00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.11.07 00:03:31 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 00:22:58 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 01:04:51 --- quit: inode (Quit: ) 01:14:54 morning Forth 01:15:03 anything interesting happened in the past week? 01:18:28 of course! 02:11:31 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 02:33:44 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 02:50:54 --- join: xek joined #forth 03:08:39 https://f2.tchncs.de/social.tchncs.de/media_attachments/files/005/225/698/original/aab8da4511f1f065.png 428 bytes later i have a memory dumper 03:30:52 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 03:35:46 Very proud of myself pushing through and avoiding having to use rot :P 03:48:10 --- join: inode joined #forth 04:00:54 --- quit: jedb_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 04:03:26 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 04:18:39 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 04:20:03 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 04:20:04 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 05:12:29 WilhelmVonWeiner: I'm continuing to replace PHP and Python code with Forth in our order management tool at work 05:15:36 crc, great! That would be nice to do at my job as well. Loads of Python here 05:21:00 mtsd: I am fortunate in that I get my choice of languages and tools for programming projects 05:22:43 I hope to get to that situation here as well. We have many old systems that are due to be replaced. 05:26:14 And no money to buy new, shiny, expensive ones. Just me to write suitable replacements. 05:26:37 Using suitable languages :) 05:41:07 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 05:44:18 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in) 06:05:15 --- join: EvanCarroll joined #forth 06:11:44 --- join: jdavidboyd joined #forth 06:20:36 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: Leaving) 06:23:58 --- join: dys joined #forth 06:36:06 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 07:48:26 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 07:50:00 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 08:30:59 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 08:31:22 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 08:31:49 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 08:59:19 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 09:42:19 --- join: ryke joined #forth 09:47:15 --- join: f-a joined #forth 10:16:52 --- join: xek joined #forth 10:38:56 --- join: jedb joined #forth 10:49:20 --- quit: f-a (Quit: leaving) 11:28:49 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 12:37:13 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:02:12 --- join: xek_ joined #forth 13:02:33 --- quit: xek (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:06:01 --- quit: EvanCarroll (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:16:11 --- join: xek joined #forth 13:16:50 --- quit: xek_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:49:04 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 13:57:58 --- quit: xek (Remote host closed the connection) 13:58:12 --- join: xek joined #forth 14:20:02 --- join: EvanCarroll joined #forth 14:22:58 --- join: jedb_ joined #forth 14:25:13 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 14:37:23 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 15:02:58 --- quit: xek (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:03:08 --- join: xek_ joined #forth 15:07:51 --- join: jedb__ joined #forth 15:10:22 --- quit: xek_ (Remote host closed the connection) 15:10:25 --- quit: jedb_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 15:10:42 --- join: xek_ joined #forth 15:28:23 --- quit: xek_ (Remote host closed the connection) 15:28:48 --- join: xek_ joined #forth 15:30:19 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 16:41:30 --- quit: EvanCarroll (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 17:10:01 c[] 17:30:18 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 17:34:38 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 17:56:59 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 18:16:59 --- quit: xek_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 18:17:08 c[35.0] 18:17:13 ;-) 18:17:24 --- join: dave69 joined #forth 18:18:21 --- quit: dave0 (Disconnected by services) 18:18:24 --- nick: dave69 -> dave0 18:18:36 hey 18:19:42 hey tabemann 18:21:03 I'm wondering if I should modify hashforth OOP to use metaclasses and whatnot 18:22:29 I'm the last person to ask, no idea about OOP 18:23:05 now if you asked "should I enable all the gpios by default?" I'm your guy! 18:25:49 and see, I'm clueless about most embedded things 18:27:41 at least we can be useful to each other here then :) 18:28:50 having made the forth hardware interrogating binary and released it, Ive had a fair bit of feedback from owners 18:29:20 all are C users of course but they don't care, it gives them the information they want 18:29:42 and oddly I havent been attacked by arduino users as yet 18:30:54 millions of arduino users in the world and not one has made a binary to do this job, 42 Forth users in the world and we do it ;-) 18:31:12 lol 18:31:38 despite the paucity of Forth users, I bet the number of Forth implementations far outstrip the number of C implementations 18:32:12 one can talk about Forth all they like, but actually make something useful for C users with it and the reaction is positive 18:32:49 tabemann, I agree, I think there is probably at least 2 different Forth implementations for every man, woman and child on earth 18:32:58 ;-) 18:33:01 lol 18:33:12 slightly less than the number of cellphones in use 18:33:22 lol 18:34:04 interestingly my binary release uses a USB driver that was built on top of one for Coreforth released in 2011 18:34:32 what I like about Forth is I get to be the author of my own implementation, which I know better than anyone else in the world 18:34:33 and from the look of that driver, coreforth targeted cortex-m 18:35:24 tabemann, I'm sure all other 16 billion Forth implementations were made for the same reason 18:35:59 what I like about Forth is I get to design my own embedded develop environment and it totally rules! 18:37:43 my problem is that I'm not confident enough to wade into the world of embedded programming 18:38:00 I've done embedded before, but that was in C and with a commercial RTOS 18:38:15 thats a pretty good start tho 18:38:37 at least youve had that experience, which is more than many 18:38:38 it also was with an API in ROM that basically hid most of the functionality from the user 18:39:01 it was using some Stellaris (i.e. ARM) chip 18:39:03 embedded tends to do that, theyre just appliances 18:39:46 self test code tends to equal application code in the gear I make 18:40:08 what intimidates me is having to go and write my own driver code for everything 18:40:12 but my gear never has any user io such as a terminal 18:42:24 was were the five lucky children intimidated by having the keys to the Wonka Chocolate Factory ? 18:43:01 thats how a hardware guy sees Forth and embedded 18:43:06 partially it's that I'm so used to having POSIX and all 18:44:10 I understand I think 18:44:32 but why do you have to write drivers for *everything* ? 18:44:51 whereas when porting hashforth to Cortex-M I will have to give that all up; I will have to write my own serial port drivers, for starters, and I will have to write my own interrupt handlers, because I won't have the luxury of having POSIX signal handlers 18:45:02 when matthias koch released Mecrisp-Stellaris Forth he didnt write drivers for anything really 18:45:57 and what C people call a USART driver, I call 'configuring the usart' 18:47:10 if you look at STM and their different IDE's, HAL's and 'libraries' it is all a monumental mess 18:47:30 but it's not simply configuring the USART - rather one has to interact with it to read incoming bytes and write outgoing bytes 18:47:48 C really has a way of making messy spaghetti everywhere 18:48:45 the peripheral pretty much does everything in hardware 18:49:10 but I assume there is stuff like DMA one needs to deal with 18:49:43 to add RTS handshaking to Mecrisp-Stellaris, I had to enable the RTS bit and set up the GPIO for it, basically a hour job including testing for me 18:50:07 there can be, but Mecrisp-Stellaris only polls the USART, no interrupt, no dma 18:50:44 I assume it's using a task to do this? 18:51:01 I dont think so 18:51:22 if I make a endless loop Mecrisp-Stellaris wont be talking to me 18:51:38 I mean a cooperative task 18:52:13 I dont think so as cooperative multitasking is a addon word 18:52:46 but Im at the limits of my Mecrisp-Stellaris internal knowledge here 18:55:31 I kinda feel my Forth in its current state is too "big" to be used for embedded 18:56:05 but it can be easily pared down, because much of its functionality exists as separate files written in Forth that are packaged with the image at build time 18:56:14 but which are otherwise separate of the core of the image 18:56:45 what about making a tethered Forth with it ? 18:57:08 that way your Forth can be as big and use as much C as you like ? 18:57:29 I could make a tethered Forth 18:57:35 because I can just use the same runtime 18:57:49 mind you stripped down to remove all the POSIX stuff 18:57:54 there isnt a decent cortex-m tethered Forth I know off 18:58:30 I have one, but it's old and buggy, "riscy pygness" by frank seargant 18:59:33 that was the cortex-m Forth I started with back in 2014. I tried to bend it to my will, but it only bent me out of shape instead 19:00:03 with the board I have, though, I don't anticipate tethered Forth to be necessary as it still has a meg of Flash 19:00:55 okay, I have to go - the coffee shop I'm at is closing 19:01:03 bbl 19:01:55 cya! 19:06:49 tp: what do you mean by tethered forth? 19:07:05 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 19:09:18 yunfan, instead of the Forth being inside the MCU, it's inside a PC which connects to the MCU via a cable 19:10:09 tp: so you need to run a 3-words forth on the mcu side to receive commans from host and execute? 19:13:16 thats one way that Frank Sargeant did it I believe 19:15:41 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 19:19:46 My USB cable to my keyboard died, first time I've had a USB cable die on me 19:23:02 rdrop-exit, welcome back! Zen Forth Master! 19:23:52 rdrop-exit, I'm guessing it wasnt a $400 Cisco weatherproof outdoor usb cable ? 19:24:19 Thanks Master Technician! 19:25:07 It was a radom nameless USB cable from the bottom drawer 19:25:43 I almost had a stroke, thought my keyboard had died 19:26:13 Was already going to order a replacement 19:28:17 Is it worth being picky with USB cables? 19:30:33 rdrop-exit: Not really 19:31:25 figures 19:33:04 rdrop-exit, one doesnt really get a choice of usb quality thesedays 19:33:12 well I'm relieved it wasn't the kb, now I can relax with a good cup again c[] :) 19:33:22 rdrop-exit, it's 'cheap junk' or 'cheap junk' 19:33:34 I accidentally broke the end of my keyboard's USB cable so I found a random cable and just soldered them together and it's worked fine 19:33:51 cool 19:33:57 --- join: ryke joined #forth 19:34:26 Or I might not have soldered it, just twisted the wires. I don't quite remember 19:34:39 tp the French have a saying, "you have a choice black hat or hat black" 19:35:34 Nothing looks wrong with the cable externally 19:36:18 If it's a detachable keyboard you could probably try probing it with a multimeter 19:36:24 cable* 19:36:55 I'm a lazy bastard, it's in the trash already 19:37:20 rdrop-exit, just a usb extender cable ? 19:38:01 yup, micro on one end, normal on the other 19:38:25 rdrop-exit: I once had a set of cheap bluetooth headphones that buzzed unless you plugged a USB cable in to it even if it wasn't connected. Pretty sure it had some grounding issue 19:39:07 I had a USB hub that would cause my Wifi to drop 19:39:32 rdrop-exit, does that cable get plugged/unplugged a lot ? 19:39:44 no, hardly ever 19:40:09 does the local iguana like chewing it ? 19:40:09 bizzare 19:40:19 I dealt with an issue the other day of someone's machine not having working USB and it needed a BIOS update and all I could do was think about how serial cables haven't failed me 19:43:11 We get a lot of the local version of geckos in the condo, they zip by from one hiding place to the next 19:43:56 They're great, they eat mosquitos 19:45:03 animals are pretty good 19:46:00 same here, I have 'barking geckos' 19:47:29 since dengue is from mosquitos, I'm happy to host them 19:47:42 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 19:48:02 36.4C 19:48:10 you bet 19:48:37 A cool 31C here today 19:48:52 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 19:50:05 the "feels like" is at 38C, expecting thunderstorms later today 19:51:54 it's cold here today 19:52:53 I hate cold, I never travel into cold weather anymore 19:53:01 it's 18 F and will get down to 7 F tonight 19:53:03 it's 38c at the local airport atm, expecting 39C today 19:53:16 we have fires and smoke all over the place, no rain 19:53:23 siesta weather 19:53:42 tabemann, it's your winter now, and my summer 19:54:06 We don't have seasons, just rain or no rain 19:55:40 hahah 19:55:44 wow 19:55:57 and this season it's 'rain' ? 19:56:44 Lately it's been on and off, mostly off 19:57:27 then out of the blue it's torrential for an hour or two 19:58:47 nice 19:58:53 My yougest daughter saw snow for the first time this year 19:59:02 it's been mostly off the last 3 months here 19:59:22 I've never seen snow, but Im a sand expert! 19:59:44 I've been in the arctic a few times 20:01:25 awesome! 20:01:37 chase any polar bears ? 20:01:53 Wow, you've never seen snow, cool. 20:02:16 no, closest Ive come to snow is inside a refrigerator I guess 20:04:05 I've visited cold places, but I wouldn't want live anyplace that gets cold 20:04:24 I'm in shorts year around 20:04:31 hence manila! 20:04:42 yup 20:04:56 Dr rdrop-exitstone I presume ? 20:05:17 lol 20:06:46 Dr rdrop-exitstone I presume, 20:06:47 stepping out of the jungle bloom, 20:06:47 Into the mid days sun. 20:06:47 What did you find there? 20:06:47 Did you stand awhile and stare? 20:06:47 Did you meet anyone? 20:08:01 ... I've seen polar bears and seals, I've seen great Antarctic eels but Forth was what I was looking for ... 20:08:24 back 20:08:26 Moody blues, I had to google, couldn't remember who did it 20:08:32 ( moody blues, "dr livingstone' savaged by me ) 20:08:40 wb tabemann 20:08:42 tabemann, welcome back! 20:09:22 rdrop-exit, I've always loved the moody blues 20:09:35 cool 20:11:13 Is the guy who did your Forth Matthias Koch? 20:11:38 he is 20:11:56 He posted on clf today, thought the name ringed a bell 20:12:57 oh, what did he post about ? 20:13:11 not a new release I guess ? 20:13:38 No, he just replied to a thread with a code snippet 20:14:36 ah 20:14:37 The thread about Integer Log2 20:14:55 typical clf stuff 20:14:57 that the kforth guy started 20:15:18 i dont read clf any more because Im all about embedded 20:16:36 the signal to noise ratio tends to be very low, like most usenet groups 20:17:41 true 20:19:06 I shouldn't criticize, I brought the SNR down here with my keyboard panic 20:20:35 at least we had something to talk about 20:25:32 the only "programming" I've been doing lately, if you can call it that, is in Latex, documenting code rather than coding 20:26:08 I should write more documentation for hashforth 20:26:23 not just for the runtime, but also for all the library code 20:26:45 rdrop-exit, but you gave me an example of "postpone" here, and I passed it onto another person who also benefited 20:27:13 rdrop-exit, Forth is also about teaching and passing on the knowledge 20:27:58 cool 20:28:40 I'm trying to dig up a quote that just came to mind... 20:31:55 "... the designer of a new system must not only be the implementor and the first large-scale user; the designer should also write the first user manual... If I had not participated fully in all those activities, literally hundreds of improvements would never have been made, because I would never have thought of them or perceived why they were important." -- D.Knuth 20:36:36 thats well said 20:39:14 most of my "documentation" is solely in the form of comments at the top of each function, unfortunately 20:41:19 writing documentation is harder than coding and takes more time 20:42:31 it's a pain 20:42:33 programmers make terrible doc writers usually 20:42:44 and they really hate it (usually) 20:43:28 yup 20:45:01 but as Knuth said, it pays off 20:45:38 Ive had a great day programming embedded as it happens :) 20:45:51 hurrah! 20:46:16 I've spent *all* day finding the perfect storm of retarded moronic tp errors 20:46:27 some go back months 20:46:49 all are trivial in the extreme but when they gang up on me ... 20:47:45 lunch is ready, catch you in a bit 20:48:06 cya! 20:48:49 see ya 20:49:45 I think I've figured out how to handle object initialization in hashforth 20:49:53 like 20:50:08 object begin-class foo-class field: foo-field end-class 20:50:22 foo-class begin-class bar-class field: bar-field end-class 20:50:26 method init 20:50:52 foo-class :method init drop 1 swap foo-field ! ; 20:51:11 bar-class :method init over 2 swap bar-field ! super init ; 20:51:41 : allocate-bar bar-class allocate-object! 2dup init ; 20:51:50 so 20:51:55 you call allocate-bar 20:52:05 and it creates an instance of bar-class on the heap 20:52:29 and initializes its fields and its inherited fields for foo-class 20:53:27 note that an object is defined by two values, a class and a data pointer 21:05:24 okay, I'm gonna go night night 21:07:40 nighto tabemann ! 21:12:40 so today i'm going to implement parsing words as numbers woo 21:17:17 and I've just fixed a heap of bugs to my development system and realised I need to make a compiler test suite to test my error detector passer 21:18:43 rdrop-exit, when you return, I think I've a worth topic to discuss ? how about "universal Forth library systems" ? 21:39:20 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 21:48:40 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 21:57:53 back 21:57:56 c[] 21:58:54 wb! 21:59:31 thx! 22:02:10 so rdrop-exit any thoughts on a Forth library management system ? 22:02:28 I know the subject has been rehashed a million times 22:03:50 What would you want it to do for you? 22:05:43 manage all my Forth Words and their dependencies 22:06:19 ... in fact just talking to you about it is giving me ideas because your Forth Zen is so strong! 22:07:19 Zen radiation, my new superpower :) 22:07:53 a forum reader asked me for a special mod to my recently released chip ID reader and usb tester, and Ive just replied on the form with a URL for him to collect his bootable mcu image with the mod 22:08:22 hahah, Forth can simply be another level of magic to arduino users 22:08:39 You are an Arduino God 22:09:03 hahaha, and I dont know anything about arduino either, how awesome is that ? 22:09:51 Ive made binaries that people have now tested, for boards I dont even own 22:10:55 He's a Witch! Burn him!!! 22:11:14 after I mentioned the library to you, I realised by by a complete fluke of nature, my development foundational design should make a library system pretty easy to create 22:12:01 yeah, Im expecting crowds of excitable arduino users with pitchforks gathering outside sometime soon 22:12:23 I love those "it just so happens..." moments of serendipity. 22:12:28 ... as soon as they can Google how to make 'pitch' and where to buy feathers 22:14:24 unfortunately for me, I think the design will require learning about LEX and YACC 22:15:01 I could write it in Perl, but I know from all the hundreds of Perl apps Ive written that it would be really ugly 22:15:44 If it's trivial you could use AWK 22:16:11 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 22:16:41 it would have to start at the current source and find every Word used, then pull them from the library and create a new source file including the deps and so on 22:17:42 I've written similar apps, lol, many years ago I wrote a Python app that collected the daily posts to c.o.l.a. across three newsservers 22:18:05 and at the end of each day it would analyse the headers of each post 22:18:14 ... seeing where Im going ? 22:19:12 yes, but do you really need it? 22:19:13 and in the morning after analysing around 500 posts, it would print ID's from all the same IP's (trolls) 22:19:39 then Id post the latest findings and you should have seen the hate mail I got 22:20:16 I think I do, but perhaps you can see I have other options ? 22:21:12 back in those days (around 1999) cola was a den of trolls all pretending to be windows users and so stirring up Linux advocates 22:22:15 so Id find IP's (always anti linux) with several nicks, all doing the fake grass root support thing 22:22:33 and all were obviously the one poster 22:22:49 heh 22:24:20 I don't use source files, I've lost touch with that way of thinking. 22:24:54 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection) 22:26:04 omg, I'm not worthy to even ask you anything! 22:27:02 Dude! 22:27:10 lol 22:28:00 I named that program "colatroll" and released it under the GPL 22:28:12 haha, it's spawned all kinds of stuff since then 22:28:52 https://www.reddit.com/user/cola-troll/posts/ <-- it's not even clear what this one is! 22:29:30 what is c.o.l.a? 22:31:41 comp os Linux advocacy 22:31:48 a newsgroup 22:31:54 ah I c 22:32:12 for giggles, i just found this on google, it's me back in 2002 22:32:15 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.linux.advocacy/bI8AGU4r6DQ 22:32:20 never frequented that 22:32:31 it shows pretty much how far Linux has come since then 22:32:38 it was a warzone 22:33:17 wow seems like it 22:33:31 I read cola for 6 months before I dared post anything because I was so sure my post would be ripped apart and me along with it 22:34:06 Alexander Viro the original Linux kernel hacker frequented COLA and his posts were like atom bombs 22:34:20 hes another ranter I idolise 22:34:57 when I finally did post to cola, I cant tell you my relief when Alexander ignored me! 22:35:19 I've always been more interested in BSD than Linux 22:36:11 i didnt even know FreeBSD existed back then. I'm just a electronics tech and I lead a sheltered life 22:36:38 It was like the heavens opening and angels singing when I stumbled over Linux 22:39:46 Wow 22:40:30 I mean it was like this .... imagine youre walking along on a evening stroll one day, and a black limo pulls up next to you, the door opens and inside is a scantily dressed Uma Thurman with a bucket of ice with barcardi abd coke in it and chockolates of all awesome kinds strewn around the car. She says, "i think youre the most handsome man Ive ever seen and I must take you home with me!" .... what would you say ? perhaps, "thanks but no, I think I'll wait for 22:40:30 Miley Cyrus to come by with the same offer ?" 22:41:00 or do you leap in the car before she changes her mind ? 22:41:11 finding Linux was like that for me 22:42:04 I need to google Miley Cyrus, brb 22:42:05 after years of windows, Linux was the most awesome Id ever seen 22:42:08 haahh 22:43:55 Not familiar with her work 22:44:40 Is she like the new Suzi Quatro? 22:44:52 there isnt much of it, shes into being beautiful for money mainly 22:45:13 hell no, NO ONE will ever replace Suzi Quatro? 22:45:29 yup :) 22:46:02 suzi q is like a awesome 500 ton gorilla in a apachie gunship, mylie is like a pretty girl crying because she broke a nail 22:46:13 haha 22:46:47 Miley was just born beautiful, shes average otherwise 22:46:52 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYoogY-UGio 22:48:17 I was 11 22:48:37 really ? 22:48:49 video is 73 22:48:52 wow you retired at 20 then, how awesome! 22:49:11 yeah, I was 19 then 22:50:09 re music, my years are 1960 - 1980 when I was at my best. anything after 1980 I dont really care for because the music died 22:51:03 that year I was riding a honda 25 trail bike across australia by myself 22:51:56 I was living in San Francisco when Bill Graham was doing the Days on The Green 22:52:28 wow old billy graham! 22:54:54 Saw tons of concerts as a teenager, rock in San Francisco, Jazz and Blues on the Riviera 22:55:18 how awesome and what a great time to be there 22:55:37 you'll have to excuse me, Im off for my daily push bike ride! 22:55:58 take care, see you soon 22:56:05 Jabba the Hut tells me I should keep my weight under 3000 lbs 22:56:31 have fun! 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.11.07