00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.07.26 00:33:21 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 02:37:45 --- join: X-Scale` (~ARM@110.81.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt) joined #forth 02:40:40 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 02:40:41 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 02:50:21 --- join: lisbeths (~user@2601:601:8300:1fff:d10e:cfac:3b71:98d0) joined #forth 02:50:56 I haven't been on reddit since I deleted my account. I am thinking that I want to maintain the dc program. 03:01:28 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 03:05:50 dc – desk calculator RPN ? 03:07:49 Yes. It was intended as a compiler target. It is concatenative because it was written for an old pdp-something-or-other. 03:10:44 good on ya for wanting to maintain it. PDP-11/08 were the awesome computer to get access on when I was in my 20's 03:11:24 I never did get near one, not being academically inclined, but I settled on a National PACE instead :) 03:12:20 the PACE had all the cool front panel switches that one could enter machine code into, *plus* a assembler and high speed tape from the teletype printer 03:16:19 You can go see a PDP-11/08 in a meuseum. 03:16:53 not in Australia, but I couldnt care about them now, as a electronics tech I hate old hardware 03:17:20 the STM32F051 mcu's I use Forth on are way more capable than that old gear 03:17:42 the old gear was awesome at the time, but that time is long gone 03:18:42 I once loved vacuum tubes, now I think they're nice to look at, glass and metal but Id never use one again 03:21:44 My level of abstraction isn't as close to the microcontroller as that, but sometimes for research I have to get that close. I work above the operating system level in unix systems. I am looking to use forth to solve some unix problems. 03:22:25 The first model of PDP-11, (priced 20000 USD), named PDP-11/20, was shipped in the spring of 1970. It had word length 16 bits, speed 800 nanoseconds, the cycle time was 1.5 microseconds and the access time, 0.75 microseconds. The CPU had eight 16-bit registers, six general purpose, the stack pointer and the program counter. Primary memory was magnetic core, 56 Kbytes (28 KWords) maximum (some documentation referred to 32k max memory, but the top 4k was 03:22:26 reserved for the I/O space). Initial software included symbolic editor, debugger, utilities. PAL Architecture was UNIBUS. The console is TTY ASR33. The typical I/O was a papertape reader/punch. 03:22:55 awesome :) 03:24:39 PAL is like gate array logic? 03:25:03 compare that $20000 USD PDP-11 machine to a STM32F051 MCU costing $0.56 ... the STM32F051 has more memory, runs at 48Mhz, is 32 bit, has 33 inbuilt peripherals :) 03:25:51 lisbeths, yes I'd say so, but Ive never been into FPGA's myself, I'm pretty much MCU only in the digital world thesedays 03:26:30 hmm, maybe not 03:27:20 The PAL architecture consists of two main components: a logic plane and output logic macrocells. Programmable logic plane. The programmable logic plane is a programmable read-only memory (PROM) array that allows the signals present on the device pins, or the logical complements of those signals, to be routed to output logic macrocells. 03:27:57 I guess PAL was a early kind of FPGA but used a PROM 03:28:56 I think green arrays chip should be an FPGA 03:29:21 nah they wouldn't be low-powered then 03:29:42 probably less efficient too because each F18 is async 03:29:56 and usually on 4-port read (i.e. sleep) mode 03:31:10 WilhelmVonWeiner, you're familiar with the GA-144 ? 03:33:33 I've gone through the datasheets and played with the sim in colorForth 03:33:51 currently I haven't used my physical chips because the schmartboard sucks 03:34:06 at one point pointfree was working on a board for it? not sure where that went 03:34:18 nice, it's about all one can do unless one has tons of money to buy their dev board 03:34:53 I don't have tons of money but I do want the board 03:35:14 if the version 2 dev board still supported colorForth I'd be more inclined 03:35:21 i took one look at colour Forth and and went outside to throw up ;) not for me! 03:35:32 The issue I have is that an fpga version of a green arrays chip would be more affordable 03:36:25 the chip is 35 bucks 03:37:01 but on an fpga why not just write the code that does whatever you'rer trying to do? or a forth cpu of your own design, or your own implementation? 03:37:08 the GA-144 is only $20 in lots of 10, which is really cheap in my opinion. That National Semi PACE chip back in 1975 was $270 AUD just for the chip 03:37:13 an f18a implementation shouldn't be hard at all 03:37:49 a 6800 cpu was $40 in 1970's money which was HUGE 03:39:04 the schmartboard really sucked because their "EZ" soldering design is piss poor 03:39:09 just let my use my heat gun 03:39:54 lisbeths, we have mecrisp-ice that runs on james bowmans cpu in a FPGA : 03:39:57 Mecrisp-Ice is an enhanced version of Swapforth and the J1a stack processor by James Bowman, featuring three MSP430 style IO ports, a tick counter, constant folding, inlining and tail-call optimisations. As Mecrisp traditionally has been friendly to flash memory, you can save your Forth programs into the onboard SPI flash, you can even make it run automatically on boot. Ready-to-fly bitstreams for your various HX1K and HX8K targets are included ! 03:40:59 http://mecrisp.sourceforge.net/ 03:46:42 All of this hardware stuff is great for most other forth prorammers but in the area I work on the hardware is not as close to the code. 03:48:59 lisbeths, apologies, I have a total hardware bias being a tech but of course most here are from the Forth software side 03:49:41 Do you ever use forth in a virtual machine in a datacenter? 03:50:28 not me, I'm Forth on real mcus only, but others here may ? 03:50:38 * crc does 03:52:34 Companies that work in virutal machines in datacenters have way different requirements than companies that want you to program microcontrollers. 03:53:00 Speed and minimalism are not prioritized over scalability and security. 03:53:18 Backwards compatibility. 03:54:30 I use Retro for managing some SIP stuff on a box somewhere ,don't tell my boss tho 04:01:59 WilhelmVonWeiner: sounds interesting :) 04:09:32 it's mostly doing string manipulations to structure some customer data 04:40:50 --- quit: lisbeths (Remote host closed the connection) 04:59:48 --- join: lisbeths (~user@c-73-225-140-252.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) joined #forth 05:13:13 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 05:25:01 --- quit: kori (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 05:33:42 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@2403:6200:89a6:8231:4c80:8669:727c:4466) joined #forth 05:33:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 05:53:30 --- join: rdrop-exit (~markwilli@112.201.174.189) joined #forth 05:59:35 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Remote host closed the connection) 05:59:53 --- join: rdrop-exit (~markwilli@112.201.174.189) joined #forth 06:02:01 --- quit: xek__ (Remote host closed the connection) 06:02:25 --- join: xek__ (~xek@apn-31-0-23-83.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl) joined #forth 06:06:40 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 06:07:23 --- join: rdrop-exit (~markwilli@112.201.174.189) joined #forth 06:07:36 --- join: dddddd (~dddddd@unaffiliated/dddddd) joined #forth 06:11:50 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 06:47:00 --- quit: xek__ (Remote host closed the connection) 06:47:37 --- join: xek__ (~xek@apn-31-0-23-83.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl) joined #forth 07:29:01 --- quit: xek__ (Remote host closed the connection) 07:29:32 --- join: xek__ (~xek@apn-31-0-23-83.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl) joined #forth 07:33:52 --- join: kori (~kori@arrowheads/kori) joined #forth 07:52:41 --- quit: deesix (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 07:59:35 --- join: deesix (~dddddd@unaffiliated/dddddd) joined #forth 08:08:22 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 08:32:29 --- quit: lisbeths (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 08:51:30 --- quit: xek__ (Remote host closed the connection) 08:51:58 --- join: xek__ (~xek@apn-31-0-23-83.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl) joined #forth 09:05:53 --- join: wildtrees (~wildtrees@unaffiliated/wildtrees) joined #forth 09:57:32 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 11:12:56 --- quit: cantstanya (Remote host closed the connection) 11:15:23 --- join: cantstanya (~chatting@gateway/tor-sasl/cantstanya) joined #forth 11:16:11 --- quit: wildtrees (Remote host closed the connection) 11:39:48 --- join: wildtrees (~wildtrees@unaffiliated/wildtrees) joined #forth 12:08:20 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 13:01:32 --- quit: the_cuckoo (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 14:23:37 --- quit: wildtrees (Quit: Leaving) 14:32:58 --- join: ryke (~Thunderbi@24-158-196-134.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com) joined #forth 15:12:53 --- quit: xek__ (Remote host closed the connection) 16:22:05 --- quit: ryke (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 16:42:59 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 16:51:13 --- quit: john_cephalopoda (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 17:04:37 --- join: john_cephalopoda (~john@unaffiliated/john-cephalopoda/x-6407167) joined #forth 17:25:03 --- join: jedb_ (~jedb@123.208.26.165) joined #forth 17:27:35 --- join: PoppaVic (~PoppaVic@unaffiliated/poppavic) joined #forth 17:29:10 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 17:29:11 --- quit: proteusdude (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 17:31:12 --- quit: jedb_ (Remote host closed the connection) 17:31:38 --- join: jedb (~jedb@123.208.26.165) joined #forth 17:35:10 --- join: lisbeths (~user@c-73-225-140-252.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:42:48 --- join: proteusdude (~proteusgu@cm-58-10-208-146.revip7.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 17:42:48 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusdude 17:44:26 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 18:39:56 My goal in taking maintainership of the dc program is to make dc into more of a forth so that every posix compliant machine comes with a working forth on it 18:42:26 a worthy goal :) 18:44:49 My own forth is a cheap clone of dc and it's object code is 11 kilobytes. So I am getting very close to being able to write my own forth in asm. I am not sure if I want to take the leap though. I think I want my forth to be written in either c or fortran. 19:19:08 being Posix will it run on a Linux running on a RPI ? 19:19:19 or a Odroid ? 19:19:26 or a RISC-V ? 19:26:02 if the nix environment is posix compliant and runs my version of posix dc then yes 19:31:04 if you write it in C or fortran then it may run on other architectures but if assembler then only X86 arch ? 20:26:09 --- quit: kori (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 20:33:26 --- join: kori (~kori@arrowheads/kori) joined #forth 20:35:13 From what I have read, learning to write assembler in a second assembler is much easier than the first. So not really 21:08:11 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@h109-187-197-17.dyn.bashtel.ru) joined #forth 21:12:14 --- quit: PoppaVic (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 21:16:37 --- join: PoppaVic (~PoppaVic@unaffiliated/poppavic) joined #forth 21:16:38 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 21:20:47 --- quit: lisbeths (Remote host closed the connection) 21:24:14 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 21:52:32 --- quit: PoppaVic (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 21:55:33 --- quit: jedb (Remote host closed the connection) 21:55:59 --- join: jedb (~jedb@123.208.26.165) joined #forth 21:58:54 --- join: PoppaVic (~PoppaVic@unaffiliated/poppavic) joined #forth 22:16:16 --- join: dys (~dys@p200300C9D737590002265EFFFEE968D2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 23:29:35 --- part: PoppaVic left #forth 23:52:56 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.07.26