00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.12.07 00:54:43 jsoft ping 00:55:17 pong 00:56:09 after some experementation it looks to me like arrays are flash only but buffers (even created in flash) are ram based 00:56:50 jsoft, is that your findings also ? 00:58:12 jsoft, i.e. you need to use buffers for your project, not arrays 00:59:10 because you are writing/reading the buffer during flash based program execution 00:59:44 tp, yeah already switch to buffers since approximately 2:30 am friday morning 00:59:45 :) 00:59:59 i thought so, just confirming 01:00:08 but the create thing does work when only compiletoram is used. 01:01:20 there is no 'create thing' you mean something like "create array 80 allot" ? 01:06:32 yeah the create thing 01:07:01 well I'm glad we cleared that up 01:07:45 Yes :) 01:07:57 I ate half a kg of shrimp this evening :D 01:08:22 I'd hate us to be floundering around Forth like a couple of morons unaware of and unable to communicate using precise terminology, thank God that's not us! 01:08:32 wow 01:08:58 I had more steak 01:09:11 Yeah I had some scotch fillet too 01:09:17 now I'll have a 3 day fast I think 01:09:29 Its weird, scotch fillet seems to come in like, normal steak form, and also that really thin stuff 01:09:34 wtf 01:09:43 Why a fast for ? 01:09:52 I'm trying eating once every 3 days or only when Im hungry because I lead a sedentary lifestyle 01:10:09 overweight is the driver 01:10:16 Eating when hungry is a good idea 01:10:19 :) 01:10:25 agreed 01:10:35 seems to have worked for me the last 65 years 01:10:41 hehe :D 01:11:00 so I've learned a few new things 01:11:09 What are those things 01:11:21 now I know why buffers exist and how they work 01:11:31 ditto arrays 01:11:54 mt test buffer is called 'scratchpad' 01:12:06 \ compiletoflash 01:12:06 \ 9 buffer: scratchpad 01:12:06 \ compiletoram 01:12:15 and it lives in flash 01:12:36 yet it's XT ? is in the ram space 01:12:51 scratchpad hex. 20004E0C ok. 01:13:22 \ Write buffer 01:13:23 \ $f0 scratchpad 0 + c! ok. 01:13:23 \ $f1 scratchpad 1 + c! 01:13:23 \ read buffer 01:13:23 \ scratchpad 0 + c@ hex. 000000F0 ok. 01:13:23 \ scratchpad 1 + c@ hex. 000000F1 ok. 01:14:17 oops 01:14:34 I mean 'scratchpad' reports an address in the ramspace 01:14:48 it's XT is definitely in flash 01:14:51 ' scratchpad hex. 0001677E ok. 01:15:41 what is this XT thing 01:16:26 execution token 01:16:29 I think 01:16:33 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection) 01:16:52 Ahh but of course 01:16:57 Those things 01:17:00 it's just the memory address that the Word is run from 01:17:42 "words" displays all the parts of each word 01:17:55 Hmm 01:18:05 Yeah I should get around to mincing with that kind of thing 01:18:16 whereas my "words4" just displays 4 columns of word names only 01:18:19 This whole thing was all rather rushed 01:18:48 amazing you built it so fast, no wonder they want you bad at 'that other place' 01:19:28 I am a trained monkey at work pretty much 01:19:39 Not really doing any pcb/proper cool shit 01:19:46 doesnt seem to have held you back 01:19:57 quite the reverse 01:20:15 Well yeah nah one must poke and prod and satisfy curiosity and scratch itches 01:20:25 must one ? 01:20:31 I reckons 01:20:48 What else is there to do.. watch TV or something ? 01:20:49 many people Ive met dont seem aware itches exist 01:21:24 Yeah it is kind of odd, that 01:21:28 or their itches are watching tv 01:21:55 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 01:23:12 now I'm old I talk to a lot of old people utterly confused and lost in the world of computers and the internet. Oddly these were the same young people telling me they weren't interested in 'computers and shit' and 'didnt need them' 20 years ago 01:23:53 at the time their itches were tv, sports and beer 01:24:03 buffer: is an ANS addition 01:24:12 What is an ANS addition 01:24:23 Oh that standard thingy eh ? 01:24:34 rdrop-exit, you'd think that ANS invented everything in Forth ? 01:24:43 something that was added by ANS standard Forth 01:25:06 BUFFER: provides a means of defining an uninitialized buffer. In systems that use a single memory space, this can effectively be defined as: 01:25:09 : BUFFER: ( u "" -- ; -- addr ) CREATE ALLOT 01:25:11 ; 01:25:23 However, many systems profit from a separation of uninitialized and initialized data areas. Such systems can implement BUFFER: so that it allocates memory from a separate uninitialized memory area. Embedded systems can take advantage of the lack of initialization of the memory area while hosted systems are permitted to ALLOCATE a buffer. A system may select a region of memory for performance reasons. A 01:25:29 detailed knowledge of the memory allocation within the system is required to provide a version of BUFFER: that can take advantage of the system. 01:25:32 It should be noted that the memory buffer provided by BUFFER: is not initialized by the system and that if the application requires it to be initialized, it is the responsibility of the application to initialize it. 01:26:26 Hmm 01:26:35 Note: all of the above is a quote from the ANS standard 01:26:38 Well initializing things is not really a drama is it 01:26:59 I'm usually befuddled by the ANS explanation 01:27:19 I don't care for ANS myself, I ignore most of it 01:27:25 doe they mean RAM by "uninitialized" ? 01:27:30 -e 01:28:03 they mean that there's no guarantee about what's in it when you boot up 01:29:03 presumably to contrast with something that gets it's initial value from ROM/Flash 01:29:48 or the reset routine 01:33:10 rdrop-exit, so what do you get up to on the daily? Are you a forth nerd at work ? 01:33:21 I'm retired 01:33:57 Work is only a distant memory 01:34:06 Lucky bugger :) 01:34:36 I just take it easy 01:34:54 :) 01:35:07 Nice stuff :) 01:36:01 Right now I'm doing a full rewrite of an old Forth 01:36:42 at a very leisurely pace 01:36:51 redocumenting as I go along 01:37:08 Nerd :P 01:37:22 Nah thats cool 01:37:42 I'm enjoying it :) 01:44:46 When I'm done with my revamp, I will likely focus on umbilical assembly for RISC-V 01:46:36 --- join: ryke joined #forth 01:49:43 rdrop-exit, awesome, please dont hesitate to bug me if I can be of assistance as Im working with RISC-V atm 01:49:57 I am not entirely sure what that all means, but sounds constructive :) 01:50:28 jsoft, youre working with Cortex-M ARM atm 01:50:34 in the stm32f051 01:50:58 Yeah? 01:51:03 RISC-V is another type of microprocessor 'architecture' 01:51:21 as in what arm is ? 01:51:22 thats all 01:51:40 yeah, ARM stands for 'advanced Risc Machines" 01:51:53 and was first used in the BBC 'acorn' 01:52:06 tp, I'm sure I'll take you up on that at the moment. Initially my focus will be on understanding the ins and out of their draft debug standard. 01:52:13 Hmm I was not aware of this informations 01:52:33 replace "at the moment" with "eventually" 01:52:43 rdrop-exit, ... always the consummate professional Zen Fort Guru! 01:53:31 you flatter me :) 01:53:31 Hmm 01:53:41 lol\ 01:53:50 jsoft, ARM is unique in that the Architecture design is all they do, ARM then license their designs to various chip makers who add their own peripherals as ARM is only the "core" 01:54:28 STM add their own peripherals, as do NXP or Microchip and so on 01:54:49 Microchip do arm now ? 01:54:51 it's the same with RISC-V except the design is 'open' so anyone can use it 01:55:03 Microchip have done arm for a decade 01:55:08 Really? 01:55:14 with the "SAM" series 01:55:17 yeah 01:55:18 Ooooh 01:55:24 Oh ok, Never new that 01:55:28 lol, new 01:55:38 I am an england brofessor over here 01:55:41 jsoft, there are so many 'things' to learn! 01:56:17 Nah I've actually only ever used 8 bit pics. They seem to be mighty fine for for everything I have wanted to do with them 01:56:42 ARM is somewhat unique in that it has a method to 'turn on/off' peripherals and hence save power, so ARM became synonymous with 'low power' mcu's 01:57:39 Only really used an ARM for a DSP thing. Essentially I was on a course as part of work, and some egg smugly said that 'you need to spend years at university to make a digital filter'. And so I got drunk that evening and wrote a low pass filter on an F0 discovery, and then a week later made an F7 based thing with an oled display where different filter types can be selected. 01:57:49 Im not sure if 'low power' was just a byproduct of ARM not having their own peripherals and providing clocks that can be turned on/off to the chip makers 01:58:25 But yeah, if I can get a grip of the L0 series, I think I might replace my current batch of 8 bit pic based sensor boards 01:58:31 but youre using a ARM for your clock also 01:58:46 Well yeah I guess that too 01:59:12 nothing wrong with PIC, I have a couple of hundred PICS in stock 01:59:21 Yeah I don't find anything wrong with pic 01:59:27 but, I like this mecrisp thing 01:59:45 And it would be nice to develop future low power projects using forth 01:59:53 but I never use them now because my own STM32 development environment shits on anything PIC 02:00:01 Yerp 02:00:11 Yeah nah this forth thingy is quite the shiny thing 02:00:32 there is a *excellent Forth for PIC, it's called "flashforth" 02:00:32 Its quite fun to develop in 02:00:48 made by Michael Nordstrom 02:00:48 Yeah I remember you mentioning that, except there was some limitation to it, cant compile to ram or something 02:00:59 that's it 02:01:09 Yeah I like this compiling to ram business 02:01:22 it's very handy and I use it all the time 02:01:45 I only compile to flash when Words are tested and debugged 02:01:52 Yeah 02:02:16 thats the essence of Forth, being able to "talk to the machine" 02:02:17 and I load about 20 "development aid" Words at the start of each project 02:02:28 all into flash 02:02:36 rdrop-exit, absolutely 02:03:05 this same feature is what the micropython people love 02:03:26 micro python eh 02:03:37 albeit at the cost of another 200kB flash and a M4 02:03:42 that sounds like a bit of a gumby development environment 02:03:53 it's actuallt damn slick 02:04:15 --- join: dys joined #forth 02:04:16 Is it? 02:04:19 Is it nice and fast ? 02:04:21 for instance they have a flawless *full screen* editor that would make rdrop-exit jealous 02:04:44 what do you mean a full screen editor 02:05:02 it's speed is the same interactively, but no, in execution it's at least 30x slower than Forth on the same hardware 02:05:11 only if it uses Wordstar key bindings ;) 02:05:15 haha 02:05:23 rdrop-exit, it's really slick 02:05:39 Yeah 02:05:50 Nah I think I will pass on micropython 02:05:59 jsoft, the cursor can be moved all around the code ON the mcu and edited 02:06:10 Ok that's spiffy 02:06:12 But meh 02:06:17 oh, Forth is TONS better 02:06:40 but I see the attraction kids have for micropython 02:06:50 My goal is zero footprint on the RISC-V 02:06:59 nice 02:06:59 zero footprint ? 02:07:07 How does that work 02:07:10 Zero flash ? 02:07:14 youll be on a par with mecrisp-across on msp430 then ? 02:07:44 except I won't need external tools, like gnu-whatever 02:07:45 no, rdrop-exit means the host Forth will not need any code on the target 02:08:16 Not need any code.. I still dont get it 02:08:28 rdrop-exit, thats only needed to compile Mecrisp-Stellaris which comes with the binaries anyway 02:08:41 jsoft, I plan to leverage the debug interface to lay down code on the target as needed 02:09:03 Talk to me like am a 2 year old 02:09:08 rdrop-exit, are we giving out prizes for drunken Kiwis that don't get stuff tonight ? 02:09:09 I still don't get what you are getting at 02:09:14 lo 02:09:27 jsoft, I have been ... ;-) 02:09:32 l:P 02:09:56 jsoft, you have to up your game to keep up with rdrop-exit ! 02:10:06 They're working on a standardized debug infrastructure and interfacing standard for the RISC-V 02:10:20 I am missing something obvious here. 02:10:22 rdrop-exit, it's not set in stone yet ? 02:10:35 What is the difference between flashing the uC and using this debug interface gizmo 02:10:40 jsoft, rdrop-exit is talking about his 'tethered Forth 02:10:53 And what is tethered forth 02:11:01 To the RISC-V my development host on the PC will be seen as a debugger by the RISC-V chip 02:11:12 jsoft, https://mecrisp-across-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/index.html 02:11:38 through the debug interface I can lay down and test code, write to flash, etc... 02:11:52 My Forth is on my PC 02:12:06 talks to the target via a serial tether 02:12:18 a tethered Forth would suit me fine in 90% of my uses 02:12:57 In theory I should be able to talk to the RISC-V and develop on it without using any external tools 02:13:05 Oh I see, so there is no compiler on the actual target? 02:13:08 (interactively) 02:13:12 corrext 02:13:15 Ahh right 02:13:20 Right 02:13:21 correction: correct 02:13:25 lol 02:13:31 :)) 02:13:50 Hmm 02:14:00 Nerd :P 02:14:38 I don't need to start by flashing a hex file using external tools, I want to talk to a board right out of the box 02:15:10 as they used to say, plug n' play 02:15:15 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 02:16:03 tp, it's a draft standard at the moment 02:16:26 but I'm sure major parts of it are already implemented in some products 02:16:28 in the case of mecrisp-across I can plug in a virgin blank MSP-430 and it will immediately work 02:16:51 I started looking at the MSP-430's, they are quite the fancy pants aye 02:17:12 that's the idea, no need for gnu-tools or any other tool chain 02:17:28 Im just a user, I only know how to operate mecrisp-across, I don't know the full details of how it works 02:17:53 jsoft, MSP430 is unique to me in a couple of ways 02:17:53 magic, of course 02:18:23 1) MSP430 is 16 bits, and has the nicest Assembly one could ask for 02:19:34 2) MSP430 have tightly integrated peripherals, unlike cortex-m where low power modes take a month to learn, MSP430 is a single command to achieve low power 02:20:21 3) MSP430 comes in DIP packages which some people love 02:20:45 4) MSP430 is very low power, probably among the lowest of the low 02:21:39 4) MSP430 uses a robust flashing mechanism, fast and flawless, unlike SWD which I think isnt as robust 02:21:48 er make the last one 5) 02:22:10 ok, done 02:22:11 downsides are I hate the Ti documentation 02:22:35 and MSP430 are more expensive than stm32f 02:30:23 Sometimes development time is more costly 02:30:36 Do you play chess tp ? 02:30:57 How about a nice game of Thermo-Nuclear War? 02:31:26 A strange game. The only way to win is to have another vodka 02:31:30 jsoft, I do 02:31:36 :) 02:31:41 tp, fancy a game? 02:31:48 jsoft, but Im pretty usless at chess 02:31:54 tp, yeah same, but its fun 02:32:01 jsoft, nah, I live to design 02:32:12 What is this? Chicken noises? 02:32:14 :D 02:33:53 Id rather have a good game of "iourbanterror" 02:34:37 i prefer to see my opponent blown to bits by a grenade Ive just lobbed into a window of the roome hes trying to snipe me from 02:35:11 urban terror eh? 02:35:31 well I havent played it in years but it's the only game that would tempt me 02:35:57 I've laughed so much playing it that I rekon Ive added 2 years to my life 02:36:02 What is involved in setting it up ? 02:36:21 apt-get install iourbanterror 02:36:26 oh really? 02:36:33 Sounds like a chore :P 02:36:39 I'm assuning you use a debian based Linux > 02:36:42 ? 02:37:09 There must be some 3rd party repo for that 02:37:10 yeah, pretty difficult, 3 kiwi IT people could probably manage it in a couple of days tho 02:37:32 lol, it's in my FreeBSD repo 02:37:54 psearch urban 02:37:54 Oh 02:37:54 games/iourbanterror Quake 3 engine modified for Urban Terror (based on ioquake3) 02:37:54 games/iourbanterror-server Quake 3 engine modified for Urban Terror (based on ioquake3) 02:37:54 games/quake3-ut Quake III Arena mod: Urban Terror 02:37:54 games/urbanterror-data Standalone realism based mod originally for Quake III Arena 02:38:11 it has the best game play ever! 02:38:29 it's built for gameplay, not weapons realism 02:38:51 man have I has months of fun playing it 02:39:08 ARe you keen for a game then? 02:39:21 there are a ton of online servers you can join, or you can install your own which I recommend 02:39:48 yeah, i'll install it and play, but we arent ready to join a free online server I think 02:40:01 if youre not up to scratch they will kick you 02:40:07 Really? 02:40:13 yeah 02:40:14 Do you have your own router ? 02:40:17 Are there bots ? 02:40:22 Can you host a game ? 02:40:32 yep, yep, maybe 02:40:50 I used to host a server 02:41:19 and played with my friends until we got good enuf to join the main game servers, it was awesome 02:41:20 Perhaps not tonight, but if you can organise one, on your own pc or whatever, we should have a game some time 02:41:28 ok, it's a deal 02:41:42 there are some great servers in NZ 02:42:11 once you install the game it will search for servers and give you a list 02:42:29 Im keen 02:42:35 I'll play that if you join lichess 02:42:48 I used to set up a 'practice room' and play there for a few weeks to get people up to speed 02:43:01 Chess is awesome, and they have chess puzzles on there which are quite fun to do when you have a spare 10 minutes or wahtever 02:43:10 nah, Id rather program than play chess, no deal! 02:43:32 Sounds like you have been eating too many vegetables :P 02:43:52 at 65 I have nothing left to prove ... except that I can get out of bed unaided ;-) 02:43:59 :D 02:44:14 nah, just a few vegies, no carbs 02:44:54 Nah cool though 02:44:57 Im keen 02:45:03 vegies arent the problem anyway, it's "highly processed carbs" that are killing people 02:45:26 I personally don't get affected too much by vegies 02:45:32 vegies have tons of fibre which makes them lo-gi 02:45:44 It think fiber is not required at all 02:45:52 I can tell, but I admire self confessed meateaters! 02:46:17 jsoft, I agree, but I like some vegies anyway 02:46:28 you drink alcohol, I eat vegies. 02:46:38 :) 02:46:41 we all have our own vices ;-) 02:47:24 I always have some small amount of vegies with my MEAT! 02:48:03 and I only eat kangaroo or beef rump etc, no processed meats 02:48:16 no processed foods 02:48:35 I have never tried kangaroo 02:48:39 and I grow 90% of the vegies I eat 02:48:51 I actually don't mind gardening eh 02:48:58 it's exactly like beef, just more chewy and zero fat 02:49:13 Zero fat? Cant be eating too much if it then I guess 02:49:14 kangaroo is the highest protein of any meat 02:49:24 I need my fat 02:49:31 we all need out fat! 02:49:34 our 02:49:53 so just have some other fat with the kangaroo, problem solved 02:50:03 I would suppose so 02:50:07 Oi have you tried duck fat? 02:50:13 no 02:50:13 Thats quite interestings 02:50:25 You owe it to forth to try duck fat 02:50:34 hahah, we are off topic again! 02:50:37 :D 02:51:05 * tp manages to duck that line of discussion 02:51:15 Oooh I see what you did there 02:51:34 so how is your Forth project going ? 02:51:41 what remaining to do ? 02:51:44 Its already done 02:51:48 finished ? 02:51:50 Yes 02:51:56 tells the time etc ? 02:52:05 It was done as of 5am on thursday 02:52:16 after you give it to your friend, do we get a pic of the clock front ? 02:52:33 xtal added etc ? 02:52:38 Hardware wise, it needs a crystal. So I will just make a new pcb, better laid out even, and release that, perhaps on hacker news or whatever as you suggested 02:52:45 then ist NOT done! 02:52:49 forth is 02:52:54 oh ok 02:52:58 fair enuf 02:52:58 you said forth project :P 02:53:17 well all *my* Forth prokects involve hardware 02:53:41 to me Forth IS hardware 02:53:56 is all about hardware I mean 02:54:24 Ill see about installing a URT server tomorrow 02:54:58 I have a few friends who have been after me to do that so they can blow me to bits or die trying also 02:55:05 :D 02:55:21 Well it sounds like operation pick on tp is in the works :D 02:55:29 caution ... it is *very* addictive 02:55:39 hah, I can handle it 02:56:31 it's crazy actually, once you get good enough you can join teams online and after playing with a team for a while you get to know them, even tho you have never spoken 02:56:47 you even develop unspoken strategies working together 02:58:12 Sounds good 02:58:23 oh, the game comes with a built in server and bots to practice on 02:58:40 so set that up and get the hang of it 02:59:27 teams also play 'capture the flag' 02:59:53 Yep done that kind of game before 03:00:04 Its cool aye, online stuff like that 03:00:09 it's a heap of fun in the right team 03:00:16 it's truely awesome 03:00:59 the game maps (locations) are really well done, places like Ridyah .. 03:01:14 or old established european towns 03:01:43 I havent played for over 5 years 03:09:07 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 03:11:20 --- join: jedb joined #forth 03:12:30 --- quit: jedb_ (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 03:44:35 --- quit: dne (Remote host closed the connection) 03:47:02 --- join: dne joined #forth 04:23:41 --- quit: nonlinear[m] (Quit: killed) 04:23:43 --- quit: siraben (Quit: killed) 04:23:44 --- quit: alexshpilkin (Quit: killed) 04:24:09 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in) 04:37:24 --- join: Guest16939 joined #forth 05:20:31 --- join: jimt[m] joined #forth 05:20:31 --- join: nonlinear[m] joined #forth 05:20:31 --- join: siraben joined #forth 07:36:22 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 08:20:00 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 08:22:39 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 08:23:07 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 08:26:23 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 08:33:29 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 08:44:55 Hi [[https://xkcd.com/256/][IRC Isles]]. 09:08:49 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 11:19:24 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 11:44:49 --- join: ryke joined #forth 12:14:48 --- quit: begin (Quit: ) 13:02:25 --- quit: Jookia (Quit: Jookia) 13:04:18 --- join: Jookia joined #forth 13:23:37 tp, are you around sir? 13:23:53 I got qemu installed on Ubuntu but cant find it from the command line 13:25:17 do I have to cd into some directory first? 13:44:25 MrMobius, bak 13:45:05 MrMobius, which qemu have you installed ? 13:47:25 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 14:04:29 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 14:09:15 I tried apt-get install qemu 14:11:10 seems to have worked but typing qemu or qemu-static-arm results in command not found 14:13:56 MrMobius, try "apt-cache search qemu" 14:14:10 then you will get a list of available packages to install 14:15:24 MrMobius, you want to install the "qemu-user-static" package 14:16:01 or whatever Linux names their qemu static package 14:16:41 ok cool 14:19:49 woohoo, im to a forth prompt 14:20:07 wtg! 14:21:21 now all the arcane secrets of the Mecrisp-Stellaris will be revealed to you in their naked glory! 14:21:37 only took about 4 hours 14:21:45 hopefully the next 10 minutes are worth it 14:21:56 well youre hamstrung by windows, so it's to be expected 14:22:07 it's a 5 minute job on Linux 14:23:21 you're complaining that it took you 4 hours to dig a hole with a windows shovel that I can do in my unix backhoe in 5 minutes ;-) 14:24:06 at least now you have a vm running linux, you can run Linux apps in a few minutes 14:25:07 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 14:25:29