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01:32:49 <WilhelmVonWeiner> john_cephalopoda: I think qemu headless might work
01:33:05 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I ran MINIX3 in the terminal once...
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12:38:19 <creat1001> VM is coded, now for testing it.
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14:55:57 <creat1001> And so far valgrind is happy! 
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18:04:00 <creat1001> hello tp
18:05:23 <rdrop-exit> Good morning Forthwrights :)
18:05:46 <creat1001> hello rdrop
18:06:01 <rdrop-exit> Hi creat1001!
18:06:39 <presiden> hi all
18:06:52 <rdrop-exit> hi presiden
18:07:02 <rdrop-exit> c[]
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18:21:08 <creat1001> rdrop, you from Oz?
18:23:14 <rdrop-exit> Living in Manila
18:23:45 <creat1001> Is see. You from the Philas?
18:25:16 <rdrop-exit> US, moved here 24 years ago
18:25:41 <creat1001> I see. You like I I take it. Nice
18:26:46 <rdrop-exit> Yes, it suits me
18:27:04 <creat1001> Debating on writing an assembler for my new vm
18:27:25 <creat1001> Be the happiest you can be.
18:27:36 <rdrop-exit> right :)
18:27:44 <rdrop-exit> What type of vm
18:28:09 <creat1001> a stack based one for my concept forth like system
18:28:37 <rdrop-exit> cool
18:28:39 <creat1001> Hand testing is now building mem orey for it to run op codes
18:29:04 <creat1001> The first stack system I have done.
18:29:17 <rdrop-exit> cool
18:29:20 <rdrop-exit> 2 stacks?
18:29:27 <creat1001> I have written a few VM's small and large before
18:29:30 <creat1001> 3
18:29:48 <creat1001> Working, address and loops
18:30:17 <creat1001> I do still need to do the loop instuctions. Last two to do.
18:30:32 <rdrop-exit> Aha, I use the return stack for loops
18:31:29 <creat1001> Yeah, I wanted to do the loop stack on the comercal vm I did back in 2004. It got axed :(
18:32:05 <creat1001> I may still axe it, but conceept you know :)
18:32:37 <rdrop-exit> I have a vm I use for the host side of my development environment
18:33:06 <rdrop-exit> 4 stacks
18:33:08 <creat1001> nice. In forth?
18:34:04 <rdrop-exit> The host vm is written in C/POSIX, I run a Forth on top of it
18:34:31 <creat1001> I see. Yeah, mine in in C as well.
18:34:54 <rdrop-exit> It's for tethered development
18:35:20 <creat1001> I'm using my linked list and stack system I did way back in the '90
18:35:41 <creat1001> https://github.com/jscottb/listque
18:36:23 <creat1001> Wll, the Work stack is managed, the addy and loop malloc arrays
18:37:43 <creat1001> My work stack is based on this struct: struct stack_entry {    char data_type;    char parm_val[CELL_SIZE];  };
18:38:28 <creat1001> For now anyway. Op codes are 1 byte and the CELL_SIZE is 4
18:38:49 <rdrop-exit> I also use bytecodes, cells are 64 bit
18:38:52 <creat1001> Ram is the same
18:39:15 <creat1001> I just need to set size to 8 for that
18:39:34 <creat1001> And change base int and float sizes
18:40:42 <creat1001> using the char array allows me to memcpy int's and floats in and still do 8bit byte codes with no extra wirk
18:42:26 <rdrop-exit> Not sure what you mean by extra work
18:43:12 <creat1001> no extra logic to dig the bycodes out of the cells. 
18:44:14 <creat1001> I just index to next byte in the heap and then on data reads, do a copy out of the 4 byts to what ever the base type is
18:44:34 <rdrop-exit> sounds very high level
18:45:11 <rdrop-exit> my cells are just 64 bits, there are no base types
18:45:14 <creat1001> yeah. Going for that. Concept as I said. Just keeping my brian from falling asleep.
18:45:35 <rdrop-exit> uint64_t
18:46:04 <creat1001> You do reals as well, or just int?
18:46:25 <rdrop-exit> just ints, I don't need floating point
18:46:52 <creat1001> Yeah, I hardly do. 
18:47:38 <creat1001> So is your forth written on top of your VM?
18:48:31 <rdrop-exit> Yes
18:48:40 <creat1001> nice.
18:49:09 <rdrop-exit> The vm is just there to give me portability between POSIX systems
18:50:35 <creat1001> When I started this, I did the interp side first (last weekend) and the vm last night and today. Never though about doing the forth system just in the vm code until I saw you guys.
18:50:52 <creat1001> interesting
18:51:35 <rdrop-exit> The vm loads is like a virtual chip, sort of, when it starts up it loads its ram image from a binary file.
18:51:48 <creat1001> That gose back to my earlier pondering, should I write and assembler for it. Thinking yeas now
18:51:51 <rdrop-exit> Then jumps to the Forth
18:52:56 <creat1001> Forgive my typing. I'm very dyslexic
18:53:03 <rdrop-exit> np
18:54:11 <rdrop-exit> You have to figure out how you want to "bootstrap" your initial load image.
18:55:00 <rdrop-exit> You could start by writing an cross-assembler on another Forth.
18:55:17 <creat1001> I have been thinking about how I wanted to flat store them, Still thinking now.
18:55:44 <rdrop-exit> flat store?
18:57:02 <rdrop-exit> Not sure what that means
18:57:07 <creat1001> I mean stort the images in strait binary files or flattened out memory files in some markup lang
18:57:48 <creat1001> Again, these are things I have been thinking about and decided to try last weekend.
18:59:15 <rdrop-exit> I just do binary, don't want to deal with markup languages
19:00:02 <creat1001> Yeah, I probably will do the same. It's what I did for my register based vm's
19:02:29 <rdrop-exit> Is this is side project or do you have a specific use in mind
19:03:52 <creat1001> Side only.
19:04:18 <rdrop-exit> cool
19:05:08 <creat1001> in the mid 90's I did a 4gl with a vm called Blazer. Never relesed and never will be :)
19:05:43 <creat1001> Witten during the dark 4gl times
19:05:53 <rdrop-exit> :)
19:07:30 <rdrop-exit> I've done verious Forths over the years, using the various threading techniques, this one is my only C based one.
19:07:37 <creat1001> Write it a few moths before Java was released in 1995. I started on it in 1994
19:08:14 <creat1001> nice. I'm a C programmer, well I was at one time :)
19:08:36 <creat1001> Well, still am at home
19:08:44 <rdrop-exit> I read the JVM spec a long time ago, didn't care for it.
19:09:39 <creat1001> yeah. I would have never done that back then. 
19:10:01 <creat1001> I was going mor for a pcode type system then.
19:15:44 <rdrop-exit> pcode's ok, but I prefer the 2 stack architecture of Forths
19:16:35 <creat1001> That was long ago now.
19:22:45 <creat1001> Yeah, an asm is needed so I can do test scripts. 
19:26:45 <rdrop-exit> The cross-assembler is your "bootstrap bridge", eventually when you're booting into a Forth on top of your VM, you'll be able to use the Forth itself to lay down bytecodes.
19:28:03 <rdrop-exit> You won't need the bootstrap bridge anymore.
19:28:38 <rdrop-exit> The Forth will just save its image to disk.
19:29:19 <creat1001> I will think about it how I want to do it. Pondering
19:31:17 <rdrop-exit> Bytecoded VMs are easy and portable, at a huge cost in performance of course.
19:31:56 <creat1001> Yeah, mine is POSIX C now. 
19:32:44 <creat1001> Will copile on Windows at some point, but the libs I use I know work on wind
19:35:17 <creat1001> do you use valgrind any?
19:35:45 <rdrop-exit> Not at the moment
19:37:37 <creat1001> I used to use electric fence, but like valgrind better now.
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19:38:00 <rdrop-exit> Never heard of electric fence
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19:38:31 <rdrop-exit> * checking wikipedia
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19:39:06 <creat1001> you linked with it at link time then see it via gdb
19:39:59 <rdrop-exit> Don't think it'd be useful for me
19:40:02 <creat1001> valgrind lets you do free standing, thoes EF may have, It's been since 1998 since I last used it
19:41:30 <rdrop-exit> Electric Fence seems to be mostly for malloc() related checks. I have no use for malloc() in a vm.
19:48:14 <creat1001> Now, are you using the same vm the Retro is using?
19:48:43 <rdrop-exit> No
19:48:50 <crc> rdrop-exit has his own vm
19:48:59 <rdrop-exit> Hi crc!
19:49:02 <tp> gday creat1001 and  rdrop-exit 
19:49:03 <creat1001> I see, nice.
19:49:05 <tp> and crc!
19:49:05 <crc> hi rdrop-exit
19:49:11 <creat1001> hello tp and crc
19:49:18 <crc> hi tp
19:49:21 <rdrop-exit> Hi tp
19:49:33 <rdrop-exit> Hi John-Boy
19:49:44 <rdrop-exit> (you have to be old to get that joke)
19:50:13 <creat1001> Shutup Mary-Ellen
19:50:26 <rdrop-exit> very good! :))
19:51:16 <crc> the waltons?
19:51:24 <rdrop-exit> Correct!
19:51:40 <creat1001> I need to start printing some Christmas ornamates
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19:52:01 <creat1001> I watched it some, but not a lot
19:52:26 <rdrop-exit> There weren't that many channels at the time, not much choice
19:52:28 <creat1001> I was a Bob Newhart and Columbo kid 
19:52:39 <rdrop-exit> right on!
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19:53:51 <rdrop-exit> brb
19:56:45 <rdrop-exit> back
19:57:36 <rdrop-exit> c[]
19:57:58 <creat1001> wlecome
19:58:53 <creat1001> tp, what soldering rig you running?
19:59:00 <rdrop-exit> thx
19:59:22 <tp> creat1001, ever hear about the dyslexic who didn't believe in Dog ?
19:59:24 <tp> ;-)
20:00:04 <creat1001> :)  Dog, I belive in. Past that I will not say :)
20:00:05 <tp> creat1001, it's a thermaltronics tmt9000-s
20:00:49 <creat1001> tp nice!
20:00:52 <tp> I bought it because it had the largest range of tips I could see for any brand, much like metcal
20:01:03 <tp> but thermaltronics is a bit cheaper
20:01:20 <tp> even so, it's still pretty costly
20:02:04 <tp> the smallest tip is 0.5mm
20:02:17 <creat1001> I have a Hako fx-888d. alot cheaper, but a pain some times.  It's a real one and not a fake.
20:02:44 <tp> fakes are a massive problem I know
20:02:57 <tp> I think every tool sucks to some degree
20:02:58 <creat1001> Yeah, Mine came from Mouser
20:03:15 <tp> wo are very reputable
20:03:33 <creat1001> If mouser is selling fakes, then it's all over! :)
20:04:16 <tp> yep
20:04:18 <creat1001> I need a new element. I am thinking about some irion that has the elm in the tip
20:04:44 <tp> here is a pic of my smallest tip next to my favorite mcu : https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/stm32-boards.html?highlight=green#stm32f051k-mcu-qfn32-package
20:04:55 <tp> there is also a larger shovel tip in that pic
20:05:06 <tp> the pads on the MCU are 0.5mm wide
20:05:14 <creat1001> nice.
20:05:29 <tp> I'm a fan of dead bugging
20:05:47 <creat1001> I do a little smd, but not much yet. too many TH parts in drawers!
20:05:49 <tp> just for prototyping
20:06:15 <creat1001> db is nice and you seem to do it well
20:06:40 <tp> I have a ton of TH also, in fact some of my resistors date back to 1985 and theyre getting rusty!
20:07:35 <tp> Im lucky that Ive always had the hands of a brain surgeon (sadly I've the brains of a hand surgeon) and even at 65 they are rock steady
20:07:36 <creat1001> Do you ever use https://www.taydaelectronics.com for parts? 
20:07:47 <tp> no I havent
20:08:06 <tp> I'm in australia and have a lot of parts anyway, what I dont have I usually make
20:08:19 <creat1001> good for common stuff. And good qual for the price
20:08:34 <tp> cool, I'll note the url, thanks!
20:08:46 <creat1001> They are in Thailand
20:09:00 <tp> I have been using arrow.com for mcu's, they have awesome 'overstocked specials'
20:09:02 <creat1001> I get stuff in a week from them
20:09:10 <tp> not bad
20:09:24 <tp> takes me a week to get stuff from australia!
20:09:34 <tp> and Im already in auatralia !
20:09:49 <creat1001> I know Canada is so bad now post time wise.
20:10:00 <tp> creat1001, so what type of electronics interests you ?
20:11:01 <creat1001> I dink around with this and that. Mostly uC based stuff or Logic
20:11:36 <tp> using Forth on any mcu's ?
20:11:45 <creat1001> not yet.
20:11:51 <tp> C ?
20:11:57 <tp> assembly ?
20:11:57 <creat1001> C and asm
20:12:14 <tp> like 99.9% of the world :)
20:12:20 <creat1001> Oh and Visual Cobol
20:12:26 <creat1001> jk
20:12:41 <tp> Cobol is in big demand at banks
20:13:31 <creat1001> I wrote a converter to get rid of it at work a few years back. Cob to C#
20:13:35 <tp> and not enuf cobol programmers, so apparently cobol is a great way to earn good money atm
20:13:48 <tp> wow, serious stuff
20:14:15 <tp> whats your preferred mcu types ?
20:14:26 <creat1001> The jcl convertion os the hardest part I though 
20:15:06 <creat1001> used to be Pics, and 8051. I use whats cheap now 
20:15:18 <tp> I'm not a programmer, I'm a electronics tech, so I dont understand a fair bit of the programming discussions here
20:15:43 <tp> everythings cheap now, we live in a golden age of cheap mcus
20:15:56 <creat1001> oh yeah
20:16:05 <tp> how times have changed!
20:16:15 <tp> a mcu was a BIG expense once
20:16:30 <creat1001> and you needed a lot to program it
20:16:55 <tp> the first ever embedded job I had uses a National PACE cpu at $270 AUD in 1997 dollars
20:17:02 <tp> sure did
20:17:06 <creat1001> I don't even know where my prom grogrammer is :)
20:17:19 <tp> Ive ruined a LOT of mcus and eproms over the years
20:17:29 <creat1001> me too
20:17:41 <tp> yeah, programmers are a thing of the past mostly except in PIC land
20:18:27 <tp> see this pic ? https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/stm32-boards.html?highlight=green#green-pill-running-forth
20:18:36 <creat1001> I still do. Whoops, that was vcc not gnd!
20:18:50 <tp> that whole thing runs forth, and cost under $1.50
20:19:27 <creat1001> nice
20:20:01 <creat1001> I have one, the usb was gooked, but I could ISP it
20:20:04 <tp> lol, mine were very expensive chip kills back in the 70's where early fusible link proms needed 3 voltages applied in sequence with tight timing
20:20:32 <tp> if the rise time was out of spec for the 30v 'programming' pulse ... dead chip
20:20:55 <creat1001> Lets see, the old proms needed like 24 volts to programe if I remember rightr
20:21:09 <tp> I've tried to kill the stm32f051's I use and havent managed to yet
20:21:42 <tp> i cant recall exactly, I had to design the programmer and 30v sticks in my mind
20:21:56 <tp> maybe that was before the switching element
20:22:11 <tp> it was very stressy and expensive
20:22:25 <tp> I think about $30 a prom
20:22:51 <tp> which in 1976 was worth a lot more than it is today
20:23:07 <tp> could have been $60, I cant recall
20:24:21 <creat1001> Well, let me go off to bed. Will be on tomorrow night
20:24:39 <tp> cool, thanks for the chat!
20:24:48 <creat1001> ty. gday!
20:26:38 <rdrop-exit> bye creat1001!
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