00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.11.26 00:06:39 c[] 00:06:55 good afternoon Forthwrights :) 00:07:59 good afternoon Zen Forth Master! 00:08:19 Hi Forth Master Technician! 00:11:36 good afternoon 00:11:49 Hi presiden! 00:13:05 rdrop-exit, I finished my 'stack sensitive prompt' https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/stack-sensitive-prompt.html#ssp 00:13:27 opening 00:13:32 it's a small project I know you dont have a prompt, or a stack, but it's working well for me 00:14:06 rdrop-exit, does your Forth even have Forth ? ;-) 00:14:38 :)) 00:15:02 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 00:16:10 I'm not sure I understand your stack pictures, e.g. does green actually push two items onto the data stack? 00:21:07 green isnt in use ? 00:21:25 the colors are just ansi escape sequences 00:23:13 yes, but your stack pictures say red ( -- cursor color ) which implies two items are pushed onto the data stack, cursor, then color 00:23:17 Hello forthers :) 00:23:31 sorry "colour" 00:23:35 Hi mtsd! 00:23:39 rdrop-exit, ahh, true 00:23:52 mtsd, g'day ! 00:24:03 G'day tp! 00:24:15 G'day rdrop-exit! 00:24:19 :) 00:28:52 your "0 >" is redundant 00:29:43 depth returns a +n in most Forths 00:30:25 you "depth if" accomplishes the same thing as your code in this particular case 00:30:34 oh! 00:30:59 but I have a monthly quota of "0" to use, and Im behind 00:31:23 besides, my code isnt for Forth Gurus, it's for beginners 00:31:47 :) check your Forths docs though, maybe Mecrisp is different 00:32:25 depth ( - - +n ) Gives number of single-cell stack items. 00:32:42 there you go 00:32:44 which includes 0 00:33:02 so just IF will do ? 00:33:06 yes 00:33:14 oh ok :) 00:33:21 I can relate to that 00:33:38 you only need "0>" or "0 >" if depth could return a negative, which in this case it can't 00:34:32 I'm betting removing the " 0 > " makes no difference to the generated assembly 00:34:44 ill try it and see 00:35:09 Depends on your Forth's peephole optimizer 00:36:54 Only a fairly sophisticated one would optimize that particular scenario away 00:39:00 Not worth the extra optimizer complexity 00:39:14 it's identical 00:39:23 cool 00:39:25 Mecrisp-Stellaris oftyen does this 00:39:59 I realise Ive been tardy ( as in this case) optomise it and find it makes no difference 00:40:52 matthias loves algorithms, it's his favorite thing 00:41:22 --- quit: mtsd (Remote host closed the connection) 00:41:37 he even has a 'highest level optomization word' but Ive never tried it 00:41:49 I think I'll try it now and see what happens 00:42:35 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 00:42:53 It requires the optimizer being aware that depth can't possibly return a negative value, which is an extra layer of complexity 00:44:18 My forths don't have depth 00:45:13 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection) 00:45:27 Actually, I should say my latest Forth doesn't have depth 00:45:50 it made no difference here, still 88 bytes for the word 00:46:33 yeah, of course, it can only be 0 or a positive number 00:47:06 I never even stopped to think that the "0 >" was redundant 00:47:23 but in the end, the machine code is the same 00:47:49 and if the source is a bit clearer with the " 0 > " for some, then it cant hurt ? 00:47:50 Optimizers are nice to have, but one shouldn't count on them too much 00:48:27 It does hurt IMO, because it's misleading, it implies a negative is possible 00:48:36 Mecrisp-Stellaris is the only Forth I use on cortex-m, it's the only one thats very complete and stable 00:49:53 my lack of maths is telling, perhaps >= 1 IF ? 00:50:06 as 0 isnt a negative 00:50:32 "depth if" is sufficient and clear 00:50:57 ok 00:51:28 but these are nitpicks of course :) 00:52:09 well, I can't improve if I dont have advice from my betters :) 00:52:18 Ill take that anyday 00:52:40 I wish to get better at forth, not stay the same 00:53:46 how come there's a carriage return after the prompt? 00:56:53 are your prompts always immediately followed by a carriage return? 00:57:16 yeah 00:57:25 I c 00:59:17 thats how Ive always known it 00:59:28 I did mofify the core code today tho 01:00:06 for years a empty stack looked like this for me ".s [0 ] 42 ok" 01:00:13 today I thought (for the first time) "WTF ... 42 ??? this is Matthias idea of a joke Ill bet!" 01:00:20 and sure enuf, instead of initialising the TOS of stack with "0", he used "42" 01:00:21 :)) 01:00:48 his woek is full of his sense of humour 01:00:51 work 01:01:37 there is even a 'easter egg' in his source, but Ive never stumbled across it 01:02:00 not really thing, I just want my hardware to work 01:03:17 Magic numbers, like $ deadbeef on a 16-bit system 01:03:50 I came up with $ 1cedc0ffee4babe5 for my 64-bit Forth 01:04:01 Iced Coffee for Babes 01:04:35 * $ deadbeef on a 32-bit system 01:04:35 he does call it a 'magic number' too! 01:05:05 Useful for debugging, fill memory with magic numbers 01:05:13 yeah deadbeef is a 32 bit hex number 01:05:26 we use it in networking for fake MAC numberfs 01:05:37 numbers 01:05:49 Some people use dec1de2c0de4f00d on 64-bit 01:05:56 hahaah 01:06:19 thats so 7337 dud3! 01:06:31 I've gotten used to $ 1cedc0ffee4babe5 01:06:59 my wife likes iced coffee 01:07:21 so I could use $deadbeef for a TOS ? 01:07:47 hmm 01:08:44 you could fill some memory areas at boot, even the stacks, with a magic number, for debugging purposes 01:08:57 yeah, thats what he does 01:09:06 as theyre random on boot anyway 01:09:48 tho I dont know why he shows a number when the stack is 0 01:10:06 why print eanything when stack = 0 ? 01:10:24 .s [0 ] 85 ok. 01:10:25 Reasons 01:10:36 kinda weird 01:10:47 reset MS RA 2.5.1 tpmod for STM32F103 by Matthias Koch 01:10:47 .s [0 ] 104 ok. 01:11:21 jsoft, yeah I dont presume to know much about Mecrisp-Stellaris, it's so far outa my league 01:11:50 my .s always prints the top 6 items, since the stack a circular stack is never full or empty 01:12:08 6 is just a default 01:12:27 rdrop-exit, but on boot, arent those 6 items meaningless ? 01:12:51 and if so, why print them ? 01:12:57 rdrop-exit: but stacks aren't circular? 01:13:19 circular stacks are 01:13:26 heh 01:13:44 Chuck's stacks are circular 01:14:15 brb 01:16:12 it's just more streamlined than using regular stacks, but I can understand circular stacks aren't for everybody 01:17:29 they started out as an experiment for me, but I haven't so far felt the need to go back to normal stacks, maybe one day if I get tired of them 01:18:23 rdrop-exit, does it lead to 'circular reasoning' ? 01:18:36 :) 01:18:57 it just makes the Forth (or Forth VM, or Forth chip...) simpler 01:20:24 but you don't get any help from the system if you overflow or underflow, since there is no such thing in principle with a circular stack 01:20:45 no more overflows or underflows!!! AWESOME! 01:21:27 your logic may overflow or underflow, but physically the stack itself can't 01:22:02 as long as tha stack is happy, I'm happy! 01:22:14 So you need to take much more care in your coding 01:23:25 as long as I'm at peace with my inner stack, I'm good 01:23:43 is your inner stack circular? :) 01:25:29 In principle, at the chip level, you don't even need a stack pointer with a circular stack, you could just use a very (very!) wide shift register to implement a stack 01:26:03 I like to think my ID is well rounded 01:26:36 rdrop-exit, Im surprised youre not into FPGA's and Forth 01:27:03 if I was ever goint to make my own forth, Id probably start with a very fast FPGA 01:27:15 600 MHz 01:27:46 amd it would speak Forth natively 01:28:27 I have a couple of stack machine implementations in verilog, but FPGAs are not a priority for me at the moment 01:29:21 i knew it! 01:29:42 If I suddenly get hit by a product idea that would benefit from an FPGA, then my interest would likely be rekindled 01:30:42 getting old, and keep with everything at once 01:30:54 yeah, know what ya mean 01:32:01 * can't keep up 01:32:20 I like getting old in a lot of respects 01:32:46 Me too, jsoft 01:33:22 Being young was difficult in many ways. Getting old seems easier, for me 01:33:30 I like the freedom of being a crazy old coot with no responsibilities 01:33:31 Yeah. 01:33:59 I still have responsibilities, but also have a 'yeah nah you can fuck off.' type attitude 01:34:16 Against stupid shit I mean. 01:34:18 I always had that attitude :) 01:34:30 Well yeah same I guess 01:34:39 But now I somehow can get away with it 01:36:37 It's nice being an old curmudgeon 01:37:39 i never minded growing older, it's getting there I hate 01:38:15 lol 01:38:38 I've noticed I have lost my ability to tolerate stupid shit 01:38:42 Like, meetings 01:39:11 Or any situation where people talk a lot in a verbose fashion 01:39:18 I visually get agitated 01:39:21 Becoming more focused with age. Less time to waste 01:40:25 I have too many interests 01:41:19 bbiab 01:42:13 tp, https://imgur.com/a/ojAmhg3 :) RGB Led Clock gizmo is getting closer to being sent away for production :) 01:43:20 jsoft, looking good! 01:43:34 mtsd, so true 01:43:46 at 65 i cant stand younger waffling on 01:43:55 wasting my time 01:44:26 I just say, please get to the point, I'm not getting any younger waiting for you 01:44:29 tp, the most annoying thing is 'blah blah blah blah blah blah <5 minutes later> blah blah blah' 01:45:31 jsoft, just hold up a hand like a stop sign and clearly say " undcerstood" 01:45:37 understood 01:46:02 some people dont recognise that youve understood them is all 01:47:01 tp, yeah but in meetings 01:47:43 do it three as well 01:47:44 tp, i've done tapping my fingers, twiddling my thumbs, yawning LOUDLY, all coupled with outrageous expressions of annoyance (so I have been told) 01:47:51 embarras the shit out of them 01:48:30 tp, yeah these are meetings where I have people who are all 'higher ranking' than I am, and would get their nickers in a twist if I essentially told them to shut the fuck up 01:48:33 well intelligent people dont take morons well 01:49:23 politics! 01:49:57 MAGA 01:49:57 :D 01:50:00 I never cared, I rode right over them, but I didnt make any friends 01:50:21 Yeah I am my own best friend. 01:50:26 I just wish to get things done, not spend the entire day talking about it. 01:50:47 If they hire me to do a job, then let me do the job 01:50:53 Id say to a MD "fire me or get out of my office, decide right now" 01:50:57 I have few actual friends, ones who I can talk to about interesting shit. 01:51:16 they mostly avoided me 01:51:20 tp, yeah I am in a different situation. 01:51:30 Same here, jsoft. I have a good friends. Going back a long time 01:51:30 tp, I get what you mean though. 01:51:39 i was on a salary, family, paying off a house 01:51:43 I didnt care 01:52:09 but thats just me, mr unsociable 01:52:48 id really get gnarly if someone wasted my time, cant explain it 02:34:57 Yeah I get pissed off, really. Like, as if something was itching me and I could not scratch it... ( in the case of some big wig or someone I cant tell to fuck up ) 02:35:22 Clearly though, it must be vape time. 02:35:22 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 02:38:20 mtsd, ans jsoft are the kind of people Id enjoy working with 02:38:38 no fuss, get the job done, go home 02:39:17 That would be great! I try to work that way, as much as I can 02:39:44 Not always up to me though, and I do get dragged into long meetings from time to time 02:41:07 yeah 02:42:31 Maybe starting a global, Forth based, software business together. To the point and efficient :) 02:43:03 lol, Forth is for loners, we cant agree on anything! 02:43:19 we do our own thing and to hell with everyone else 02:43:53 Forth is for fierclu independent people I think 02:44:05 Forth is for fiercely independent people I think 02:46:15 Six people have died, more than 600 homes have been destroyed and almost 1.5 million hectares of land have burned in the state I live in this bushfire season. 02:47:34 haha, yes, you are right! Forth is for one-man businesses :) 02:48:08 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 02:48:10 We are hermits, in that regard 02:49:13 yep. Ive never met such diverse independent people as forthers before 02:49:19 it's fantastic! 02:50:57 Seems to be good, technical, discussions though. No flaming, just the pros and cons about a certain issue 02:51:18 Respecting each other's differences and the different solutions 02:51:56 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 02:53:16 absolutely 02:53:55 The many variations of Forth 02:54:28 no 2 forths are the same 02:55:46 Amazing variety, from a simple, basic, concept. Malleable idea, Forth 02:56:42 it is amazing 03:01:48 Placing ground plane stiching vias, the final step ! :D 03:02:10 Before sending it off and realizing instantly afterwards I have fucked something up, that is! :D 03:02:35 better get a couple of pcbs made because the first one might be wrecked removing dead leds! 03:14:41 I get them in 5's 03:14:50 And I has access to hot air station :) 03:20:39 --- quit: cheater (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03:46:41 Fuck me. $125 AU for the clock PCB's. 05:22:16 --- quit: iyzsong (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 05:43:40 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 05:56:39 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 06:05:19 --- join: mayuresh joined #forth 06:09:41 hello everybody. :) 06:09:59 is anyone active out here, right now? 06:10:34 it's been 5 years since i stopped hanging out around in this channel. 06:10:39 hi mayuresh 06:10:46 hey crc. :) 06:11:33 is that forth interest group based out of california still active? 06:13:15 --- join: inode joined #forth 06:15:09 svfig is still active 06:15:32 cool, off to getting myself subscribed to their mailing list. :) 06:15:32 https://svfig.github.io/ 06:25:24 alrighty, time for me to go as my battery is dying. 06:25:30 see you all later. 06:25:39 hope ttmrichter is still around. :) 06:25:41 --- quit: mayuresh (Quit: Leaving) 06:35:05 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 07:02:21 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 07:10:54 --- quit: jedb (Remote host closed the connection) 07:11:09 --- join: jedb joined #forth 07:17:53 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 07:20:27 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: Leaving) 08:02:44 --- quit: inode (Quit: ) 08:24:55 --- join: CORDIC joined #forth 08:29:02 --- quit: DKordic (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 11:30:42 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 11:47:30 I believe so 11:47:59 not sure how long I've been here but I've definitely seen him around? 11:55:16 svfig puts meeting videos on youtube 12:17:56 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 14:07:10 --- join: ryke joined #forth 15:05:43 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 15:30:01 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 15:37:02 Reuters -> U.S.-based chip-tech group moving to Switzerland over trade curb fears 15:37:02 Main point : 15:37:02 "The nonprofit RISC-V Foundation (pronounced risk-five) wants to ensure that universities, governments and companies outside the United States can help develop its open-source technology, its Chief Executive Calista Redmond said in an interview with Reuters." 15:37:45 I've just installed Mecrisp-Stellaris on a RISC-V and it's pretty slick so far 15:50:13 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 16:41:58 --- join: cheater joined #forth 17:39:09 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 18:19:30 --- join: [1]MrMobius joined #forth 18:22:07 --- quit: MrMobius (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 18:22:58 --- join: MrMobius joined #forth 18:24:19 --- quit: [1]MrMobius (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 19:01:49 --- join: ryke joined #forth 20:32:52 --- quit: oxford (Remote host closed the connection) 20:33:59 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 20:35:25 --- join: oxford joined #forth 22:00:38 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 22:41:19 greetings Forthlings :) 22:52:29 --- quit: tp (Remote host closed the connection) 22:53:34 --- join: Guest61717 joined #forth 22:54:24 --- quit: Guest61717 (Changing host) 22:54:24 --- join: Guest61717 joined #forth 22:54:55 wb tp 22:55:05 --- nick: Guest61717 -> tp 22:55:16 ta tabemann 22:55:50 tabemann, how goes your stack sensitive prompt today ? 22:56:01 it's working well 22:56:08 awesome 22:56:34 I'm writing a ihex 04 Extended Address Type generator atm 22:57:20 planning on generating some Intel HEX files? 22:57:27 i have been for ages 22:57:50 but I decided to refactor and cater for flash up to 1mB 22:58:44 I have a Word called "clone" that I wrote a few months back that gets the target to spew it's dictionary to the terminal in iHex 22:59:27 my terminal then captures the iHex in a log, processes it and creates a cortex-m binary file 22:59:45 that binary is then a 100% clone of the target 22:59:57 but curently it only generates up to 64K of data I presume 23:00:29 it was generating up to 640gB 23:00:33 erk 23:00:36 640kB 23:00:46 depending on the distionary size 23:01:16 but in reality the biggest chip I have has 1mB of flash 23:01:33 so I decided to refactor and cater for the largest chip (a M4) 23:02:12 I also have a chip with 194kB of flash but I havent fully ported it to my system 23:03:03 you know how it is... you look at old code and say "thats crap, I'm refactoring until it's something I'd be willing to share" ? 23:09:08 back 23:09:43 * tabemann just discovered that his build code leaves a pile of crap on the stack 23:10:05 precisely because of the colored ok prompt 23:10:23 hahah, outstanding 23:11:05 the old "stackcrap" 23:31:14 okay, gonna hit the sack again 23:31:17 g'night 23:54:19 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.11.26