00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.12.19 00:08:16 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 00:18:48 tpbsd even 00:19:21 yeah 00:19:24 thats me 00:19:54 giving my backup nick a run, clean out the cobwebs 00:34:38 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 00:39:22 c[] 00:39:46 g'day Zen Forth Guru! 00:40:07 Good afternoon Forth Master Technician (tm)! 00:42:03 hey rdrop-exit it's been 48 degC / 118.4F in Ceduna South Australia today, they set some new records 00:42:27 luckily it was only a cool 36C here at my desk 00:43:27 48C! Death Valley weather! 00:44:05 It's in the low 30s here right now 00:44:06 I guess wide brim hat sales are brisk in Death Valley ? 00:44:45 They don't call it Death Valley for nuttin' 00:45:28 yeah, that's hot 00:46:10 All-day siesta heat, no sense going outside the soles of your shoes will melt off 00:47:07 rdrop-exit, how is your local weather today ? 00:47:21 humid with thunderstorms ? 00:47:51 low 30s, pleasant, it's almost 5pm 00:48:16 lightning crackling over the smell of Sushi from the best Sushi shop in Manilla just across the road ? 00:48:24 31C to be exact 00:48:48 29,81 C at my desk 00:48:50 No rain yet, but expecting showers 00:49:14 at 07:48 pm 00:50:09 jsoft, you still in "code avoidance mode" ? 00:50:56 tpbsd, I made a small dent in it today 00:51:11 tpbsd, im doing my best to avoid it though it seems : 00:51:12 :D 00:51:33 hey jsoft 00:51:59 rdrop-exit, hey there 00:52:14 I doubt I'll do any coding until the new year, too many distractions during the holiday season 00:52:34 Yeah 00:52:43 rdrop-exit, all the gunfire on xmas and new years ? 00:54:09 shopping, parties, family, etc... 00:55:14 nice, coding can't compare 00:57:33 I even attended a rock concert for the first time since my teens the other week 00:58:08 mid life crisis ? 00:58:34 ;-) 00:59:12 I didn't care for the group, but my brother was on the crew, so it was a chance to see him 00:59:25 :) 00:59:25 --- quit: smokeink (Remote host closed the connection) 01:00:01 --- join: smokeink joined #forth 01:00:05 I got to hold guitars formely owned by Pete Townsend, Tom Petty, Santana, and a few others 01:00:22 Ive been disappointed in music since the 60's myself, thos the 70's was bearable 01:01:01 Tom Petty, theres music Ive generally liked. Loved 'mary jane' 01:01:14 last dance with mary jane 01:01:42 I saw Petty at Winterland in San Francisco before they tore it down 01:02:24 I went to tons of rock concerts and jazz festivals in my teens 01:02:27 last performer I saw was Donavan, and before him Stevie Wonder 01:02:48 well you were in California ! 01:03:25 you were in the centre of everything really ? 01:03:25 yes, and my father knew the main concert promoter 01:04:05 Saw mainly rock in SF, and Jazz and Blues in the South of France 01:04:46 very nice! 01:08:10 In Nice there was a concert in Roman ruins every year, afterwards if you drove to the clubs near the beach you could see the same artists jamming for fun 01:09:09 The last time I went there was Ray Charles, Dizzy Gillespie, Muddy Waters, Booker T, and more 01:09:21 awesome 01:10:18 In SF the rock concert scene was fantastic 01:10:27 (in the 70s) 01:12:14 Anyway last week was U2, not really a band I care for. 01:12:14 I'll bet it was! I spent that era mostly in outback Australia working or exploring on motorbike 01:13:17 not into 'when the belfast child sings again" ? 01:13:53 Not my bag, but my sons girlfriend is a fan of U2, even my wife likes a couple of their songs 01:14:27 I was there mainly to see my brother, which was great 01:14:29 Im not mad about U2 either, I like one or 2 of their songs tho 01:15:37 gee, jsoft is quiet tonight, he must be really enjoying his Python coding ? 01:15:56 perhaps jsoft will swap Python for Forth ? 01:17:29 I don't know Python, but I get the impression it's mostly about leveraging libraries, which is another world from Forth. 01:21:09 everything is another world from Forth 01:21:12 :) 01:21:18 good point :) 01:22:12 I'm not a Python fan myself 01:22:45 Even in C I was never one to use libraries other than the standard C and POSIX libraries. 01:23:04 I have plenty of libraries for my Forth system and make more every day 01:23:21 that sounds strange to my ears 01:24:36 I may make specialized word sets/vocabularies but I don't think of them as libraries 01:24:53 to me 'libraries' are just piles of definitions and functions/methods stacked together. 01:25:42 and I keep them in my 'library' where I can use them in any of my programs 01:26:19 theyre just general purpose Words 01:27:15 got it 01:29:31 it's the same thing for python and arduino users 01:30:18 except they dont usually write their own, rather use libraries written by others, which is the main attraction to them, and the main problem to me 01:33:46 right, that seems to be the main attraction of python, wrappers for every possible library you can think of, and user scripting above that, judging by the enourmous amounts of Python books out there for every possible application area 01:35:07 yes, but of course it's really a X86 monoculture thing, everything is the same hardware, so libraries usually work to some degree 01:35:34 sounds like a perfect language for domain experts who know how to program 01:35:52 in the embedded world, everything is different, so libraries are not much use 01:36:01 absolutely 01:36:36 when people say 'forth sucks because it has no libraries' they may as well say water sucks because it wont burn 01:37:35 the truth is that Forth can have tons of libraries, there is nothing stopping a Forth user writing them as I have 01:37:43 --- join: dys joined #forth 01:38:05 but my libraries arent much use to anyone else except in a very narrow cscope 01:38:10 -c 01:39:58 my recently released 'STM32F103C8 'test kit' is very handy to people who own that chip, but it's useless to someone who owns a STM32F303 etc 01:40:18 and STM has literally thousands of different MCU's 01:41:44 I used several library Words in my test kit but released the binary, so no one has to work out how it all joins together, which is just as well as the people using it arent Forth users anyway 01:42:07 theyre all Windows OS users of Arduino 01:49:16 As a late comer to Forth, how has it affected the way you think about programming? 01:49:39 (sorry if that's such a vague question, just being curious) 01:49:50 it's a great question 01:52:38 The only coding I every really found flowed from my fingers was 6800 assembly, something about it had a 'correctness' had a purpose 01:53:37 --- quit: smokeink (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:53:42 I fumbled around thru various languages such as C, but until I found Forth I had never felt that 'correctness' again 01:54:09 I feel like forth could be that for me, but I need to design my own to get the feeling of this language is right 01:54:14 and even then, it took me years of learning Forth before I felt it 01:54:33 gforth doesnt offer it, ANS doesn't offer it 01:55:12 crab1, I think youre probably right, and it's been often said that one needs to make their own Forth to 'really get Forth' 01:55:45 crab1, and thats probably true for me also as I still only grasp a small part of Forth 01:55:47 'correctness', interesting 01:56:15 I have made a traditional sort of one based off jonesforth, but that wasn't it for me either, I need some differences 01:56:39 rdrop-exit, as a electronics guy, only Assembler seemed to meld electronics and programming into a Zen like state for me 01:56:51 I have also felt the whole "this program is somehow morally right" from some lisp programs 01:57:05 rdrop-exit, until Forth 01:57:25 crab1, I have been very slowly learning Lisp also 01:58:15 The feeling I get with non-Forth environments is that they 'get in my way'. That's the problem I have with ANS flavored Forths, they still 'get in my way'. 01:58:36 now for me, assembler and Forth have melded into one, and Forth is my preference, but I'm still very closely working with assembler 01:59:22 I recommend looking at some of oleg's programs, at okmij.org/ftp/Scheme 02:01:59 I know a writer, she was 'born to write', has been published and she just seems to understand new words in her sleep. When she did her degree and masters I did her IT and set her up for LaTeX which she used thruout her university career. Initially she hated the in text formatting of LaTeX, and said it interrupted her writing 'flow'. I feel the same about programming languages except Assembly and Forth 02:02:00 Forth is an extensible interactive assembler for both it's own VM and whatever lies beneath. 02:02:14 * its own 02:02:31 crab1, thanks, bookmarked! 02:04:13 Never cared for Scheme and/or Lisp 02:06:05 I love the concept of LISP and I'm determined to understand it one day 02:06:41 it took me a few years before Forth 'clicked' for me, I expect LISP will take the same or longer 02:07:42 rdrop-exit, so to answer your question, Forth is responsible for actually inspiring me to *think about* programming for the first time sinve the mid 80's 02:08:00 excellent 02:08:21 Forth hasnt changed how I think about programming, it caused me to start thinking about programming 02:08:59 very cool 02:09:23 because before Forth I was only wading thru a muddied water that blocked a clear view of my path 02:09:51 waxing philosphical 02:10:41 C is such a easy and incredible language that it's proponents spend all the time arguing about the correct syntax, the traps, and what it's supposed to do 02:11:47 Forth people spend their time discussing their Forths, different ways to build them, the pros and cons of each technique 02:12:46 That's because each Forth is different and is a reflection of its author. 02:12:50 Forth people seem to be explorers to me, always interested in new lands no one has been to before 02:13:22 --- join: smokeink joined #forth 02:13:27 but C users seem to be language police. follow the rules or else 02:15:20 When I program in C, I try to pin down things rather than leave them up to the compiler 02:15:24 Forth users seem to think the Forth God has feet of clay, unlike C users who have a mantra that 'no man can produce assembly as perfect as the C compiler" 02:15:56 doesn't feet of clay mean weak foundations 02:16:15 well, Im only discussing C for embedded, thats the only place I have some small C expertise 02:16:59 C has many flaws, but I still prefer it to the alternatives when it comes to compiled languages. 02:17:11 I really am not a C fan 02:17:24 I think there are many preferable alternatives 02:17:42 I even prefer haskell to C, and haskell is a mess 02:17:50 crab1, I guess I meant to convey that I think FOrth users believe that a Forth is only as good as it's design and they always seem to be aware of the compromises 02:18:26 tpbsd: ah I understand ya now 02:18:44 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection) 02:18:55 Haskell isn't a pure ahead-of-time compiled language, is it? 02:19:08 the whole "c compiler means perfect fast assembly" is such hogwash 02:19:12 crab1, Im a Forth beginner really, I only have opinions and they may easily be inaccurate or just plain wrong 02:19:58 rdrop-exit: it has a REPL for development purposes, but in practice you compile any program of worth 02:20:00 crab1, yeah, nothing beats a human in my experience 02:20:29 also, C is incapable of making certain optimizations 02:21:20 for example, fortran can optimize matrix operations at a level that c programs cannot, due to decisions made in fortran's design of arrays 02:21:22 crab1, compile as in full blown ahead of time compilation? 02:21:32 crab1, I admit Gcc does produce pretty small assembly when the opts are set and all the secret qualifiers such as 'volatile' have been learned, but humans still easily beat it 02:21:48 rdrop-exit: what do you mean? 02:22:25 but then with forth, you could implement arrays exactly as fortran does really without any overhead 02:23:08 I just have a beef with mantras such as the typical C users recite with out even thinking about what theyre actually saying 02:23:39 rdrop-exit: like you compile the haskell program and get a regular binary, I would think that is full blown ahead of time compilation 02:23:57 I want to see some ridiculous C mantras 02:24:39 crab1, the main one is "no man can produce assembly as perfect as the C compiler" 02:24:44 Yes, assuming there's no late-binding, dynamic allocation, in the binary. 02:25:08 * and such in the binary. 02:26:42 I would not know whether those things are in haskell binaries 02:26:50 time to find out 02:30:40 Fortran's matrice are efficient because they are in column major order, just ignore C's multi-dimensional arrays and roll your own as you would in Forth. 02:32:14 Personally, my only interest in C is that its the lingua franca for POSIX platforms. 02:32:56 late binding is the thing that lets you change definitions during runtime right? 02:34:31 Where things that could have been pinned down and resolved at compile-time take up run-time. 02:34:40 yeah haskell doesn't have any of that 02:35:01 because part of the point of pure functional programs is that everything is static and predictable 02:35:46 hmmm 02:37:15 I think you have an unusual definition of static and predictable 02:37:29 how? 02:40:34 Is the resource usage static and predictable? 02:43:30 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 02:44:13 My impression of functional languages has always been premature abstraction. 02:45:58 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 02:48:16 currently, resource usage is not predictable, but I believe if they add linear types, you could make things resource safe with them. I believe you can also add resource limits? but when I say predictable in terms of functional programming it refers to the result of the program 02:49:20 inputs guarantee outputs 02:51:07 The result of the program has to be correct in any environment, that's a given, but there are other constraints that you have to meet in any product, memory, latency, etc... In realtime systems for example, the saying goes "a late answer is a wrong answer". 02:51:46 I would not use haskell for many things 02:52:07 'realtime systems' is a interesting term to a technician like me 02:52:07 but I prefer the experience of writing haskell to the experience of writing C 02:53:15 to me everything takes time, and so one must ensure that sufficient time is available for all tasks 02:54:23 crab1, been studying Forth long ? 02:54:49 My impression is that functional programming is more about "expressing" a result in an abstract sense, rather than "engineering" a product. 02:56:30 In other words premature abstraction. 02:57:36 tpbsd: I haven't really been computing for long, I mean I first saw forth when I was maybe 16 and didn't really get into it, and then maybe a half a year ago (am 19 now) I wrote a couple small programs, started to dislike ANS, kinda had ideas floating around my head as to what my ideal forth would look like, and I started forthing again a couple days ago 02:58:00 cool 02:58:06 rdrop-exit: I see both approaches as valuable 02:58:32 the first maybe is more valuable in understanding the problem then in the end result though 02:58:34 crab1, you're 19!!!! geepers, you sound 19 going on 50 to me :) 02:59:06 but with forth you have extreme abstractive power and extreme engineering power, so you get both, and that's nice 02:59:13 have I not aged well lol 02:59:46 crab1, I think you seem to have a very sensible head on your shoulders 03:00:02 Yes, with Forth you keep control of the engineering tradeoffs 03:00:11 (unless ANS) 03:00:25 I was just lucky to have a friend expose me to Forth early on 03:01:07 crab1, yet Forth has this stigma and is generally reviled by all the current hipster favorite language users 03:02:08 I get called a hipster all the time by fellow OpenBSD users for saying good things about forth 03:02:11 it is unfortunate 03:02:20 but funny that both camps use hipster toward the other 03:02:37 Although I wouldn't be surprised if many Forthers from a functional programming background still prematurely abstract in their Forths 03:02:38 crab1, I continually run into Forth critical mantras such as 'forth is read only', espoused by people who have no idea what Forth is 03:03:14 rdrop-exit: you kinda have to be ready to forget it all when you commit to learning forth 03:03:28 crab1, openbsd people dont view Forth with any appreciation ? 03:04:06 rdrop-exit, it seems that many people with programming backgrounds bring that into their Forth usage 03:04:32 The last thing one should care about is what so-called hipster programmers think 03:05:26 It's like caring about the music tastes of teenyboppers 03:06:05 tpbsd: a few, maybe, for its simplicity. but in the end it's like a toy to them, they don't see it as capable of the heavy lifting required by an operating system. And it's difficult to show them as forth brings a lot of philosophical differences, I show them a driver from colorForth and they say "of course it's small, it hardly implements any of the capabilities of the hardware," and when I say 03:06:06 that chuck did not need all of those capabilities, I am scoffed at 03:06:21 but why make more driver than your application needs? 03:06:50 crab1, in a forum I frequent (EEVblog) I wasn't able to resist commenting on embedded matters from a Forth user perspective and was usually the brunt of clueless C users, which doesn't bother me (I'm 65) 03:07:05 If I was at that point, I'd just write my own drivers as proof, but I am not there yet 03:07:59 crab1, but as I started making bootable binaries available so the same people could test their hardware, the forth critical mantras slowly died off 03:08:00 Forth probably has a strange age distribution among people that use it 03:08:28 Have you designed hardware as well? 03:08:36 all my life 03:08:53 I would like to, but it seems expensive 03:09:14 this is my latest bootable binary: https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/stm32f103c8-diags.html#stm32f103c8-diags 03:09:44 on the contrary, designing your own hardware can be the least expensive way to make it 03:09:56 You don't need to prove anything to them, do your own thing, get satisfaction from your work and payoff from your market. 03:09:57 but that depends on the hardware of course 03:11:27 rdrop-exit, I like to argue the point now and again as the age of the old, crusty curmudgeon comes upon me 03:13:38 Sure, I'm saying crab1 shouldn't feel the need to prove anything to hipster programmers 03:13:51 ahh 03:14:06 I just know a guy that decided to design a board that used a zynq chip and could run 9front and that project was an investment of like $1000 or something 03:14:16 plus manhours 03:14:16 yeah, he will have his work cut out doing that, especially to deaf ears 03:15:04 crab1, my designs have always been pretty simple and practical 03:15:23 rdrop-exit: I already have desire to make an OS in forth, and if I can add "proof that forth can do an OS's heavy lifting" to my list of motivations, I will take the opportunity 03:15:33 Programming is (or should be) an engineering proffesion, engineer products and let the market prove you right. 03:15:38 crab1, for instance, industrial sensors, machine controllers etc 03:15:39 tpbsd: are there more around if I browse that website? 03:16:03 rdrop-exit, I agree with you as usual 03:16:07 Forth is an anti-OS 03:16:19 OS is probably the wrong word 03:16:29 crab1, thats my website, it's pretty much just my notes as I go along on my Forth jourbey 03:16:29 but bootable system 03:16:37 An OS in Forth is probably just as bad as any other OS 03:17:15 Focus on the end product. 03:17:21 crab1, i have a few simple hardware projects there, such as a LMT01 temperature sensor reader etc 03:18:04 it reads the temperature here on my desk: 26,43 C 03:18:04 79,47 F 03:18:48 my desired end product just ends up being close to an OS, I'm not sure how to whittle it down more 03:18:58 tpbsd: wonderful 03:19:01 who will you sell it to? 03:19:11 me? 03:19:22 I use that particular sensor because there is no Arduino 'library' for it so you dont see a thousand projects using it 03:20:02 tpbsd: how accurate are those sensors? 03:20:11 you?? 03:20:17 lol, what you see are Arduino users complaining that cant make it work, and does anyone have a 'LMT01 library' 03:20:43 crab1, I think theyre very accurate as multiple sensors are really close 03:20:51 rdrop-exit: I wouldn't be selling to anyone, I need a nice environment for me to do development in first 03:21:06 crab1, *awesome* 03:21:40 crab1, I have made my own Forth development environment using common OSS tools, and I suits me perfectly 03:21:56 like how mister forth himself needed OKCAD before he worked on further projects 03:22:20 crab1, I quickly found that Forth was so malleable I could mold it to suit myself 03:22:39 that's what I need 03:22:41 malleable 03:22:49 crab1, and thats what you have 03:23:02 once I write mine, yes 03:23:13 yeah, it takes time 03:23:44 rdrop-exit, is designing the 'one Forth to rule them all, I think it will be pretty awesome 03:23:54 what is his forth like? 03:23:55 Making your own tools is great, but you don't really need a custom OS for that 03:24:51 I've had an imaginary forth in my head for a good while, though I really have no clue if it's a good one or not 03:25:00 crab1, no one knows, but we suspect he is blending in his malice and his need to rule into his 'one Forth 03:25:09 so I like to hear details 03:25:16 --- nick: jedb__ -> jedb 03:25:26 ah it's always good to have a little malice in your software 03:25:30 hahah 03:26:04 Mine? It's a neanderthal Forth, runs on POSIX, talks to target(s) over a tether, lays down code on the target interactively 03:26:04 rdrop-exit, I dont have a custom os, I just have unix and the usual utilities that will be around for another thousand years 03:26:22 fbsd iirc? 03:26:37 jsoft, yeah, freebsd 03:26:51 tp, I was reacting to crab1's custom OS plan 03:27:05 rdrop-exit, ahh, sorry 03:27:30 I just have a burning desire to experience forth all the way down 03:27:34 rdrop-exit, well youll have a custom non-os for yours ;-) 03:28:48 crab1, like the old lady who claimed that 'forth held up the world' and when asked what holds up Forth ? replied "it's Forth all the way down!" 03:28:48 I'm not sure at what point it becomes an OS 03:29:01 The host Forth runs on a POSIX portable VM. 03:29:07 tpbsd: exactly 03:29:27 rdrop-exit, a POSIX portable non-os VM ? 03:30:15 Yes, the host (i.e. the PC side) runs on any POSIX OS (in theory) 03:30:25 jsoft, what are you doing here, shouldn't you be programming ? 03:30:40 bbiab 03:30:55 I guess it's an OS if you're at the point where you have "applications" that have to make "OS calls" and that sort of stuff 03:31:11 crab1, seems correct to me 03:31:26 I would probably not go to that extent 03:31:32 that seems unnecessary 03:31:33 tpbsd, hey, I wrote an if statement. 03:31:45 everything is a word > everything is a file :) 03:31:49 crab1, I just tied various OSS apps together into a IDE that I love using 03:32:02 what sort of ide 03:32:05 jsoft, in Python ? 03:32:22 tpbsd, C 03:32:36 crab1, I use gnu screen as a high speed serial terminal thats controlled remotely from a gvim editor 03:33:03 jsoft, I thought C came with some decision constructs already ;-) 03:33:14 :P 03:33:34 I greatly enjoy acme as an IDE, but it only seems to live up to what it should be on a real plan9 system 03:33:44 and I am not on a plan9 system 03:33:45 lol I have this semi hacky DPRINT macro, which switches the printf output to a different pair of pins, and then back to the modem 03:34:00 ie DPRINT(printf("lolz\r\n")); 03:34:42 crab1, my IDE strips all comments and then sends them to the MCU at 460800 baud. It also processes any errors from the on chip Forth compiler and highlights them for me and beeps the terminal bell 03:34:45 And as I am debugging the serial comms to a modem, it is actually quite handy. Does not interrupt the modem stuff. 03:35:19 back 03:35:23 forwards 03:35:25 wonderful 03:35:35 an absolute sensation even 03:36:06 what bizzarrery have I missed? 03:36:19 read up and you shall see 03:36:29 crab1, so my "IDE" is a integrated dev environment, but it's made from using common OSS apps and utils 03:36:30 what irc clients do you use? 03:36:40 irssi 03:36:45 I use hexchat 03:37:11 jsoft uses MIRC 03:37:28 tpbsd: that's what a real IDE is, something like pycharm or eclipse or whatever is hardly well integrated into your system 03:37:47 but that's the draw of acme too, the power comes from allowing the use of regular system tools 03:37:59 crab1, I could run my complete system from a RPI2 and have plenty of speed 03:38:22 Youd need a week for a RPI2 to even load eclipse 03:38:35 run your system on a toaster? 03:38:46 crab1, I also include something quite specialised for Forth 03:39:02 and that is? 03:39:08 crab1, um, probably not a toaster because carbs are bad for Forth! 03:39:27 crab1, familiar with ARM at all ? 03:39:38 somewhat 03:39:53 I have looked at RISC more than ARM but I hear they are similar 03:40:19 crab1, I didn't understand you "that's what a real IDE is" 03:40:49 lol. 03:40:54 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 03:40:57 crab1, I only use Forth with Cortex-M and my system uses CMSIS-SVD by parsing the XML mcu.svd file into a complete list of memory maps and bitfield Words 03:41:09 rdrop-exit, a real IDE is well Integrated with the system, and if it doesn't allow you access to regular system tools, I find it hard to consider it integrated 03:41:20 I disagree 03:42:27 tpbsd: I only understand about a third of that 03:42:53 the "integrated" in IDE doesn't mean integrated with something else 03:42:53 crab1, I did say it was 'specialised' :) 03:43:24 rdrop-exit, it might 03:43:58 crab1's definition is that it must 03:44:12 my IDE is well integrated with my unix system and if it wasnt, it would be usless to me 03:44:18 tpbsd, I know what a bitfield is, I know what memory maps are, I do not know what CMSIS-SVD is 03:45:10 crab1, https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/register-generator.html#svd2forth 03:45:17 rdrop-exit: more like it won't be a great ide if it slaps itself on top of the system instead of just pulling the system together into something useful 03:45:26 crab1, a picture is worth a thousand words :) 03:45:30 tp, ok your IDE might be well integrated with your Unix, but that is not what the "integrated" in IDE means 03:45:55 rdrop-exit, the term IDE is very simple and somewhat ambiguous I feel 03:46:11 it's not specific about what it is integreated with ? 03:46:15 An integrated development environment (IDE) is a software application that provides comprehensive facilities to computer programmers for software development. 03:46:54 ok, well that doesn't disagree with what I just said does it ? 03:47:24 it doens't necessarily require it either 03:48:12 If your Forth has an editor, assembler, meta-compiler, cross-assembler, comms, and everything you need, it's an IDE. 03:48:59 tpbsd: #sxd2forth- I understand it better now 03:49:07 why must it have all that to be a IDE ? 03:49:45 crab1, excellent, it is specialised for embedded which many Forth people these days have little knowledge of 03:50:28 rdrop-exit, in fact my Forth does have all that, just not in the one place, unlike yours 03:50:37 There's no specific list, as long as it has what you need, and it's all integrated, it's an IDE, even if it doesn't integrate with an external editor, an external comms program. 03:50:56 tp, yours is also an IDE 03:51:17 I'm only saying that crab1's definition is too restrictive 03:51:27 rdrop-exit, then I have a IDE, but I knew that already because no one simple TLA describes it as well as "IDE" :) 03:52:19 His definition says that an IDE is integrated with default OS tools (I'm paraphrasing) 03:52:53 crab1, rdrop-exit is our local Zen Forth Guru, and often his points are precise, I have learnt a great deal from him :) 03:53:13 thank you for your support :) 03:53:45 rdrop-exit, youre welcome, thank you for your ongoing enlightment :) 03:54:15 :)) 03:54:38 crab1, RISC-V 32 Bit is quite different from ARM, and far, far less mature, tho I like it and feel that RISC-V 32 Bit could grow to become far bigger than ARM in time 03:54:58 --- quit: smokeink (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 03:55:20 crab1, Im working on a couple of RISC-V 32 Bit boards at the moment, but most of my effort goes into Cortex-M 03:58:16 crab1, a 'project builder' written in shell is also part of my system, and it generates a new project in 0.1 seconds including all the cmsis-svd generated Words for the MCU 03:58:53 crab1, it also integrates the Fossil SCM into the newly generated project 04:10:01 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in) 04:10:58 back 04:11:05 welcome back! 04:11:35 thanks :) 04:13:06 do you release any of your development tools? 04:13:15 I would be curious to look at them 04:14:16 yeah I release everything but some stuff is still a mess or being changed a lot so hasnt made it into the general notes yet 04:15:01 i try and release pictures of my concepts as the idea is the main thing, the implementation is just targeted grunt work 04:17:00 crab1, this a page I did a while ago on my IDE 04:17:04 https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/modern-forth-development-environment.html?highlight=integrated 04:17:33 crab1, I think of it as a 'semi tethered' develop environment ;-) 04:19:26 how do baud and mbps compare 04:20:05 baud closely equates to bps 04:20:08 I've never dealt with the whole develop something and send it to some external piece of hardware that runs it 04:20:42 crab1, I thought that may have been the case, but youve picked up the concepts rapidly 04:20:59 Well at least not intimately, I think my father gave me a little microchip to play with once, I believe that used C 04:21:11 this is pretty much the essense of small embedded systems 04:21:36 crab1, youve heard of arduino I inagine ? 04:21:45 it was something TI I remember being proud to figure that you can flash rgb LEDs to make different colors or do gradients 04:22:11 I have heard of arduino I helped someone write some program for one in high school I think 04:22:24 but I did not touch the whole transfer the program process 04:22:26 yeah, Ti make good gear and their MSP430 has really nice assembly language 04:23:45 arduino is small MCU embedded, but it's really designed for artists and no tech people who can grab a library and 'make' something, perhaps a light display for a ice sculpture 04:24:46 Arduino is very restricted and the users cant really deviate from the built in variance of the 'libraries' or the projects wont work 04:25:35 Arduino is pretty much the opposite of embedded Forth where Forth users make everything themselves, which means they can do *anything* 04:25:40 0x0.st/ViV this is something like what my father gave me 04:25:57 I believe they were using it at his job but no longer needed it 04:26:05 there's a chance I still have it somewhere 04:28:07 great to see dads inspiring their kids with creative kits to make things 04:28:12 can't find it, but anyway, my experience is limited to that 04:28:36 I was overwhelmed by it lol the only saving grace was a few example C programs 04:28:55 but it is an advantage having an RF design engineer as a father :) 04:29:03 embedded is a niche, and really, Forth was originally designed to run on small simple systems I think 04:29:32 aha, yes, a RF designer is a hallowed profession indeed! 04:29:40 part of the forth argument is that we don't need much more than small, simple systems, no? 04:30:11 tpbsd: and here I am, working in a warehouse 04:30:32 or "forth isnt used in complex systems, because we break complex systems down into simple ones first before we use Forth with them" 04:31:07 0x0.st/zViV * I mistyped the link earlier 04:31:25 crab1, well your dad may have worked in a warehouse at 19 also ? 04:31:48 he took the military->college->engineer route 04:32:38 smart! 04:32:42 is forthing your profession? 04:32:58 here I am using Forth with embedded and Ive worked in warehouses also 04:33:36 Im nearly retired at 65, Im a electronics technician by profession, and do build small embedded controllers which I sell 04:34:17 I think the freelance route would be ideal, but that's probably not so easy to achieve 04:34:40 I havent sold any using Forth yet as Im still becoming proficient at it, but I have completed testing on one Forth powered protoype that I plan to sell 04:35:24 I'm with rdrop-exit here, one builds ones product and measures it success in the market 04:36:00 I like hearing from poeple that continue to progress after they've "made it", I feel like a lot of people I know just stop learning and doing new things once they have a niche 04:36:16 crab1, Im still a Forth beginner, but Im getting fairly dangerous now 04:36:36 It's good to be dangerous 04:36:40 hahah 04:36:48 I'm not very dangerous, however 04:36:51 I will get there 04:37:42 in embedded, knowing the device has rigid limits on resources etc is very important, and I feel that Forth provides this better than say C 04:38:03 Im very confident after a years testing of my prototype 04:38:25 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 04:38:39 I started learning Forth in 2014, so Ive taken my time and proceeded slowly as limited mental horsepower allows :) 04:39:43 I have found that I can do *anything* with Forth. Forth forces me to really understand the problem, refactor my solution until it's elegant 04:40:24 but it's time for zzz here in eastern auatralia at 2340 hrs 04:40:44 Enjoy your rest 04:41:03 thanks for a interesting chat crab1, I hope to hear more of your Forth adventures and philosophy 04:41:31 Hopefully I'll be hanging around #forth more frequently :) 04:41:34 crab1, you sound like a Forth 'natural' to me 04:41:50 crab1, awesome, cya for now! 04:43:02 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 04:43:12 wb 04:44:50 --- join: qweo joined #forth 04:50:43 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 05:18:58 --- quit: crab1 (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 06:47:49 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 07:12:59 hey guys 07:26:48 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 07:31:07 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 07:47:27 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 07:57:17 --- join: ryke joined #forth 08:05:38 --- quit: cp- (Quit: Disappeared in a puff of smoke) 08:06:33 --- join: cp- joined #forth 08:11:41 --- quit: cp- (Quit: Disappeared in a puff of smoke) 08:12:39 --- join: cp- joined #forth 08:59:57 --- join: TonySidaway joined #forth 09:25:38 --- quit: TonySidaway (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 10:04:51 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 10:11:02 --- join: Tony_Sidaway_ joined #forth 10:12:49 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 10:18:06 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway_ (Quit: Tony_Sidaway_) 10:29:20 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 10:30:38 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 10:31:49 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 10:32:06 --- join: Tony_Sidaway joined #forth 10:45:31 I hope tp is okay. Much of Australia is on fire, and the governments are acting like complacent idiots about it. 10:51:55 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 11:29:17 --- quit: Tony_Sidaway (Quit: Tony_Sidaway) 11:50:20 --- quit: ryke (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11:50:29 --- join: ryke joined #forth 11:57:19 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 12:05:28 --- quit: malyn (*.net *.split) 12:05:28 --- quit: Lord_Nightmare (*.net *.split) 12:05:41 --- join: Lord_Nightmare joined #forth 12:08:25 --- join: malyn joined #forth 12:19:27 --- quit: oxford (*.net *.split) 12:42:09 --- join: crab1 joined #forth 12:42:36 afternoon 12:51:42 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 12:53:39 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 13:47:28 --- join: jedb_ joined #forth 13:50:07 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 15:08:23 --- join: jedb__ joined #forth 15:11:06 --- quit: jedb_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 15:27:13 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 15:34:32 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 15:36:14 Afternoon ladies 15:54:34 afternoon Forthlings! 16:05:41 --- join: ryke joined #forth 16:36:51 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 16:52:57 how are we doing? 16:53:51 I'm good, you ? 16:54:21 today I work on my library SCM integration som emore 16:54:41 I'm okay, trying to understand ARMv7 instructions so I can write an assembler 16:54:49 but have to go to work in ~1 hour 16:55:18 wow write an assembler 16:55:39 yeah work gets in the way of fun now and again 16:55:59 Assembler seems a good place to start for understanding an architecture 16:56:18 a great place I think 16:56:37 *sigh* 16:57:02 I was gonna go with x86 but I quickly realized the meaning of the "C" in CISC 16:57:09 whatsamatter jsoft, still into code avoidance ? 16:57:18 After a few days of going 'wtf is this lora thing missing uploads', well, my lora gateway needed a bigger capacitor 16:57:23 "crappy" ;-) 16:57:36 hahahah, typical! 16:57:42 thats development for ya 16:57:47 The poor raspberry pi was dropping out on some uploads 16:57:55 I had issues even ssh'ing into it 16:58:10 so random 2200 uf to the rescue! :D 16:58:14 power issues 16:58:28 when to use Thumb vs when to use ARM 16:58:37 seems like a complicated problem 16:58:46 you can switch on the fly right? 16:58:46 Yeah some moron did not put enough capacitance on the raspberry pi power supply/adapter board 16:58:50 I dunno who that could be 16:58:56 * jsoft looks around innocently 16:59:27 statistics that I just made up day that 50% of new developments have PSU design issues 16:59:32 day = say 16:59:57 crab1, Thumb is smaller, but more limited 17:00:14 crab1, if you have tons of memory, ARM ? 17:00:51 crab1, if you dont have much flash, then Thumb ? 17:01:00 can't you switch between the two like how x86 has modes? 17:01:29 crab1, I think so but I have no experience 17:01:39 hmmk 17:01:41 tpbsd, the weird thing is this fucker has been running sweet for years. Perhaps the existing caps are shit 17:01:46 probably easier to just deal with one 17:01:46 Or worn out or whatever 17:03:28 jsoft, in 65% of new designs, the designers just guess stuff because they're too lazy to actually find out 17:04:33 Well it is a lot of effort. 17:04:40 And who likes effort. 17:04:53 Might as well just shove something on there and see what happens 17:05:29 crab1, one of the Forths I use is new and for the rv32. Initially it used the RISC-V 32 Bit ISA and the bootable binary was about 26kB. The designer then rewrote it to use the 'compressed 16 bit ISA' and reduced the bootable binary to 17kB 17:06:31 jsoft, yeah, it's hard work hooking up those heavy scope probes and measuring the ripple under full load 17:07:15 well I'm off to cook some rump steak and eggs for lunch, bbl ! 17:07:22 it took me a solid 30 seconds in this case, I aught to be nighted for such efforts 17:07:26 Enjoy! :D 17:18:06 tpbsd: 26kB sounds like a lot to me, but maybe I have unrealistic standards 17:18:20 I guess I'll get a better idea of what takes what as I go 17:18:45 bu for now, 32 17:20:49 I guess 32 is 4 bytes/instruction = 2600/4 = 650 instructions? 17:46:46 off to work, toodleoo 17:52:26 --- quit: cheater (Quit: Reconnecting) 17:53:02 --- join: cheater joined #forth 17:54:49 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 17:55:25 --- quit: cheater (Client Quit) 17:55:55 --- join: cheater joined #forth 18:29:44 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 18:31:07 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 18:37:23 --- join: ryke joined #forth 18:52:45 --- join: smokeink joined #forth 19:20:14 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 19:21:33 --- part: tabemann left #forth 19:22:27 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 20:13:31 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 20:40:40 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 21:10:55 --- quit: MrMobius (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 21:13:12 --- join: FatalNIX_ joined #forth 21:19:28 --- quit: FatalNIX (*.net *.split) 21:35:56 I'll give someone $0.20 if they finish off this code for me 21:37:39 don't expect a mad rush to accept your fine offer 21:38:30 :D 21:49:49 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 21:53:10 --- quit: cp- (Quit: Disappeared in a puff of smoke) 21:53:52 --- join: cp- joined #forth 22:01:10 --- join: MrMobius joined #forth 22:54:04 --- quit: dddddd (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 22:55:48 The South Australian town of Nullarbor hit 49.9 degrees Celsius (121.8 Fahrenheit) on Thursday, 23:23:31 Yeah nah, pass. 23:25:32 It's consistently 25-35 ᵒC in Bangkok, even this time of year. 23:26:18 Humid too 23:26:41 It's to do with the angle of potatos 23:50:52 --- quit: smokeink (Remote host closed the connection) 23:51:12 --- join: smokeink joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.12.19