00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.09.11 00:27:20 --- join: dys (~dys@2003:5b:203b:100:a64c:c8ff:fef4:13a6) joined #forth 00:32:06 --- quit: nullnullnull (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 00:32:48 --- join: nullnullnull (~nullnulln@31.154.190.34) joined #forth 00:36:38 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 00:54:50 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 00:55:45 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@h109-187-49-131.dyn.bashtel.ru) joined #forth 01:09:50 --- join: tpbsd (~Terry@2001:44b8:314b:a800::10) joined #forth 01:09:50 --- quit: tpbsd (Changing host) 01:09:50 --- join: tpbsd (~Terry@mecrisp/staff/tp) joined #forth 01:09:51 --- quit: tp (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01:14:16 --- quit: tpbsd (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01:14:22 --- join: tp (~Terry@mecrisp/staff/tp) joined #forth 01:47:59 --- join: dddddd (~dddddd@unaffiliated/dddddd) joined #forth 02:15:41 --- join: rdrop-exit (~markwilli@112.201.170.86) joined #forth 02:36:48 --- quit: mtsd (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03:01:33 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 03:01:55 --- join: jedb (~jedb@103.254.153.113) joined #forth 03:50:50 --- quit: dave0 (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 03:53:08 --- join: dave0 (~davezero@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 03:53:15 --- join: mtsd (~mtsd@94-137-100-130.customers.ownit.se) joined #forth 03:53:27 --- quit: Keshl (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 03:53:58 --- join: Keshl (~Purple@207.44.70.214.res-cmts.gld.ptd.net) joined #forth 05:35:51 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: Leaving) 05:36:25 --- join: mtsd (~mtsd@94-137-100-130.customers.ownit.se) joined #forth 05:46:01 --- quit: DKordic (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 06:28:40 --- quit: nullnullnull (Quit: Leaving) 06:28:47 --- join: ryke (~Thunderbi@71-9-171-192.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com) joined #forth 06:40:21 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: Leaving) 06:56:49 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 07:56:12 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 07:56:48 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 07:57:13 --- quit: sigjuice (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 08:17:19 --- join: sigjuice (~sigjuice@107.170.193.86) joined #forth 09:17:54 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 09:34:43 --- join: dys (~dys@tmo-116-106.customers.d1-online.com) joined #forth 10:47:02 --- join: WickedShell (~WickedShe@159-118-128-145.cpe.cableone.net) joined #forth 11:35:12 --- quit: djinni (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 11:42:19 --- join: djinni (~djinni@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de) joined #forth 11:52:51 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@172.58.99.211) joined #forth 12:12:28 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 14:59:50 --- quit: mark4 (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 15:57:39 --- quit: MrBismuth (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 15:57:39 --- join: MrBusiness3 (~ArcMrBism@68-113-127-142.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com) joined #forth 16:13:32 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@172.56.6.138) joined #forth 16:30:52 --- join: mark4_ (~mark4@rrcs-67-79-14-26.sw.biz.rr.com) joined #forth 16:34:03 --- quit: mark4 (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 16:50:47 --- join: dave0 (~davezero@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 17:47:04 --- join: tabemann (~tabemann@rrcs-162-155-170-75.central.biz.rr.com) joined #forth 18:04:34 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 18:33:26 --- quit: MrMobius (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 18:34:28 --- join: rdrop-exit (~markwilli@112.201.170.86) joined #forth 18:41:58 --- join: tabemann (~tabemann@2600:1700:7990:24e0:dda4:9a8f:b1:cf92) joined #forth 18:54:13 --- join: creat48 (63be2f20@99-190-47-32.lightspeed.chrlnc.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 19:05:52 --- join: karswell (~user@cust125-dsl91-135-5.idnet.net) joined #forth 19:11:44 --- quit: creat48 (Remote host closed the connection) 19:13:47 --- join: creat48 (63be2f20@99-190-47-32.lightspeed.chrlnc.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 19:22:47 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 19:27:51 --- part: creat48 left #forth 19:55:58 --- join: creat48 (63be2f20@99-190-47-32.lightspeed.chrlnc.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 19:58:09 Hello 19:58:56 gday! 19:59:56 to you as well. 20:11:54 hey 20:12:40 hey tabemann, how goes your hashforth today ? 20:14:03 haven't worked on it today 20:21:19 I've just updated my Forth development system notes 20:21:26 https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/devenv.html#devenv 20:21:49 it just describes how I build embedded projects using forth 20:23:16 it's a methodology I'm really happy with. While the Forth I use is very traditional, I can't use the old methods as theyre way too slow for me 20:26:34 very nice. PB's are great 20:27:32 I think I have about 103 open projects atm, so much to do, so little time! 20:30:15 I release so little now. I hate dealing with the trolls 20:30:18 tp: that's cool.. I do something similar with the upload, but I don't have RTS/CTS on most boards.. so I wait on/compied/abort as a response before sending the next line 20:31:21 creat48, and there are so many trolls :( 20:32:50 alex4nder, yeah, that's very common, some use Xon/Xoff, I just found it easier to use RTS handshaking as it's only a couple of lines added to the terminal.s within the Mecrisp-Stellaris tarball 20:33:04 yah, that makes sense 20:33:22 the dev boards just don't have it wired.. and usually USARTs are only used for the very start of bootstrap 20:33:56 it was the same for the tm4c1294 just a couple of lines 20:34:36 also true, anyone using USB on a dev board has no hardware handshaking available 20:36:12 luckily Mecrisp-Stellaris is very traditional and prefers to use the Usart, tho he had made the USB default for a couple of boards but luckily with a assembly switch to use a unattached usart 20:36:29 Yeah, usb to serial converters are nice, but chop off the uart badly 20:36:57 sure I *always* use USB serial, but in the form of a $0.90 usb/3.3 volt dongle 20:37:13 I get the ones that have all the control signals 20:37:50 the other advantage is rebooting the board doesnt kill my usb device 20:38:59 My latest uC projects are on the STC15W408AS, so it's choped as well uart wise 20:39:32 while technically any reasonable OS can use the USB chip ID code as a identifier, a lot of 'clones' dont have it and the OS may then attach the USB chip to any /dev 20:41:31 the STC15W408AS, it's a 8051 at heart ? 20:41:38 yeah 20:41:54 built-in isp 20:41:57 using Forth on it ? 20:42:30 C/asm for now with the current project 20:42:56 makes sense, how does the C compiler handle it re lack of stacks etc ? 20:43:02 I'm working on a forth system otherwise though 20:43:08 cool! 20:43:34 whats it like for assembly, not too horrible I hope ? 20:43:41 I use sdcc for it. 20:43:57 No, plain ole old intel asm 20:43:59 that makes sense, perfect choice 20:44:03 nothing bad or hard 20:44:16 and it's a Chinese chip ? 20:44:33 yeah. Cheap. 20:44:45 I am happy so far. 20:44:49 I've never programmed a 8051, my last intel was a 8085 20:45:23 I mainly programmed 6800, 6802, 6805, 68Hc11 back then 20:45:36 I did 8051 embedded in the early 90's and these chips caught my eye espacally with built in isp 20:45:51 thats a bonus 20:46:10 I did hc11, 8051 and z80 20:46:22 I just use a STM32 disco board programmer with SWD for my stm32 dev 20:46:34 6502 on my C64 and Vic 20 in the 80's! 20:46:52 I also did Z80 assembly for a commercial product, I'd forgotten! 20:47:18 Z80 is still my favorite micro proc 20:48:04 after 6800 I just didnt like the 6502 and it's 8 bit index register and subsequent 'paging' ops 20:48:39 the HC11 was my favorite, I never really liked Intel arch (just a personal thing) after 6800 20:49:01 but the Z80 was sure a gamechanger 20:49:20 Use what you like, thats the best to be happy and productive 20:49:27 absolutely 20:50:07 i think it was because i used 6800 first and it has a totally orthagonal isa 20:50:15 z80 was the first computer I built on my own 20:50:25 Never did 6800 20:50:39 Seen is a lot over the years though 20:50:56 when I look at the Atari Asteroids (commercial) boards I was amazed they were able to do so much, including the vector scanning video with one little 6502 20:51:35 yeah. Alot of work on the Atari 20:53:06 i had used National Semi PACE and it's little brother, plus the Motorolla 1 bit cpu before the 6800, but had only played with them 20:53:11 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@h109-187-49-131.dyn.bashtel.ru) joined #forth 20:55:01 nice. 20:55:09 I built a motor carriage positioning system for a client around 1985 that used a HC11. I did the code in assembly on a old SWTP6800 dev system I bought at a auction for $50. That job was incredible, I wrote the code and it worked first time 20:55:48 That sounded like fun. 20:56:17 it was really basic system, the motor used a cable to position the slide on one of about 8 positions on a 2 metre long rail 20:56:43 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 20:57:10 I did a stepper motor chopper drive in 1991 with a 8051. 20:57:33 Or 1990, one of those :) 20:58:02 each position was denoted by the domed head of a screw in the square tubular 'rail' so the system didnt know it was at the right position to stop the slide until a contact touched the screw 20:58:10 hehhe 20:58:43 before good sensors where avaliable ;) Nice work 20:59:04 by then of course it had overshot the position, so to fix that, it would immediately go into reverse for a fixed time 20:59:41 Yeah, I had a lot of time and code in my ramping of the steppers 21:00:09 a pot was used to set the fixed reversing time. The amazing thing was I calculate it all before the test and the slide appeared to stop exactly on the screw when the pot was in the centre of it's range 21:00:19 this was a brush motor 21:00:38 a servo type system then 21:01:10 yes a alanog servo with no decent positioning sensor on the motor 21:01:30 it was just a decent but cheap small brushed motor 21:01:46 the cable was string soaked in latex for grip 21:01:54 Yeah, encoders where quite pricey for most back then 21:02:06 they sure were 21:02:41 and AB enc was over 1k for the better ones 21:03:00 made in Germany! ;) 21:03:10 my first electronics job was around 1973 and I used to build encoders that used about 180 small reed relays on a pcb 21:03:45 wow, and now it's about $20 for a Chinese 1000ppr optical encoder 21:04:00 wow. Was it a linear encoder? Trying picture it 21:04:24 those old reed relays would implode if they got too hot while soldering also, was a fun job 21:04:51 crack the glass ah 21:05:50 it was a linear rotary encoder, a pcb about 4 inches in diameter with rotating magnet, they were used in industry on sheet steel roll forming machines to set the length of the product 21:06:12 Figured. Nice. 21:06:15 yeah,hermetic seals werent then what they are now :) 21:06:33 it's hard to tell a implosion from a explosion ;-) 21:06:43 I started in the late 80's working. 21:06:53 ahh, not long after me 21:07:12 I was born in 1953 making me almost 65 21:07:23 Back then it would have seemed longer, but no not that long :) 21:07:30 54 21:08:00 the problem back then wasnt the slippage of the rotary encoder on the oily steel sheet, it was the accursed TTL! 21:08:13 wow, a years apart in age 21:09:53 they would set say a length of 4 metres and a batch of 20 on the controller and it would be nicely working with a flying guilotine cutting to length and counting down the batch Nixie tube display when someone in the factory would strike a arc welder and the bloody batch counter might instantly change to 999 21:10:17 they were never able to fix that problem with TTL 21:10:50 along came 4000 series CMOS and all those problems stopped virtually overnight 21:10:56 Good ole emf noise 21:11:28 I used to keep a roll of Aluminium foil in my box 21:11:33 yeah, all you might see on the scopes of the day was a really fast 1000v spike on the mains power, sadly TTL saw it too 21:12:20 I've seen so many failed TTL projects and engineers I really liked sacked as a result 21:12:24 But back then you could stomp on a 74 chip and unbend the pins and it work 21:13:18 or wash it with metho to remove all of your blood from it after youd extracted it from your thumb after trying to prise it out od a socket ? 21:13:32 yeah :) 21:13:58 I used to have a really high current 0 - 5 volt power supply at one place I worked 21:14:37 Id be repairing large racks of TTL which always had dead TTL chips 21:14:54 and of course a dead TTL chip is good for about 30A 21:15:47 so Id turn up the psu to about a volt at ~30A and feel around for hot chips, replace them and repeat until the PSU showed about 3A 21:16:07 then I could start debugging the logic 21:17:07 nice 21:18:24 I may have started earlier than you as I left school at 16 and went straight into industry as a electronics technican 21:18:47 I wanted money and I wanted to work with electronics in the real world 21:19:26 I did 2.5 years of college and then dropped out due to no money. 21:19:31 as a electronics addict from the age of 9, Id read the 1954 ARRL handbook many times and built a lot of the projects using war surplus gear 21:20:06 so at 16 I was already work ready, I always got any electronics tech job I applied for 21:20:23 I could code, so I got a job programming and loved electronics since a small chiled and wiggled my way in 21:20:31 yeah, I had zero $$ as well, but a strong desire to get them doing what I loved 21:20:48 it's so easy when youre a electronics addict! 21:20:56 Mose kids do not have that now 21:21:04 no, it's a real shame 21:21:05 Most 21:21:34 the world has changed so much, I mean where would you and I be without "war surplus' electronics at that age ? 21:21:35 yeah. The computers of the 70's and 80's would not have been made today by them! 21:22:13 I could buy a brand new 1000W valve for $0.50 that would be $350 today 21:22:15 I took a lot of broken crap apart for parts. 21:22:23 oh me too 21:22:33 I have a rant about that on my site 21:22:39 yeah, they are crazy $$ now 21:23:32 https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/rants.html?highlight=rant#the-water-barons 21:23:47 i dispair for kids now 21:24:32 they dont know what they have missed in this new age of cheap Chinese junk predesigned and premade 21:25:06 yeah. Finding a silicon diode os a real find 21:25:46 it was! 21:26:45 --- quit: mark4_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 21:26:49 I remember finding a small box of germanium "ocxx" at the local rubbish tip, I spent weeks with them everyday after school wondering why I couldnt get them to work ... 21:27:37 it finally dawned on me, the reason was because they were all thrown away after being burnt out 21:27:51 :( 21:28:00 kinda obvious, but my enthuisasm had no bounds 21:28:36 what kid could afford a new germanium transistor back then ? 21:28:41 The old 60's germanium trans can's and diodes are hard to find now 21:28:58 thank God ;-) 21:29:22 What, no switching noise for you!? 21:29:26 Modern Fets are so superior any I think 21:29:51 oh yeah, I still manage lots of switching noise! 21:30:14 Oh yeah. Modern silicon is so better even when it's cheap 21:30:34 I made some PSUs using the very cool "pill" type germaniums extracted from old gear, but the thermal runnaway was pretty dissapointing 21:31:03 but those things were sure pretty in their gold plated 'pill' type cases 21:31:32 but who can beat a germanium point contact diode ? 21:31:34 Oh year, lots of gold plating back then 21:31:47 yeah. I can't type BTW :) 21:32:21 I remember my first crystal set was SO LOUD it was deafening on the AM band 21:32:49 youre making less typos than me, and I *really* can't type 21:33:11 nowdays who builds crystal sets ? 21:33:57 No one. I did mine from good ole radio shack germs 21:34:02 In fact a psu using a ih Q coil tuned to the local radio station would probably power a MSP430 mcu to blink a led every couple of minutes ? 21:34:41 yeah. These new uC are sooo low powered 21:35:07 as kids we built spark gap transmitters and use xtal sets to receive them, was a fun time 21:35:42 how thirsty for power is your STC15W408AS ? 21:36:35 I will run on a 3v coin cell with room to spare 21:37:02 at full speed 11.075 mhz 21:37:42 so far the best I can get from my STM32f051 is about 4uA ar 3.3v in deep sleep 21:38:01 It's one cycle per instruction and not 12 like 8051 21:38:07 ouch 21:38:42 I use a stm32f051 as I bought 480 of them in 32pin UFN back in 2014 for $0.56 USD each 21:38:51 It's has it's limits, but is working for what I need now. 21:38:56 nice 21:39:25 and lately Ive bought 10 STM32L053 for $0.48 AUD in 64 pin BGA 21:39:32 each 21:39:36 I wonder what the Open Power chip from IBM will bring in the comming few years or even months? 21:39:55 What seller? 21:41:02 looking now 21:42:22 arrow.com 21:42:43 Ive found them to be outstanding especially if you search on 'overstocked' 21:43:30 yes, I have seen them before, but not used. 21:43:46 I also bought 10x STM32L162RD for $0.90 usd each 21:43:57 they have 394KB flash etc 21:44:11 nice. 21:44:29 Who do you get PCB's made by? 21:44:39 if you havent used them before they usually offer 10% off and free shipping on the first few ordersto new customers 21:45:05 I dont, I hand wire or hand etch my own designs 21:45:25 I may give them a try. On a pre xmas spending halt :( 21:45:32 If I needed hundreds I'd probably order from some Chinese mfr 21:45:47 wise, arrow.com have EVERYTHING! 21:45:57 I used to wire wrap. 21:46:10 theyre fast and efficient, thos their website can be a bit slow with searches etc 21:46:27 I use JLCPCB for speed and cheapness 21:46:29 me too but not since the 70's :) 21:46:36 I've heard theyre good 21:46:47 but I'm in australia and it's so far away 21:47:04 I vero'ed some but Have always hated bread boards 21:47:14 Too much noise 21:47:25 eww vero sucks 21:47:34 here is what I've ben up to lately 21:47:37 p-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/prototyping.html?highlight=prototype 21:47:40 oops 21:47:56 https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/prototyping.html?highlight=prototype 21:48:09 I made a lot of proto boards for tinkering as of late. 21:48:21 atm I'm working on making my own tiny copper rivets 21:48:27 nice! 21:49:07 really nice! 21:49:27 not many people here actually get into our level of hardware, so you can always pop over #mecrisp if you want to get into the bare metal 21:49:43 it's more Forth language and coding here 21:50:02 no one has complained yet, so theyre very polite here as well :) 21:50:58 I maintain #mecrisp for mecrisp-stellaris by Matthias Koch bit it's also about bare metal and construction 21:50:59 Yeah, unlike the C chan 21:51:09 lol, like I'd EVER go there 21:51:47 I just started back tonight on IRC after probably 15 years 21:51:58 They are trolling there now 21:52:13 I use to use C before Forth but now I find C ie Gcc just so mega complex Ive lost interest completely in C on embedded 21:52:16 IRC = Trolling or the Internet = Trolling 21:52:26 wow! 21:52:37 15 years, crazy, welcome back! 21:52:41 ty 21:53:48 I have always loved forth every since 1983 when I got it for my C64 21:54:04 this is a awesome Forth language channel, I resisted joining for ages based on the kinda talk I've seen on comp.os.forth but here is very different 21:54:33 but Im glad Ive joined, there are some real ZEN Forth types here 21:55:02 nice. 21:55:47 On the C chan I got trolled first line I typed. 21:56:07 i didnt start learning Forth until 2014 after thinking about Forth since 1996 when I had to build hardware for a company I was working for and the enthusiasm of the Forth programmers there really stood out 21:56:17 hahah 21:56:31 was the word 'forth' in that first line ? 21:56:51 nice. I have tinkered with it on and off, but nother major 21:56:57 heheh 21:57:19 No, A guy asked about mallocing an array 21:57:44 https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/first-rule-of-forth.html#first-rule-of-forth 21:57:51 And I was quicky tolk it was not the way to do it. 21:58:15 yeah, C people in general are so certain they know and theyre right 21:58:39 some C professionals are here, so I'm NOT describing them 21:58:52 I sent him this link: https://github.com/jscottb/listque 21:59:11 I know how to properly use pointers and malloc. 21:59:59 thats your site ? 22:00:12 my code, yes. 22:00:16 cool 22:02:14 the great thing about Forth is that no one is a expert as every Forth is different ;-) 22:02:51 even the creator of Forth once said when asked "what is forth" ... "I can't say for sure, but I know it when I see it" 22:03:26 yeah. Forth takes a different mind set. I loved the start small and build on that. 22:04:00 considering the immense complexity of C, I'm not really sure about anyone who presents aggressively as a C expert 22:04:27 I used to sleep wit hthe White book ;) 22:04:29 Forth sure does require a different mindset 22:04:43 Well, I guess thats not really a joke, I did 22:04:48 K&R ? 22:04:54 Oh yeah 22:05:14 EVERYONE RUN!!!! A C ZEALOT IS HERE!!! 22:05:20 :) 22:05:27 I did not date, so needed company ;) 22:05:57 I used to sleep with my 1954 ARRL handbook 22:06:04 eheh 22:06:08 geeks 22:06:33 I had to as most girls I dated soon chewed thru their ropes and ran away 22:06:39 :) 22:07:02 how I loved that ARRL book! 22:07:03 I married a bind date. 26 years 22:07:30 wow, almost as good as arranged date, at least ones parents have some clue 22:08:03 oops I mean t arranged marriage 22:08:34 I was going though a relay computer build at the time and she though it was the craziest thing she had ever seen 22:09:05 Well, my mother did set it up. or at least recomend it 22:09:39 bargain! 22:10:28 when I was divorced my mother said to me "i never liked her". I was astounded and asked her why she never told me, to which she replied "you wouldnt have listened to me" 22:10:45 I have to admit she was right 22:11:25 lol. yeah. The smartest and most stupid thing on our planet is us. 22:11:30 so true 22:11:47 Well. I need to go to bed. 22:12:07 Nice chatting with you. I'll return soon 22:12:44 I have your page up and will look more tomorrow 22:13:12 my wise mother kicked that pristine 1954 ARRL handbook to bits in front of me one day (in a fit of rare rage) when my school results came in, all were failed or mediocre. She said "terry you have to give up this electronics thing because it will never come to anything" .... bad call mum! 22:13:38 no worries, a great pleasure chatting to you! 22:14:01 yeah. My mother was unsure of computer programming :) 22:14:08 you to. 22:14:09 heheh 22:14:13 g'night 22:14:25 gday :) 22:16:46 --- join: ryke (~Thunderbi@71-9-171-192.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com) joined #forth 22:22:36 --- quit: remexre (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 22:23:56 --- join: remexre (~nathan@x-160-94-179-186.acm.umn.edu) joined #forth 23:27:53 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@184.82.225.150) joined #forth 23:27:53 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 23:43:29 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.09.11