00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.12.28 00:08:34 --- quit: jedb (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 00:09:10 --- join: jedb joined #forth 00:39:58 --- join: smokeink joined #forth 01:50:26 --- join: f-a joined #forth 01:51:37 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 02:07:33 --- join: jedb_ joined #forth 02:10:31 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 02:22:25 --- quit: f-a (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03:49:10 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 03:53:47 --- nick: tp -> tpbsd 04:49:33 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 05:10:00 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in) 05:49:18 --- quit: smokeink (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 07:12:37 --- nick: Keshl__ -> Keshl 08:06:10 --- join: ryke joined #forth 09:15:38 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 09:25:09 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 09:32:44 --- quit: cantstanya (Remote host closed the connection) 09:35:07 --- join: cantstanya joined #forth 10:04:57 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 10:21:37 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 12:17:09 hey guys 12:22:26 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 12:34:29 --- join: X-Scale joined #forth 12:46:42 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 12:46:56 ey oh! 12:48:54 Gonna build a Gaudi OpenTheremin V3 so I'll probably be mucking around with making the hardware do things in Forth on the Arduino Uno. 12:52:17 Where following tp's principle, Forth=Threaded interpreter plus native machine code. Because I don't want to mess around any more writing C and hoping it ports/optimises. But mainly because I need to get outside my comfort zone. 12:55:13 Does anybody else here have familiarity with Gaudi's projects or Arduino theremin code in general? 12:55:19 http://www.gaudi.ch/GaudiLabs/?page_id=19 12:57:35 I know you can make a theremin-like app that uses the sensors of an Android/iOS device. This is a different thing. Heterodyne oscillators driven by a microcontroller. 13:28:47 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 13:32:36 I've been encouraging my daughter to play with the robot I got her for Christmas - and she'll play for it some each day, then get bored, then play with it some more the nex tday 13:32:58 What kind of robot is that? 13:34:35 I dug out one of these cheap 3-wheeled robot cars I got a few years back, and thought I'd introduce my daughter (who's almost 5) to it. Now I just need to hook it up to the FPGA Forth system I'm playing with... 13:34:56 Wonder Workshop - it's aimed at kids 11-16 (my daughter is about to turn 11), and can be programmed in "Blocks" and JavaScript 13:35:18 (and also wire up some wireless + power circuits) 13:35:21 my daughter right now wants to program it in "Blocks" but at some point I'd like to get her to program it in JavaScript 13:36:00 The best robot your can introduce to your child at this point is the internet. Kids must be told clearly that the internet is essentially a robotic environment. It took me a couple of decades to realise that it was programming me, much more than the reverse. 13:36:29 this robot is controlled via Bluetooth and powered via a built-in Li-ion battery 13:36:43 Tony_Sidaway: she knows the internet as youtube, currently. Need to do something to change that. 13:37:08 my daughter's main usage of teh Interwebs is Youtube 13:37:46 tabemann, my kids grew up in the 1990s. They were so lucky. 13:38:30 I remember the Interwebs before things like Google and Facebook and like took over (I grew up in the 90's myself) 13:38:30 * Robert grew up in the 90s with computers from the 80s 13:38:45 My daughter, in her thirties now, still often finds YouTube recommendations too much to take. 13:39:51 my first computer was an Apple //e, then I used a Mac IIsi, then a PowerMac which I installed LinuxPPC on, then I PC I built myself which ran Linux 13:40:21 *a PC 13:40:53 I know how to avoid the crap, but it involves a level of insight and discipline my autistic daughter can't muster. 13:44:16 I had an Apple II in 1981. My favourite 1980s computer, though, was the Amiga 500. I still have an Amiga 1200 in bits in my bedroom. 13:45:39 amiga! 13:46:19 i had my amiga till ~1998 ... i resisted changing to ibm pc 13:46:27 then i caves 13:46:29 caved 13:47:23 The Amiga 500 was great. 13:48:22 best bits of unix and mac mixed together 13:48:53 I also had a Commodore 128D, which was a strange beast. 13:49:09 But never owned any Apple computer. 13:49:11 Built a PC in 1995. First came the name (Gandalf). I walked with my 9-year-old son to pick up a good Iiyama monitor (we called it "Gandalf's head.") We brought it back home in a taxi. Then over the next few weeks he and I put the computer together. 13:49:29 Nice 13:55:29 We were in London at the time and the best place to get a decent motherboard was Southall. It's called "Little India", and the local railway station is signed in both English and Punjabi, which I think is unique. 13:56:20 back 14:01:30 Being a parent is great. At one point your child does better then you ever did, and you feel so happy to have passed on the baton. It's all crap of course, my autistic daughter is amazing too even though she is plagued by anxiety and doubt. It's all good, though. 14:02:16 Tony_Sidaway, a Theremin! 14:02:52 I feel really happy watching my daughter play with the robot without my having to guide her at all 14:02:55 tpbsd, yes! Isn't that brilliant! 14:03:40 tabemann, I think you're a great parent. 14:03:43 like today she was working a program to guide the robot to drive around the house 14:04:09 Tony_Sidaway, I watched a most mesmerizing utube video of a orchestra playing the theme from "once upon a time in the west" and the female vocal was replaced by a Theremin ... it was just awesome and left me with a whole new appreciation of that instrument 14:04:27 she got so far as getting it to drive to one of the doors of one of the bedrooms, she plans on driving further tomorrow 14:06:20 tabemann, superlative parenting powers detected. 14:07:53 tabemann, sounds like didn't build a massive obsession for the robot in your daughter first 14:08:29 I built a massive obsession in one of my daughters to learn to read 25 words when she was 4 14:09:04 in the end her obsession for it drove me crazy, so thats the downside 14:09:59 tpbsd: the idea for the robot came from that one day she was really excited about creating an "app" as they call it these days in code.org, and this can be programmed very similarly to code.org (both in blocks and in JavaScript), so I figured she might enjoy making a robot do stuff 14:10:14 but she could read 25 words at 4 years old, wether it affected her becoming dux of her class every year, straight A's in every subject and a architect I can't say :) 14:10:56 --- join: Tony_Sidaway_ joined #forth 14:11:19 tabemann, I learnt the technique from a mother and it really works, I think a parent could generate a obsession in any child this way 14:12:15 but the key is to make sure that the child only has limited time with the 'thing' 14:12:27 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 14:13:09 you have to know when the child will be bored with the 'thing' and take it away from them at least 50% before they get bored 14:13:20 tpbsd, I think I know the performance you refer to. That thereminist combines a prior voice track with an extraordinary live performance on her instrument. 14:13:32 you must *never* let them get bored with it 14:13:51 oh then I have to only let my daughter play with the robot for short periods of time 14:14:23 tabemann, yes, but if she has been bored once already it mat be too late 14:14:33 like today she played with the robot for a good while, then basically said she was at a good stopping point would do more stuff (drive through more of the house) tomorrow 14:14:56 *and would do 14:14:58 tabemann, the initial "build up" is also critical 14:15:35 tabemann, you will have to lie to her to make the time shorter than she wants 14:16:02 you can't just take it from her without a 'valid' reason 14:16:58 the only valid reason, though, is either my daughter has to do something (e.g. play her clarinet or read a book) for school, we're now going to eat or do something as a family, or the thing has run out of power 14:17:14 tabemann, can you program the robot to pretend it's battery is flat after a certain time ? 14:17:35 tabemann, ahh, you already have the idea :) 14:17:37 tpbsd: lol - the robot's internals aren't documented 14:18:18 my daughter's real problem is that she likes youtube too much 14:18:25 if she is still very interested then maybe it's not too late 14:18:31 and she always wants to go badk to youtbe 14:18:47 oh, my daughter is definitely interested 14:19:06 like today she had the measuring tape out to measure distances for the robot to go around parts of the house 14:19:10 hmm, life was simpler when I was playing 'the reading game' with my daughter back in the early 80's 14:19:22 no Internet 14:19:41 how old is she ? 14:19:55 almost 11 14:20:27 oh, shes very old to create a obsession! 14:20:41 and at 11 probably smarter than me! 14:21:08 and you! 14:21:43 you have one advantage left however, as her father, your word is like god to her 14:21:52 I first got obsessed with computing at 8 14:22:01 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 14:22:19 and no one needed to encourage me beyond the initial contact with programming 14:22:23 so if you give a reasonable reason the time has to be cut short, she won't normally have a reason to doubt you 14:22:46 tabemann, I was the same with electronics, probably age 9 14:22:53 the thing is she'll be like "okay, time to go back to youtube" 14:23:00 ahh 14:23:28 I'm trying to get her to do things with computer that don't involve youtube 14:23:34 i dunno if utube is a good thing, I know I have learnt a lot from it and also wasted a lot of time on it 14:23:38 *her computer 14:24:01 I think thats a good plan 14:24:18 cut down the passive activity watching utube 14:24:33 and increase the activity of doing things, solving problems 14:24:51 that's what I've been trying to do with the robot 14:26:00 and sounds like it's working 14:26:47 I never became bored with electronics, but I found it myself, my parents actually tried to discourage me from it 14:28:21 tabemann, thats a real challenge, working out how to limit Internet time to a smart child 14:29:20 I tried that once with my oldest son when he was a teenager but he found some way past my cronjob that firewalled him after 7pm each night 14:29:22 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 14:29:43 and of course he didnt tell me until a decade later 14:31:16 back 14:32:05 tabemann, have you seen the Forth 'battle robots' game ? 14:32:49 it's software only and you battle by writing Forth programs that control the robot 14:33:15 kids love playing computer games, especially against parents 14:34:03 I guess you could offer more interesting and challenging alternatives to youtube ? 14:34:27 That sounds interesting 14:34:48 and finally, if she is like my youngest daughter, you could tell her to only view utube for 1/2 hr a day and she would 14:34:52 Do you have a link? 14:38:55 Robert, I don't and I'm dismayed to see that my FreeBSD repo doesnt have it 14:39:01 Aw 14:39:05 it was during my Linux years 14:39:26 I can look around, or hack something together if needed I guess. 14:39:53 Looking for a way to introduce a bit of coding 14:41:26 http://realtimebattle.sourceforge.net/ 14:41:43 that one has possibilities ? 14:42:03 Robert, what age is the child ? 14:46:29 Robert, this is the one I was thinking of, it's not forth, it's assembly! 14:46:31 http://www.corewars.org/ 14:46:45 back 14:46:56 :#psearch corewars 14:46:57 games/cre Corewars Redcode Evolver 14:46:57 games/species Corewars evolver - generates warriors using genetic algorithms 14:47:31 Robert, and it couldnt have been Forth because I had no clue about Forth back then, only assembly and C 14:48:34 tabemann, it's possible you may interest her in something like corewars ? 14:48:41 Ah, well, she's almost 5 but perhaps a bit too young for assembly language corewars 14:48:46 tabemann, especially if she is playing against you 14:49:07 I was thinking something more like 10 FORWARD TURN TURN 20 FORWARD 14:49:10 Robert, a perfect age to start a obsession however! 14:49:26 She goes through a new set of obsessions every couple of weeks. 14:49:50 let me explain the process which I know works as I used it on my smartest child 14:49:51 Cue is like that - it's about doing things, and reacting to stimuli 14:50:22 * tabemann didn't need anyone to get him obsessed as a kid 14:50:44 the parent controls the obsession like this. First the parent builds up the hype, tells the child that they have 'something very special' for them 14:50:54 * tpbsd didnt either 14:51:16 naturally the child will ask 'where is it ??" 14:52:00 this is where the parent has to be creative and for 2 weeks finds every possible excuse NOT to provide the 'thing' 14:52:09 this stage is CRITICAL 14:52:59 the problem in my case is that if I tried that, she'd go "oh well" and watch youtube 14:53:06 Mine was 'the reading game' 14:53:30 building up the hype is critical 14:54:10 and the 2 week delay causes it to build and build in the child 14:54:43 see, I doubt that'd work in a somewhat older kid like mine 14:55:07 Id "forget to bring it home" after work, or the room it was in at work was locked by security, or any excuse I could think of 14:55:32 yeah, thats why I said earlier it may be too late in her case 14:55:56 what I've been doing is to keep on encouraging her to play with the robot, but once she is playing with it step aside and let her discover everything on her own 14:56:04 at the end of two weeks she was literally foaming at the mouth and would hassle me every day when I got home 14:57:05 stage two is show it to the child but cut it really short, find any excuse to take it away early long before the child is bored 14:57:05 like tomorrow I'll remind her that she wanted to drive through more of the house 14:57:41 did you need reminding that it was xmas/birthday tomorrow when you were a kid ? 14:58:01 when kid has a obsession it's all tehy think about 14:58:16 and she was like that with the 'reading game' 14:58:53 I grew to hate that game because Id arrive home after work each day and it was 'dad ... dad, can we play the reading game please!!!!!!" 14:59:11 lol 14:59:31 when she had finished the game she could read 25 words at age 4 15:00:09 or maybe 3, I cant recall 15:00:21 in this case, the problem is that she needs coaxing to get away from youtube; she'll definitely do other things, but she needs that push 15:00:58 but shes a genius, leads a team of architects for a large french firm in Melbourne 15:01:25 yeah, the instant gratification of youtube is a plague 15:01:36 needs to be tightly limited 15:02:22 my daughter would have limited herself to any time online at my request tho, if she had had the internet, maybe yours will too ? 15:04:06 just explain that you have determined that she should only connect to the net for X time per day and it's important 15:04:43 it's would be far better if she consented willingly and self policed 15:05:11 back 15:05:12 smart daughters listen to their dads 15:06:00 mine has always listened to me, it never ceases to amaze me 15:06:49 listening is not one of my daughter's great spots - we give her an allowance, but prefer that she doesn't just spend it frivolously - but she'll find anything and be like "but it's my money so I can spend it like I want" - she doesn't have the idea of saving money yet 15:08:02 she'll only save money if there's something in particular she plans on spending it on or for in the future, like spending it on a family vacation 15:08:07 my other kids dont listen to me, just this one 15:09:01 I have 2 daughters, the one above always listened to me, shes 38 years old now 15:09:38 her older sister never listened to me and shes 41 now, her life is chaotic, always broke, always unhappy 15:10:22 the youngest daughter just bought her own apartment in centeral Melbourne 15:10:47 so some listen, some dont, most havent in my case 15:11:48 i guess if they dont then you have to try and outsmart them, but if you can't .... 15:13:46 in my case when my daughter doesn't listen I either just am firm with her, if it's something I will not negotiate on, or I negotiate with her, like "you get to finish your youtube video and then you get ready to go to bed" 15:14:40 I find negotiating is far more effective when one is willing to go partway with her 15:15:08 as tony_sidaway said earlier, sounds to me like youre a great parent 15:15:35 tabemann, thats probably true for all of us 15:18:52 tabemann, my daughter came top of her school at year 12 before she went on to university 15:19:30 tabemann, ironically shes the only one who actually listens to me 15:22:57 I just somehow need to get my daughter learn better money habits 15:23:19 because money is the thing that she's stubborn about 15:24:05 she isn't actually stubborn about youtube - when you suggest she do something different, and you let her finish what she's currently watching, she'll go and do it 15:24:19 my daughter, after putting herself thru 3 years of university became the tightest tight arse in the world 15:24:51 architecture is *very* expensive because of all the models they have to build and pay for themselves 15:25:03 apart from all the uni costs 15:25:31 she took out a student loan and spent the first few years working paying it back 15:25:32 they can't build buildings with CAD? 15:25:54 so shes debt free apart from her new apartment 15:26:24 sure, but architecture uses hand made models, dont aske me why 15:27:05 it's a really hard degree, they students get hammered continually as the tutors strive to eliminate them from the course 15:27:20 I'd've thought CAD would've been the way the way to go in this modern age 15:27:51 it is in her work of course 15:28:19 but they look for other things in the degree I guess 15:28:31 Im sure she did tons of cad also 15:29:30 we were talking about cad the other day, she told me they dont use cad such as autocad much now 15:30:06 she said it's all objects now, they use programs like openscad (but expensive commercial ones) 15:31:03 OOA Object Oriented Architecting 15:31:46 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 15:33:42 back 15:34:00 Phone battery died. Back. 15:34:05 hey 15:34:17 object oriented architecting oh my! 15:34:28 Tony_Sidaway, awesome! 15:35:04 Tony_Sidaway, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY7sXKGZl2w for the theremin video I was referring to 15:36:12 tabemann, tpbsd, great to see you are still around. It was perhaps 90 minutes ago. 15:36:17 Tony_Sidaway, I think a MCU could make a outstanding Theremin 15:37:25 Tony_Sidaway, the stability of a crystal clock can make a MCU highly precise, a order or two better than any analog equivalent can offer 15:41:11 tpbsd: stupid question 15:41:22 how does mecrisp-stellaris implement IMMEDIATE? 15:41:32 Gaudi is the nickname of a Swiss Theremin designer who created the Open.Theremin designs. His name is Urs Gaudenz. 15:41:33 when using compiletoflash 15:43:51 tabemann, I dont know, sorry. You're confusing me with a programmer again 15:48:38 That's a quite extraordinary performance on the Theremin. I was thinking of a different piece (one of Morricone's early works). 15:49:23 This is the one: Carolina Eyck. https://youtu.be/ajM4vYCZMZk 15:49:36 okay, I looked at mecrisp-stellaris's code, and I don't understand it 15:50:02 you too huh ? 15:50:43 Tony_Sidaway, it is, I was utterly mesmerised by her performance 15:50:47 As I said, a hybrid voice and Theremin piece. 15:51:32 Tony_Sidaway, youre sure there is a prerecorded human voice in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY7sXKGZl2w ? 15:52:14 she has a orchestra and a theremin, wouldnt she also have a human if she wanted a human voice ? 15:52:39 I couldnt tell, but Im tone deaf etc 15:53:23 back 15:53:33 tpbsd, no, to be clear, when you first mentioned the piece I mistook that for a reference to the Eyck piece. Now I realize we were discussing two completely different works. 15:56:05 Tony_Sidaway, so it's a theremin only ? 15:58:35 Yes, the Illényi piece you refer to is exactly as your described it. A theremin replaces the human voice. The only similarity is that both tunes were written by Morricone (for different films). 16:00:54 Something about the fluidity of his compositions makes them well suited to adaptation to the Theremin. 16:01:23 Morricone is legend to me 16:03:38 His work for film and television is unmatched. 16:03:47 :) 16:10:03 back 16:29:08 --- join: smokeink joined #forth 16:41:35 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Quit: Tony_Sidaway) 18:12:03 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 18:12:10 --- quit: iyzsong (Changing host) 18:12:10 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 18:54:55 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 20:35:52 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 20:39:34 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 20:40:49 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 21:27:42 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 23:10:46 --- join: ryke joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.12.28