00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.11.13 00:21:09 --- join: f-a joined #forth 00:24:19 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 00:25:59 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 00:38:52 --- join: xek_ joined #forth 00:41:02 --- join: dys joined #forth 01:03:18 --- join: jackdani1l joined #forth 01:04:20 --- nick: jackdani1l -> jackdaniel 01:36:26 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 01:44:16 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 02:13:28 tp: i feel your pain 02:14:15 cheater, there is a lot of pain configuring the Cortex-M3 gpios in Forth for sure 02:14:41 i bet 02:14:45 hey, are you in the us? 02:14:55 or europe? or.. somewhere else 02:15:23 other stuff not so bad, but that chip still has a lot of bugs and limitations, even if it looks like a advanced alien spacecraft to Arduino AVR Mega users :) 02:15:25 --- part: jackdaniel left #forth 02:15:31 I'm in australia .. mate! 02:15:49 ahh ok 02:15:50 nice 02:15:53 it's 9:15 pm here 02:16:13 righ, thought you might be australian, given the time you're on normally 02:16:42 but I must say, Id use the STM32F103 in a heartbeat instead of AVR's or PIC's or anything pre 2011 02:16:48 lol 02:16:54 beggars can't be choosers 02:17:40 I have about 200 new PIC's in stock but I just cant drive myself to use them because of the serious lack of tools for them 02:18:44 I've ben building up my stm32 develop environment since 2014 and it's the best I've had, I just cant face not having it available for a new project 02:20:47 cheater, so what do you do if thats not confidential info ? 02:21:57 i program in haskell for a living 02:22:05 usually something to do with finance or cryptocurrencies 02:22:19 --- quit: f-a (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 02:22:33 starting a new job soon developing a haskell like language for smart contracts 02:23:10 wow, thats pretty non trivial 02:23:14 hbu? 02:23:17 no it's uh 02:23:20 not bad 02:23:40 thats good 02:24:18 --- join: f-a joined #forth 02:24:40 so no early burn out for you then ? 02:38:45 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 02:47:54 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 03:06:03 i've already done that a few times 03:06:14 it's less of an issue now 03:06:18 what about you? 03:06:22 what do you do? 03:07:30 tp: designing programming languages isn't too hard 03:07:44 you just gotta start trying to keep up with all the latest bullshit people come up with 03:07:53 because it's inevitably a huge time waste 03:08:05 I'm a nearly retired electronics technician 03:08:23 most of the time you don't need all that new fangled stuff, like eg turing completeness or peano arithmetic 03:08:33 cheater, lol, you have the voice of experience to me 03:08:49 the voice of bad experience 03:09:01 the voice of bad experiences * actually 03:09:02 bummer :( 03:09:05 lol 03:09:11 you just gotta know what'll suck 03:09:12 that's all 03:09:12 well we all have a few of those 03:09:50 biz is pretty hard thesedays, I feel sorry for the young people working themselves to death 03:10:23 I have a daughter thats at the top of her game in architecture, the pressure is humongous 03:10:45 oh yea 03:10:48 dude tell me about it 03:10:52 i've just had some windfall 03:10:56 but job wise this year was tough 03:11:00 oh nice 03:11:08 i've applied to like a bunch of companies 03:11:15 everyone expects so much, so soon 03:11:18 a dozen i went through recruiting with until the last step 03:11:21 and they all wasted my time 03:11:40 typical 03:11:41 c[] 03:11:57 "hi we want to hire you! yes, exactly you. please do this spec work for us. ok actually we're not looking to hire anyone and can't afford it" 03:12:07 1 week wasted 03:12:16 ouch 03:12:17 hey rdrop-exit, THAT'S your FORTH cup of coffee today! 03:12:40 ba-da-boom 03:13:03 cheater, start asking for a $50,000 interview bonus ;-) 03:13:35 yea... i might 03:14:12 I remember when *everyone* was placing orders that were *urgent* ... it was getting ridiculous so I started telling them there was a "urgent fee" 03:14:22 Never go through interviews, always get pirated 03:14:55 98% of my cuatomers upon hearing that became all 'ahh, is that right mate! no worries we can wait" 03:15:27 but 2% would immediately say "whats the EFT account for our payment" 03:15:36 At least that used to be the rule in my day 03:16:47 so i discovered that *everyone's* order is URGENT until urgent costs more 03:17:07 rdrop-exit, yeah, getting pirated is always best 03:17:47 when they say urgent, you reply show me the money, that's the ticket tp 03:18:31 I had a guy show up on a *horse* at my house one day and he said, "I want you to come and work in my brand new R&D lab" ... I was so impressed I said sure, and didnt even ask the salary, but it didnt matter, everything about that job was the most awesome EVER! 03:19:21 a horse is a horse, of course, of course... 03:19:25 rdrop-exit, yeah, money sorts them out 03:19:28 haha 03:19:46 Do you remember what that's from? 03:19:58 Me Ed\ 03:20:04 Mr Ed the series 03:20:08 correctamundo! 03:20:53 I had a customer phone me one day, he wanted me to repair his wifi network which was 150 km away, and it was about 3pm 03:21:14 I said no way, too far, too late, have a nice day 03:21:26 Did he send the Lear jet? 03:21:35 he replied, I can be there in 10 minutes and pick you up 03:21:47 I'm like ?? yeah how ? 03:21:52 ... helicopter 03:22:06 next best thing 03:22:19 and sure enuf 10 minutes later a helicopter does a tight turn over my house and lands next door in the grass 03:22:33 i hop in and a hour later I'm back home 03:22:36 and blows away your roof, oops 03:22:50 nah, was only a Robinson R2 03:22:53 R22 03:23:17 he later became a friend and taught me to fly it 03:23:29 talk about interesting people 03:23:56 cool 03:24:26 I've been pirated about 5 times so far, but at 65 I'm not anticipating it happening again 03:24:37 Arrh matey 03:24:46 ausie companies arent into hiring greyhairs 03:25:29 their loss 03:26:59 yeah, we dont have much left now anyway 03:27:15 ausie companies? 03:27:20 ;) 03:27:58 down under 03:28:10 yeah, most of our manufacturing has gone off shore now 03:28:16 mainly to China 03:28:55 --- quit: SysDsnEng (Quit: Leaving) 03:28:56 most of our call centres are in your country rdrop-exit 03:29:13 most of everybody's call centers are here 03:29:21 rdrop-exit, yeah, makes sense 03:29:52 tons of BPO companies 03:31:01 I've always wondered what the mfrs going off shore were thinking when they still operated here. When they retrenched their workforce making say 'garden hoses' for China, who did they think would be buying garden hoses in Australia ? 03:31:29 certainly not Australians with no jobs and no money 03:31:52 saves money 03:32:30 yeah, it's not like we have any water to spray out garden hoses anyway 03:33:11 it's level 3 restrictions here, hand watering 15 minutes only every second day ... 03:33:43 I remember the droughts in California 03:34:14 water rationing is a pain 03:34:39 dinner time, catch you all later 03:34:47 o/ 03:34:58 california hasn't got desalinsomething? 03:37:26 hey f-a flying-aviator! 03:39:36 I wish! 03:42:48 f-a, this is my transport these days :) http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=24625854179034628093 03:43:49 nice ride! 03:44:21 the best Italian soul! 03:44:43 nice and sedate for a oldie like me 03:45:01 only 110 HP 03:45:45 do you live in a city? 03:45:51 it's a pita to drive here 03:46:03 a really small rural one 03:46:40 I have endless open rods everywhere around here, small mountains, rainforests (mostly burnt out atm), it's idylic 03:46:44 lots of space, nice 03:46:45 open roads 03:47:05 could you bike in theory? or would we get molten tp? 03:47:10 this area of NSW has the highest density or roads in australia 03:47:24 f-a ? 03:48:16 ahaah I was too oblique: is it too hot to bike? 03:48:28 like 03:48:33 unmotorisedbike 03:48:38 in summer, yes, it's horrible 03:48:48 mainly the humidity 03:49:22 makes wearing biking gear very uncomfortable in our summer, but winter is perfect as it is cool and rarely rains then 03:49:42 oh, pushbike ? 03:49:55 I use a pushbike everyday and love it 03:50:01 excellent 03:51:15 I nearly hit a car today, it turned right in front of me after overtaking and I hit the brakes and missed scraping the side of the car by perhaps 1/2 metre 03:51:54 some kid was screaming something in the car, perhaps abusing me or screaming at the driver that they nearly hit me 03:52:15 but a miss is as good as a mile in my opinion 03:52:33 the driver should have been made aware 03:52:51 and after learning to fly the R22 nothing really bothers me now 03:52:53 good for you on prompt reflexes 03:53:25 id have told the driver who looked like a middle aged woman but the car was way too fast 03:53:59 years of cycling and motorcycling keep my reflexes reasonably fast 03:54:32 cars around here never see me 03:54:47 and everyone is in a mad rush 03:55:18 we have bikesharing here 03:55:27 which is pretty useful in a pinch 03:59:47 Nice bike, tp! 04:00:06 Moto Guzzi is a favourite brand of mine too 04:00:16 mtsd, awesome! 04:00:47 f-a, that would be handy, but Id never share my pushbike :) 04:02:14 I used to drive motorcycles, even though the season is quite short for that here 04:03:18 Australia is a all year motorcycle country mostly 04:03:34 except our summer can be brutal 04:04:00 I'm swedish, so motorcycling is out of the question for a large part of the year :) 04:04:48 ah 04:05:05 I cant imagine that, Ive never even seen snow 04:05:26 Summers are nice, cool and sunny usually. But short, of course 04:06:00 We had some snow a few days ago. The northern parts of the country are covered in snow by now 04:06:44 we have fires all over the last few months 04:08:45 Hard times, I assume? 04:09:04 we had large forest fires last summer. 04:09:54 should we blame climate change? 04:10:04 also, good morning forthnighter 04:10:32 Good morning presiden 04:11:06 I don't know.. last summer here was warm, this year was normal. November so far seems similar to years before 04:12:23 mtsd, yes, state of emergency here now 04:12:41 presiden, we can blame the drought 04:14:01 Hope things work out, tp 04:15:12 mtsd, thanks, we will all survive, australia gets like this from time to time 04:15:26 just part of australian life 04:15:53 i live in a town in a pretty safe spot, so it wont affect me directly 04:16:39 I have to admit, I have never been to Australia. 04:16:58 Maybe some day in the future 04:17:36 bring a hat and suncream! 04:18:02 HAT SUNCREAM BRING 04:19:05 Australia? IF hat-suncream-bring ELSE forgetaboutit! THEN 04:19:51 yeah 04:20:05 later to be refactored into SLIP SLAP SLOP? 04:20:34 hahah 04:21:08 : slip-slap-slop Auatralia? ; 04:22:00 mtsd come here in the next decade and I'll show you around some australian towns 04:39:10 where aboutsd are you tp? 04:40:17 ozstralia WilhelmVonWeiner 04:41:14 I mean, in Australia 04:41:34 My old man moved out there a couple years ago. 04:41:44 My uncle, decades 04:42:02 NSW, a town called "casino" 04:42:44 WilhelmVonWeiner, have you been here ? 04:42:52 I've only been to QLD 04:43:04 Brisbane, Cairns 04:43:31 ahh, brisbane is only about 120 miles north of me 04:43:40 it worked for penny and leonard 04:43:47 whoops! wrong window 04:43:52 so it's kinda 'just up the road' 04:43:52 tp: 'here's a paddock, here's some dirt that use to be grass, here's our famous pie shop' 04:44:22 Pies in oz 04:44:25 incredible. 04:44:32 aussie pie culture changed my life. 04:44:55 WilhelmVonWeiner, I'm sorry to hear that youre 400 lb of fat now ;-) 04:45:14 jabba the WilhelmVonWeiner 04:45:19 The pies and the coffee 04:45:50 Went to this town called Kuranda, and a coffee shop ran by a crazy older gentleman 04:45:58 absolutely bonkers, but good coffee 04:46:33 Thanks tp, hat and suncream would be mandatory in my case. 04:47:17 Scandinavians need that in sunny areas.. 04:48:13 mtsd, australians go to the UK for 3 months and get sunstroke when they return home to Australia ! 04:49:01 WilhelmVonWeiner, QLD is a fabulous state, lots of great coffee shops to ride my motorbike to 04:49:55 next time I'll stop off in NSW and try the pies. See if they compare 04:50:45 : pies pies pies pies ; 04:50:55 just to keep it forth related :^) 04:53:48 hahah 04:54:04 youd be trying hard to beat QLD food 04:54:27 queensland is one of my favorite places 05:08:05 --- quit: f-a (Quit: leaving) 05:51:26 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OxRyOSTHDM 06:29:30 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 06:31:35 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in) 06:44:55 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 07:08:58 --- quit: Jookia (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 07:11:09 --- join: Jookia joined #forth 07:25:58 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 07:40:40 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 07:41:13 --- quit: mtsd (Remote host closed the connection) 07:46:03 --- join: fftww joined #forth 08:33:18 --- join: f-a joined #forth 08:33:27 --- join: lemonpepper24 joined #forth 08:40:15 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 08:41:14 --- quit: a3f (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 08:41:25 --- join: a3f joined #forth 09:39:08 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 10:18:07 --- quit: fftww (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 10:33:54 --- join: fftww joined #forth 10:34:36 --- join: ryke joined #forth 10:45:39 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 10:58:25 --- quit: f-a (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 10:59:36 --- quit: lemonpepper24 (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 10:59:47 --- join: f-a joined #forth 11:11:41 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 11:12:51 --- join: dys joined #forth 12:18:25 --- join: SysDsnEng joined #forth 12:31:23 I've updated my html export/syntax highlighting for examples; the new results are faster to regenerate (by 7.4%) and smaller (by 26.6%) 12:32:11 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 12:32:16 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 12:32:44 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 12:34:29 --- quit: f-a (Quit: leaving) 12:36:15 --- join: TonySidaway joined #forth 12:36:38 --- join: guest1893 joined #forth 12:37:04 --- quit: guest1893 (Client Quit) 12:39:37 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 12:45:33 --- quit: cheater (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 12:47:09 --- join: cheater joined #forth 13:08:19 --- quit: TonySidaway (Quit: TonySidaway) 13:16:52 --- quit: SysDsnEng (Quit: Leaving) 13:17:19 --- join: SysDsnEng joined #forth 13:18:59 --- quit: SysDsnEng (Client Quit) 13:19:22 --- join: SysDsnEng joined #forth 13:20:19 --- join: MaMe65 joined #forth 13:20:26 --- quit: MaMe65 (Client Quit) 13:20:32 --- quit: SysDsnEng (Client Quit) 13:26:49 --- join: ryke joined #forth 13:45:04 --- join: SysDsnEng joined #forth 13:49:11 --- quit: SysDsnEng (Quit: SysDsnEng) 14:16:43 crc, awesome, Ive been thinking of making one for Mecrisp-Stellaris myself 14:18:35 --- join: TonySidaway joined #forth 14:25:40 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 14:34:39 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 14:35:15 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 14:35:34 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 14:52:21 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 14:56:52 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 14:57:04 --- quit: TonySidaway (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:59:54 --- join: TonySidaway joined #forth 15:13:23 I added a basic dictionary lookup! https://f2.tchncs.de/social.tchncs.de/media_attachments/files/005/281/405/original/36ba6644a8848ad2.png 15:23:28 the link gives a blank page for me... but speaking of forth, just for fun, I've recently tried the jupiter ace emulator in mame, it works, although it sometimes misses keys when typing which is annoying if typing code. It was also difficult to find tape images for it to test, but I did find some from magazine web archives 15:23:53 unlike most personal computers of the time, it natively provided forth instead of basic with its rom 15:24:45 phadthai: https://social.tchncs.de/@jookia/103132947986421066 might work 15:25:15 --- quit: xek_ (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 15:26:47 its keyboard layout is also very strange, it had only 40 keys and mame emulates that, needing left and right shift for a number of symbols 15:27:09 phadthai, I was around at the time. I think I had even read Loeliger's very inspiring book, Threaded Interpretive Languages, and I definitely considered buying a Jupiter Ace. 15:27:37 since it was only really known in england back then, I only learned of it a few years ago here 15:29:27 (I live in Canada) 15:29:47 Apple][ was the big 8-bit hit here, other than C64 and a few CP/M 8080/Z80 machines 15:29:55 I think there was also a excellent Forth manual with the Jupiter that's floating around on the net 15:30:27 yes indeed, I found that on archive.org too 15:32:51 my first forth experience was with graforth on apple][ 15:37:38 TonySidaway: it seems that the machine could run cp/m-80 but have found no related effort 15:37:51 s/have/I have/ 15:38:06 maybe partly because it shipped with so little ram 15:38:31 many expansions were promised but end of life was early 15:39:00 mame can run it with 48k ram configured, but most users were used to 1-3k, it seems 15:40:07 hmm many cp/m applications also expected 80 columns, so a video extension or using it over serial might have been needed 15:41:16 I'm also not sure if a disk drive existed for it 15:41:46 maybe via an ace->zx peripheral adaptor 15:43:00 phadthai, I think it used a cassete drive ... yuk 15:43:08 yes 15:43:35 I had a cassette drive on some early computing gear once, it was just terribly unreliable 15:44:09 the first floppies were tons more reliable, even the first 8" hard sectored ones 15:44:18 I found some tap/wav audio tape "images" and could load them in mame using the LOAD command, mame jupace's -cass option and pressing f2 to "start the tape" :) 15:45:02 I used tapes on apple][ as well before eventually having 2 floppy drives 15:45:25 tho drives that used a light bulb and a tapered slot for head positioning were problematic as the bulb light level reduced over time 15:45:49 wow, DSP of old tape tones ? 15:45:50 these were 5" though not 8", but still only about 160K per side 15:46:23 wow @ incandescent head positioning 15:46:32 yeah, I used to service them 15:46:49 yes, for the dsp question 15:47:10 at customer premises as the computers of the day were built into desks 15:47:40 although they were generated from binary (very even when seen visually like in audacious), so not original tape analog->digital recordings 15:48:36 the original tape files would have just been a two tone system ? 15:48:45 it seems so 15:49:11 I'd have to check but I think it was just 300bps and two tones for 0/1 15:49:12 seems reasonable and easy to do with a cheap and nasty cassete tape recorder 15:49:23 I'm sure youre right 15:49:35 yes, and rather resilient despite the low quality media 15:49:43 and analog noise 15:50:06 and speed and tape streching distortions :) 15:50:13 in later years someone once wrote "dont underestimate the sheer bulk data capability of a car boot full of video tapes" 15:50:40 that was in the days when they were using video tapes instead of audio tapes for data 15:50:54 :) 15:51:14 the video tapes were far more reliable and could store hundreds of MB iirc 15:51:24 this reminds me of audio digital storage on vhs tape 15:51:37 good point 15:52:22 before the "metal" cassettes 15:52:35 luckily we now have USB bulk storage at $5 for 16GB 15:53:24 as a tech, I loathe all old tech because I had to repair a lot of it. I'm trying to escape history, not relive it :) 15:53:30 for some things i'd rather the best reliability than large capacity 15:54:28 sourcecode i write would never ever reach 1 gig 15:55:14 even 1 meg of code is huge 15:56:02 have you ever tried m@disk? It seems that many drives sold advertizing support for it but the media was exceedingly rare and, not long time-tested at all, despite its long storage claims 15:57:23 I think it was standard ~750M/4.4G CD/DVD capacity 15:58:47 (I never tried it personally, using redundant hard drives for code storage) 16:00:30 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 16:00:40 dave0, same here 16:02:11 well this conversation somehow solidified plans for my next Forth related project :) 16:02:23 it's funny how the mind works! 16:02:25 tp: I also try not to keep ancient hardware around, there's an exception though, a Marshall Valvestate 8080 (I actually have two, one needing servicing), because I enjoy its particular sound 16:02:37 tp: cool 16:03:34 Ive been planning to learn LEXX and YACC for part of my planned 'forth library' system but just couldn't get started as my ideas were too vague 16:04:08 but now I realise I can learn them to create a Forth source to html application 16:04:09 I should try amfort or eforth for avr at some point, more for entertainment than planned projects though, at least at first 16:05:26 Ive started using the built in VIM html facility but it's manual and slow, whereas I want fast and automatic 16:05:50 phadthai, amforth has outstanding documentation in my opinion 16:05:58 and so does eforth 16:06:11 if I remember, amforth on it was interpreted only but supports more systems too as a result 16:07:00 and some eforth port used a custom bootblock allowing to save code blocks that can be run directly 16:07:16 (despite the avr's harvard architecture limitations) 16:09:07 (that prevent executing code from ram, unless through an interpreter) 16:09:24 phadthai, ahh a valve audio amp 16:09:50 yes it's hybrid, tube for preamp and hard state for the power amp 16:10:11 phadthai, Im so used to running Forth in ram or flash at my whim, I couldnt use something like that 16:10:12 so doesn't need heating up or to be very loud to have a "hot" sound 16:11:15 and spring reverb :) 16:11:31 tubes can be beautiful works of art, I grew up with tubes and all my home made gear used them 16:11:58 heh, a coiled wire reverb ? 16:12:22 tho I was never interested in audio, all my tube designs were for rf 16:12:27 yes there's a transducer at both ends for conversion, and it really reverbs by vibrating springs 16:12:47 which is a development from the "plate reverb" older method 16:13:15 it's interesting how mechanical devices are a part of electronic signal processing 16:13:35 yeah 16:14:18 I used to have industrial quality digital delay units that used about 100 turns of spring steel wire in a thin metal case with a transducer at each end 16:14:45 electric memory heh 16:15:03 later I made audio delays using BBD devices but their inherent noise made them barely usable 16:15:44 I did specialise in low noise preamps for mechanical technologies tho 16:16:36 such as amplifying a microphone signal to a mechanical tech could listen to a machine full of gears and analyse problems 16:16:45 to = so 16:17:15 also interesting was metal screens in the charactron to have the equivalent of daisy wheel infinite-resolution characters but at the time with crt tube... the electron ray needed initial x/y alignment to hit the right char on the screen, then second x/y alignment to hit the wanted location of the char on the crt phosphor 16:17:32 back then, and I dont know if things have changed, IC's were hopeless for low noise preamps 16:17:50 wow, I never knew that 16:18:01 a code converter ? 16:18:06 nice, I have no barely amp engineering know-how, but do appreciate the niceties of low impendence low noise analog audio 16:18:51 I found that untra low noise needed bipolar transistors and careful pcb layout design 16:19:59 my first design was for a watchmakers watchtiming machine which used valves, they would listen with a earphone and could analyse all kinds of problems 16:20:21 I used to rebuild the machines with my own solid state design 16:20:31 replacing all the valves 16:21:27 this machine had the faintest of ticking sound from a watch, and my replacement audio amp was utterly silent at full volume, no audible hiss 16:22:09 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsWM1pIHVRc is a simulation demonstration, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZC4zO_9dFU shows how a tube looked, also related: https://www.vimeo.com/28588617 16:22:48 (for charactron) 16:22:49 the poor watchmaker turned the volume full up as he was used to the valve unit and screamed 'bloody hell' as he yanked the earphone out. I could hear the loud TICK TICK from his earphone from the other side of the table 16:23:06 heh 16:23:33 poor guy, I forgot to warn him that the solid state replacement was a bit louder 16:29:20 interesting Stromberg Carlson Charactron video 16:30:13 "Gerber" printers still operate with mechanical cutouts for the component footprints afaik 16:30:28 other than for crt screens it was also used for photography, as it could "burn" into phographic layer 16:32:00 makes sense 16:32:57 a gerber printer is like that but uses mechanical cutouts and a light source onto film 16:33:05 gerber for pcbs? 16:33:10 mainly to do large PCB artwork 16:33:12 yes 16:33:15 ok 16:33:25 interesting 16:33:47 I only knew of the transition file format 16:34:06 theryre a big xy table with a bulb and big disk in front with the etched component footprint shapes and lenses etc 16:34:07 and a bit about automated soldering 16:34:31 ah and remember of acid copper etching 16:34:39 a big cover hinges over to cut out external light 16:35:55 a more modern method would be a large optically flat electron tube to scan the PCB film but that would be way expensive compared to gerber printers I guess 16:36:26 similar to how 'film' processing machines used to work 16:37:14 hmm, come to think of it, this monitor has 0.3mm pixels ... 16:38:30 replace the backlight with some IR flat panel and I could use it to place artwork on a sensitized pcb 16:49:18 nice idea 16:51:11 it would probably work, the main problem is getting a consistent IR flat panel source 16:51:26 but that would be project #199 16:53:50 my next project is that YACC and LEX Forth to html processor! 16:53:51 --- quit: TonySidaway (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 16:55:07 I want to make my ideal automated syntax highlighted html files for my web documentation site 16:55:36 --- join: TonySidaway joined #forth 17:08:59 tp, looked carefully at STM32 stuff last night after our discussion. Assuming I want to start with an F0 Discovery to get a feel for the lie of the land, should I be careful in choosing a toolchain? I saw a number on ST's website and GCC wasn't mentioned. 17:09:59 TonySidaway, I think you're safest with a F0 Discovery of all chips as they have everything available 17:10:20 Gcc has full support for cortex-m0 17:10:28 Thanks. 17:10:41 but ST's website is a mess 17:10:52 Yeah. 17:11:09 they jump from one system to another like musical chairs 17:11:47 typical MCU manufacturers, all suffering from internal infighting between different sections in the company 17:12:45 the only downsides to the F0 Disco is that you wont be able to run Micropython or eLUA or eLISP on it if you want to try them 17:13:04 because you really need at least 1MB of flash for them 17:13:25 plus at least a cortex-m4 17:13:42 oh, also no usb on the cortex-m0 17:14:10 Fuck that. I want to play around in assembler and Forth. 17:14:24 then the M0 is *perfect* ! 17:14:55 damn, I just learnt that LEX only produces C output, that's useless for me 17:16:39 tp, we're talking about old-time Unix lex? 17:18:05 TonySidaway, yea, or flex or bison, I wanted to use a lexical analysis tool 17:18:32 maybe with a non C 'configuration file" LEX can do other things ? 17:19:20 May be worth checking to see if there are tools that do what you want. Lex is decades old. 17:19:29 I can use Perl to parse Forth into HTML but I want a more specialised toolset 17:19:42 thats cool, so is Forth ;) 17:20:54 You just want a way to prettyprint Forth in HTML? 17:21:42 no, I want to learn how to prettyprint Forth in HTML as a precursor for using the same tools to do other Forth related tasks 17:22:02 Im designing a Forth library system eventually 17:22:34 Hence your need for a lexical scanner. I get it. 17:23:05 I can and do prettyprint Forth in HTML right now, ie https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/systick-library.html#ststick-library-code 17:25:51 Yes, I've seen a number of your pages. They look great. You'd like something to do that without firing up Perl every time? 17:26:38 well the existing html syntax is made by my editor, VIM, no Perl needed 17:27:24 I could easily keep doing that but I needed a exercise to learn how to use a decent unix lexer 17:28:06 my existing web Forth pages are already semi automated regarding colour syntax 17:28:21 Trying to remember how we did this in Scheme. I think we used an s-expression based syntax, which would probably map well to Forth. 17:29:18 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SXML 17:29:39 i'm also learning LISP, so something ready made like LEX would be better as Im far from competent with LISP/scheme 17:30:22 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 17:31:01 TonySidaway, oh! thats a interesting link and I'm very conversant with XML and parsing it with XLST 17:32:17 The thing is that SXML is just a Polish formulation of XML. You can reverse it and it (conceivably) maps to Forth. 17:33:20 so you recommend scheme to write a Forth to HTML parser ? 17:34:31 Not saying that, but if you're learning Lisp it might be a fun side-project. 17:34:55 hmm, good point 17:35:06 I am learning lisp 17:35:32 and why learn lex and yacc if that would take time away from learning lisp ? 17:36:06 a excellent point, it hadn't occured to me 17:36:40 Scheme is just a variant of Lisp. Common Lisp is arguably more useful than Scheme 17:37:08 Scheme is more functional, Common Lisp is more imperative 17:39:17 tabemann, I'm a huge Scheme fan but I'm also trying to be realistic. 17:42:07 Scheme has the problem that its implementations are too fragmented, like Forth 17:45:16 tabemann, and like Forth, it will perform well in a tiny footprint. I used to run Scheme on an entry-level Palm Pilot (m100.) 17:46:01 wow 17:46:57 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LispMe 17:47:02 thanks TonySidaway, I was suffering from some 'cow pathways of the mind" as I'd been wanting to learn LEXX for about 29 years now, but LISP/SCHEME for only 6 years 17:47:34 er, lexx for 20 years 17:48:08 tabemann, I dont care about fragmentation as long as the variant I learn is always available to me 17:49:15 tabemann, I'm not into 'code sharing' across disparate systems other than sharing the concepts with anyone interested 17:50:01 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 17:50:03 thats why C holds no alure to me. Besides, you can't share embedded code because it's different for every diferent microprocessor 17:50:14 I can say that in the case of Forth I'm okay with fragmentation 17:52:18 you could probably use my runtime to implement an ANS Forth if you really wanted to 17:53:58 okay, I've gotta go - bbl 17:56:41 tp, hope you find what you want. Lisp is a great way to produce XHTML, I've found. You should find it plain sailing once you grasp SXML representation. 17:57:32 --- join: ryke joined #forth 17:57:53 I'm off to bed, too. 2am here 17:58:01 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 17:58:07 --- quit: TonySidaway (Quit: TonySidaway) 17:58:14 TonySidaway, well my Forth source isnt in xml, but I use cmsis-svd xml files to create all my Forth memory maps for cortex-m 18:58:40 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 20:28:14 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 22:03:36 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 23:14:18 i'm getting close to having a working but basic outer interpreter 23:17:36 but i want to strip that down to something i can use to implement a better outer interpreter, since it contains a lot of junk that i'd rather not have in forth assembly: line buffering, stdin/stdout handling. ideally the outer interpreter code would be written in a basic outer interpreter and appended to the executable 23:18:36 but that might be overkill. does anyone else have a bootstrap outer interpreter? 23:26:51 --- quit: fftww (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 23:30:50 --- join: fftww joined #forth 23:34:21 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 23:39:35 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection) 23:42:34 --- quit: pareidolia (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 23:42:56 c[] good afternoon Forthwrights 23:43:36 g'day Zen Forth Master! 23:45:08 hi Master of Technicians! 23:48:24 rdrop-exit, it occurs to me that Mecrisp-Stellaris Forth already knows what each component of a source file is. Is it practical to consider a Forth Word to read each line of Forth source and output a HTML line with a tag for post processing ? 23:49:28 which Id do via my terminal log as I do now for cloning the entire chip binary 23:50:59 I guess, I'm not familiar with Mecrisp-Stellaris Forth 23:51:25 yes, I appreciate that 23:51:30 Im not either ;-) 23:51:40 I'm just a Mecrisp-Stellaris user 23:52:57 Is Mecrisp-Stellaris Forth ANS compliant or its own thing 23:52:58 ? 23:53:09 kind of 23:53:26 it has a word to enforce ANS compliance 23:54:02 most words are ANS compliant, but there are a few extensions 23:54:49 I think that Matthias is a stickler for standards 23:55:36 I have emailed this question to him, and a html parser was written for Amforth 23:58:35 Check the source code for QUIT 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.11.13