00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.01.06 00:10:58 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 00:15:19 topology is hard 00:15:28 and on that note, off to bed with me 00:15:57 g'night crab1 00:35:18 --- join: inode joined #forth 00:43:00 --- join: Phoenixwater[m] joined #forth 00:55:11 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 01:10:52 morning forth 02:18:22 Good evening. ;-) 5:17p here in Bangkok. 02:23:14 evening forth 02:39:22 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 02:45:44 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 02:48:39 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 04:08:18 --- quit: smokeink (Quit: Leaving) 04:56:26 --- join: xek_ joined #forth 05:06:59 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 05:08:19 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 05:10:40 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in) 05:25:10 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 05:46:57 --- join: Blue_flame joined #forth 05:47:23 --- join: learning joined #forth 06:16:42 --- quit: Blue_flame (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 06:17:34 --- join: Blue_flame joined #forth 06:21:50 --- join: Green_flame joined #forth 06:23:09 --- quit: Green_flame (Client Quit) 06:24:59 --- quit: Blue_flame (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 06:48:06 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 07:03:51 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 07:07:21 --- quit: xek_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 07:30:27 --- quit: learning (Remote host closed the connection) 07:32:17 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 07:33:21 --- join: karswell joined #forth 07:45:35 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 07:49:18 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 09:33:26 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 09:38:35 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 09:58:53 A bit surprised that there aren't a 09:59:43 any synthesiser channels easily found on IRC. 10:01:08 I asked alis, the Freenode service. An alternative service that indexes many different IRC networks found nothing relevant, too. 10:02:08 It's a bit like finding that there is no mention of easels or anchors in the English dictionary. 10:03:17 But yeah, it appears that synth people are too busy tweaking knobs or twiddling bits to engage in online discussion. 10:04:52 Plenty of forums, though. So I can look at what other people do. 10:06:24 Obligatory Forth reference: discovered at least one historic early digital design that had Forth as its onboard control language. 10:09:27 I'm sort of heading in the direction of a hybrid design. The analog feel and sound, but with digital methods to take care of boring stuff like tuning you're VCOs and filters for concert performance. And, of course, remembering all those pesky patch changes you made that sounded so sweet. 10:14:59 As I discussed recently when the Americans and Australasians were awake the other day, I want to make the entry cost very low. 10:17:56 As some people pointed out: cheap breadboards are prone to hideously high internal resistance, which really isn't a good idea if your have a voltage controlled oscillator and the breadboard is going to flatten your note by a few semitones. 10:19:20 Working on that. Digitally controlled tuning would be a possible solution. 10:22:45 That increases the component count, but you don't have to permanently monitor each oscillator and filter. Early analogue synths drifted all over the place, including the famous VCS3 like the one Eno played in a Roxy Music session for the BBC's Old Grey Whistle Test in 1972. 10:24:30 So maybe cheap breadboards, by lowering the price of entry, could become charmingly cute. 10:26:39 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 10:27:34 yay, synths! 10:36:10 All those kids with their Pocket Operators are going to want to add their own ideas. Sampling is by far the most sensible way to approach this. But some of them will want to look at how analogue synthesis works. They'll want to put components together and see it work. 10:41:33 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 10:42:03 I'm looking at the Volca Modular. That's a fine piece of kit at a really great price. It's also cleverly pitched at the bleeps and bloops fans, the experimentalists. 10:42:35 i've started building a modular 10:42:41 But it doesn't really go anywhere. 10:42:54 jn__, tell me more! 10:42:57 but it's a very slow-going project because i lack tools 10:43:13 so far i have a few ideas in a gitlab bug tracker 10:43:22 and i have power boards 10:43:35 and a few plates and rails 10:44:15 and a noise generator that doesn't have a face plate yet 10:44:40 and words of support from LOOKMUMNOCOMPUTER :) 10:45:01 I guess you would solder directly to protoboard if you dont mind wasting a few 10:45:23 MrMobius: yeah, that's my approach 10:46:25 I nearly went shopping for Eurorack. I'm trying to find a path that works like Lego (if kids could design their own arbitrarily complex Lego bricks.) 10:48:37 Euror 10:48:38 ack is still 10:48:41 a bit too pricy, though. 10:49:43 prebuilt eurorack is pricy, yes 10:50:34 Even the rails on their own are an investment. It's not consistent with the Lego principle. 10:51:47 You can buy a little Star Wars toy for your niece, next time your visit she's built the same parts into a design she originated. 10:52:06 i cheated and got used 3HU rails from a friend who took them out of used telco equipment 10:52:16 That's what's best about Lego and modular synthesis. 10:53:40 Human imagination plus low entry level. Low Fi. 10:55:29 In the early seventies I used to experiment with cassette tape and a cheap splicing tool I bought at the local Tandy. 10:58:16 Listened to George Martin's BBC talk about his work with The Beatles. Learned about what Martin called "automatic double tracking" (I think it has a different name now). You can do it by slightly altering the phase of a signal and duplicating onto itself. 11:00:24 I did this with cassette tape. The fidelity was low but the realisation that I'd achieved the same effect George Martin and his engineers achieved at Abbey Road was a huge improvement for me. 11:03:45 Tried a Leslie speaker effect once. It didn't work but I knew why. The microphone wasn't sensitive enough, the turntable was too small, it just couldn't produce the effect George Martin attributed to it. He was simplifying for the purpose of education. 11:05:59 The 11:06:08 Thea Musgr 11:06:33 ave, the compost 11:07:19 composer, also gave a talk on the BBC. She introduced a lot of ideas to me. 11:12:16 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 11:17:16 --- join: remexre joined #forth 11:18:19 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 11:18:41 Am I back? 11:21:09 Bright kids will go their own way. As a young teenager, before I studied music seriously 11:24:51 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Quit: Tony_Sidaway) 11:59:55 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 12:01:17 what is your country, mister Tony 12:23:31 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 13:15:57 --- join: ryke joined #forth 13:26:27 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 13:28:44 crab1, sorry I had to be away for a long time. crab1, you asked me what was my country. I'm English. 13:31:11 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 13:32:10 So my main source of musical knowledge was the BBC. They had Top of the Pops and then the Old Grey Whistle Test. BBC Radio 3 (culture) and Radio 4 (talk, news, etc) educated me in my teens. 13:33:16 I didn't play an instrument. I didn't have the time, my mind was too busy filling up with stuff. 13:37:26 I was desperately uncoordinated as a child. I could walk without tripping, but my physical coordination has always been poor. People thought I was just stupid until they saw the test results for written English, Arithmetic and abstract reasoning, which were far beyond their expectations for somebody so dumb. 13:45:38 crab1, noticed you saying in yesterday's log that you use and like cwm on OpenBSD. I love it, too. I love window managers that stay out of the way and are controllable via the keyboard. 13:46:14 I've successfully used cwm on Linux systems, too. 13:55:24 tpbsd, I've never used a scope but I suspect I may need one soon. I imagine the most important thing is to make sure it'll monitor the signals I'm interested in. So I need to look at ADCs that will scan fast enough to gather meaningful information at the relevant level. Connect them to a bit of logic and a computer interface. That's the scope. The interface is just a pretty picture drawn on the screen by software, and for contr 13:56:12 send signals to control the ADC (Analogue to Digital Converter) 13:57:12 or tweak the computer software to trim, zoom, trigger or whatever I want on the output. 13:58:26 I believe there are a number of scopes that use Arduino or similar. 14:02:05 Feel a bit guilty about ordering some keychain USB Beetles. This is a variant of Arduino Leonardo that has no usable output except the USB. 14:04:06 But ultimately these are all I need for software development on the AVR platform. Serial I/O, you can carry it in your pocket. 14:05:02 Plug it into any computer and you can program it using simple online tools. 14:05:47 Anyway, I'll give it a go. 14:07:41 Guilty because these devices are widely advertised as ways to infiltrate and subvert computers and networks. Not my game. 14:11:03 --- join: jedb_ joined #forth 14:13:32 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 14:30:34 But here's the news for anybody who hasn't yet got it: be careful what you plug into a USB port on any computer containing information you care about. Modern operating systems have gaping security holes. For instance _any_ device you connect to USB can create a keyboard device and use that to inject instructions to get around your security. 14:31:09 Tony_Sidaway, g'day! 14:31:49 Tony_Sidaway, yeah usb is actually a very fast embedded MCU and some memory 14:33:46 Many really small USB devices are actually capable of running a short range network (up to 10 metres, not so short!) and sucking sensitive stuff out of your computer to a nearby listening device, which can then send that information to anywhere in the world (or, to be pedantic, even off-world.) 14:34:48 Tony_Sidaway: dto @ #scheme is working on audio processing with [[https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/s7.html][snd]]. Is it related? 14:35:41 Tony_Sidaway, "short range network" ? 14:36:58 Tony_Sidaway, re a scope, you plan to build one ? 14:42:03 DKordic, that's a description of an interface with existing sound libraries. In Forth one would typically write ones own software. 14:42:29 tpbsd, Bluetooth 14:43:18 Tony_Sidaway, aha, not usb storage deviced 14:43:24 -d+s 14:44:57 tpbsd, I'm vaguely aware of various oscilloscope projects that would be relatively inexpensive compared to a modern scope. If I could pick up a good second hand one cheap on eBay, that would be good, too. 14:46:21 Tony_Sidaway, I recommend either a new low end Rigol scope or a secondhand decent scope but the problem is the scope probes, second hand scopes rarely come with them 14:47:35 I'm sure that small scope 'kits' are tolerable thesedays but you want one with a FPGA, not a MCU 14:47:37 tpbsd, there are in existence devices that you can buy online, that can masquerade as any USB device you like and use BLE or any other wireless mechanism to pass confidential information over an air gap to a receiver 14:48:40 Tony_Sidaway, I know that, I have a SD card with built in wifi thats about 10 years old 14:48:54 I think it was $90 back then tho 14:50:10 Tony_Sidaway, the best way to protect against data theft is to use Forth because then no one is interested in stealing your Forth data ;-) 14:50:36 tpbsd, I'm thinking about a scope. Anything I use in my projects must be dirt cheap, though . 14:52:24 I will assume that the kids I'm teaching (indirectly) have access to a computer and can ask for stuff for birthday presents and the like. 14:52:34 Tony_Sidaway, thats cool, but scopes arent projects, theyre test equipment and test equipment is expensive 14:52:48 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 14:53:24 There is no "test equipment" exception in a young child's budget. 14:53:30 one think to bear in mind is that scopes by their nature are portable, even if mains powered 14:53:59 Tony_Sidaway, are we discussing a scope for you or for a young child ? 14:54:15 Next year they'll probably want a telescope or a pair or running shoes and the scope will busy be an expensive doorstop. 14:54:21 children cant own scopes, way too expensive 14:55:00 tpbsd, that's why Arduino-based scopes are so attractive to me. 14:55:06 i had to wait until I was 15 to get my own scope .. no money 14:55:39 Tony_Sidaway, there are cheap scopes and good scopes, but there are no cheap good scopes 14:56:21 I'm hoping to hit a sweet spot at which the scope is worth building. 14:56:38 I have a $90 scope myself, it's built using a ipod case and display I believe, it came from china, and amazingly it still works and is ok 14:57:31 it's usb and the battery is still ok. I believe it uses a stm32 cpu running at 160MHz 14:58:06 but it's single channel, menu operated, fairly useless except in the field perhaps 15:01:25 I'm going to be looking at analogue synth signals. +-15V, mostly 100Hz to 20KHz. 15:02:33 which are among the easiest signals to look at, so that's a positive 15:03:00 This is probably well within the range of a software scope, with suitable amplitude attenuation. 15:03:01 nyquist theory requires a bandwidth at least 3 times that of the signal of interest 15:04:08 the main problem with software scopes is their 'handiness' I'm my opinion 15:06:25 It's great if your uncle can buy you a nice scope for your birthday , but meanwhile you can learn about why they're useful and why it's worth the struggle. 15:07:18 I think for kids a decent kit scope is ok 15:07:30 but not one with a mcu, forget that right away 15:07:37 thats a toy 15:08:06 search for a kit scope that uses a FPGA 15:08:33 When I was at school oscilloscopes were fucking enormous hunks of welded metal case, with a tiny screen on the front. They looked like something from Doctor Who 15:09:03 I think you're right about FPGA. 15:09:08 I have two small logic analysers they use FPGA's and are so good, I actually scrapped my HP logic analyser and use these instead 15:09:40 Tony_Sidaway, yeah, my first scope was like that 15:15:32 My physics teacher once set a scope up on his lab to trace a Lissajous curve. It was so pretty. I went back home and looked it up in the family encyclopaedia. My first encounter with parametric geometry! 15:16:16 yeah, we kids all loved that stuff 15:19:11 The Wikipedia article on Lissajous says the figure was adapted as a logo by ABC, so maybe you saw more of that than we did in England. 15:20:06 yeah Lissajous figures never grow old 15:24:37 --- join: learning joined #forth 15:32:11 Pisses me off a bit that I didn't know what calculus was until I was 16. I had spent a lot of my early teens struggling with intuitions that I had to reject. Then in the first week of my A Level mathematics course I was given this amazing affirmation of all my rejected adolescent intuitions. So yes, it really did make sense to look at the gradient of a curve, you really could approximate it as the gradient of adjacent points. A 15:33:18 I'd spent my entire adolescence thinking I was really dumb. 15:34:07 I was the reverse, I spent my childhood thinking adults were ignorant and lazy minded 15:34:48 when I hit adolescence i was too interested in girls to care about any of that 15:38:04 Ah. My first sexual experiences were with guys and I was way beyond adolescence by that time. I started masturbating at the age of 9 so I've always been a bit self-sufficient, sexually. 15:40:51 I discovered digital computers at about the same time as I learned about calculus. That pretty much determined the path my life would take. 15:45:37 Also, analogue computing. I keep a small circular sliderule in my pocket, and two of my favourite possessions are a very good working marine sextant and a device engineers used to use to compute the of a closed figure. 15:45:45 I was mad about electronics from the age of 9, of course there were no computers generally available then and everything used valves 15:45:50 *area 15:46:58 so my first scope used valves and was very heavy. I bought it for $35 iirc at age 15. It was a English "Cossor" double beam scope 15:47:11 second hand, ex army I think 15:48:07 the biggest problem you will encounter with scopes, are scope 'probes'. These are specalist and the cheap ones are awful 15:53:04 I remember the electronics books of the era. The culture was still very much about valves in the late sixties. My dad once bought a copy of an electronics magazine that had a small piece of veroboard stuck to the cover as a free gift. Amazing! You mean I could make a piece of electronics with that? I eventually used a tiny section of that board for my first electronic circuit. 15:54:32 tpbsd, yes, I can well imagine you have to be careful there. So much opportunity for noise. 15:57:02 --- join: ryke joined #forth 15:59:45 I think somebody asked, earlier, whether I had to skimp on price even for test equipment. 16:00:44 it's pretty simple with test gear. Skimp and your progress will be very slow. 16:00:55 I think I do. My aim is to explore the lowest conceivable level of electronics consistent with creativity. 16:04:07 With the right design it should be possible to build a synth that will work even if it doesn't do what you expected. From an engineering viewpoint that's a problem. To a person with the right kind of vision, it's a new world you explore. 16:05:34 So my aim is to produce tweakable designs that inspire tinkering. 16:07:26 This is what makes modular synthesisers so interesting. 16:10:38 You can make a simple passive filter with a few components. Add an op amp and you've got an active filter that could make an interesting change to an audio input. Put it on a breadboard and the kid can see what happens if they feed an LFO output into one of the op amp inputs. 16:11:22 Suddenly the kid is inventing a new patch. 16:11:41 more likely he is dismayed by the noisy performance 16:12:11 enough theory, go and actually make something and see what you get :) 16:15:16 Be patient. I also have to write a few bits of code to make Retro work on Attiny85. 16:17:13 The motivation for this analogue synth design is to convince me that the world has room for yet another AVR forth. 16:19:48 The idea is that the digital part of the system manages the tweaks, to some extent. 16:22:06 I've done everything you're planning to do, I require no patience. You however have a vast amount to learn about analogue electronics and the experiences will change your attitudes I'm sure 16:22:34 theory and actions are often worlds apart in analogue electronics 16:23:17 hence I counsel less talk and more action when it comes to analog electronics 16:31:20 Yes, you're right. 16:37:51 ooh, masturbation 16:38:59 I think of it is the day I learned about positive feedback loops! ;) 16:39:24 I have seen masturbation as a vice 16:39:44 Only if you hold it too tight. 16:41:06 At some point I decided "ceasing masturbation will be the thing I use to prove I have self control," and since then I have seen myself as a creature without self control. So I made it into a problem for myself, as taking back the goal is further proof that I haven't self control over all things 16:41:24 so the goal to stop remains, and I have not stopped sex/masturbation 16:41:39 I am yet a slave to my addictions 16:42:13 Sorry, if you're not a native English speaker that pun may not be obvious (vice, a device for gripping; vice, a sin) 16:42:25 I understood your pun, I just ignored it lol 16:43:08 I derive more enjoyment from puns that appear to go unnoticed, for some reason 16:43:26 makes the joke feel more secret and adds an element of dramatic irony to it 16:43:55 even if you know and I know but you do not know that I know, that element is there, and entertains me 16:44:08 but now all is revealed! 16:45:08 Yeah, puns as flirting. I can work with that. 16:48:54 you say you enjoy calculus? 16:51:00 I just seemed to intuitively think in terms of calculus as a youngster. Now it's just the background noise of my existence. I'm in my sixties. 16:51:45 Oh! I must be pretty young for this group 16:52:46 Mostly what I think about now is baroque choral music, good literary fiction, and cheap and nasty electronics. 16:53:05 I've been reading more fiction lately 16:53:22 hahah, "cheap and nasty electronics" is a precise and accurate description 16:53:30 I am starting Paradise Lost probably tomorrow 16:54:11 Listening to a lot, I use my eyes for technical stuff so audio books are a handy auxiliary input. 16:55:26 I struggle with audiobooks, the voices tend to annoy me or lend what feels like false meaning to whatever I'm listening to. I think it's better if I've read the book and use an audiobook for a re-read, though 16:56:48 I should probably listen to a reading of Milton's poem. So much stuff lately is loosely related to it: the television miniseries of Gaiman and Pratchett's Good Omens, Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials, and more. 16:57:05 I'm a book reader also, (ebook) speech is way to slow for me 16:57:42 34,43 C 16:57:43 94,09 F 16:58:02 compliments of my Forth powered desk thermometer 16:58:30 --- quit: learning (Remote host closed the connection) 16:58:52 Paradise Lost's impact is certainly prolific 16:58:59 especially on authors 16:59:10 tpbsd: that is quite hot 16:59:45 tpbsd, yikes. It's winter here so the daytime maximum temperatures are from 2-10, and I keep the house temperature at 16-18. 17:00:45 it is 3C here 17:01:57 crab1, I guessed you must be in Germany. Your English is perfect, by the way. 17:02:16 I'm actually in the US 17:02:28 Ah well ... 17:02:29 I had to convert to C for your convenience 17:03:32 You're in the US? Despite that, your English is perfect! 17:03:51 well thank you, I try 17:05:56 My daughter keeps exotic pets so she's learned to use Fahrenheit from all the American websites. I have to translate room temperatures for her. 17:06:42 it's summer here 17:07:15 forecast today is for a high of 35C 17:07:35 Im estimating it will go higher as the peak heat is in 3 hours 17:07:43 3 - 4 hrs 17:08:19 The newspapers here are full of the weather news from Australia, particularly the fires in Victoria and NSW. 17:08:26 bbl chaps out shopping 17:08:29 is it your summer then? (tpbsd) 17:08:32 yes 17:08:34 ah toodleoo 17:08:47 I'm soon off to work myself 17:08:59 https://www.skynews.com.au/ 17:09:10 thats a good source for our fire info 17:09:31 ignore most of the media palava, theyre just news mongers 17:09:51 and the politicians are mostly full of ignorant political baby kissing 17:10:07 you can believe the fire chiefs etc 17:10:21 bbl 17:10:47 there's fire right on the home page 17:11:58 Piers Morgan! Bloody hell. That's the last guy I'd want to read on any subject. 17:13:43 One of the few people I still follow on Twitter is Michael Mann. Paleoclimatologist, lets his science do the talking. 17:15:05 I use no social media besides IRC and matrix 17:15:27 and I'm not sure messaging protocols exactly count 17:17:04 I stopped contributing to social media a few months ago. It was hogging too much of my attention. So much stuff to get outraged about. 17:18:41 Nobody should really care about my opinion. I'm a boomer, it's my generation that got us into this mess 17:21:30 The sooner my generation dies out and stops voting for fascists, the sooner our kids can try to rebuild the world in the ashes we left behind. 17:21:58 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 17:24:28 --- join: jedb__ joined #forth 17:25:40 "The more the merrier, phone got you livin' vicarious" is a line from a song that pretty much sums up my opinion of social media and smartphones 17:25:56 and is a good part of why I no longer have a smartphone or participate in social media 17:25:56 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 17:26:13 --- part: tabemann left #forth 17:26:47 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 17:27:36 --- quit: jedb_ (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 17:28:53 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Quit: Tony_Sidaway) 17:29:30 --- quit: crab1 (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 17:39:10 --- join: crab1 joined #forth 17:43:46 --- quit: crab1 (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 17:46:35 --- join: dys joined #forth 18:06:49 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 18:09:34 --- join: learning joined #forth 18:12:44 --- quit: learning (Client Quit) 18:16:13 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 18:28:45 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 19:07:11 --- join: smokeink joined #forth 19:07:57 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 19:12:23 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 19:12:25 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 19:13:28 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 19:25:58 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 19:26:32 --- join: karswell joined #forth 19:30:30 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 19:30:39 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 19:31:47 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 20:36:31 Someone made a "Why Forth?" video: 20:36:32 https://youtu.be/7PHPQcO0O2Y 20:37:08 yeah, I saw it 20:37:47 g'day Zen Forth Guru! 20:38:20 Hello Forth Master Technician (tm)! 20:38:48 there are two types of Forth videos on utube in my observation, PC based Forth or academic Forth, and embedded Forth 20:40:27 Reading some of the comments on reddit about this video 20:40:37 Ive always found the former type very boring and dont see any real advantage using Forth on a PC, tho retro may change my mind 20:41:23 I dont believe that there is "one programming language to rule them all" for every class of computing 20:41:41 I don't think of Forth as a language 20:42:03 it is a language, it's a language no one knows ;-) 20:42:49 there is no Forth language, just Forths 20:43:08 i mean if you consider the meaning of 'language' then Forth is a language ? 20:43:23 it's illogical to argue otherwise 20:43:30 ... captain 20:43:46 show me the Forth language 20:43:50 Forth is a language, just not a language as we know it 20:44:09 show me the 'not a Forth language' 20:44:36 ok, the Empire State Building 20:44:47 all forths are different, but theyre still all languages 20:45:22 good example, I conceed that the Empire State Building is probably not a Forth 20:46:48 hindi is a language, it's not a english language, or a russian language, but it has a reliable syntax that it's creators understand. I submit that Forth is similar in that same manner 20:47:20 Forth has no syntax 20:48:04 Forth has syntax as designed by it's creator who understands it perfectly 20:48:37 Forth does not come from nothing, it is built on a syntax by it's creator 20:49:19 I may not understand the syntax, but that does not mean it has no syntax 20:52:25 You can't pin it down 20:53:27 It's useless to think of Forth in traditional computer language terms 20:53:33 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 20:53:43 sure 20:53:56 This is why people have such a hard time groking Forth 20:54:34 I'm often criticised for my philosophical attitude towards Forth, even by Forth users 20:55:00 I think people have such a hard time groking Forth for many reasons 20:55:18 I know it took years for the 'penny to drop; in my case 20:55:22 The first reason is they try to think of it as a language 20:55:45 and thats understandable, we use what we know 20:56:35 as a language, Forth looked like a mad womans breakfast to me 20:56:55 and that was before I even considered RPN 20:57:57 initially I was very confused why anyone would use Forth 20:59:50 total interactive control 21:01:23 sure, but *how to get that* is confusing to a new user 21:01:37 because they think of it as a language 21:01:42 :-p 21:02:03 I prefer to think of Forth as a tea pot, thats what works for me 21:02:56 sure a tethered tea pot 21:03:32 I have a special language I invented, I call it my "forth tea pot language" you can see example of the syntax here: https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/ihex-32bit.html#sourcecode 21:04:04 no, my tea pot is completely stand alone 21:04:36 I can take my tea pot outside far away from the stove, and it's still a functional teapot 21:05:39 your teapot is a Schrodinger's Cat teapot, is it tethered or not ? 21:07:29 in your case it's tethered or not depending on the content of the argument at hand, but in the real world it's neither as you haven't finished the design. Mine is non tethered in my arguments and in my real world projects 21:08:14 I have a motor speed and direction controller running on my test bench right now, it definitely is a non tethered Forth and it definitely has syntax 21:09:39 it's quite clever, but because it's a commercial project I can't go into the details 21:10:10 here is another one with syntax 21:10:31 c 33,81 C 21:10:32 ok. 21:10:43 f 92,74 F 21:10:43 ok. 21:11:11 or if I press the pushbutton switch, it us totally syntax free ;-) 21:11:24 33,75 C 21:11:24 92,86 F 21:11:33 notice the lack of "ok." ? 21:11:57 I don't use "ok" 21:12:24 ok 21:14:16 it's useless in a full-screen forth 21:14:42 sure, and I think your FSF will be awesome 21:15:52 my 'semi tethered' Forth makes the best use of my humble integration ability and someone elses Forth to achieve a result as close to what I want, as I am able to achieve 21:17:09 but I set myself certain parameters that had to be achieved before I would use it everyday 21:37:34 It's been a long time since I've used anyone else's Forths, at least 25 years 21:40:46 I still have a bunch, but the diskettes are probably unreadable by now 22:10:14 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 22:35:39 --- join: dys joined #forth 22:41:35 --- quit: Kumool (Quit: FreeZNC - Visit us! Server: chat.freenode.net Channel: #bnc4you) 23:10:40 rdrop-exit, arent your old forths on cuniform clay tablets ? 23:14:05 --- join: Kumool joined #forth 23:16:12 migh as well be :) 23:17:33 :) 23:43:45 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 23:43:58 --- quit: Kumool (Quit: FreeZNC - Visit us! Server: chat.freenode.net Channel: #bnc4you) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.01.06