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01:45:56 <dave0> re
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06:48:12 <WilhelmVonWeiner> you know why I think Factor failed to take off
06:48:20 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Too much complexity
06:48:37 <WilhelmVonWeiner> even though the language is powerful and efficient and all that
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16:24:26 <dave0> hi
16:24:51 <tp> g'day dave0 
16:24:56 <dave0> hiya tp
16:25:06 <tp> whats new ?
16:26:00 <dave0> nuffing
16:26:02 <dave0> coffee! C4[_]~ C8[_]~ C3[_]~ C2[_]~
16:26:04 <dave0> you?
16:27:58 <tp> I'm currently making up a Word for Mecrisp-Stellaris that produces a intelhex dump of any Word so I can then use it in a PC based reverse engineering tool like 'cutter'
16:28:43 <tp> then I want to make up a small battery powered logger that logs data and timestamps to a SD card
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17:02:32 <Zarutian> tp: hmm.. you split that word into few other words yes? like an program memory intel hex dumper (I myself prefer motorola srec but meh) and a word that uses that on a word
17:03:57 <tp> Zarutian, I select a word from the dictionary give it to my ihex Word and it just dumps the ihex listing on screen
17:04:30 <tp> Zarutian, I prefer motorola everything personally
17:05:26 <tp> then gnuscreen will process that dumped ihex data into a word.ihex file on my pc ready to be analysed
17:07:14 <tp> all this is (believe it or not) to help debug my use of a assembler-mo.fs 'interactive assembly program) when Im designing some assembly for different USART usage on the target mcu
17:07:58 <tp> Ive never made so many development tools in my life, but then Forth enables and encourages it :)
17:12:20 * Zarutian comes across https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/words.html and is somewhat impressed at the level of documentation at this succinty
17:14:20 <tp> Zarutian, don't be too impressed that site is my notes as I learn Forth, so many examples are very poorly written etc. I try my best but Im a electronics tech
17:14:46 <Zarutian> tp: oh a fellow electronics tech! Nice to meetcha!
17:14:47 <tp> and as there is a very low readership, I dont get many corrections
17:14:52 <tp> oh!
17:14:54 <tp> awesome
17:15:47 <tp> yeah, I used to use C on PIC and it was ok but Forth blows that away, so I've switched to Forth on cortex-m0
17:15:48 <Zarutian> or at least that is what rafeindavirki translates to, roughly, in English
17:16:49 <tp> i thought 'rafeindavirki' meant 'caution Icelandic man frozen in the ice ahead' ...
17:18:14 <tp> ;)
17:18:15 <Zarutian> tp: well literally it is broken up into rafeinda-virki and would translate as electrons-activator
17:18:23 <tp> ahh
17:19:32 <tp> so you're 6 foot 4 high, wear  bearskins, carry a huge double headed axe, and live in the snow and ice ?
17:21:04 <Zarutian> lesse, I have run an tempermental and badly designed pick'n'place machine older than me. Done Windows XP to Windows 7 upgrades in a bank, debugged an OpenCAM controled factory-line component and other such fun stuff.
17:21:26 <tp> awesome
17:21:26 <Zarutian> and dont use feet for measuring distances
17:21:48 <tp> we may have spoken before long ago?
17:22:09 <Zarutian> might, you in Australia?
17:22:17 <tp> I soke to a Icelander that said I could have a job there in a remote place, but I'd need to speak Icelandic
17:22:20 <tp> yes
17:22:55 <tp> spoke I mean
17:22:58 <Zarutian> specialiced in setting up what was it Siemens small multipickup pick'n'place machine?
17:23:22 <tp> I cant recall, but I have set up, maintained, run and rebuild P&P machines
17:24:01 <tp> theyre one of my favorite machines, experince is with Yahama, Amistar and DynaPert
17:24:36 <Zarutian> can we agree that sterilized pig fat is the prefered lube for linear moving parts?
17:25:07 <Zarutian> only ever serviced and ran Optima from some Dutch company.
17:25:34 <tp> hahah, maybe in Iceland, but our machines were only lightly oiled and kept clean
17:26:36 <tp> they all are just accurate, powerful and fast NC machnes
17:26:40 <Zarutian> well, I suspect it was pig fat based lube but not sure but it smelled like bacon
17:26:58 <tp> I love servo motors, dont think much of steppers
17:27:18 <tp> maybe it was, I bet the local rats loved licking it off
17:27:24 <Zarutian> NC? Not familiar with that abrivation in this context (only Normally Closed comes to mind)
17:27:35 <tp> numerical control 
17:27:46 <Zarutian> rats? here in Iceland? maybe in the sewers.
17:28:01 <tp> or in my case 'normally clueless'
17:28:45 <Zarutian> so, not controled by a pc (Recommened 8 MibiBytes of RAM! the damn machine had two gigs because it was the smallest available)?
17:29:02 <tp> Zarutian, so is it your summer or winter and what is local time and the temperature outside ?
17:29:48 <tp> they are all controlled by some kind of computer
17:29:52 <Zarutian> northen hemisphere so summer. Local time is one hour after UTC but clocks are kept at UTC. Temps outside between 12-22° or so
17:30:19 <tp> that seems quite reasonable ?
17:30:21 <Zarutian> well I have associated numerically controled with paper tape fed mechanical computer
17:30:39 <tp> it's 10"30 am here, winter and 19C outside
17:30:44 <Zarutian> yeah but the sun has just barely gone below the horization
17:31:25 <Zarutian> (and those temps were in Celecious, sorry forgot to add the C)
17:31:36 <tp> the old Dynapert DIP placers I rebuilt did actually have paper tape, but I upgraded them to floppy drives instead
17:32:01 <Zarutian> oh, not an WinXP machine running a fast dos emulator then.
17:32:05 <tp> the Amistar never broke down, it had a Z8000 and ran CP/M
17:32:25 <tp> I dont know what the Yamaha ran
17:33:17 <tp> All I did with the yamaha was raise the output about 100x by relacing work out springs in the feeders and calibrating it
17:33:20 <Zarutian> DIP placer? Through hole pick and placer?
17:33:32 <tp> yes, IC's with legs
17:34:13 <Zarutian> I have used those in handbuilt projects but the machine I ran was just SMD but the smallest it could handle was 0402 sized components.
17:34:28 <tp> those machines were very heavy all cast iron etc
17:34:59 <tp> I think the Yamaha was similar, it was the smallest P&P I had experience on
17:35:35 <tp> but as theyre all mechanical, they need calibration and maintance to keep at their best performance
17:35:47 <Zarutian> I think the most time consuming and simplest hardware failure was when an dust bunny got into one of the holes of the optical encoder of the theta axis.
17:36:12 <tp> nasty, that would have been a pain to diagnose ?
17:36:35 <Zarutian> oh, man damn calibration. Always damn calibration.
17:36:55 <tp> the Dynaperts all had rusted linear bars from sitting in the shipyard terminal for years
17:36:58 <Zarutian> naah, just went through three platters until I noticed that the components were slightly off
17:37:28 <tp> so I had to pull them apart and replace the bars and linear bearings etc
17:38:05 <tp> were they too far off to reflow ?
17:38:09 <Zarutian> just paused before the next platter was loaded and went into manual-motor control
17:38:20 <tp> Im guessing you fixed it before it became a problem
17:38:34 <Zarutian> some where but the error was just too damn strange
17:38:44 <Zarutian> were*
17:38:56 <tp> the interesting thing about the Amistar was it had a 'rotary head' and could place 17500 components a hour
17:39:18 <tp> it was like a mini gattling gun
17:39:41 <Zarutian> but getting at the encoder meant fifteen minutes of taking the head apart
17:40:05 <tp> plus when a production machine breaks down, the pressure is really on hey ?
17:40:10 <tp> exactly
17:40:16 <tp> then recalibration
17:41:05 <Zarutian> then a minute opening the encoder, blowing out the holes with shop-air then another fifteen minutes assembling that and head together again
17:41:14 <tp> when a dynapert broke down once I had 80 production staff just sitting around all watching me fixing it and the directors asking me every 10 minutes ' when will it be fixed?'
17:41:43 <Zarutian> well the pressure wasnt that much. It was just me running the thing for twenty platters or so.
17:41:45 <Zarutian> small runs
17:41:57 <tp> cool
17:42:10 <tp> we had a factory that was always flat out
17:42:33 <Zarutian> I hope your answer every time when you got interrupted by a director "great you just delayed me fifteen minutes"
17:42:59 <tp> we made one really crappy product (inherented from a company we bought) that could only produce 1750 each day. Our customer wanted 5000 a day
17:43:22 <Zarutian> or recruited one of the production staff to intercept the director
17:43:49 <Zarutian> crappy product? The p&p machine or the product being made?
17:44:10 <tp> actually there was one director who was a real pain in the neck and was bugging me endlessly, I finaly told him "get the hell of my production floor, or fire me right now and I walk right now'
17:44:38 <tp> the Dynaperts were fabulous, it was this shitty product that was crappy
17:45:17 <Zarutian> right. hmm let me guess. No thoughts towards manifacturability in the design?
17:45:23 <tp> lol, the director spun on his heel and marched off the floor without a word while all the waiting production staff watched him
17:46:13 <tp> the problem was that it was a old design and CE approved, so I couldnt redesign any of it without having to submit for CE approval with all the costs and delays
17:46:40 * Zarutian is on the strong opinion that electronics technicianship must be a prerequisite for electronics engineers.
17:46:49 <tp> it was a small pcb that Philips in Singapore put in the handles of their clothes irons
17:47:20 <tp> Zarutian, it always used to be in australia. a EE out of uni could only get a techs job to start with
17:47:36 <Zarutian> that thing where the heat adjustment knob lived?
17:48:09 <tp> the pcb detected if the iron was moving (ironing clothes) or sitting on it's end, or burning a hole thru the garment
17:48:17 <tp> yeah, inside the handle
17:49:04 <Zarutian> tell me that it was at least in platters with v-grooves and tabs when p&p'ed
17:49:45 <tp> it used a Ti ASIC a few components and a mercury switch. That damn thing also needed a 'wire bonding machine' a 'die bonding machine', SMT and thru hole assembly, so IR reflow followed by wave soldering
17:50:06 <tp> yeah it was, but it was still just a horrible product
17:50:38 <tp> if you saw it, youd probably call in a airstrike on that factory
17:50:56 <tp> that one product required 80 production people to rework and test
17:51:04 <tp> ... worlds worst product
17:51:06 <Zarutian> die bonding? on a pcb? not one of those damn bare-dies that are the epoxy blobed?
17:51:17 <tp> yep, exactly
17:51:40 <tp> the main pcb had a slot that took the die 'carrier' board with the blob
17:51:54 <Zarutian> soics and such exists for a fucking reason, one of which is easier component assembly
17:51:55 <tp> I have one here somewhere, I should photograph it
17:52:40 <tp> yeah but this was a old and CE approved product, I could have redesigned it to me made 7000 a day If I had been given the go ahead
17:53:28 <Zarutian> running an p&p and reflow line by oneself with small runs had a perk, I got to see some EE's designs before he had actually ordered the manifacture of the pcbs
17:53:31 <tp> redesigning customer products was one of my duties there
17:54:40 <Zarutian> had to tell the poor thing about thermal mechanical warping load and that components that run host should not touch electrolyte caps
17:55:03 <tp> yeah, me to. customers would submit all their design to us and we would modify as needed. The usual problem was they would want 7000 immediately and some parts might not be available for 3 months so Id have to redesign the product for a part that we could get now
17:55:15 <tp> hahah
17:55:26 <tp> you have a nice reflow oven ?
17:55:46 <tp> ours was quite long, I could have baked perfect pizzas on it I rekon
17:55:47 <Zarutian> well, I do not work there anymore. (Downsizing and other factors)
17:56:22 <tp> oh, sorry to hear it unless what you do now is more fun
17:56:48 <Zarutian> it was a four unit one. Three heating units below and one above
17:57:12 <tp> I worked at the place I've described 1987 - 1989 when the auatralian stock market crashed :(
17:57:23 <Zarutian> controled by one of those embedded industrial computer with bitmapped display
17:57:32 <tp> sounds like ours
17:57:36 <Zarutian> the interface was in german
17:58:08 <Zarutian> I dont speak a word of it but I knew sufficiently enough and the text was clear enough
17:58:35 <tp> one client wanted to reflow his pcb while mounted in a big aluminium heatsinkand I said it wouldnt work but they insisted, and of course nothing reflowed
17:58:37 <Zarutian> like the p&p it was third hand
17:58:52 <Zarutian> hah!
17:58:53 <tp> those machines do get around!
17:59:17 <Zarutian> I have 'reflowed' such heatsinked pcbs
17:59:41 <Zarutian> just a wide flame from a blowtorch and viola!
17:59:43 <tp> so they asked if I could 'turn up the temperatures' which I did and completely delaminated the pcb, even then stuff wasnt reflowed
17:59:47 <tp> hahah
17:59:53 <Zarutian> (on the heatsking and not the pcb itself)
18:00:08 <tp> thats a good idea!
18:00:24 <tp> they left with their destroyes prototype looking a bit sad
18:01:22 <Zarutian> I have also localized reflowed pcbs with an industrial heatgun. (Hairdryer on steriods thermal output wise)
18:01:24 <tp> but their design had a heap of power semis bolted to the heatsink first, then the pcb was fitted, and then everything reflowed, a good idea except for the reflow part
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18:02:07 <tp> same here with the heatgun, just on some hand reflowed protos of mine
18:02:55 <tp> I'm making a tiny preheat plate atm, I just have to get a thermocouple and finish it
18:03:16 <Zarutian> one of the electronics technician master hand soldered something on a boat once. Using nothing but an old flathead screwdriver and a brazier
18:03:31 <Zarutian> masters I worked under*
18:03:38 <tp> techs have to be versatile!
18:04:10 <Zarutian> well, where do you think characters like Scotty in TOS were inspired from :D
18:04:31 <tp> I remember showing up at a factory top repair large motherboards with a lot of faulty ceramic ram chips ... with my chisel ... they were horrified
18:04:46 <tp> hahah, scotty was pretty funny
18:05:15 <Zarutian> why were they horrified?
18:05:21 <tp> the problem was no wirecutters could snip the pins off the suspect ram chips
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18:05:40 <tp> they had never seen a tech repair pcbs with a chisel before
18:06:09 <Zarutian> well, I would have used that small handheld angle grinder meself
18:06:21 <tp> Id use the small chisel to split the ceramic chip in the middle then bend the halds up and viola! room to cut the pins off
18:06:43 <Zarutian> but then again I am not often that patient
18:06:48 <tp> that would work too, but you dont want to be inhaling any of that stuff ?
18:07:06 <tp> the chisel was a one blow solution
18:07:07 <Zarutian> get a helper with a proper shop-vac
18:08:00 <tp> with multi layer boards the usual technique is to cut the pins then remove the pins with soldering iron and tweezers, then suck the solder out of the via
18:08:29 <Zarutian> most layers of a board I worked with was four layer boards
18:08:36 <tp> because trying to suck solder out when the pin is still in the hole usually leads to destroyed boards
18:08:42 <Zarutian> (VCC and GND planes in the middle)
18:08:53 <tp> same, 4 layers are very common
18:08:56 <tp> exactly
18:09:31 <tp> 4 layers is minimum design for low noise etc
18:10:00 <Zarutian> what I have been doing recently is hanging around the local fablab
18:10:39 <tp> it's hard enough to remove a pin from a vcc or 0v via by itself because the plane sucks all the heat out
18:11:02 <Zarutian> just to mix things up I been learning to use Autodesk Fusion 360 3d cad modeling software.
18:11:04 <tp> what do they do at the fablab ?
18:11:21 <Zarutian> not that hard to use for someone who learned the basics of droughtmansship
18:11:46 <tp> sounds like fun, but autocad and windows ? ... youk
18:11:48 <Zarutian> where in Australia did you say you where? Perth?
18:11:49 <tp> yuk!\
18:12:19 <tp> I used be in Perth when I was at the SMT factory, now I'm in NSW
18:12:31 <Zarutian> well, it was fine for my purposes, designing an box with a lock, made out of plywood
18:12:54 <tp> you could do that with Openscad and a small unix box ?
18:13:19 <tp> or even librecad
18:13:19 <Zarutian> well, the lock itself is also made out of plywood
18:13:30 <tp> nice!
18:14:14 <Zarutian> the box wasnt that hard to design apart from the lock and the hinges
18:15:00 <Zarutian> it is basically an disk detainer lock but with a comb instead of a sidebar
18:15:08 <tp> I like cad, I sometimes use it for visualisation, but my boxes are normally just made on the bench as I make them
18:16:26 <Zarutian> when the correct key inserted the disks are rotated so the comb is free to retract in the direction colinear with the key.
18:16:27 <tp> I've been planning for ages to make a XY table with a metal scriber or fast marking out on sheetmetal
18:16:46 <tp> wow, Ive never done any lock work
18:17:20 <tp> I need to make a lock for a small ammunition box Im making
18:18:06 <Zarutian> the end of the comb therefore retracts from an hole in a gear nearly at the front of the lock
18:18:19 <tp> the box will be in 2.2mm aluminium and have a magnetic back so it can stick to a metal pole at the local pistol club
18:18:47 <tp> so the main guts of the lock is on the outside of the box ?
18:19:13 <Zarutian> the axle of the gear is the inserted key and is used to retract two racks that keeps the nose of the box locked into the bottom part of the box
18:19:29 <Zarutian> no, the guts are inside the lock body of the box
18:20:07 <tp> there are so many kinds of locks, all fascinating to me
18:20:10 <Zarutian> this thing is purely an design exercise with single material restriction
18:20:30 <tp> gears in plywood ? made how ?
18:20:44 <Zarutian> but for ammunition or such I recommend Abloy Protec2 disc detainer
18:20:55 <Zarutian> with lazerz!
18:21:20 <tp> it's a special box, just for me to use, it only has to stop someone from hand opening it
18:21:24 <Zarutian> sorry forgot to mention it. Designing this to be cut in a lazer cutter available at the fablab
18:21:31 <tp> ahh LAZEZZZ!
18:22:07 <Zarutian> so, fablabs. They are a thing worldwide afaict.
18:22:16 <tp> if you have one nearby
18:22:23 <Zarutian> there is probably one 'nearby' to you
18:22:29 <tp> my closest would be 200 to 900 km away
18:22:50 <tp> I'm in a rural area
18:22:55 <Zarutian> a quick trip in a single prob plane, no?
18:23:03 <tp> definitely
18:23:26 * Zarutian assumes most rural Australians have such as other people around the globe have cars.
18:24:00 <tp> I once had a call from a guy wanted me to service some gear at a place 200km away and I said no, I wasnt interested because it was mid afternnon
18:24:41 <tp> he said he would be there in in a hour and I sais 'no way, how can you" he replied 'helicopter'
18:24:41 <Zarutian> wait? he wasnt willing to spurgle for a rocket taxi? the bastard
18:25:05 <tp> and sure enough about a hour later a helicopter comes roaring over my house
18:25:31 <Zarutian> oh, neat
18:25:52 <tp> he landed in the field nextdoor and I hopped in, we flew there, I looked ta the problem and we flew back
18:26:30 <tp> he was a interesting guy and over the neext few months he taught me the basics of flying that helicopter, a Robinson R22
18:26:42 <tp> most fun Ive ever had without dying
18:27:10 <tp> he would drop in and Id go and have flying lessons all day
18:27:54 <tp> I name it 'the roller coaster of the skies'
18:28:28 <tp> I had so many near death experiences in that thing it changed my outlook on life
18:29:00 <tp> of course youd get that normally in Iceland every time you're chased by a hungry polar bear ?
18:29:22 <Zarutian> do you know what the thing on helicopters are called where the blades attach?
18:29:39 <tp> the mast
18:29:50 <Zarutian> no, never ridden a helicopter.
18:30:02 <Zarutian> nope. It is called the Jesus nut.
18:30:13 <tp> some refer to the fastners at the top as 'the esus nuts'
18:30:18 <tp> some refer to the fastners at the top as 'the jesus nuts'
18:30:46 <tp> Zarutian, they are INSANE to fly, my favorite thing now
18:31:06 <Zarutian> and it is been years since a polar bear has been spotted or detected.
18:31:14 <tp> wow
18:31:22 <Zarutian> they are more common on Svalbard or Greenland
18:31:38 <tp> no one who gets to see one up close ever reports the occasion ? ;-)
18:33:03 <Zarutian> naah, they are pretty rare here
18:33:24 <tp> too warm by the sound of it
18:33:41 <tp> and being summer, is it light for most of the day now?
18:33:48 <Zarutian> the only native mammal here is the artic fox
18:33:59 <tp> oh
18:34:20 <Zarutian> most of the day? well, it is nearing two am here and it is light enough to read by
18:35:10 <tp> i find that amazing as our night and day are fairly even here
18:35:35 <tp> brb
18:37:33 <Zarutian> well, the country abutts the artic circle. I take that no part of australia abutts the antartic circle.
18:43:36 <Zarutian> tp, regarding mecrisp-stellaris, I have only ported and studied in detail eForth (used gforth a bit but not much): what does <builds do? I know <builds and does> is for making defining words
18:47:58 <Zarutian> for instance : constant <builds , does> @ ; is something I have seen
18:50:43 <Zarutian> or : value <builds , does> ToValue? @ IF ! FALSE ToValue? ! ELSE @ THEN ; : to TRUE ToValue? ! ; 
18:55:17 * Zarutian didnt know that GnuScreen worked with serial comms
19:03:24 <tp> bak
19:03:59 <tp> not only does  GnuScreen work with serial comms it does stuff that nothing else does
19:04:39 <Zarutian> and what is that?
19:04:52 <tp> ironically the gnuscreen alternative tmux has ZERO serial capability
19:05:10 <tp> there are a number of advantages
19:05:32 <tp> remote control of a serial screen
19:05:45 <tp> I use that extensively with Forth
19:05:57 <Zarutian> oh, just ssh-ing into that screen session, sure
19:06:31 <tp> no ssh is needed, I remote control locally into a local serial screen
19:06:43 <tp> theyre both on the same machine
19:06:45 <Zarutian> but does it only handle the usual usart serial protocols?
19:06:56 <tp> it took me years to come up with this system
19:07:27 <Zarutian> (the usual 8n1 9600 bps or 56Kbps kind)
19:07:35 <tp> there is nothing *usual* about gnuscreen
19:08:09 <tp> I use it at 460800 baud, 8,n,1 on all my Forth stuff, along with hardware handshaking
19:08:11 <Zarutian> what was that protocol that neopixels or what have you used called again.
19:08:39 <tp> i dont have any special protocols, and never used neopixels
19:09:01 <Zarutian> aah, yes self clocked dual symbol pulse width modulation
19:09:08 <tp> want a example of how I use gnuscreen with Forth ?
19:09:17 <Zarutian> sure
19:09:38 <tp> my screen connects to the Forth target as above, thats the first part
19:10:05 <Zarutian> via an 3V3 usb serial dongle I take it.
19:10:21 <tp> yes, 100% correct
19:10:37 <tp> then I edit my Forth code in a gui editor Gvim
19:10:57 * Zarutian is more of an pico or notepadqq user.
19:10:58 <tp> when I want to test the code, I click the 'make' button in the Gvim toolbar
19:11:11 <tp> sure, we all have our favorite editors
19:11:32 <tp> make runs and 1) strips all the comments from the source
19:12:11 <tp> 2) initiates a gnuscreen connection to the running gnuscreen terminal and uploads all the stripped Forth code
19:12:36 <tp> I see the code fly up the screen but it's too fast to read
19:13:04 <tp> this system is ***REALLY FAST***
19:13:27 <tp> I have slowness with a passion and could never have used a old slow traditional Forth
19:15:06 <tp> you can see a pic of my setup here https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/modern-forth-development-environment.html?highlight=development#a-modern-forth-ide
19:15:20 <tp> gnuscreen is in the bottom left window
19:16:05 <tp> I only ever enter code in gnuscreen by hand when I'm doing a quick test, because writing code in the editor and clicking make is *tons* faster
19:16:35 <tp> this way my source is saved, versioned and uploaded at high speed
19:17:27 <tp> I like to extensively comment my source but because all comments are stripped before they tell gnuscreen to upload, they make no difference to the speed of the process
19:18:52 <tp> sadly, you cant really do any of this stuff on forth without gnuscreen, nothing else comes close
19:19:00 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:19:12 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@173-133-17-89.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth
19:19:54 <Zarutian> damn chromium went into swapfest
19:20:03 <tp> i have a (poor, it was my first ever utube video) video showing the speed that forth code uploads
19:20:34 <tp> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDi-Nlz3-QA
19:22:15 <tp> then because the uploads were so fast that I couldnt see any errors, I had to make up two things: 1) a RTS handshake system so the on chip compiler could freexe the source upload at the error, 2) coloured errors so they would stand out as a blur of colour during the upload
19:22:16 <Zarutian> hmm.. how much ram do these STM32 usually have?
19:22:34 <tp> 8KB in the case of my favorite M0 chip
19:22:49 <tp> but you can get them with 40KB or tons more
19:23:18 <tp> all depends on the STM32 model and variant
19:24:05 <tp> I bought a nucleo-stml073 a few weeks ago, it has 192KB flash and 20KB ram
19:24:34 <Zarutian> I have never understood why manifacturers of mid-range mcus are always so stingy with their ram
19:25:34 <tp> I also bought some STM32L162RD a few weeks ago and they have 384KB Flash and 48KB ram
19:25:34 <Zarutian> havent found, yet, an mcu with psudeo-sram (which is basically dram with refresh circuitry built in)
19:25:49 <tp> they simply dont need it thats why
19:25:57 <tp> 8KB is TONS for me
19:26:25 <Zarutian> any experience with mram based mcus?
19:26:30 <tp> my first commercial product had 82 bytes of ram and I only used about 10 of that
19:26:34 <tp> none sorry
19:27:06 <Zarutian> been looking a bit into TI MSP430 mram based mcu.
19:27:40 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here)
19:27:46 <tp> ahh
19:28:06 <tp> so cvalled ferro ram ?
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19:28:15 <tp> fram
19:28:24 <Zarutian> the neat thing about magneto resistive ram (I think the m stands for magneto resistive) is that it has no rewrite limit nor requirement for page erasure
19:28:40 <Zarutian> fram or mram, dont recall which
19:28:45 <Zarutian> fram, yeah
19:29:00 <tp> the MSP430 is a great chip, slow and expensive plus laching tons of peripherals compared to stm32 cortex-m0
19:29:07 <tp> lacking
19:29:24 <tp> I have them here and have tested them, but not the fram types
19:29:29 <Zarutian> I got that impression too
19:29:47 <Zarutian> just from reading the datasheets though, not testing them.
19:29:59 <tp> the assembly language for the msp430 is as sweet as the old moorola 68k was
19:30:14 <tp> it's a fabulous chip the msp430
19:30:25 <tp> everything is very well integrated
19:30:44 <tp> i have a very special msp43 set up here
19:30:58 <tp> it's a 'tethered' msp430 Forth
19:31:22 <tp> I can write and test Forth code on a MSP430 that has *nothing* in it's flash
19:31:45 <tp> i can take a bran new one out of a tube, plug it in and run Forth on it straight away
19:32:19 <Zarutian> jtag interface or does it have decent enough in-circuit programming and debugging built in?
19:32:21 <tp> the msp430 may have only 2KB flash, but my terminal things it has 48KB flash :)
19:32:33 <tp> jtag, but it's fast and seamles
19:32:57 <tp> the host uses jtag to control the target msp430
19:33:02 <tabemann> hey guys
19:33:21 <tp> and get this, the host is a Ti Tiva Connected Launchpad
19:33:26 <tp> hey tabemann :)
19:34:33 <tp> the Tiva runs Mecrisp-Stellaris which cross-compiles MSP430 machine code loads it on the target via JTAG
19:35:12 <Zarutian> one thing I have gotten a bit wary about is committing to an mcu. Too damn many designs I have seen that gone out of production just because the original manifacturer EOL'ed a chip.
19:35:14 <tp> but from my gnuscreen terminal, I'd swear I'm connected directly to a MSP430 running mecrisp
19:36:06 <tp> Zarutian, Im pretty sure that ARM which licensed 82 billion chips last year wont be going anywhere soon
19:36:56 <Zarutian> it isnt ARM that I am worried about. It is their licensors OEMs
19:37:42 <tp> even STM's first arm chip the STM32F103 which was released in 2006 is still selling them
19:38:38 <tp> Zarutian, then you have nothing to worry about as there must be 500 different ARM based micros around across 20 vendors
19:38:39 <Zarutian> probably those will stay around for the next hundred years or so
19:39:06 <Zarutian> yeah only they are not pin compatible usually
19:39:20 <tp> unless Icelanders live inhumanly long lives, then 100 years should be long enuf for you ?
19:40:01 <tp> so change a few pins ?
19:40:07 <Zarutian> I have gotten into the long now foundation habit of having long time horizations for stuff I design
19:40:20 <tp> I'm the same
19:40:43 <tp> and I can still buy chips for every commercial design I did, starting with the 8085
19:40:52 <tp> in 1985!
19:41:17 <tp> it's only weird arse chips that never catch on that fade quickly
19:41:27 <tp> who uses a 'transputer' now ?
19:41:34 <tp> CDP1802 ?
19:41:38 <Zarutian> change them in setup or the pcb? sometimes a lot of pcbs get made in one go and sequestered in storage until assembly
19:41:47 <tp> rockwell F65F11 ?
19:41:59 <tp> longer than 20 years ?
19:43:08 <tp> the only things that have a real need to be sequestered in storage for decades are seeds in that massive seed vault built into a mountain out your way ?
19:43:18 <Zarutian> yes, longer than 20 years or the rearrangement causes explosion in rerouting over the entire board with lots more vias
19:44:00 <tp> hell in 20 years your cad files probably wont work (another reason to avoid proprietary cad at all costs)
19:44:04 <Zarutian> naah, it just happens that it was cheap for the company to buy a big lot than a small lot
19:44:15 <tp> which is very common
19:44:53 <Zarutian> yeah, cad files are something I usually export into well documented formats before archival
19:45:04 <tp> imagine someone found a warehouse full of original IBM PC's made in 1981, you wouldnt even be able to GIVE them away
19:45:25 <tp> theyre 4.77 Mhz, 64K ram, slow old crap
19:45:31 * Zarutian uses kicad for pcb layout work btw.
19:45:39 <tp> good idea
19:45:45 <tp> Im a gEDA man myself
19:45:48 <Zarutian> it was slow old crap back in the day
19:46:00 <Zarutian> well not old but still slow crap
19:46:00 <tp> it's way older, came out in the early 90's
19:46:40 <Zarutian> so, I had for one company to 'kosak' some of the pins and yellow wire them
19:48:09 <Zarutian> talking about grief caused by some chip designing companies
19:48:16 <Zarutian> does anyone remember ftdi?
19:48:26 <tp> gEDA/gschem schematic diagram example: https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/modern-forth-development-environment.html?highlight=development#forth-on-chip-compiler-hardware-handshaking
19:48:59 <tp> hell yeahg I still have about 10 ftdi 3.3/usb serial leads
19:49:04 <tp> they work fine
19:49:43 <Zarutian> had to fix quite an expensive machine that had an "ftdi" chip in it due to their driver.
19:50:37 <tp> http://pcb.geda-project.org/  <-- the pcb layout software I have used since the early 90's
19:50:51 <tp> ouch
19:50:55 <tp> yeah that whole 'driver' fiasco was a shame
19:50:58 <tp> idiots!
19:51:35 <Zarutian> replaced it with an fast avr running vusb supporting the actual usb serial standard driver
19:51:41 <tabemann> back
19:51:45 <tp> welcome back! 
19:52:12 <tp> Zarutian, nice
19:53:05 <Zarutian> and got the IT department of that company to install policy to permanently bar ftdi drivers from all their machines.
19:54:15 <Zarutian> They even got an test pc with an open source driver that treated 'fake' and 'real' ftdi chips alike by bricking them.
19:54:28 <tp> people get so upset with these little things ...
19:55:01 <tp> where was the outrage when microsoft designed DOS so it wouldnt run Lotus spreadsheets ?
19:55:27 <Zarutian> while that machine was out of comission and being repaired the company lost about 3% of its brutto revenou
19:56:03 <tp> yeah, that was adick move by ftdi, I hope they fired the idiot who thought of it
19:56:33 <Zarutian> well the outrage was shortlived when some cbbs'es distributed patched version of msdos
19:56:35 <tp> but usb is pretty much a commodity now, ftdi are a thing of the past
19:57:03 <Zarutian> one thing I know is that many electronics designers have perma black listed ftdi
19:57:23 <tp> youre right, everyone Ive met refuses to use them
19:57:36 * tabemann only recognizes "ftdi" in that he was told by someone here to avoid it like the plague
19:57:50 <Zarutian> havent checked but I think even digikey has put all their chips into 'not recommended for new designs' status
19:58:31 <tp> tabemann, ftdi is a usb/3.3 volt manufacturer who after being cloned by the chinese, made sure that their updates would brick any clones
19:58:54 <tabemann> ah
19:59:10 <Zarutian> then some good open source programmer released a driver that also bricked non-clones
19:59:12 <tp> tabemann, fact is, people with gear that was bricked, were using illegal cloned chips, not to their knowledge of course
19:59:30 <tabemann> not surprising
19:59:30 <tp> Zarutian, why ??
19:59:49 <tp> Zarutian, if thats true, it's a criminal act
20:00:29 <Zarutian> nope, it was documented because the patch orignated from ftdi and was only first meant to brick 'clones'.
20:01:01 <tp> tabemann, the cloned chips worked in a similar fashion to the original but but wasnt 100% compatible
20:01:30 <tabemann> I meant it's not surprising that it bricked unsuspecting users' gear
20:01:42 <Zarutian> the clones followed the published datasheet to the letter. Ftdi 'reals' did not.
20:01:43 <tp> Im glad I didnt have any fdti shares!
20:02:41 <tp> Zarutian, what does that mean ? what are the implications ?
20:03:28 <tp> tabemann, yeah it was a dick move by some idiot at FTDI and they were fined millions for doing it
20:03:45 <Zarutian> the implication was that one could not trust material from ftdi regarding how their chips behaved
20:04:35 <tp> deliberatly false ?
20:05:09 <Zarutian> one story I heard that an ftdi employees car was adversaly repossed to pay for repairs of quite an expensive machine their driver bricked.
20:05:43 <tabemann> that'd have to be a company car I presume
20:06:01 <tp> perhaps FTDI are so sensitive about their super special "IP' that they deliberately fudged the specs of their chips ?
20:06:19 <Zarutian> who knows if the maximum electrical ratings they specify are real or not.
20:06:29 <tp> but FTDI are bu no means the only people who do that stuff
20:06:59 <tp> take Ubiquiti, the worlds leading manufactirer of wifi and networking gear
20:07:31 <tp> I supplied Ubiquiti gear for about 5 years
20:07:57 <tp> they universally use OpenWRT in all their gear
20:08:14 <tp> it's heavily modified, but it's open source based
20:08:54 <tp> around 2017 a lot of Ubiquiti clones started appearing on the market, made in china naturally
20:09:10 <Zarutian> fair enough, so long the modified source code is available.
20:09:22 <tp> after that if you had a clone and went to update the FW, the device was bricked
20:09:32 <Zarutian> everything is made in china
20:09:36 <tp> so true
20:10:03 <Zarutian> so, did Ubiquiti offer to replace bricked gear at no expense?
20:10:15 <tp> well Ubiquiti make all users sign a Ubiquiti licence before their device will even function
20:10:46 <tp> lol, no, they said that the gear was bricked because it was 'incompatible' or some bs
20:10:47 <Zarutian> sign? as in click through eula?
20:11:02 <tp> ity was obvious that they pulled a FTDI
20:11:05 <tp> yep
20:11:15 <Zarutian> that does not work here.
20:11:21 <tp> it's the first thing you see when a new unit is powered up ready to configure
20:11:38 <tabemann> EULAs are not guaranteed to be enforceable in all jurisdictions
20:11:45 <Zarutian> an actual 'meeting of minds' is required and such an agreement would be deemed 'unconciousable' or some such.
20:11:59 <tp> sure, I agree, but all their devices have it
20:13:32 <tp> since the FTDI fiasco I think UBNT nust have a big silver "FAKE" come up on the device login screen now and the user cant access it
20:13:32 <Zarutian> and how are they going to argue it when all their assets are being adversarly reposessed?
20:14:13 <tp> I dunno, theyre worth billions so I guess they ahve lots of lawers ?
20:15:02 <tp> Ubiquiti is owned by a ex apple enginner in the USA
20:15:20 <Zarutian> you dont seem to understand what adversial repossesion is then
20:15:52 <tp> I've no idea
20:15:56 <tp> I'm not a lawyer
20:17:23 <tp> Mecrisp-Stellaris RA 2.4.9 with M0 core for STM32F051 by Matthias Koch
20:17:23 <tp> free (bytes) 
20:17:23 <tp> FLASH.. TOTAL REPORTED: 65536 USED: 54680 FREE: 10856 
20:17:23 <tp> RAM.... TOTAL PRESET: 8192 USED: 1172 FREE: 7020
20:17:53 <Zarutian> it is when an party has no patient for slow 'civil' courts or such and hires repossesors. The kind that go into active warzones to take back an airplane or yacth.
20:18:28 <tp> good luck doing that in California ?
20:21:40 <Zarutian> but usually, like in the case of Ubiquiti where most if not all of thier hardware is being manifactured in china, some greased palms can make their or their manifacturers license to export disapear.
20:22:29 <tp> sure
20:22:47 <tp> $$ rules
20:23:43 <tp> then everyome would need to but belkin or delink crap which use OSS but they just dont admit it
20:23:50 <tp> but = buy
20:24:04 <tp> or pay 10x for Cisco which performs no better
20:24:45 <Zarutian> well, tp link is pretty good and they even have a guide on how to reflash the thing with completely open source version of the firmware
20:25:03 <tp> nah, it's pretty crap
20:25:20 <Zarutian> but damn does the casing on it make it look like a plasticed slug
20:25:26 <tp> Ive sold tons of Ubiquiti gear that was to replace tp-link
20:25:38 <tp> yeah, cheap and nasty
20:26:15 <tp> fact is that every wifi device must have a binary blob by law
20:26:32 <Zarutian> where did you hear that myth?
20:26:34 <tp> because governments control radio spectrums with a iron fist
20:26:39 <tp> it's no myth
20:27:05 <tp> do you have radio band laws in Iceland ?
20:27:40 <tp> can you take a SDR and start transmitting on Icelandic military frequencies and not expect to wind up in prison ?
20:27:50 <Zarutian> yes and requirements that radios are made hardware-wise to be limited to the bands they are allowed to be operated in
20:28:21 <tp> theyre not made to conform by hardware, it's all software
20:28:25 <Zarutian> note, Iceland doesnt have military and the local ham radio association will literally come after you with an axe
20:29:02 <tp> and mfrs make the chips to cover a wide band to increase their utility, the vendor configures it to conform to local radio laws
20:29:08 <tp> hahah
20:29:23 <tp> really, who fights your wars ?
20:29:29 <tp> plar bears ?
20:29:32 <tp> polar
20:29:59 <Zarutian> I know the part about frequency band and power levels part of the communications laws here.
20:30:23 <tp> sure, and every country has them
20:30:51 <tp> hence the chip suppliers actually supply special code to the mfr so as to be able to configure the chip
20:30:55 <Zarutian> and those parts explictly state that hardware must be made so that it conforms and no software or easily flashable firmware is allowed to uphold it.
20:31:05 <tp> exactly
20:31:21 <tp> which is why they have a binary blob
20:32:00 <tp> and why the radio mfr has no choice about the binary blob
20:32:01 <Zarutian> well, in this case an actual mask rom chip soldered into the device.
20:32:09 <tp> nope, not here
20:32:19 <tp> it's all flash configured. same in the USA
20:33:32 <tp> in the case of Ubiquiti gear, when you power it up, it asks you 'what country' and if I ticked USA instead of AU, I'd be breaking our Australian laws when I turned it on
20:34:03 <tp> as the device is software configured to the country the user selects
20:34:37 <tp> now this is WIFI, you may well be right re other radio gear and ROMS
20:34:49 <Zarutian> a bit of a story. At a local hackerspace here we went an reflashed an wifi router here. As in took the actual firmware flashchip and wrote to it directly. Then read it back as the cpu in would have.
20:34:55 <tp> I dont do any non wifi work so I've no idea
20:35:13 <tp> hmm I think a F35 just flew near here
20:35:44 <tp> they make a very low and powerful sound unlike any other planes we have here. I can hear them, but never see them
20:36:01 <Zarutian> the part of the address space where the parameters for vdr and such were kept were unchainged.
20:36:16 <tp> they may be 'stealth' but that doesnt apply to their sound
20:36:17 <Zarutian> and btw Iceland does not fight or go into wars
20:36:42 <tp> why not, does no one want to take over Iceland ?
20:36:51 <tp> is it too cold ?
20:37:01 <tp> no oil ?
20:37:06 <Zarutian> well the weather is usually what does them in
20:37:19 <tp> hehe, sounds like a advantage
20:37:38 <tp> my temperature range is about 0 - 48 C here
20:38:02 <Zarutian> well that is the official explanation. Nothing about their blood freezing before the rest of their bodies.
20:38:25 <tp> from breathing  cold air ?
20:38:42 <tp> has anyone tried to invade Iceland ?
20:38:54 <tp> vikings ?
20:39:31 <tp> abominable snowmen ?
20:39:42 <tp> russians ?
20:39:46 <Zarutian> vikings are those who settled Iceland. Why do you think Greenland was named such? To divert the wannabes into frozen hell.
20:40:01 <tp> hahah, nasty!
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20:40:15 <Zarutian> oh, I lie. Iceland fought one war, the cod war.
20:40:47 <tp> well vikings werent exactly known for their pacifism ?
20:41:12 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@85.26.233.163) joined #forth
20:43:33 <Zarutian> who said anything about pacifism? ,-)
20:44:18 <tp> hahah, no one invades because everyone is terrified of vikings!
20:44:22 --- quit: gravicappa (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:46:23 <Zarutian> more like terrified of why it seems that any invaders, well excluding those allowed in due to the economic benefit they bring, seem to get unlucky with weather and die of cold and wetness (hypothermia)
20:47:27 <Zarutian> regarding the cod war, one technique used against british trawlers was the 'clippers'
20:47:48 <tp> clippers ?
20:48:07 <tp> thats a name for fast sailing ships of old
20:48:37 <tp> my grandfather sailed Clippers
20:48:41 <Zarutian> having to go back to home harbour to replace lost and damaged nets while not being able to fish is quite economically devastating
20:49:02 <tp> ahh, how were the clipper deployed ?
20:49:05 <Zarutian> no, I mean kind of device that cut trawlers nets
20:49:07 <tp> manually ?
20:49:34 <Zarutian> think of an anchor but with serrated back pointing blades
20:49:52 <tp> i know! fitted to the front of Viking Longships ?
20:50:26 <Zarutian> now it gets dragged behind the coast guard ship on a long wire.
20:51:05 <tp> how are the fish stocks in your ocean(s) ?
20:51:42 <Zarutian> if the ships pilot is skillfull enough then he can swing the ship about so the clipper snags on the trawlers net and either clips it apart or clips the tow wires
20:51:48 <Zarutian> sustainable
20:53:23 <Zarutian> but now I must be off, cya
20:53:39 <tp> thanks for the chat!
20:53:40 <tp> cya
21:18:28 <ttmrichter> Who did I promise video of how logistics SHOULD work?
21:19:35 <tp> ttmrichter, no one that I know. You did describe it well to
21:19:43 <tp> to = tho
21:20:03 <ttmrichter> I said that I had a bunch of orders coming and that I'd do a screen capture of the app in action, though.
21:21:02 <tp> well youd better link it then ? :)
21:21:15 <ttmrichter> First I have to find a place to upload it to.  :-/
21:21:39 <tp> not so easy thesedays unless one has a paid cloud server ?
21:21:51 <tp> I cancelled mine a few months back
21:21:53 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection)
21:22:25 <ttmrichter> Yeah, tell me about it.  It's been a frustration for ages now.  All the video upload sites are either VERY heavyweight or just don't work.
21:24:06 <tp> I found I can use sourceforge providing my content is open :)
21:24:21 <tp> so I moved my documentation sites there
21:26:15 <tp> I mean you could do souceforge open 'critique of programming languages' and host it there ?
21:26:30 <tp> their site is fast, uploading is fast
21:27:24 <tp> and you can host files and have a http site, I use py.sphinx in the projects http upload area
21:27:35 <tp> I just rsync it to sourceforge
21:28:14 <tp> oh and did I mention it's free ?
21:32:48 <tabemann> back
21:33:00 <tp> welcome back! 
21:33:45 * tabemann has a sourceforge account, but he has long forgotten the password for not only it but the email account to which it is linked
21:34:10 <tabemann> I do everything these days on github, even though it is owned by the evil Micro$oft now
21:36:50 <tp> ttmrichter, and I share a unbridled loathing of github, both before and after the Microsoft takeover
21:37:35 <tp> ttmrichter, and I also share a love of Fossil SCM
21:50:41 <ttmrichter> I just hate Git.  Not Github especially beyond that.
21:51:14 <ttmrichter> When I opened up a dictionary of technical terms and looked up "leaky abstraction" it said "see Git".  When I looked up "technical debt" it said "see Git".
21:51:29 <ttmrichter> When I looked up "cargo cult thinking" it said "see Git".
21:51:42 <tp> apart from their Linguist app ?
21:55:57 <remexre> git is the best scm I'm allowed to use at $DAYJOB :P
21:56:22 <remexre> other options include SVN and NFS+a script that backs up the cwd
21:56:31 <tp> eww
21:56:52 <remexre> the last one is niceish for e.g. logs
21:57:17 <tp> a microsoft shop ?
21:57:37 <remexre> no lol
21:57:48 <tp> oops sorry I read NFS as NTFS
21:59:17 <tp> well everyone is GIT mad thesedays, kids versioning their 200 byte Arduino stepper motor driver do it on GIT
22:00:14 <tp> Linus uses it so it must be the best they no doubt assume
22:00:36 <remexre> eh, we teach it in schools
22:00:57 <tp> copying apple and microsoft ? ;-)
22:01:09 <remexre> er, I mean rather
22:01:29 <remexre> it's well-adopted enough that of the SCMs, the one that gets taught is Git
22:01:47 <tp> and fair enough, it has the lions share
22:01:59 <tp> anyway, I'm not qualified to debate either
22:02:15 <remexre> I'm in the Pijul camp myself, though I'm not well-versed enough in category theory to actually understand their papers
22:02:23 <remexre> but the properties they claim certainly seem nice
22:03:02 <remexre> (notably, I still /use/ Git for everything, since "okay first install pijul and set up your keys on pijul nest" is a non-starter to try to get people to try smth I wrote)
22:04:25 <tp> pijul is in my FreeBSD repo so it must be ok :)
22:06:26 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@14.207.199.230) joined #forth
22:06:27 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy
22:06:55 <tp> patches are big deals in SCM's to me, and Fossil generates all my patches, so Im happy there
22:07:54 <remexre> patch in the sense of being able to send state diffs /as text/, or in the sense of being able to easily modify upstream?
22:09:28 <remexre> my biggest git/github gripe (after internalizing git's model) is the latter; imo it should be easier to have a fork that's always "my patches plus the latest commit of upstream to which they cleanly apply"
22:09:48 <tp> um, I lack the proper terminology (im a electronics tech) but I can modify several files in project and later apply them to the newer version with useful feedback from Fossil regarding problems
22:10:09 <remexre> I kinda want to build a federated scm hosting site with stuff like that, built in CI built on docker, easy scripting, etc
22:10:18 <remexre> yeah, that's the latter sense I meant, I think
22:10:38 <tp> upstream is the newer version of the version you modified ?
22:10:48 <remexre> uh, upstream is what you modified
22:11:21 <tp> I only modify another persons code so far and I'm the only one that uses the modified version
22:11:26 <remexre> e.g. xorg's copy of x11 is upstream relative to my distro, my distro is upstream relative to me
22:11:40 <tp> but then I need to apply my patches to his next release
22:16:02 <tp> thanks for the input, this is a area I need to study at length
22:17:43 <remexre> np, I'm free of largely-unsolicited opinions :P
22:18:47 <tp> id never paid attention to the word 'upstream" before because I'm a hardware guy, it really didnt register
22:28:08 <ttmrichter> Upstream is the raw signal.  Downstream is the user of the signal after you've processed it.
22:28:19 <ttmrichter> (To convert sorta into hardware terms.)
22:28:56 <ttmrichter> So upstream is your sine wave signal generator.  You are the filter that gives it some timbre.  Downstream is the speaker.  :D
22:29:34 <tp> thanks ttmrichter I was floundering with the WIKI descriptions
22:30:31 <ttmrichter> The match is imperfect, of course, because the filter can't send stuff to the sine wave generator to change its signal for all of eternity.
22:31:07 <tp> I hope not, thats the way Ive blown up two of my siggens :(
22:31:27 <tp> well sending a signal into the signal generator actually
23:11:26 <ttmrichter> Oh well, I had to go with the Other Evil Empire<tm>: https://youtu.be/9M88Jl19Eeo
23:14:46 <tp> geepers that must have been painful to make ?
23:15:04 <tp> no bottles of wine with a deadly Hornet in them ?
23:24:32 <ttmrichter> The video?
23:24:37 <ttmrichter> Just screen capture on my phone.
23:24:52 <ttmrichter> Followed by me basically just doing what I usually do with the app, only slightly modified.
23:25:06 <ttmrichter> (Simplified -- I often check other stuff out in between.)
23:27:33 <ttmrichter> And no, no wine at all this time.  :(
23:45:33 <tp> ttmrichter, this my be the first video of it's type on utube ?
23:48:55 <ttmrichter> Possibly.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.07.01