00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.12.23 00:25:06 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 00:30:24 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 00:57:46 --- join: dys joined #forth 00:59:55 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 01:21:31 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 01:37:08 --- join: WilhelmVonWeiner joined #forth 01:38:47 Good morning forthers 01:59:26 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 02:09:52 fixed! "umodem1: on usbus0" is now ... 02:10:12 umodem1: on usbus0 02:25:29 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 02:46:08 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 02:50:15 --- quit: tpbsd (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 03:58:02 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 05:13:19 --- quit: smokeink (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 05:46:17 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in) 06:19:30 --- join: MrMobius joined #forth 07:33:54 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 08:14:22 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection) 08:18:42 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 09:17:15 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 09:46:35 --- quit: jimt[m] (Quit: killed) 09:46:54 --- quit: nonlinear[m] (Quit: killed) 09:47:16 --- quit: siraben (Quit: killed) 10:37:15 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 10:49:21 --- join: nonlinear[m] joined #forth 10:49:21 --- join: siraben joined #forth 10:49:21 --- join: jimt[m] joined #forth 11:36:51 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 11:45:26 --- join: tp joined #forth 12:30:45 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 12:30:48 --- quit: X-Scale` (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 12:45:06 --- quit: cantstanya (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 12:47:35 --- join: cantstanya joined #forth 12:58:52 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 13:03:24 --- join: X-Scale joined #forth 13:03:48 tp will be pleased, I think, to hear that my son bought me a soldering stand with a built-in LED lamp and a magnifier for Christmas. So I finally did some soldering today, a Digispark Pro clone that I'll be using for continued testing on my 16-bit NGA/Retro derivative project. 13:05:49 My aversion to hardware is notorious, I'm a software guy through and through. But even I can solder a couple of headers to a through-hole breakout board. 13:08:42 --- quit: jedb__ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:09:08 --- join: jedb__ joined #forth 13:09:19 My confidence growing, I'm eyeing the Gaudi Open.Theremin kit I bought earlier in the year. 13:09:25 https://create.arduino.cc/projecthub/gaudi/real-theremin-using-open-theremin-shield-for-arduino-4a2619 13:10:40 tp, it was thanks to a discussion we had a couple of months ago that I decided to stop being frightened of soldering. 13:13:45 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 13:13:49 --- join: ryke joined #forth 13:13:54 I'm considering one day soon buying a toaster oven to use in experiments with reflow soldering. But that's a whole different kettle of fish. 13:15:54 Tony_Sidaway, hi! 13:17:26 Tony_Sidaway, luckily it's raining here today so the smoke and high temps are lower, 28 - 30C until next Sunday :) 13:18:21 Tony_Sidaway, excellent, just remember that soldering is like writing software, the more practice, the better one gets at it 13:28:40 I started seeing why Forth is so popular with embedded projects. Yesterday I hooked up a serial EEPROM and tested it with SPI bit-banging interactively until I got block read/write words implemented within an hour or so. 13:28:43 tp, from what I see in our national British press, your Prime Minister is even more useless than Boris Johnson. 13:29:29 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 13:30:23 Hard to understand why democratically elected politicians in the English speaking world are currently do uniformly dire. 13:30:41 Robert, I only use Forth (including machine code) with embedded because it is the most suitable development system Ive ever experienced 13:31:11 Tony_Sidaway, theyre all useless here, just in it for their own personal gain 13:32:02 As for the soldering, tp, it turned out that throwing lots of light onto the joint too be soldered was nearly as important as the heat. 13:32:02 Robert, and SPI bit banging is so easy to do with Forth 13:32:32 Tony_Sidaway, yeah, clear vision of the soldering task is critical 13:35:16 Really looking forward to finishing that Gaudi theremin. My son got a Moog Theremini and it's just so much fun to play I wanted to build my own. 13:38:54 As a lifelong non-musician, there's a lot of fun to be had there. I think violinists are the only people who can play a theremin without lessons. Something about finding the scale along the string, I suppose. 13:42:58 possibly, I'm also a non-musician, assisted by being deaf in one ear (now at age 65) and tone deaf all my life 13:44:32 I have always loved designing and fixing gear. I've just released a new Forth bootable binary for testing the 'hidden' flash memory of STM32F103C8 chips 13:45:34 woo, at 63,808 Bytes I just got it in under the 64kB limit! 13:47:19 Hehe 13:48:34 I'm up to 1273 words (16-bit) of cross-compiled kernel, plus 1951 bytes of high-level code for core vocabulary + said EEPROM interface. 13:49:15 Given 8k words of RAM and half that amount of non-volatile storage, that's already quite big. 13:49:26 Robert, the binary I released has a ton of diagnostics and text, the base kernel is about 19kB 13:49:46 That's more like it. 13:49:55 well the base kernel and extensive Mecrisp-Stellaris distionary 13:50:29 the release is a diagnostics kit, so has a ton of stuff, user menu etc 13:51:42 --- join: ryke joined #forth 13:51:58 it only had to be under 64kB so the usual flashing software can flash it. The chip actually has 128kB but the default flashing software (OpenOCD) cant reach the second 64kB, which ws the reason I made the kit 13:54:42 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 13:57:56 Right. But in any case, fitting a Forth of any shape into a constrained system is always fun. 13:58:55 absolutely :) 13:59:11 I normally only use a 64kB flash mcu 13:59:21 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 14:00:34 I have hundreds of cortex-m0 STM32F051 in 64kB flash/8kB ram, 64Mhz and 32pin UFN, it's my favorite general purpose micro 14:01:12 it's very small at 5x5x1.2 mm, but still hand solderable 14:10:10 That makes the old fashioned DIL stuff I'm using look Brobdingnagian. 14:13:08 I've been doing SMT since around 1987 and very comfortable with it since then. I havent used DIPs since then 14:14:41 Oh how foolish I was to pursue a career in software when I could have learned how to solder microscopic components to ants' testicles. 14:14:47 DIP's mainly bring back memories of intense pain when they flip over during manual removal and all the tiny needle like pins drive into my finger tip 14:15:27 I once used to repair massive boards of TTL in DIP, all socketed 14:15:35 I know ants don't have testicles, but you know it's a funny idea. 14:16:41 if someone hadn't learned how to solder SMT, your cellphone would be the size of a brick at least 14:16:54 Obviously not for the fictional ant. I'm going to retire to metaphor now. 14:17:28 not to mention the vast savings in materials for the same (or better) electrical functionality 14:18:06 for instance I think I could fit about 100 of my MCU's in the same space as one 14 pin DIP package 14:19:58 My phone is easily the most powerful computer I have ever owned. My 1980s self was too preoccupied with colonies on the moon or under the sea, and flying cars, to predict the revolution in ease of access to the sum total of human knowledge that would occur during my lifetime. 14:23:45 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Quit: Tony_Sidaway) 14:24:17 it's interesting, in the 1930's they were saying "we will all be driving flying cars by 2000" but in 2019 they were saying "should we prepare for the return of the Bubonic Plague in 2020 ?" 14:25:44 I doubt the USA govt could get to the moon again. I think that the people who did it in 1969 arent around any more and the drive and knowledge has now been lost 14:27:39 In many ways, our societies have stalled, gone backwards. It seems unless the frontiers are constantly pushed forward mankind stagnates and loses a lot of knowledge and skill 14:28:50 Amazing to think Forth is pre-moonlandings. 14:29:21 someone made the brass gears in the Antikythera Mechanism in 2nd century BC, how many people could actually make one *right* now ? 14:29:28 * Robert working with DIPs as we speak (NE602, need to improvise an upconverter for 17 kHz broadcast tomorrow) 14:30:51 Robert, well signetics parts are very common in DIP's :) 14:31:42 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 14:31:53 I believe that unlike all computer languages which vanish in time, Forth will be around until the fundamental nature of computers changes 14:32:45 Robert, broadcasting underwater ? 14:36:26 Forth is what coders make when they need to get the job done inside a very stringent hardware spec. Would be surprised if there weren't a lot of satellites (geo, leo and solar) and extrasolar probes with Forth either as originally designed or else as new code shoehorned in to make the most of ancient and dying hardware. 14:38:18 tp: close enough, historical equiment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimeton_Radio_Station 14:44:32 https://www.forth.com/resources/space-applications/ 14:46:39 I love the idea of an electromechanical technology being kept alive as a museum. Then again, I'm a total weirdo who has a collection of slide rules at home. 15:13:59 Actually looked in my pocket and found a beautiful Russian slide rule from the Soviet period. I carry is because it's designed for the pocket, resembling a pocket watch. My daughter, fan of Philip Pullman's novels, calls it my Alethiometer. 15:23:17 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 15:25:11 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 15:26:05 It's a KL-1, as shown here: https://mostlymaths.net/2013/11/my-russian-kl-1-circular-slide-rule-and.html/ 15:29:14 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Client Quit) 15:34:51 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 15:47:34 --- join: jedb_ joined #forth 15:50:14 --- quit: jedb__ (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 16:12:17 --- join: ryke joined #forth 16:16:56 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 16:22:19 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 16:22:50 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 16:23:12 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Client Quit) 16:23:24 Tony_Sidaway, very cool slide rule! 16:25:40 Sadly, I lost my last slide rule long ago. 16:25:59 Robert, tomorrow you plan to receive the Grimeton_Radio_Station morse on a radio of a different frequency ? 16:29:15 I still have a 5 or 6 old nomogram/nomography books from the 60s 16:36:07 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 16:54:21 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 16:58:18 --- part: tabemann left #forth 16:58:48 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 18:03:17 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 18:06:10 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 18:52:17 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 19:48:06 --- join: smokeink joined #forth 20:00:06 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 20:00:50 hey guys 20:01:01 hey tabemann 20:01:13 Matthias got in touch with me 20:01:26 excellent 20:01:52 and I relicensed Zeptoforth to GPL3 so I can freely reuse parts of Mecrisp-Stellaris (which Matthias recommended) 20:02:22 why not reuse and improve ? 20:02:23 I wanted it to be BSD3, but there's parts of Mecrisp-Stellaris that are just too damn useful, specifically the initialization code 20:02:53 how complex is the init code ? 20:03:00 Ive never looked at it 20:03:37 it's not very complex, but it'd take a lot of research to figure out this stuff on my own 20:03:50 specifically all the registers and the bits in them 20:03:51 that's half the fun 20:04:05 I did run all of Mecrisp-Stellaris thru a graphical debugger and looked very complex 20:04:24 --- quit: smokeink (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 20:06:15 tabemann, iirc it took Matthias 2 years to write mecrisp for msp430, so it's far from trivial 20:06:57 --- join: smokeink joined #forth 20:08:41 the parts I expect to be the hardest are the platform-dependent IO/interrupt/etc. code 20:08:58 just because I need to dig to find the necessary info 20:09:24 these are also the parts where glancing at Mecrisp-Stellaris will be most helpful 20:09:43 most of Zeptoforth has been written entirely independent of Mecrisp-Stellaris 20:11:06 I don't anticipate it being that difficult per se overall, more just a "simple matter of programming" as they say 20:11:08 I think youre right, I know Matthias has had trouble in this area and is yet to finalise the design of RISC-V 32 Bit as regards the GD32VF103 20:12:12 the interrupt design for the GD32VF103 is not yet done, hence his releases are still marked 'experimental' 20:12:42 wait, they're releasing chips before the interrupt design is complete? 20:12:47 how does that work? 20:12:54 sorry, my poor worfing 20:12:58 wording 20:13:10 matthias has not finished his design 20:13:20 ah 20:13:50 but ... there are some shortcomings, errors and confusion in the GD32VF103 anyway 20:14:00 I guess like any new chip 20:15:08 for instance they made a error in the DFU code in the GD32VF103 so it won't work with the default DFU programming setup and has to use a modified version 20:16:24 then there is the complete renaming of all the peripherals which appear to be the exact same peripherals used in the STM32F103 20:18:56 that might be due to intellectual property reasons 20:19:15 yes, you could be right 20:19:19 like seriously STM may have copyrighted all the identifiers for their chips 20:19:44 I'm going to and run a comparison on all the registers and see what I get 20:20:17 the RISC-V ecosystem is still very much a moving target it seems 20:20:37 as the STM32F103 was released in 2004, apparently the die copyright has expired now 20:21:21 rdrop-exit, yeah, the GD32VF103 is just one mcu with the RISC-V core 20:22:45 and to confuse matters for English speaking tech people, it's a Chinese design 20:23:07 So who's keen on some chess then 20:25:02 jsoft, not me, I'm playing a nice game of Forth programming instead 20:25:42 Haven't played chess since I was a teenager and we had a chess club across the street 20:25:50 I prefer board wargames 20:25:54 I finally un-munged my USB device info "umodem1: on usbus0" 20:26:08 cool 20:26:51 it had been "umodem1: on usbus0" which I'm sure caused some confusion 20:27:52 and some muttered "what the hell is a "Fortherialort" with 42 requests to Google Translate 20:28:09 :)) 20:33:41 Next year I'll start decyphering the RISC-V external debug specification 20:34:42 rdrop-exit, coolest board game thing I played was heroscape iirc 20:36:08 I play mostly traditional hex & counter wargames from the likes of SPI, AH, GDW. 20:36:29 Yep I has no idea what those are 20:37:16 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_wargame 20:38:58 nerd 20:39:13 guilty as charged your honor 21:00:50 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 21:16:07 --- quit: FatalNIX_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 21:17:06 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 22:35:52 --- quit: MrMobius (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 23:41:07 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 23:58:30 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.12.23