55 <tpbsd>     xon
02:34:55 <tpbsd>     query
02:34:55 <tpbsd>     xoff
02:34:55 <tpbsd>     interpret
02:34:57 <tpbsd>     ."  ok." cr
02:34:59 <tpbsd>   again
02:35:01 <tpbsd> ;
02:35:03 <tpbsd> ' handshake-quit hook-quit ! quit
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02:35:43 <tpbsd> I havent tried it yet, this is matthias advice, he hasnt tried it either
02:36:24 <rdrop-exit> xon/xoff are just ascii characters
02:36:25 <tpbsd> he suggests that it may be problematic as the usual cheap usb/serial bridges have very large buffers
02:36:35 <tpbsd> thats right
02:36:58 <rdrop-exit>  $ 11 constant xon   \ aka ^Q
02:36:58 <rdrop-exit>  $ 13 constant xoff  \ aka ^S
02:37:02 <tpbsd> yes
02:37:31 <tpbsd> it's not the pr`otocol, it's the ease XON/XOFF can be added to a Forth
02:37:53 <tpbsd> at least, it surprised me
02:38:12 <tpbsd> ill be trying in next after a couple of mods Im doing
02:40:42 <rdrop-exit> I luv 7-bit ASCII
02:41:05 <tpbsd> not that you ever use it ?
02:41:33 <rdrop-exit> always use it, at least in Forth
02:42:00 <rdrop-exit> gives me an extra bit to play with :)
02:43:16 <tpbsd> i had you pegged as a ECBDIC man myself
02:43:44 <rdrop-exit> Last time I used EBCDIC was on a 4341
02:43:48 <tpbsd> "real Forth uses ECBDIC, we dont need no stinking ASCII!"
02:44:26 <rdrop-exit> that was a long time ago, 360 assembly language, still have the pocket opcode booklet
02:47:50 <rdrop-exit> ASCII is great for displaying raw memory, base 256,
02:47:51 <tpbsd> still in your pocket ... next to the sliderule ?
02:48:53 <tpbsd> intel may disagree, they thought that ASCII was hopeless at displaying 8 bit binary
02:48:59 <rdrop-exit> when the high-bit is on underline it, when it's a control character display the corresponding caret notation character in bold
02:50:15 <rdrop-exit> fairly easy to eyeball, and only the space character is displayed as a space
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02:50:53 <tpbsd> hmm why didnt they use that method then instead of ihex or moto S ?
02:51:17 <rdrop-exit> e.g. $ 00 (aka ctrl-@) is displayed as a bold "@"
02:51:45 <rdrop-exit> $ 40 is displayed as a normal "@"
02:52:09 <rdrop-exit> $80 is displayed as a boold and underlined "@"
02:53:04 <tpbsd> what about 10,20,30,50,60,70,90,A0,B0,C0,D0,F0 ?
02:53:28 <rdrop-exit> it's for display purposes, it's not a file format
02:54:00 <rdrop-exit> as I said earlier when the high bit is 1 underline it
02:54:38 <rdrop-exit> when the low 7-bits are a control character display the corresponding caret notation character in bold
02:55:01 <tpbsd> it's a programmer thing I think
02:55:45 <rdrop-exit> it's a quick and simple way to eyeball binary data, and takes have the display space of hex
02:55:58 <rdrop-exit> * half the display space of hex
02:57:19 <rdrop-exit> It beats displaying garbage characters and "invisible" characters
02:58:53 <tpbsd> you programmers know all the tricks!
02:59:00 <tpbsd> nice idea
02:59:08 <rdrop-exit> The important thing is that each of the 256 values of a byte has a unique display representation even on a dumb 7-bit ASCII terminal
02:59:23 <tpbsd> I've made a note of it as I often read hex dumps
03:00:12 <rdrop-exit> It's good for eyeballing, hex is better for detail work
03:00:58 <rdrop-exit> but hex takes twice as many display characters, so it's a nice supplement
03:01:57 <tpbsd> ill make a word to try it
03:02:00 <rdrop-exit> depict Translate a byte to its character-cell depiction.
03:02:07 <rdrop-exit>  : depict ( b -- cc )
03:02:08 <rdrop-exit>    dup >ascii ctrl?  ctrl boldness or  ~ ;inline
03:02:24 <rdrop-exit> cc stands for character-cell
03:02:37 <tpbsd> doldness ?
03:02:42 <tpbsd> boldness ?
03:02:55 <tpbsd> ahh ok
03:03:03 <rdrop-exit> has in if a character is displayed in bold on the terminal
03:03:08 <tpbsd> sure
03:03:24 <tpbsd> pretty cool
03:03:30 <tpbsd> recorded!
03:04:03 <rdrop-exit> in my character cell format the high bit of a character "happens to be" the underline indicator
03:04:26 <rdrop-exit> so I don't need to do anything special there
03:05:06 <rdrop-exit> bytes with their high bit set automatically have there underlining attribute set
03:05:21 <rdrop-exit> * their underlining...
03:06:43 <tpbsd> i understand
03:08:38 <rdrop-exit> ~ is equivalent to AND XOR
03:08:56 <rdrop-exit> i.e. it's a masked xor
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03:20:48 <rdrop-exit> wife is back, catch you tomorrow, keep on Forthin' :)
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03:22:44 <tpbsd> cya!
03:22:48 <tpbsd> thanks for the tips
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06:19:34 <tpbsd> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing-lost-its-bearings/602188/
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17:50:59 <crab1> How are you all
17:53:07 <tpbsd> g'day crab1! Ive rewritten and redesigned my ihex.fs program, it now takes parameters instead of needing a internal config change :)
17:53:36 <tpbsd> more professional, but I improve as I learn
17:54:33 <crab1> I've now read half of Paradise Lost, and endured another day of sickness, I am off to work soon
17:56:28 <tpbsd> sorry to hear you're sick
17:57:16 <crab1> it's fine, the poem entertains me
17:57:43 <crab1> working with sickness sucks though, and I am paranoid of spreading unhealth
18:00:15 <tpbsd> yeah, cow-orkers won't appreciate any contagious sickness being spread
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18:01:01 <crab1> But sick days are unpaid for me, and I can't afford the loss of revenue
18:01:28 <tpbsd> yeah, it's a dilemma
18:01:54 <tpbsd> and probably the number one reason why sick people work
18:02:45 <tpbsd> the obvious way for companies to avoid this is to pay for workers to stay home when they are sick, sadly such systems are easily exploited
18:02:53 <crab1> not even a dilemma, the answer is clear, but it's a "better of two evils" situation and I think others in my workplace understand that at least
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18:03:33 <crab1> well usually a full time worker has whatever amount of paid sick time and after that it's unpaid, which would be fine with me
18:04:07 <tpbsd> Dilemma definition, a situation requiring a choice between equally undesirable alternatives.
18:04:37 <crab1> but even my holidays are unpaid, so last month with holidays and half a week of fever, I was set back ~$800, nearly half of my monthly income
18:04:51 <tpbsd> there is no evil here, just the consequence of our choices
18:05:28 <tpbsd> I worked for myself the last 15 years, no holidays, no sickdays, I loved it
18:05:37 <crab1> tpbsd: by "it's not a dilemma" I mean that I have little choice but to go, as starving or losing my apartment are not things I consider options
18:05:49 <tpbsd> crab1, I understand
18:05:51 <crab1> I would like to work for myself, but I am definitely not there yet
18:06:01 <crab1> perhaps that oscilloscope will help me get there :)
18:06:10 <tpbsd> working for onself is a major undertaking
18:06:22 <crab1> anyway, off to work, I'll be back tomorrow
18:06:32 <tpbsd> cya, get well soon!
18:06:46 <crab1> or maybe it will be today for you? I am not sure what time you have
18:06:52 <crab1> anyway, enjoy your day
18:06:57 <tpbsd> 13:00 here
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19:56:03 <tpbsd> 37,31 C 
19:56:04 <tpbsd> 99,27 F
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