00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.01.03 00:30:25 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 00:34:53 --- join: xek_ joined #forth 00:37:37 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 01:14:34 --- join: dys joined #forth 01:25:37 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 02:20:14 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 02:38:56 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 04:44:17 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 05:10:31 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in) 05:41:26 --- quit: smokeink (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 06:00:43 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 06:32:36 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 06:48:55 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 07:11:40 --- join: learning joined #forth 07:27:55 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 07:34:20 --- join: karswell joined #forth 09:25:38 --- quit: clog (^C) 09:25:38 --- log: stopped forth/20.01.03 09:25:48 --- log: started forth/20.01.03 09:25:48 --- join: clog joined #forth 09:25:48 --- topic: 'Forth Programming | logged by clog at http://bit.ly/91toWN backup at http://forthworks.com/forth/irc-logs/ | If you have two (or more) stacks and speak RPN then you're welcome here! | https://github.com/mark4th' 09:25:48 --- topic: set by proteusguy!~proteusgu@cm-58-10-208-146.revip7.asianet.co.th on [Mon Dec 30 10:43:29 2019] 09:25:48 --- names: list (clog ryke f-a karswell learning dddddd xek_ X-Scale jedb__ Keshl cantstanya crab1 dave9 djinni patrickg guan MrMobius jimt[m] siraben nonlinear[m] tpbsd WilhelmVonWeiner pointfree reepca cp- cheater malyn Lord_Nightmare ecraven rann phadthai ovf rpcope- mstevens yunfan jpsamaroo jn__ Robert hegemoOn heredoc diginet2 dzho bluekelp newcup jhei dbucklin a3f C-Keen retroforth-bot @proteusguy APic pareidolia chunkypuffs koisoke ornxka irsol catern +KipIngram presiden) 09:25:48 --- names: list (+crc DKordic arrdem mjl dne rprimus) 09:27:49 --- quit: learning (Remote host closed the connection) 09:36:04 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 10:31:28 --- quit: f-a (Quit: leaving) 11:05:56 --- quit: ryke (Remote host closed the connection) 11:06:17 --- join: ryke joined #forth 11:19:25 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 11:21:13 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 11:39:30 --- join: learning joined #forth 11:45:20 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 12:16:47 --- join: inode joined #forth 12:16:54 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 12:24:01 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 12:26:51 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 12:31:33 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 12:35:24 --- quit: learning (Remote host closed the connection) 12:37:09 --- join: ryke joined #forth 12:38:18 I'm suddenly possessed of a fancy to build a modular synth on solderless breadboards. 12:38:34 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Quit: Tony_Sidaway) 12:41:30 I guess he's gone to do it 12:43:01 I was just about to tel lhim thats a good idea 12:43:14 I usually dont realize someone has left until my tab complete cant find them 12:44:16 I usueally realize when the chat says "X has quit" 13:15:19 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 13:16:46 I'm drawing a line under 12-15V, 1V per octave, TRS jacks and 19” 3u racks. 13:19:09 The modern world is full of low voltage kit that didn't exist in the sixties when Moog introduced and defined the modular analogue synth. 13:19:21 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 13:37:56 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:09:37 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 14:12:57 crab1, MrMobius thing is, I myself often don't realise I've been disconnected until I try to say stuff. I was out of the house but now I hope things will be more stable. 14:16:58 I've been looking at the cost of Eurorack synths and realise that the cost of entry is still very high compared to comparable technologies such as Arduino and even Raspberry Pi, which have a huge range of audio-compatible stuff working at 0-3.3V. 5V is also possible but that would exclude many perfectly good SOCs. 14:18:26 And solderless breadboards along with dupont cables are very cheap and have proven their versatility for patching. 14:18:47 I need to play with hardware more 14:19:20 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 14:19:22 but playing with hardware is more expensive than playing with software, and that will never change 14:22:17 Yep, but the expense of hardware at the popular end has tumbled. The processors I'm developing for very inexpensive, especially if you are prepared to wait for delivery from China or have a decent local supplier. 14:23:43 And typically you can still get through-hole breakouts, though I'm looking into surface mount soldering using a toaster oven. 14:24:27 good breadboards are a little expensive but definitely worth it 14:24:48 I have a really cheap chinese one that goes from 3.6v to ~2v from one side to the other 14:24:54 definitely not worth it 14:25:43 what's an example of a "good" breadboard 14:26:27 MrMobius, that would be a catastrophically bad breadboard for an analogue synth! 14:27:27 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0040Z4QN8/ 14:27:36 thats the one Ben Eater recommended in his videos 14:27:43 I got 8 or so and they are all good 14:27:55 crab1, a good breadboard for digital purposes would be one that doesn't flip you 1 to 0 (or vice versa) from one end of the board to the other. 14:27:57 but cost like 4x more then chinese trash 14:28:58 but $7.90 you call that expensive? 14:29:12 A good breadboard for analogue synthesis would be one that doesn't have a noticeable decibel drop across the same distance. 14:29:19 crab1, if you buy 10 of them 14:29:23 vs $2 14:29:31 why you need 10 14:29:45 you cant fit that much on one 14:30:12 do they have huge ones 14:30:17 dunno how many chips you need for a synth but im guessing youll need a lot of those 14:30:19 like several feet across 14:30:32 not that I know of 14:30:44 but that would be really expensive at $8 each 14:32:13 Put it this way: typically a modular synth module contains a few dollars US of electronics, but depends on an infrastructure costing a lot of money. 14:32:47 3000 points seems to be about as big as these breadboards are getting 14:32:58 The main advantage of using breadboards for modular synths is that the entry price is low enough to bring new people in. 14:36:17 I could design and construct a simple LFO that would fit a solderless breadboard, and kids could build it themselves. Moving on from that you could build your own synth and understand how and why it works, and how to build your own synth gear and interface it with other electronics. 14:38:11 LFO = Low frequency oscillator, a key component of analogue synthesis. 14:39:32 Filters, sequencers, they're all very simple modules that can typically be built on a standard breadboard with plenty of room to spare. 14:40:42 Need a patch from one module to another, or even within a module? No problem. That's how breadboards work. 14:52:51 First lesson: build your backboard. An offcut of MDA from the local DIY shop. Get a parent or mature friend to help you to glue, tack or screw a breadboard to the end of the board. 14:55:32 Get a smartphone charger. Instructions on how to connect 0V and 5V microUSB to a voltage regulator and feed the output to the bus rails of the breadboard. 14:56:31 What is MDA 14:59:20 i think I meant MDF (Medium density fibreboard). 15:00:00 ah 15:02:14 I'm essentially describing how you'd get a schoolchild to the point where they could grapple with both digital and analogue electronics by begging their adult carers for inexpensive items to could put together to make something wonderful. 15:03:18 "Buy me £12 worth of breadboards on eBay, here's the link. Thanks Grandpa." 15:08:21 "I need another six 741s to complete my online perfomance in of John Cage's 4′33 ." 15:25:59 My genius son saw my reference to the John Cage piece and mentioned another, which we just watched. It's a hoot. Failing, by Tom Johnson. 15:26:04 https://youtu.be/wWIm8j9RKSs 15:27:39 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Johnson_(composer) 15:30:24 Now that would be difficult to rework for electronic instrument. I think there are probably kids as yet unborn who might one day perform such a piece at a science fair. 15:31:55 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 15:38:11 Before I embark on my breadboard empire-based career, though, I do think it would be a good idea to check the claims about mass-produced breadboards. 15:38:45 what claims 15:43:48 crab1, I think you may recall that at least one person said here that a Chinese breadboard lost over 1V (3.5 down to 2, I think) across the panel. I assume that would be laterally, across the busbars. If vertically, down the verticals, I find that implausible as it would fail the most basic QA. 15:45:21 In any case, this seems to be a claim that would be easy to prove. 15:45:25 I was confused because the more expensive alternatives are mass produced as well so I didn't see any claims specifically about mass produced ones 15:46:23 crab1, I think the specific reference was to inexpensive Chinese hardware. 15:48:00 In any case, I'm not currently inclined to take such claims too seriously. I'm just hoping for further information. 15:49:05 I don't e 15:49:12 I don't e 15:50:23 Oops. My phone keyboard coordination has reached its nadir. Goodnight all. 15:50:44 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Quit: Tony_Sidaway) 15:57:22 --- quit: inode (Quit: ) 16:03:29 --- join: Kumool joined #forth 16:56:24 --- join: ryke joined #forth 17:19:22 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 17:20:41 --- quit: Lord_Nightmare (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 17:25:27 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 17:28:03 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 17:29:05 Tony_Sidaway, all those breadboards are total junk 17:29:38 greets all, the technical prophet of cheap Chinese junk doom has arrived :) 17:30:43 my old breadboards all cost about $35 each back in the day 17:31:15 tpbsd, well I wonder where you get this idea that Chinese stuff is rubbish, since a lot of the best electronics is constructed in China. 17:32:00 Tony_Sidaway, personal experience sadly 17:32:41 I wish it was only a 'idea' and that the idea was wrong 17:33:17 --- join: learning joined #forth 17:33:36 Ive watched the quality of many things decline to 'junk' status as manufacturing moved to China 17:34:21 being 65 years old I get to see how times and things change 17:35:37 I'm probably typing my babbling nonsense into this IRC channel using substantively Chinese technology. 17:36:03 a typical indicator that a breadboard is junk is the lack of specs, what current are the contacts rated for, are the contacts gold/silver plated ? 17:37:37 Good question. Would precious metal contacts make my prototype work better? 17:38:00 oh, and the 'dupont patch leads' you referred to above are simply utter crap as well, thats the only paramater that they have proven 17:39:03 Dupont is just my gloss for "bare wire". 17:39:06 Tony_Sidaway, Id forget all about that junk and use another older, proven prototype method 17:39:52 'dupont cables' are belts of coloured cables with either male or female connectors on each end 17:40:45 while the concept is excellent, the implementation is cheap junk 17:40:55 it's the price 17:41:02 Tony_Sidaway, I wanted to make a synth at one point. can you expain how samples work? like if I have something I want to play in memory and I want to raise the pitch, I just cycle the values from there into the DAC faster? 17:41:47 the part that I dont get is what happens when you raise the pitch really high. wont your sample just finish instantly vs a couple seconds if you played it at a slower frequency? 17:42:12 MrMobius, Ive wondered the same thing ! 17:43:52 MrMobius, you're referring to digital synthesis. I have no knowledge specific to your question, though I'm pretty sure a quick Wikipedia search would enlighten me. 17:44:25 youre making an analog synth then? 17:45:34 Tony_Sidaway, I recommend you use double sided copper clad board (phelolic is cheap and easy) and what I call the 'island' prototype method 17:46:26 The modular synthesisers I'm interested in don't sample anything. That's what synthesis originally meant: everything is made up (synthesis). 17:46:32 tpbsd: what do you suggest for breadboards then? is that what the copper board alternative is 17:46:54 Tony_Sidaway, when it comes to analog design, noise is a major factor and digital methods will serve you very poorly 17:47:48 crab1, g'day! yes I recommend the old 'hand made' ways for low amplitude analog prototyping 17:48:23 Tony: I thought synthesizers are supposed to combine signals, like the regular definition of synthesis 17:48:49 but now a search indicates that they produce signals, so I am confused about the name "synthesizer" 17:49:04 crab1, it's far cheaper and better in every way. Ironically the biggest problem then becomes buying genuine, non fake chips if one shops using ebay or Chinese vendors 17:49:36 tpbsd, I do happen to have some boards of that type. I agree that solderless boards may prove less than useful for analogue circuits. 17:50:20 crab1, you're still right, 'made up' 'generated' and 'synthesis' are the same 17:51:20 what would be the first tools to get if you want to get into playing with electronics 17:51:27 Tony_Sidaway, solderless boards will only guarantee frustration in the endeavour youre planning 17:51:50 The earliest synths literally produced sounds never heard before. 17:51:52 voltmeter and solding iron are musts, right? 17:51:56 crab1, a digital oscilloscope 17:52:29 Oh those are expensive things 17:53:15 you guys are all software people and some have a hardware interest, so let me put it this way 17:53:16 I think my father has some at work that are upwards of $20,000 17:53:52 yeah, they can be very expensive, a $million is not out of the question 17:54:25 lets assume I want to learn programming and ask here "what would be the first tools to get if you want to get into playing with programming" ? 17:54:50 someone would recommend a computer 17:55:05 but I dont have one, and Id like to use pen and paper 17:55:14 because computers are expensive 17:55:39 pen/paper are perfectly reasonable for some computing 17:55:50 I often use pen/paper 17:56:04 lol 17:56:07 now pen and paper is ok, hell you can buy simple calculating devices made out of cardboard or wood, slide rules etc 17:56:48 but they only take you so far and slowly 17:56:56 it's the same with electronics 17:57:23 you dont *need* a DSO (digital oscilliscope) but youll progress faster with one 17:57:29 that's what forth is good for, the "from the ground up" theory 17:58:02 Kumool, and from 'the top down' design ;-) 17:58:56 top down is not something I can commit fully to 17:59:06 Before synths really existed in name there was something called musique concrète, which involved heavily processed sound. The BBC Radiophonic Workshop also produced new sounds using a variety of techniques. The original Doctor Who theme, adapted by Delia Derbyshire from a score by Ron Grainer, is typical of the pre-synth period. 17:59:18 I was a slow starter because as a kid I had to save up for a scope and at 15 I bought a second hand "cossor double beam" scope for $20 from a army surplus store 18:00:21 Tony_Sidaway, I watched the first Dr Who episode and found it very scary indeed, the 'theme' music was amazing 18:01:44 tpbsd, I do agree that I need to develop a whole heap of skills and tools. A scope may well be my top purchase. 18:02:47 by top down I mean if I was designing a washing machine controller Id start with these words ( power-on fill agitate drain spin power off ) then I'd fill in each word etc 18:03:34 So step 1: digital oscilloscope, and hardware to make circuits with 18:03:48 the last words Id create would be the lowest level Words that would look a lot like Assembly Language to someone who didnt know Forth 18:04:35 crab1, scope, soldering iron and hand tools would be my suggestion 18:05:37 tpbsd: I start with the ": wash on fill agitate drain spin off ;" but after that I approach the rest in whatever order strikes me or whatever I've gotten ideas for 18:05:58 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 18:06:02 anyway, I must go to work, I will ask my father about oscilloscopes later 18:06:05 seeya 18:06:08 cya! 18:07:40 My top down is "have fun" and the second level is something like "is [new thing] fun? if true, fuck me, that's amazing! else shit, that's a bit weird maybe later." 18:09:50 Amazing how much stuff I really didn't get as a younger person now comes back to me as beautiful. 18:17:13 Tony_Sidaway, yeah, age brings wisdom :) 18:19:46 or dementia 18:19:57 hahaah 18:20:05 unless dementia is the ultimate form of wisdom 18:20:08 which could be true 18:20:18 Kumool, it could 18:20:34 Lying in bed now with beautiful greyhound bitch, my daughter's dog. Today she had a tooth descaling under general anaesthetic so she's still recovering. She will never do anything I would expect a human child to do, but she's great at being a dog. She forages when I take her for a walk, and I love 18:21:12 mans best friend! 18:21:42 to let her roam. It's her walk, after all, not mine. 18:24:17 wait 18:24:30 your daughters dog is called "beautiful greyhound bitch"? 18:25:02 Kumool, at my age, mortality is a given. The likelihood of dying by entirely natural causes is not yet high, but it's significant enough to have a number that my doctors have imparted to me. 18:25:04 Kumool, thats a pretty good name! 18:25:57 Tony_Sidaway: wait, I wasn't talking about mortality. don't bum me out man 18:26:08 Kumool, she's a beautiful greyhound bitch. Her name is Neve. 18:26:17 --- quit: learning (Remote host closed the connection) 18:28:31 please don't call your dog a bitch on christmas, they like to be called ho's on this season. 18:28:34 :) 18:28:57 yeah, dont remind those of us who are 65+ of our mortality! 18:29:21 anyway, I better sleep, tata bitch 18:29:42 As for mortality, I have to point out that I wasn't the person who introduced the idea of dementia . That's a partial death. My mother succumbed to dementia in her early sixties, and it felt as if the person I'd grown up with had died 18:29:43 cya 18:30:07 Tony_Sidaway, Im sorry to hear that 18:31:57 Kumool, in the UK where I live, the term bitch is used to refer to a female dog. Nobody I respect would use the word ho. 18:33:00 Tony_Sidaway, same here in australia 18:39:22 tpbsd, thanks for your comments about my mother's dementia. My eldest sister is the really organized member of our family, and she made sure that our mother was given a place in a home where her needs were catered to and she was able to feel happy (she became a wanderer, and they let her do that and always made sure she was well watered and well fed). 18:39:24 --- quit: Kumool (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 18:40:23 Tony_Sidaway, Ive known people who suffered from it myself 18:40:46 you have to experience something to understand it 18:41:10 The last time I visited her, she thought I might be her brother. But she was clearly delighted to see me and we hugged. 18:41:18 how many non Forth programmers can understand what Forth is ? 18:41:25 :) 18:46:10 We start with the word Forth on our data stack, tokenise it using a dictionary lookup, then elaborate the definition. Does that mean we understand it? Possibly. Or alternatively we are merely programmed to act as if we understand Forth. 18:46:55 it's complex, but even new Forth users dont usually understand what Forth is 18:50:28 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 18:51:24 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 18:51:46 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 18:52:19 I know what Forthers do. I like Frank Sergeant's concept of a minimal Forth that only comprises three words. 18:54:21 it was a good idea, I spent a year playing with 'riscy pygness' it's unfinished and unreliable 18:55:28 He's a forth in progress. 18:56:21 no, frank hasnt done any Forth for years 18:56:34 he went off into writing ebooks 18:56:57 I actually donated $100 USD to frank for Riscy Pygness in 2014 19:01:12 tpbsd: that shunting problem looks interesting, but I won't have time to work on a solution in forth for a while 19:01:53 crc, :) but you want to do it dont you ? 19:03:42 We're all Forths in progress. I can trace my own interest in Forth back to my acquisition (as a Christmas present) of a Palm m100 series handheld in 1999. I looked for small implementations of Tcl but there were none that would fit. So I installed Fred Bayer's lispme (actually a very competent implementation of R4RS Scheme) 19:05:19 wow 19:06:35 Scheme became a journey that eventually led me to Forth as a very minimalistic way to do the kind of thing I love about Scheme, in a much smaller footprint. 19:08:48 On the kind of hardware I like to work with, a garbage collecting language is not ideal. 19:09:26 as in small embedded real time hw ? 19:12:41 tpbsd, yes. Along the way I got into robotics, and played with Raspberry Pis, a Beaglebone Black, and eventually the whole AVR microcontroller family. I seem to have picked up AVR assembly language somehow. 19:15:05 I'm a software person, so my most longstanding and most fervent connection is with the AVR's most intimate software architecture. 19:16:30 ah yes 19:17:00 --- join: smokeink joined #forth 19:18:22 I love the fact that now I can actually connect circuits up using a soldering iron. For a long time I was scared to do that. 19:19:40 amazing 19:19:52 I taught myself to solder at age 9 19:21:55 Still want to design that solderless breadboard synth, though. Eurorack is high quality but the entry costs are too high. 19:25:37 Basic concept is dirt cheap hardware, 3.3V compatibility, 19:26:21 dirt cheap retail hardware = total crap, pain, misery and project failure 19:33:05 Tony_Sidaway, random question, but have you ever done 6502 assembly? 19:34:07 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 19:35:12 MrMobius, I love the 6502 affection here on #forth even tho I wasnt fond of it in 'my day' :) 19:38:37 too primitive? 19:38:38 :P 19:39:54 no, not at all 19:40:04 I owned a rockwell aim65 19:40:31 I made thousands of atari commercial games 19:54:06 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 20:33:34 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 20:50:07 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 21:52:15 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 22:48:51 --- join: ryke joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.01.03