00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.07.05 00:07:07 --- join: xek (~xek@89-65-139-184.dynamic.chello.pl) joined #forth 00:22:23 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 00:24:30 --- join: john_metcalf (~digital_w@host31-54-142-171.range31-54.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 00:50:18 --- join: mtsd (~mtsd@94-137-100-130.customers.ownit.se) joined #forth 01:10:24 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 01:11:59 --- quit: karswell_ (Remote host closed the connection) 01:13:23 --- join: karswell_ (~user@cust125-dsl91-135-5.idnet.net) joined #forth 02:15:19 Yeah, writing an x86 assembler is ... not gonna work. That's no longer really a single-person, part-time, side project. 02:29:34 ttmrichter, ever used a sd card as removable memory for a stm32 based data logger ? 02:48:41 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: Leaving) 02:49:56 --- join: dys (~dys@2003:5b:203b:102:226:5eff:fee9:68d2) joined #forth 03:36:25 --- join: xek (~xek@89-65-139-184.dynamic.chello.pl) joined #forth 03:40:23 --- quit: john_metcalf (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 03:56:30 --- quit: karswell_ (Remote host closed the connection) 03:57:52 --- join: karswell_ (~user@cust125-dsl91-135-5.idnet.net) joined #forth 05:26:37 --- quit: xek (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 05:26:43 --- join: xek_ (~xek@89-65-139-184.dynamic.chello.pl) joined #forth 05:35:19 --- join: dddddd (~dddddd@unaffiliated/dddddd) joined #forth 05:45:41 finally :) 05:45:44 2 wx t1 05:45:44 Interactive Assembly Mode 05:45:45 20000396: B500 push { lr } 05:45:45 20000398: 2201 movs r2 #1 05:45:45 2000039A: 0492 lsls r2 r2 #12 05:45:45 2000039C: 2301 movs r3 #1 05:45:47 2000039E: 039B lsls r3 r3 #E 05:45:49 200003A0: 3F04 subs r7 #4 05:45:51 200003A2: 603E str r6 [ r7 #0 ] 05:45:53 200003A4: 18D6 adds r6 r2 r3 05:45:55 200003A6: BD00 pop { pc } 05:45:57 word.start = 20000398 05:45:59 word.end = 200003A5 05:46:01 number of data bytes = hex:0E decimal:14 05:46:03 :0E0000000122920401239B03043F3E60D6187 05:46:05 :00000001FF 05:46:07 ok. 05:46:18 two modes so far, the 'normal' words and the 'interactive assembly words' 05:47:02 and my code has been totally rewritten and looks ok, basic, redarded Forth noob mode but ok 05:47:57 as opposed to rushed mad persons breakfast mode 07:09:28 --- quit: karswell_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 07:10:35 --- join: karswell_ (~user@cust125-dsl91-135-5.idnet.net) joined #forth 07:39:20 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 07:57:12 --- join: john_metcalf (~digital_w@host31-54-142-171.range31-54.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 08:08:44 --- quit: john_metcalf (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 08:09:59 --- quit: xek_ (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 08:19:21 --- join: cnidario (~aaa@92.57.58.87) joined #forth 08:29:04 --- join: dys (~dys@tmo-109-13.customers.d1-online.com) joined #forth 08:37:44 --- quit: karswell_ (Remote host closed the connection) 08:39:21 --- join: karswell_ (~user@cust125-dsl91-135-5.idnet.net) joined #forth 08:51:42 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@172.56.7.135) joined #forth 08:52:19 just fixed a stupid bug in x4's terminfo parsing that made x4 NOT work in any terminals that were using an extended terminfo format (such as xterm-256) 08:52:32 to run in those terminals you would have to to export TERM=xterm 08:52:41 fixed 08:53:05 terminfo parsing for extended terminfo files seems to be working now 09:09:08 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 09:15:41 --- quit: mark4 (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 09:43:40 back 09:43:45 hey guys 10:01:42 mark4: could I use your terminfo parser (so I can port it to hashforth)? currently what I have is hardcoded ANSI input parsing/output generation 10:05:02 well, a mixture of ANSI and DEC 10:09:19 --- join: mtsd (~mtsd@94-137-100-130.customers.ownit.se) joined #forth 10:22:55 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 10:24:30 --- quit: cnidario (Remote host closed the connection) 10:29:10 oh duh mark4 left 10:29:16 * tabemann slaps self 10:38:20 --- quit: mtsd (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 10:48:39 --- quit: karswell_ (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 11:01:40 --- join: mtsd (~mtsd@94-137-100-130.customers.ownit.se) joined #forth 11:11:57 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@172.56.6.86) joined #forth 11:18:07 --- quit: mark4 (Quit: brb) 11:24:55 --- quit: mtsd (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 12:15:49 --- join: mtsd (~mtsd@94-137-100-130.customers.ownit.se) joined #forth 12:50:50 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 12:54:34 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 12:59:51 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@172.56.7.176) joined #forth 13:02:20 tabemann: https://github.com/mark4th/x4/tree/master/src/ext/terminal (LGPL licensed) 13:02:33 sort of 13:02:52 modified lgpl which i should probably just convert to some other well known licence 13:03:06 i allow you to create commercial activities without releasing your own sources 13:03:31 even tho your executable is going to have portions derrived from my code too 13:05:09 is that *the license* or *you* allowing that 13:05:21 the licence specifically states this 13:05:29 cool 13:05:40 True. LGPL except “Section 5, paragraph 2 of the LGPL does not apply to x4.” 13:06:05 use my compiler to create some multi trillion dollar a month application and NOBODY can force you to release your sources. if they try... just poin them to my github :) 13:06:47 and i totoally do NOT understand why that section even exists, it basically NULLIFIES lgpl for statically linked libraries 13:07:06 who cares WHEN "x" is linked into "y" 13:07:07 LGPL was designed for dynamic linking 13:07:13 yup 13:07:31 no such think as dynamic linking of forth applications into the forth kernel. its always static :) 13:07:34 because dynamic linking means the user has had some involvement in the installation of free software, independent of the proprietary source 13:07:37 so my code is LGPL but different 13:07:55 which does not modify the licence of the linked library 13:08:10 no, but the two become somewhat indistinguishable 13:08:17 brb need water before I die 13:08:20 if a piece of my code is [my code][your code] then if YOUR code is GPL mine should be what ever i want 13:08:32 dont die! 13:09:00 I don't think that's how GPL works, though. That's why it's so tacky. 13:09:06 I think that's LGPL. 13:09:45 GPL seems to reflect a "communist" mindset to me. 13:09:51 it is LGPL 13:10:10 It only makes sense if you assume from the jump that our creations belong to one another. 13:10:10 GPL is not nearly enough to be really communist 13:10:11 gpl is if you link to my code in any way my licence infects your code like a virus 13:10:13 GPL is NOT communist 13:10:20 Parity might be 13:10:29 KipIngram: https://citations-celebres.fr/citations/1929900-richard-stallman-isnt-it-ironic-that-the-proprietary-software-deve/ 13:11:07 back 13:11:10 as an anarchist capitalist I fully support the GPL and the way it turns the legal inanity of "copyright" on it's head 13:11:21 if i invent a compression algorithm that achieves 99% compression on all data fed to it i deserve the money my patent brings me 13:11:24 period 13:11:37 I agree 100%. 13:11:51 Disagree solely because you cannot own information 13:11:59 I personally use the BSD3 license just the most people can use my code overall - in principle I support the GPL 13:12:00 who says? 13:12:05 HOW cann i not own information? 13:12:07 reality says 13:12:21 then you have a right to the information in my head? 13:12:37 just because I wrote it down does not make it public domain 13:12:41 if i say "a firehose that sprays custard", there's nothing to say I own that concept or information 13:12:43 Every patent granted since day one is about owning information. 13:12:45 an author of a book OWNS his material 13:12:56 Correct. 13:12:57 information exists on it's own 13:13:07 Information is created. 13:13:11 It has a point of origin. 13:13:15 mark4: A revolutionary compression algorithm might seem patent-worthy to you, but where does it stop? 13:13:23 * tabemann thinks that it was right for Linus to have chosen the GPL 2 - look at home other people have taken from BSD without giving back, whereas people modifying Linux (unless they manage to hide it) have to give back 13:13:30 even if you "create" it, to own it is nonsense: you cannot own something which physically does not exist 13:13:36 Now, I don't think you should own your algorithm forever. 13:13:37 the information is just conceptual 13:13:38 tabemann: that's not what the GPL means 13:13:44 john_cephalopoda, if i have produced something new i get to sell it and YOU do not get to use it without my permission 13:13:50 it just means that when you do share it back, you have to do it under the GPL 13:13:50 not forever 13:13:50 I think you should get a patent that gives you exclusive right to profit for N years. 13:13:54 Then it becomes public domain. 13:13:58 even a description of the algorithm would solely be a physical representation of this abstract concept 13:14:03 agreed 13:14:03 Because you can't make any money off of it unless there is a market. 13:14:08 IP laws mean you can own abstract concepts 13:14:11 Parity, however, requires that you *do* share any modifications you make 13:14:16 that is obviously inane 13:14:17 An orderly society that maintains economic sanity, etc. 13:14:24 and that's why I've been preferring it over the GPL 13:14:49 but this ain't related to forth so im going to shut up 13:14:50 Parity is nonfree 13:14:57 It takes that whole society / economy in order for any of us to "achieve profit." 13:15:01 WilhelmVonWeiner: by FSF's or the OSI's standards 13:15:02 I actually have some improvements to dynamic huffman that i "invented" 13:15:03 So in that sense we're "in it together." 13:15:04 I don't really care though 13:15:06 but have never published 13:15:10 kori: yes, it does mean that when you share it you have to do so under the GPL... but that's essentially what "giving back" means 13:15:22 mark4: But what if that algorithm is very simple? Your compression algorithm might not be patentable because it relies on "adding 8 to a number", which has been patented by somebody along the line. 13:15:33 tabemann: yeah but you don't really *have* to share it back 13:15:37 if i take YOUR gpl compression and make tweaks to it i agree... those tweaks are GPL 13:16:16 mark4: Algorithms is all maths, and I think that maths shouldn't be patentable since it is just objective truth and not creativity. 13:16:40 john for example i could patent a huristic that improves ALL compression algoritms 13:16:41 I don't think the patent system is perfect. 13:16:43 if maths shouldn't be patentable; what separates maths from any other concept 13:16:46 if i invented such 13:16:48 as for the GPL being Communist... it's not Communist because Communism is an oppressive, authoritarian system in which no one is free 13:16:56 tabemann: incorrect 13:17:01 note I said Communism not communism 13:17:05 you're thinking of stalinism 13:17:11 lol 13:17:12 GPL is NOT communist, says Stallman himself: https://citations-celebres.fr/citations/1929900-richard-stallman-isnt-it-ironic-that-the-proprietary-software-deve/ 13:17:16 In theory, mark4, if you patent your compression, but then I "invent it" for myself - without reverse engineering your work - I should at least get to use my own creation for my own personal purposes. 13:17:16 nah, Maoism isn't any better 13:17:25 But in the US you technically aren't supposed to do that, even. 13:17:52 but again 13:17:58 shouldn't this be moved to an offtopic channel? 13:18:03 do we have one? 13:18:04 is there a #forth-offtopic? 13:18:04 Of course, if I'm really using it only for personal purposes no one should really know. 13:18:10 i dont know 13:18:16 kori: Huh, you are here, too? 13:18:19 if someone has anything about Forth to interject with I'm sure we'd all shut up 13:18:24 Yeah, we are clearly OT here - no doubt. 13:18:24 Hi kori! :D 13:18:28 john_cephalopoda: Forth is great :) 13:18:32 hi john_cephalopoda ! 13:18:37 the GPL is not communist either, since communism (as opposed to Communism) is a system in which there is collective ownership of the means of production 13:18:39 Forth is goorth 13:18:59 note that "collective overship" need not be state ownership 13:19:10 gotta pack up and go home. bbl 13:19:15 * crc shouldn’t have mentioned the isforth license... 13:19:24 I want to implement a Forth old school style 13:19:30 tabemann: collective ownership necessarily is not state ownership 13:19:36 the soviet union was state capitalist 13:19:38 anyway 13:19:40 yes 13:19:40 offtopic 13:19:42 it as 13:19:42 im going to shut up for real now 13:19:43 *was 13:19:46 right now I do it like Retro and write a VM that implements an underlying instruction set 13:20:39 But I kind of want to write something like jonesforth 13:21:24 though I don't know assembler, I have no idea of how I'd implement it in C 13:21:40 The level of abstraction provided by C turns out to be a pain in the ass 13:22:27 WilhelmVonWeiner: gcc has pointers to labels - I successfully did an indirect threaded system using that. 13:22:39 I feel sure you could do direct threaded as well using it. 13:22:43 both Forths I have implemented have been in C - one in a lot of C, one to relatively little C 13:22:55 That extra indirection was explicit in my NEXT code; could have been left out. 13:23:05 But that restricts you to gcc only. 13:23:16 --- quit: mark4 (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 13:23:24 I saw an example for that called Reforth - though the source is a little complex to grok without a lot of work KipIngram 13:23:55 my previous Forth was ITC and my current Forth is TTC, but both of the implemnt primitive calls as simple C function calls 13:24:21 tabemann: I think I'll take a look at attoforth sources over the weekend 13:24:31 the attoforth sources are horrifying 13:24:33 I kept mine as simple as I could - I've got it on my drive if you're interested in seeing any of it. 13:24:45 look at the hashforth sources instead 13:24:58 lol hashforth it is 13:25:00 KipIngram: please 13:25:16 What's your email? 13:25:25 dch@hashbang.sh 13:25:38 Ok, I'll shoot you a message in a few minutes. 13:25:46 cheers mate 13:25:46 https://github.com/tabemann/hashforth 13:26:14 tabemann: I've got it bookmarked 13:26:38 attoforth attempts to essentially implement Forth in C, and use that to compile another Forth on top of it 13:26:58 it's also preemptive multitasking, which makes things far too complex 13:27:04 :q 13:27:07 Ooops. 13:28:33 it does have some features hashforth lacks aside from that, such as floating point, but I decided I didn't need that, and considering that hashforth is meant to be ported to other systems, its targets may lack it altogether 13:29:16 on the other hand, hashforth has some features that attoforth lacks, such as trapping signals and displaying backtraces 13:29:59 which in an embedded system would readily be turned into trapping processor exceptions 13:31:41 WilhelmVonWeiner: Just sent you an email. 13:32:09 one note - you need a 64-bit little-endian POSIX system to run this, or furthermore to port it to other systems 13:32:57 KipIngram: recieved, cheers mate, will give it a good look 13:43:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +v crc 13:47:16 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: Leaving) 13:47:47 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@rrcs-67-79-14-26.sw.biz.rr.com) joined #forth 13:48:35 wb 13:49:35 tyty 13:49:39 working in austin tx 13:50:04 went in to work today ONLY to work on my own shit so I would not have motel distractions all day 14:38:21 --- quit: mark4 (Remote host closed the connection) 15:42:39 I was going to ask about the motel thing 15:46:19 right, he said many moons ago that he lives in a motel. 15:46:34 --- quit: dne (Remote host closed the connection) 15:47:32 back 15:48:17 I was assuming that he was away from home at where he works, hence the motel 15:48:38 (because motels are typically more expensive than renting) 15:48:53 --- join: dne (~dne@jaune.mayonnaise.net) joined #forth 16:17:48 --- quit: john_cephalopoda (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 16:20:35 --- join: john_cephalopoda (~john@unaffiliated/john-cephalopoda/x-6407167) joined #forth 16:22:40 hey 16:37:17 hello 16:37:42 g'day kori 16:39:00 evening tp :) 16:39:47 kori, it's 9:38 am here in wet and cloudy New South Wales :) 16:41:43 kori, interestingly the first Aboriginal peoples in this region are the "koori" nation 16:42:08 i've heard of them :) 16:42:13 its currently... 16:42:17 19h41 here 16:42:39 EST :) 16:43:11 wow, not too many Americans would have heard of them I would think 16:43:11 not quite 16:43:16 gmt -3 i think 16:43:23 or -4 16:43:25 i dont remember 16:43:50 tp: i'm brazilian with a seasonal interest in anthropology :D 16:44:00 kori, aha! 16:44:10 and Forth ! 16:44:46 * Zarutian refraines from the usual Brazillion joke. 16:46:31 --- quit: dne (Remote host closed the connection) 16:46:50 * tp doesnt know a single Brazilian joke. knows plenty of Ausie, English and Irish ones tho, different part of the world I guess 16:47:58 --- join: dne (~dne@jaune.mayonnaise.net) joined #forth 16:50:31 --- quit: cantstanya (Remote host closed the connection) 16:52:56 --- join: cantstanya (~chatting@gateway/tor-sasl/cantstanya) joined #forth 16:59:14 --- quit: Zarutian (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 16:59:54 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@173-133-17-89.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 17:04:34 I stumbled across a handy tool for working with rejected patches, it's called wiggle 17:04:41 "The distinctive difference of wiggle is that it will attempt to apply a 17:04:41 patch even if the "before" part of the patch doesn't match the target 17:04:41 file perfectly. This is achieved by breaking the file and patch into 17:04:41 words and finding the best alignment of words in the file with words in 17:04:42 the patch. Once this alignment has been found, any differences (word- 17:04:44 wise) in the patch are applied to the file as best as possible." 18:04:39 back 18:04:54 --- join: karswell (~user@cust125-dsl91-135-5.idnet.net) joined #forth 18:06:40 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 18:16:05 --- join: karswell (~user@cust125-dsl91-135-5.idnet.net) joined #forth 19:11:14 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 19:30:22 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 19:34:19 hi 19:35:06 gda'y dave0 19:35:15 hi tp 19:35:58 wet and cool here, a lovely day 19:36:21 --- quit: karswell (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19:37:49 --- join: karswell (~user@cust125-dsl91-135-5.idnet.net) joined #forth 20:57:55 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@h109-187-239-230.dyn.bashtel.ru) joined #forth 20:58:44 tp: Your new tool is these guys? http://www.thewiggles.com/ 20:59:08 hahahhha 21:01:20 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 21:02:22 ttmrichter, thanks to Wiggle, my "Patch Fear and Uncertainty" is mostly gone now 21:12:54 Well, it's not a bad show so I guess ... whatever works? At least it's not Barney. 21:16:04 it's a kids show i think 21:16:54 wiggle doesnt even give a url, just "AUTHOR 21:16:54 Neil Brown at Computer Science and Engineering at The University of New 21:16:54 South Wales, Sydney, Australia; and later at SUSE, still in Sydney, 21:16:54 Australia." 21:18:51 Wiggle when caled by "wiggle --replace file file.rej" annotates the file with the patch problem 21:45:38 --- join: tabemann (~tabemann@2600:1700:7990:24e0:5c1e:bfb1:dc7c:cc0) joined #forth 22:06:04 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 22:13:12 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 23:10:59 --- join: mtsd (~mtsd@94-137-100-130.customers.ownit.se) joined #forth 23:33:39 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: Lost terminal) 23:38:18 --- join: mtsd (~mtsd@94-137-100-130.customers.ownit.se) joined #forth 23:40:25 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 23:47:19 --- quit: mtsd (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.07.05