00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.01.01 00:11:42 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 01:27:15 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 01:28:12 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 01:55:55 --- join: smokeink joined #forth 02:20:50 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 03:56:01 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in) 04:57:29 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 04:58:08 --- quit: Kumool (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 05:24:05 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: Leaving) 05:28:44 --- join: Kumool joined #forth 05:47:16 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 05:50:11 --- quit: dddddd (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 05:50:41 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 05:55:37 --- quit: smokeink (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 07:55:04 --- join: learning joined #forth 07:56:53 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 08:40:23 --- quit: qweo (Quit: Leaving) 09:08:24 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 09:43:01 --- quit: learning (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 09:43:19 --- join: learning joined #forth 11:00:08 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 11:00:45 --- join: jedb joined #forth 11:26:33 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 12:07:00 --- quit: learning () 12:18:03 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 12:25:25 --- quit: jedb (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 12:27:55 --- join: jedb joined #forth 12:32:44 --- join: crab1 joined #forth 12:33:55 Happy New Year, forthers 12:39:48 Happy new year! 13:01:03 happy late new year Forthlings, it's the 2 Jan here :) 13:02:59 Santa brought us lots of wildfires for Xmas. Christmas in Australia is fires, ash, thick smoke and burnt homes these days, all considered, I'd rather have snow. :) 13:09:30 Wish I could send some of our rain your way, tpbsd 13:10:38 mtsd, we need a 'portal', but of course if one was invented, some tyrant would use it to send bombs insteadof water, foord or medicine ... 13:11:05 Yes, unfortunately 13:11:53 That is why people can not have good things 13:12:30 mtsd, I'm lucky where I am, we had about 2 months of thick smoke everyday, but have had clean air the last week after one day of rain, now the smoke seems to be building up again 13:13:46 but today I can't smell smoke, so I'm happy! 13:14:09 Hope things improve soon 13:16:13 they won't, it's going to be hard in australia until next winter because we have no consistent rain coming and the analysis is for less rain. All we will get is the rain that comes with lightning storms 13:16:42 we are used to it, it's not bothering me thesedays. 13:16:52 people get used to anything 13:28:46 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 13:32:26 Sounds very Sci-Fi 13:38:46 Unlike everything else in Australia? 13:42:21 crab1, looks very Armageddon if youre there. Check out https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6119145705001 13:44:56 it appears that in the stae I live in, New South Wales, 1300 homes have been burnt down so far 13:45:02 state 13:45:16 Ouch 13:46:10 and probably similar numbers of homes in the other 3 states nearby 13:48:01 The largest wildfire here ever was in 2014, with one fatality and 25 buildings destroyed or damaged. 13:48:08 So that's quite a different scale... 13:50:00 we had a sin 1983, Ash Wednesday was one of Australia's costliest natural disasters. More than 3,700 buildings were destroyed or damaged and 2,545 individuals and families lost their homes. 75 people lost their lives. 13:50:19 sin = similar fire 13:51:31 it was similar in that people had built their homes in bushland with lots of trees everywhere in a area that traditionally had lots of rain. Drought came and all the bush became dry, and one day caught fire 13:52:51 when I said that 1300 homes have been burnt, that number doesnt include other buildings such as sheds, garages etc 13:53:34 if all buildings are included as well as homes, I'm sure that the number is far higher already than the total in the Ash Wednesday fires 13:53:56 I watched the clip you posted. Apocalyptic scenes 13:54:42 sadly Australians dont learn 13:55:33 Black Saturday bushfires in 2009 were worse than the Ash Wednesday fires 26 years before 13:56:25 Buildings destroyed = 3,500+ (2,029 houses) and 173 people were killed 13:57:56 the fires this year (2019 - 2020) are far, far worse as they cover victoria, australian capitol territory, nsw and queensland 13:58:58 and for us, summer only started last month in December 2019, it's not over until around March 2020 14:00:43 mtsd, yeah, I fought bushfires for 15 years myself and Ive seen everything I thought, but when I saw some of the TV clips I was glad I wasn't there because nothing would stop the fires I saw on tv 14:12:08 --- quit: mtsd (Remote host closed the connection) 14:32:40 regarding the "black saturday" fires, A total of 173 people were confirmed to have died as a result of the fires. The figure was originally estimated at 14 on the night of 7 February, and steadily increased over the following two weeks to 210. 14:33:35 General statistics 14:33:36 164 people died in the fires themselves, 12 died later in hospital, and 4 died from other causes including car crashes 14:33:36 Out of the 173 deaths, 100 were male, 73 were female. 14:33:36 There were 164 Australians, 9 foreign nationals,[154] killed in the bushfires. 14:34:21 this is why I'm expecting the number of fatalities to be vastly higher by the end of this summer 2020 14:40:35 I lost customers in the Kinglake area where 120 people died in the "black saturday" fires https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Saturday_bushfires 14:44:55 the number of homes destroyed by the current fires in NSW alone has just been updated to 2000 14:45:48 https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6119148443001 14:52:26 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BmhHyyzh9o <-- hahahah swiss parking inspectors give star wars storm troopers a parking ticket 15:18:06 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 15:25:10 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 16:12:25 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 16:20:50 tpbsd 16:21:06 it seems like australia is barely fit for human inhabitation at this point 16:21:54 and it's largely us humans' fault thanks to our contribution to global warming 17:27:51 tabemann, i dont believe that humans have had any effect on the earth, plus we are in a ICE age, not a warming age 17:28:39 and Australia has been hard to live in in living memory 17:28:45 You don't believe humans have had ANY effect on the earth? 17:29:00 crab1, nothing significant 17:29:38 crab1, I do believe that we humans take ourselves too seriously 17:29:43 idk I would find that hard to believe 17:29:48 if it was true 17:30:05 well, this is absolutely my opinion ONLY 17:30:53 I know that, I'm saying if I saw some nonexistent proof that said that, I would probably remain skeptical 17:31:22 for instance, many people believe that the world is warming, yet ice cores dating back half a million years indicate that the earth is actually the coolest it has ever been over the last 4 ice ages 17:31:54 I think scepticism is the healthiest mental attitude always 17:31:59 I just think we humans are far too pervasive to have had no significant effect 17:32:09 I dont 17:32:21 I think we are insignificant 17:33:07 I believe the sun and the distance the sun is from earth are the most significant factors 17:33:31 I'm not specifically talking global warming 17:33:35 when it comes to 'global temperature' 17:33:56 I think that man has screwed up earth for men, absolutely 17:34:12 but I think that mans effect on the earth is insignificant 17:35:33 crab1, for instance, ice cores indicate that the earth is at the start of a ice age, and the proof of a ice age is very simple, ICE at the poles means the earth is in a ice age 17:36:07 no ice at the poles, and a sea level 25 metres higher than it is now, indicates *not a ice age* 17:36:20 --- quit: Kumool (Quit: EXIT) 17:37:11 I mean like converting 50% of a planet's land from the natural environment into farmland, either crop growing or grazing area, that just seems wild, that alone has gotta have an impact 17:37:24 especially on the populations of earth's inhabitants 17:38:16 oh I agree with you there 100% 17:38:39 I mean Idk if that alone would have any planetary effect though 17:38:59 or impact the global climate significantly 17:39:37 man affects all life on earth quite disastrously, but man is like a mite on the ass of a flea, on the ass of a elephant in terms of his effect on 'global warming' in my opinion 17:40:37 but lets not forget the Bubonic plague, that little virus had a massive effect on man also 17:41:07 or a single large meteor strike ? 17:42:00 I heard somewhere that a couple people die every year from the bubonic plague still 17:42:31 I think it's typical for man to believe himself so godlike that he actually believes he can affect this world 17:42:41 yeah, quite likely 17:43:07 the temperatures within recent years are greater than those ever recorded 17:43:15 no theyre not 17:43:43 that's just typical panic nonse 17:43:49 nonsense 17:44:25 in the 1900's Australia had days hotter than we have ever recorded since 17:44:40 "believes he can affect this world" well if we really WANTED to as a race, we wouldn't have any trouble 17:44:41 I don't mean any given day 17:45:18 I mean is that in the last ten years, five times the maximum global temperature recorded as been broken 17:45:39 tabeman, you only know what the global warmists have told you, youre not 100 years old, you cant remember 17:46:10 people have been recording temperatures since the 1800s at least 17:46:44 sure, the thermometer had already been around 300 years by the 1800's 17:47:37 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 17:47:38 and scientists have analysed ice and earth cores going back 1/2 million years and they now have a very clear understanding of the heat and cold cycles 17:48:14 crab1, using nuclear bombs you mean ? 17:48:46 the thing is that anthropogenic climate change is on a time scale of only decades 17:48:56 crab1, such actions would only eradicate humans I think, cockroaches and the Bubonic plague would probably survive 17:50:03 tabemann, I'll take core analysis going back 1/2 million years over any anthropogenic religions 17:50:37 tpbsd, hi. I just discovered eurorack, I learned how to solder. I think I'm going to use Forth to drive a revolution in free hardware, radically free software, modular synths. 17:50:57 Tony_Sidaway, awesome! 17:51:17 Tony_Sidaway, how do you know the Moog wasnt written in Forth ? 17:51:33 I've been writing a forth 17:51:39 and it's been angering me 17:51:54 crab1, oh oh, angerforth ! 17:53:15 I was gonna call it TurtleForth, but sure 17:53:52 apparently one already exists, but idgaf 17:54:34 There should be a seven deadly sins of Forth. Slothforth, Prideforth, Gluttonyforth and so on. 17:55:20 = make 7 bad forth implementations 17:55:49 hahahh 17:56:22 damn I have to leave for work in 5 17:56:28 Nobody would mind. Every good forther writes at least three really awful implementations of Forth. 17:56:53 7 though, 7 is a bit much, especially if it's intentional 17:56:56 yeah, three really awful implementations of Forth are mandatory 17:57:42 Well I gotta start with finishing ONE 17:57:42 crab1, condolences! 17:58:13 and fighting through the anger to find solutions that offer some clarity 17:58:18 anywho, 17:58:23 toodloo, fold 17:58:26 folks* 17:58:29 7 is truly epic. Only a Forth maestro would complete such a work. 17:58:44 another truism is that every new Forther thinks that he/she will write a killer Forth before they know anything about Forth 17:59:35 several years later they have learnt that ten thousand other programmers (at least) have felt the same way 18:00:23 I set my sights far lower, I only wanted to make a decent forth IDE in 2014 18:00:36 I'm on my third implementation of Forth 18:01:05 tabemann, and sometimes you even sound like you know what youre talking about! 18:01:16 my second is a decent one, but it's not portable to embedded 18:01:55 tabemann, there must be hundreds of PC forths around, none of them work on small embedded targets 18:02:20 some have been written that use gforth as a cross compiler for a small target 18:02:30 yeah 18:02:47 I've even thought of doing something like that with hashforth 18:02:54 but I havent found one that I could set up because they all have terrible doc 18:03:21 My first language was a kind of lisp. When I finally discovered Scheme (which is the purest form of Lisp, in the sense that it treats Lisp as a consistent expansion of Lambda calculus) 18:03:46 fact is, programmers write terrible docs in most cases 18:04:01 I realised I should have been paying a bit more attention to the literature. 18:04:11 tpbsd: yep 18:04:51 tabemann, and that ok, programmers should program, doc writers should write docs, technicians should technish 18:05:02 we all specialise 18:05:42 Tony_Sidaway, you mean you didnt 'RTFM' ? .... I'm shocked ! 18:05:47 ;-) 18:05:59 lol 18:06:23 the thing about my latest forth is that I'm writing it all the wrong way 18:06:33 I'll never understand why IDEs are a thing. One would think that a whole generation of programmers didn't know about make. 18:06:38 i.e. I'm writing the entire interpreter and runtime in assembly 18:07:45 Tony_Sidaway: when I program in Java at work, IDEs allow me to do things like control-click on an identifier and it will take me right to its definition 18:07:49 Tony_Sidaway, I'm not a programmer, and to me IDE means "integrated development environment" not "integrated development monolith" 18:08:31 Tony_Sidaway, my IDE uses a heap of OSS/GPL apps all working together 18:08:33 or I can set a breakpoint on a line just by clicking right in front of it 18:08:56 tabemann, Eclipse based ? 18:08:58 tpbsd, even worse than that . I read all the manuals, but I missed a revolution in theory that flew over the heads of most of us coders. 18:09:13 --- join: smokeink joined #forth 18:09:18 Tony_Sidaway, I'm glad to hear youre human like me :) 18:09:26 tpbsd: I've used Eclipse in the past, but currently I'm using Netbeans 18:09:46 I still don't get a lot of the Java "design patterns" shit 18:10:14 and thankfully my job does not require me to make use of them for the most part 18:10:32 tabemann, I only use VIM atm but I like Emacs also 18:10:46 My current environment is a soldering station. 18:11:13 tabemann, editors like eclipse just make me want to throw up, garish, packing far too much into one GUI (imho) 18:11:24 at home I use EMACS exclusively (except for writing comments in git, as git starts up nano and I haven't bothered to configure it to do so otherwise since last time my configuration got borked during an update) 18:11:40 hahahahm ferking GIT! 18:11:48 * tpbsd hates git* 18:12:08 I got the theremin working and now I want to use it as the basis of a modular analog synth. 18:12:33 I don't mind git, as it allows me to keep a full copy of the repository locally while having a full remote copy as well 18:12:42 Tony_Sidaway, awesome, a programmer who actually makes hardware is a very *rare* beast indeed! 18:12:43 I used SVN before that 18:12:51 tabemann, eww 18:13:05 tabemann, youre going from bad to worse! 18:13:44 tpbsd, it's all your fault. You may me hard-curious. 18:14:00 :) 18:14:09 happy new forth 18:14:52 Tony_Sidaway, I'm 65, I've heard it all before, no one who wasn't already drawn to the hardware side of the force can be persuaded! 18:15:07 happy new Forth to you phadthai ! 18:15:43 back 18:15:46 hey phadthai 18:16:04 tpbsd: well I used to use SVN (yuckh) 18:16:06 Tony_Sidaway, in a way, Forth without hardware is a perverted thing, not what the creator intended ;-) 18:16:34 If people start saying "May the Forth be with you" I'll just start giggling uncontrollably. 18:17:07 we should adopt that as our tagline 18:17:21 Tony_Sidaway, we are resisting the temptation on your behalf 18:18:40 besides, I never liked Star Wars, I'm a Treckie 18:19:30 my favorite saying is "I'm not from outer space, I just work there, I'm from Idaho" 18:20:57 damn I just finished watching "The Expanse" series 4, and it wasn't bad considering it's a resurrected by Amazon series 18:21:16 I'm researching how to build a cheap cabinet for a Eurorack synth. Thing is, I can do a lot of fun stuff switching signals around using op amps, dacs and microcontrollers. 18:21:54 Tony_Sidaway, oh yeah, the future for Forth and synths is *endless* ! 18:22:56 Tony_Sidaway, I'm pretty sure that field alone will take all your spare time between now and when you translate to study the great Forth in the Sky! 18:23:57 too bad I can't edit the topic 18:24:41 ... maybe not ;-) 18:25:01 Thing is, it gives me a common focus, tpbsd 18:25:18 Tony_Sidaway, and that a good thing I think 18:26:12 I've been tightly focused on electronics since the age of nine, I always knew what I was going to do 18:26:17 I still do 18:26:20 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 18:26:32 I want to implement retro on AVR, but having an actual product as my target will make it easier to do. 18:27:04 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 18:27:32 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 18:36:56 back 18:37:43 Tony_Sidaway, retro on a AVR ! 18:38:31 Tony_Sidaway, why build anything on such a obsolete platform as AVR ? 18:38:57 as a technician, Ive never like AVR 18:39:11 and thats because I have had to work with them 18:39:25 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 18:39:46 not that AVR is owned by Microchip, I bet their future is dodgy 18:39:52 not = now 18:40:37 tpbsd, I like AVR because it makes me work harder. 18:41:21 hahahah 18:41:42 Tony_Sidaway, in that case youll LOVE AVR and probably marry it 18:42:11 I fear that when I move to ARM I will miss the challenge. 18:47:06 I can assure you that fear is utterly misplaced 18:47:23 besides "amforth" owns the AVR Forth space 18:47:28 and has for a decade 18:48:20 not only that but AMFORTH has the best documentation Ive seen 18:48:48 if it was for cortex-m, I'd have been using that for a decade 18:49:18 Thing about Eurorack, CV, midi and whatnot: they're agnostic. 18:49:41 thats fine, so is Forth 18:50:02 actually, no one really knows what Forth is 18:50:10 not even Chuck Moore 18:50:36 but Chuck said that he knows it when he sees it 19:04:31 --- join: jedb_ joined #forth 19:05:37 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 19:07:01 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 19:08:23 --- join: jedb__ joined #forth 19:10:49 --- quit: jedb_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 19:12:26 --- nick: jedb__ -> jedb\ 19:12:30 --- nick: jedb\ -> jedb 19:19:05 --- quit: dddddd (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 19:21:16 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 19:35:29 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 19:41:07 hey 19:57:50 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 20:06:20 Tony_Sidaway: Re: 7 forth's; I've written that many different implementations over the years (two ancient unnamed ones for dos, retro/x86, retro10+11, retro12, parable, and an unreleased one intended for running inside the Linux kernel (now long out date). 20:10:06 crc, so how many Forths would one write on average before arriving at a comfortable Forth state of mind in your opinion ? 20:10:36 There were also offshoots of many of these, mainly around retro/x86, which formed the basis or major influence of a few others (reva, giref, glypher, freeforth) 20:12:04 tpbsd: It took me four attempts to really get into how things work and to become really comfortable with the stack; but I had a lot of bad habits to unlearn 20:12:54 I can't say that's typical though; just my experience 20:13:06 crc, thanks, I appreciate your comments on this 20:13:59 I'm guessing that unlearning bad habits would be a thing for many including myself 20:14:50 where I have no pre-learned bad habits, that space is pre-filled with ignorance so I have challenges anyway 20:16:00 it wasn't until Retro10/11 (~2007-2008) that I started using forth as my first choice language for most things 20:19:15 crc, I observed that when you used retro to solve our recent ice age flood depths debate! 20:19:43 that alone gave me a insight into why retro is so popular here 20:20:54 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 20:20:55 I admit I have two Mecrisp-Stellaris boards permanently connected to this machine and use them for all the things I used to use "BC" or a calculator for 20:21:23 I've been wondering for a while why I ever used 'normal' calculators 20:21:47 Happy 2020 Forthwrights! 20:22:03 Forth offers so many solutions! 20:22:20 happy Forthmas Zen Forth Guru! 20:22:49 likewise Forth Master Techician (tm)! 20:23:05 * Technician 20:23:26 tpbsd, did you ever use any of the RPN calculators? 20:24:32 MrMobius, no, I really wanted a HP35 but lacked the several hundred dollars one cost. This is probably the biggest life goal I have missed out on 20:25:11 I still have two HPs, one from 1982. Love my HP calcs. 20:25:32 MrMobius, it does however rate fairly low in my list of major life goals that have all been reached :) 20:25:51 rdrop-exit, oh yeah, I was in lust with the HP buttons 20:26:56 I had to settle for souless, plasticky Ti buttons in the end, but my Ti mag strip calculator was still quite awesome, nothing like the HP one tho 20:28:06 I've never seen another calculator where you could change the word size, I was thrilled when I bought (at Macy's in San Francisco, when calculators still had their own department). 20:28:24 besides back in 1975 I would have hated RPN, so who knows ? 20:29:25 a $10 stm32Fxx running Mecrisp-Stellaris does all my maths now, it's a programmable RPN Forth calculating machine :) 20:29:30 I used to have an HP12C, but it was stolen years ago :( 20:29:39 The keys on the Voyager series were heavenly. 20:29:53 I have a HP-16C and a HP-48GX 20:29:58 32 bits with 64bit fixed point maths, I've died and gone to maths heaven 20:30:20 crc, the thief will have eons of bad Karma for that! 20:30:46 The HP-16C was the only calculator specifically designed for computer engineering 20:30:56 there is no argument, HP calculator keys were the best in existence 20:31:20 sadly HP is pretty ordinary now 20:32:13 tho I still do have and use a HP digital storage scope (circa 1994) that I paid $4600 for back then 20:32:32 it sits within arms reach of this keyboard 20:32:37 cool! 20:33:40 it's only 2 megasamples per second which you'd think is unusable compared to $1000 Rigol scopes with 2 gigasamples/second but as usual, bigger numbers don't always means better 20:34:47 I have a cool RS232 downloader that uses unix utils to build a waveform file which fits right into my documents 20:35:11 Up until the late 80s early 90s, HP still meant very high quality 20:35:55 absolutely 20:36:32 well I bought a HP DSO in 1994 instead of a Teektronix one as the HP was cheaper and better 20:36:45 I took out a loan over 6 months to buy it 20:37:25 and it's stilla utter pleasure to use 20:37:41 Wozniak sold his HP-65 for $500 to fund the Apple I 20:39:20 and jobs really benefited ? 20:40:36 when I sell all my gear around next October, I'm keeping the HP in a storage box, I could never sell it now 20:41:27 Job sold his VW bus, probably for less than the HP-65 20:41:52 it was only a VW! 20:42:02 Im going to hate selling my Audi! 20:45:29 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 20:54:23 RISC-V insrution encoding is slightly funky but relatively trivial to assemble 20:55:31 I haven't gotten to the section on the compressed ISA variant yet though 20:57:19 I havent flashed the compressed ISA variant of Mecrisp-Quintus yet either 20:57:19 Similar but simpler than MIPS 20:57:23 --- join: jedb_ joined #forth 20:57:39 ill have one non compressed and one compressed for comparisons 20:59:28 But IIRC your chip doesn't support the compressed variant 20:59:42 yeah it does 21:00:03 and the latest Mecrisp-Quintus is written in the compressed variant 21:00:16 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 21:00:35 oh cool, ah yes my bad, RV32IMAC (32GPRs), the C is for compressed 21:00:47 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 21:00:48 the non compressed binary is 28.8kB, the compressed is 18kB ! 21:00:56 cool! 21:01:17 thats a 30% binary reduction for the same thing! 21:02:18 but it has it's pros and cons, for instance I can compile the non compressed version with FreeBSD tools, but as yet I have nothing that will build the compressed version 21:02:41 I dont even have anything on the latest Linux 21:03:08 but I'm guessing that will change soon 21:03:53 RISC-V is only a curio for me at this time, I'd never use it in a production job 21:04:00 even tho I loke it a lot 21:04:03 like 21:05:56 Mecrisp-Quintus doesn't have a resident assembler for RISC-V? 21:08:17 no mecrisp-* has a resident assembler 21:08:30 they all use OSS assemblers 21:08:51 well, mecrisp-across has it's own cross assembler written in Forth 21:09:14 but it's a tethered Forth and you dont know anything about them yet, theyre new ;-) 21:09:58 They've been around since the early 80's at least ;) 21:11:07 But even non-tethered Forths traditionally have a resident inline assembler 21:11:36 ok you got me! 21:11:46 This is the Forth Way 21:12:06 they all have a resident compiler 21:12:17 from Forth to machine code 21:12:29 there is no assembly intermediate stage 21:12:51 Mecrisp-Stellaris cuts out the middleman 21:13:02 I use a HP-48 app on Android. The implementation is frighteningly comprehensive, but I seldom need a calculator so I never use the many advanced features. 21:13:34 Tony_Sidaway, I understand because I use my hardware Forth for all calculation duties 21:13:52 What middleman? 21:14:08 it's become a all purpose tool to me like retro has for CRC 21:14:18 rdrop-exit, assembly language 21:15:29 Tony_Sidaway, if I need graphine etc, I just get the serial terminal to capture the Forth generated data and file it, then a script will use a GNU program to process the data on the pc 21:15:38 doesn't seem like it since you have to rely on an external OSS assembler 21:15:39 graphine = graphing 21:16:06 rdrop-exit, no I dont. Mecrisp-Stellaris is totally stand alone 21:16:49 rdrop-exit, I only need a assembler to build Mecrisp-Stellaris, after that I never need it again 21:20:47 I'm struggling to remember the last time I felt the need to produce anything graphical. I think it was a web app that needed a GNU graphics thing (gnuplot?) to draw something. I think the app was probably in Scheme 21:21:35 i use graphing on a regular basis, I'm about to do anoteher graph tomorrow 21:22:06 this was my last one:https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/project.3temp.sensors.html?highlight=temperature#software-flowchart 21:22:26 i dont know if it will displat on a smartphone 21:22:53 Tony_Sidaway, I'm curious why you dont use a PC and a larger screen instead of a smartphone ? 21:24:57 Most of my thoughts are fairly abstract. That document displays perfectly on my cheap mobile phone, but it's way more complex than anything I bother with nowadays. 21:25:45 I'm 65 so my eyes refuse to look at a monitor under 24" thesedays 21:26:04 if I had to use a cellphone, I'd stop development totaly 21:27:08 the graph is fairly complete and I require something like that before I even think about coding. After I have my flowchart coding is just grunt work 21:27:49 tp, so if I understand correctly Mecrisp uses an external assembler in lieu of metacompilation. I get that, but doesn't it support inline assembly for when you want to custom code words, i.e. Forth's CODE ... END-CODE construct? 21:27:49 I'm 63 but as I've outlined before I'm extremely myopic, so for instance right now I'm lying in bed with the phone screen about 15cm from my face and swiping the text with a finger. 21:28:14 ahh! 21:28:21 youre just a young-un! 21:28:40 I'm about 2' from my monitor 21:29:41 and I have 46 virtual desktops all in use 21:29:53 It's actually more difficult for me to resolve images on a larger screen nowadays, because nowadays my presbyopia makes it harder for me to resolve images so close. 21:31:18 Im sorry to hear it, hence your mobile requirement 21:31:36 I used to have a much larger range of corrected vision but the hardening of my eyes' lenses has made things more complex. 21:31:52 no interest in getting new lenses ? 21:32:37 Ive had both mine replaced under our Australian Medicare system as they were both rock hard and yellowed 21:32:52 i couldnt see out of the left one 2 years ago 21:32:52 I can either correct and have trouble when very close stuff, or go uncorrected and do everything on mobile. 21:33:25 I have one "long focus" lens and one "short focus" lens now 21:33:48 My eyes are really good. I regard the myopia as something of a superpower. 21:33:54 usually they do both "long focus" 21:34:01 ahh :) and why not! 21:34:20 I use 3 pairs of glasses, long, medium, up-close. 21:35:48 I mow only suffer in the "medium range" 21:36:09 but close up is my most important focus for obvious tech reasons 21:36:54 I have good contact lenses. At the suggestion of my optometrist I use one lens for relatively close focus and the other one for distance vision. My glasses are varifocals, but I often find myself just holding reading matter very close and peering over the top. 21:37:57 When I wear the lenses I just hold reading matter at arm's length and feel like an old person. 21:38:03 why not? man if anything is incredibly versatile 21:41:51 My eyes are one reason I prefer old-fashioned TUIs over GUIs for development. 21:42:18 My wife gave up her lenses decades ago. I recently went back to lenses because looking after a sometimes quite violent autistic family member makes the frames vulnerable. The distance vision is also quite stunning. 21:42:49 Tony_Sidaway, life is a challenge! 21:43:07 rdrop-exit, I use TUI's and GUI's together 21:44:13 I just don't understand why anybody would willingly use a gui for development. I think in words, mostly. 21:45:14 My terminal preferences are set to 80x24 21:45:53 xterm-16color 21:47:57 Western ASCII 21:48:15 Using the Arduino GUI, it's not that it's bad, just that there are lots of menus. My Makefiles to do the very same thing are much easier. Life doesn't get any simpler than typing "make" and letting it do its thing. 21:48:41 agreed, my IDE is built around makefiles 21:48:57 and there is no java :) 21:49:56 ow you guys do sound like full on programmers, because trust me, when it comes to drawing schematics, it's GUI or nothing 21:50:36 no one who ever laid out a schematic or a PCB ever failed to understand the importance of graphics 21:52:04 I'm a software guy. I imagine the next stage in my hard-curious journey may take my into graphical regions I haven't explored in a decade or so. 21:52:20 I believe it may :) 21:53:50 in some areas such as architecture, the old ways of 3d CAD such as Autocad are dying off, being replaced by object coding 21:54:32 much like openScad, but expensive closed source versions 21:54:35 Designing my own PCBs will take me into "here be dragons" territory, well into terra incognita. As Umberto Eco puts it: finis Africae. 21:55:19 Tony_Sidaway, and you'll have to examine beliefs such as "I just don't understand why anybody would willingly use a gui for development". It should be good fun :) 21:55:44 at least you may come to some understanding why 21:57:17 I meant software development, which is basically about creating a hierarchical structure. Hardware is going to go that way eventually, but not yet. 21:57:19 I still have a digitizer with puck in a closet somewhere from my GIS/CAD/AMFM days 21:59:14 Tony_Sidaway, I'm sure that in some very advanced areas such as IC fabrication it already has 21:59:34 One thing that's always annoyed me about HTML is the way a structured representation of content got hijacked for the purposes of presentation. 22:00:05 rdrop-exit, I have a digitiser with pen that works really well for freehand drawings 22:00:57 Mine's has to be over 25 years, useless for anything but anchoring fishing boats 22:01:15 It's as if somebody looked at K&R's C reference and decided it needed ten extra chapters on how to make a C program look pretty on the page. 22:01:54 It has one of those pucks with the cross-hairs, which I always liked, comes with a pen too, but I never used the pen 22:01:59 Tony_Sidaway, K&R's C reference was probably written in LaTeX 22:02:21 Doubtful, probably troff 22:02:28 (at least originally) 22:02:52 C is complex enough without idiots climbing all over it and adding presentation features. 22:03:24 C will never look pretty 22:03:42 rdrop-exit, yes, LATeX was mid-eighties. What a nightmare. 22:04:44 Ironically, LATeX was an attempt to add structural depth to TeX. 22:04:55 I'm using LaTeX right now to document my next Forth 22:05:57 I like it, although figures can be tiring to implement 22:07:03 I haven't touched the new docs in about a month, I'll probably need to relearn a lot just to get back to where I left off 22:07:47 My brain's RAM isn't what it used to be 22:08:16 well LaTeX is just a macro system for TeX 22:08:44 --- join: ryke joined #forth 22:09:27 LaTeX is easy enough, I have made Tex class files for it, and it is still the only sensible choice for academic literature today 22:09:39 C is so old that I suspect the original galley proofs were laboriously typeset from mark-up based on a text transcribed using an IBM golfball typewriter. Troff may have been involved in the early stages, but the printing establishment hadn't yet adopted word processing. 22:10:30 There's a lot to learn to use it well, so many packages, templates, etc... 22:11:03 Tony_Sidaway, good point 22:11:07 The first edition, published February 22, 1978, was the first widely available book on the C programming language. Its version of C is sometimes termed K&R C 22:11:57 Yeah. Presentation layers are complex. So much clutter that has no bearing on the content. 22:12:56 I have the Elements of Programming Style 2nd ed, Kernigan & Plauger, 22:13:02 TeX82, a new version of TeX which is rewritten from scratch, was published in 1982. 22:13:32 Tony_Sidaway, remind me never to argue with you on these matters :) 22:14:15 I'll stick to arguing about hardware around you guys :) 22:14:40 (c) 1978, 1974 "This book was set in Times Roman and Courier 12 by the authors, using a Graphic Systems phototypesetter driven by a PDP11/70 running under the UNIX operating system." 22:15:41 WTG unix :) 22:16:09 point made and proven, it wasnt Tex or LaTeX 22:16:10 :) 22:17:16 Better than having Gladys type it up on a Selectric and sending it to the printers, though. 22:19:47 --- join: jedb__ joined #forth 22:20:07 --- nick: jedb__ -> jedb 22:20:22 Reminds of that scene in Mad Men where Christina Hendricks shows off the Selectric Typewriter 22:21:57 rdrop-exit, loved Kernigan and Plauger. Unix was not around much even in academia when I read it in 1981. 22:22:02 hahah, poor overworked Gladys 22:22:31 --- quit: jedb_ (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 22:22:41 I remember when the IBM Selectric Typewriter was the one to have 22:23:00 when we still had Secretarial Pools 22:23:57 a lot has changed 22:24:30 flat earthers now proudly exist, except in the astronaut corps 22:24:49 men can't remember how they walked on the moon 22:24:56 But the concept of the software tool, and particularly the pipe, stuck with me. I recall my personal VAX/VMS toolkit, contained a number of different tools and a piping tool to link them together. 22:24:58 long ago 22:25:04 I think I still have Software Tools on a shelf somewhere 22:26:17 I think the pipe was the breakthrough innovation of Unix 22:27:22 Doug McIlroy's innovation 22:34:09 Remember this: https://youtu.be/jinGW7ZDGPM 22:38:29 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Quit: Tony_Sidaway) 23:05:37 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 23:07:12 --- quit: smokeink (Remote host closed the connection) 23:08:03 --- join: smokeink joined #forth 23:13:37 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 23:23:11 --- join: dys joined #forth 23:38:57 Happy new years and such other pleasantries peopels 23:39:05 peoplsle 23:39:08 peoples even 23:39:24 happy Forthmas sheephugger ! 23:40:26 Get outta year ya blocked nose squeaky bastard :P 23:40:53 it's only blocked with thick smoke! 23:41:19 Is that shit _still_ going on ? 23:41:25 you should be receiving your donation of genuine Australian smoke soon! 23:41:32 it's worse than ever atm 23:41:36 Wtf 23:41:42 Stupid ass fires 23:41:54 https://www.skynews.com.au/ 23:42:02 navy called out 23:42:22 Fucks sake. 23:42:35 I guess thats what happens when you try to divide something by zero in real life 23:42:38 I estimate that by next winter 300+ will have died by fire directly and thousands injured 23:42:54 yeah, div by zero never works well, it failed the Romans 23:42:54 300+? Fuck 23:43:10 Surely people must be super wise to all that shit by now 23:43:24 hahahah, you really think that ? 23:43:37 Well surely 23:43:42 people do the opposite to what you think 23:43:47 Like 'oh shit, the countryside seems to be on fire' 23:44:02 our ash wednesday fires killed 78 people 26 years ago 23:44:18 Auzzie. Not even 29 times. 23:44:21 then in 2006, 178 were killed in the same circumstances 23:44:31 Damn 23:44:33 How? 23:44:42 now in 2020 it will be 300+ by my calculations 23:44:45 Just 'nah it wont reach us, im going to sleep.' ? 23:44:51 human nature I guess, we dont learn 23:44:55 worse' 23:45:03 how can it be worse 23:45:16 Running INTO the fire or something fucked up ? 23:45:22 we now have the left with their greenie idology at work the last decade+ 23:45:33 Oh well no great loss then 23:45:52 except it's killed hundreds of non lefties 23:46:08 How though 23:46:11 how does this happen 23:46:17 they have managed to get preventative burning stopped the last decade 23:46:36 'it endangers the red nosed mouseicoot' etc 23:46:38 Sounds like california 23:46:41 yep 23:47:16 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 23:47:48 so instead of endangering animals like Koalas etc, the laws they managed to get passed have now wiped out whole populations of koalas and killed many people 23:48:20 Stupidity knows no bounds 23:48:32 But I mean, what are the mechnisims by which people are dieing 23:48:37 --- quit: proteus-guy (Excess Flood) 23:48:54 Do they just not give a fuck about the wall of flame approaching them, and just stay put ? 23:48:56 Or what? 23:49:02 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 23:49:08 in 2006 a land owner burnt off around his house because of fire risk and was fined $1500 by the left run council for breaking burning off laws. Fire came thru the town months later and his house was the *only* one not burnt to the ground 23:50:27 they die because the fire cuts electricity and communications and the flame front hits their house travelling at 100kph and the 2000 degrees C simpley explodes the house and the people inside 23:51:12 100kph? 23:51:30 our fires are like tornadoes when it's 45 degrees outside and the wind is 100kph 23:51:31 Fuck thats some nasty stuff 23:51:56 yeah, the heat from the fire causes local winds unique to the fire 23:52:07 Madness 23:52:26 I was a bush fire fighter for 15 years, Ive raced it in a vehicle at 110 kph and couldnt get in front 23:52:39 it's amazing to see 23:52:57 trees 25m in front of the flames just explode into flames 23:53:10 and the fire seems to jump 25m at a time 23:53:16 tpbsd, wow 23:53:26 the heat is unimaginable 23:53:55 so is the sound, it sounds like a X-class locomotive or 10 23:54:06 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 23:54:35 people who don't know what it's like and decide to stay and 'fight the fire' shit themselves when they see and hear it 23:54:46 Some stupid bitch the other day was going on about how fire fighters were likely to go home and beat their wives 23:55:05 Well I cant blame them, fuck that shit 23:55:06 Ive had fellow firefighters desert their posts from fear 23:55:11 Thats scary 23:55:17 Yeah well 23:55:26 Ive never deserted mine 23:55:43 idiots saying idiotic things 23:55:45 What is a post 23:55:58 in front of the fire with a fire hose 23:56:16 the fire is in front, the vehicle behind 23:56:20 How do you know if you can take the fire, vs it running you over ? 23:56:39 experience I guess 23:56:56 plus Im too stupid to be scared 23:57:01 lol 23:57:14 I always supplied myself with the right gear 23:57:26 that's 90% of the battle 23:57:47 I remember taking IDF and running out in my undies and armour, to the bunker, and everyone was just lying around causually on the ground 23:57:59 Then there was a massive hit like 100 meters away after I got in 23:58:15 People can get blaze 23:58:19 a full lexan face mask (army gas mask) with a filter, full body covered fireproof clothing, gloves etc 23:58:58 yeah, I've seen my clothing smoking from the heat 23:59:18 i did it for 15 years, thats a lot of experience 23:59:26 So fire is hot then? 23:59:31 hahahaah 23:59:42 dude, 2000 C at the flame front 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.01.01