00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.06.23
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03:44:35 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Just saw a post on r/Forth
03:44:50 <WilhelmVonWeiner> someone named a Forth-like elisp macro "eForth"
03:45:10 <WilhelmVonWeiner> ...
04:01:45 <tp> oops! naming is a problem thesedays, try getting a useful domain under 25 letters ?
04:02:19 <tp> there are still a few 4 letter domains around but no one seems to want them ;-)
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04:07:59 <sarna> hey, I want to write a pretty trivial program and I've noticed R@ behaves strangely sometimes
04:08:37 <sarna> I mean, sometimes it gives me a really big number instead of the thing I want
04:09:48 <sarna> my word is defined like this: : ** ( base exponent -- base**exponent ) OVER >R 0 DO R@ * LOOP R> DROP ;
04:09:49 <tp> I'm only a Forth beginner but perhaps you're copying the wrong number on the return stack ?
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04:10:57 <sarna> it seems like once I enter the loop, the return stack forgets what is on it
04:11:15 <dave0> maybe DO pushes something on the return stack?
04:12:36 <sarna> >  Anything already on the return stack becomes unavailable until the loop-control parameters are discarded. 
04:12:37 <sarna> ohhh
04:12:52 <sarna> that's a bummer :^(
04:13:22 <tp> Data put on the return stack outside a ?DO (DO) … LOOP (+LOOP) cannot be accessed within the loop.
04:13:39 <sarna> why is it so?
04:13:46 <tp> Data put on the return stack within a ?DO (DO) … LOOP (+LOOP) must be taken back before leaving the loop.
04:14:21 <tp> because the return stack is where the do Loop stores it's looping stuff
04:14:49 <sarna> oh, I see
04:15:03 <tp> thats the purpose of the return stack
04:15:20 <sarna> it seems a lot less cool than before
04:15:36 <tp> youd probably want to use variables in this case as repellent as that may seem ?
04:16:25 <tp> I think it's pretty cool, Ive done some awesome things with the return stack
04:16:25 <sarna> well, I can implement this word using only the regular stack
04:16:31 <dave0> i wrote something in forth!
04:16:37 <sarna> nice!
04:16:43 <dave0> : **   1 swap 0 DO over * LOOP nip ;
04:16:56 <tp> dave0, in *your* DOS Forth you mean ?
04:17:11 <dave0> oh no my forth's don't work :-)
04:17:17 <tp> yet ?
04:17:31 <dave0> nope
04:17:44 <tp> I'm sure they will in time :)
04:17:45 <dave0> i'm terribly lazy and procrastinate
04:18:01 <tp> some people say I procrastinate ....
04:18:45 <tp> ... and do you ?  ... I'll let you know later
04:19:50 <dave0> it takes a long time for me to write forth code, i'm a beginner
04:19:58 <dave0> takes me a long time
04:20:10 <sarna> your ** code works though :^)
04:20:28 <dave0> i had to write it 5 times lol
04:20:42 <tp> Im fairly fast now, and I have overcome some of the typical beginner techniques
04:21:04 <tp> dave0, *everyone has to write it *5 times* !
04:21:07 <sarna> my version didn't even work and I spent entire yesterday thinking about it :D
04:21:24 <tp> we are all beginners and Forth takes time
04:21:41 <tp> I've been learning Forth since 2014 and I've put a LOT of time into it
04:22:04 <sarna> forth is horribly unreadable for me, at least now
04:22:18 <tp> but at some point it clicked for me, now my old languages look uglier and uglier everytime I see than
04:22:54 <sarna> what are your old languages? I'm curious
04:22:56 <tp> sarna, thats common also, and some Forth is very ugly to a beginner, indecipherable even
04:23:03 <tp> only C and Perl
04:23:13 <dave0> i write c
04:23:22 <tp> I can barely stand to look at C now
04:23:45 <dave0> i think in c which is very different to Forth
04:23:55 <tp> I used to use C in embedded, I made one commercial product with it and it was fine, very simple tho
04:24:11 <tp> yes, they are utterly different
04:24:23 <dave0> c has warped my mind.. i have to unlearn lots of stuff
04:24:51 <tp> C is ok, but I now feel that it's not well suited to embedded, but excellent for PC type apps
04:25:04 <tp> hahah, Id say that about BASIC
04:25:16 <tp> I had to unlearn BASIC before I could learn C
04:25:26 <sarna> tp: nice, I came to forth searching for an alternative to C
04:25:32 <tp> but going from C to Forth has been a sweet pleasure for me
04:26:02 <tp> sarna, whats your main use, embedded on small systems or PC's ?
04:26:49 <sarna> tp: it's for hobby projects (I write C# at work), so mostly PC and sometimes embedded stuff
04:26:57 <tp> dave0, Ive had to confront C lots of times because of Forth
04:27:40 <tp> sarna I like C pn PC's tho Im learning LISP and hope to transition from Perl to LISP oneday on PC's
04:27:57 <dave0> i love assembly.. but i did not realize assembly is tailored for popular languages like c and c++ so i found that mindset in C
04:28:17 <sarna> tp: I don't like the omnipresent UB in C :)
04:28:33 <tp> dave0, because Forth is used so little thesedays on cortexM Ive had to read countless useless C code for hints on setting up certain peripherals
04:28:55 <dave0> ah
04:29:14 <dave0> i've read that Forth is real nice for bringing up hardware
04:29:18 <tp> dave0, really ? after 5 years of Forth Id sat that Forth and assembly are like twins ?
04:29:58 <tp> sarna, heheh, well with Forth youll get tons of what you *think* is UB until you know what youre doing :)
04:30:25 <tp> dave0, absolutely, Forth is imho the *only* choise for bringing up hardware
04:30:47 <dave0> tp: the idea of variables indexed in a stack frame is very C
04:31:01 <sarna> tp: getting garbage values /= UB though :D
04:31:25 <tp> dave0, I made up a parser that takes a cortexM cmsis-svd file and generates pretty print Words for every hardware register 
04:32:11 <tp> dave0, but C always looks like C, but Forth looks like whatever you design it to look like
04:32:33 <dave0> yep extensible
04:32:40 <dave0> c will always lack that
04:32:53 <dave0> and i love how Forth is interactive
04:33:32 <tp> all other languages lack the 'reprogramability' of Forth, and language is so important to understanding a problem
04:34:04 <tp> sarna, Im not sure Forth is gigo proof ;-)
04:34:31 <tp> i do a lot of 'flowcharting' thesedays with Forth 
04:34:54 <sarna> tp: no language is :)
04:35:01 <tp> I used to do a lot of flowcharting with machine code, then assembly, but never did it with C for some reason
04:35:11 <tp> sarna, so true :)
04:36:03 <sarna> only C/++ get a license to kill when you deref a null pointer though :^)
04:36:43 <dave0> i find lots of little annoyances with c and also unix
04:37:10 <tp> here is a example of my recent flowcharting tests, as I'm still working on a format that is best for me https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/project.3temp.sensors.html#software-flowchart
04:37:14 <dave0> but i use them on my computers :-/
04:37:47 <tp> dave0, all programming languages suck, but some suck a bit less ?
04:38:00 <dave0> ehehe i suppose :-)
04:39:23 <tp> dave0, I think everyone uses Forth because of it's interactivity, same with LISP
04:39:43 <tp> it's awesome having instant feedback, especially with hardware
04:40:19 <dave0> i don't know python, but is it interactive too?
04:40:51 <tp> take cortex-M for instance, it's incredibly complex and the data books sometimes dont seen clear and thats where it's fabulous to use Forth and actually test to find out
04:41:02 <dave0> the only other interactive language i've used is basic in the 80's microcomputers
04:41:08 <tp> yeah, apparently tho Ive never used python
04:41:24 <tp> eww, basick has been proven to rot a persons mind!
04:41:32 <dave0> ehehe
04:41:42 <tp> a intel 8051 with dartmouth basic ?
04:41:44 <dave0> it had line numbers!
04:42:01 <tp> yeah, that was my first HLL, and it rotted my mind
04:42:17 <dave0> c has done that to my mind
04:42:20 <tp> Id only used machine code and assembly before that
04:42:58 <dave0> i used basic first then a little bit of assembly... i was too young to really get it
04:43:08 <tp> dave0, I find the more Forth i write, the better my C and Perl code gets
04:43:30 <dave0> hmm yeah
04:43:31 <tp> Forth seems to be helping my programming skills a lot, such as they are
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04:43:40 <dave0> i write smaller functions in c than i used to
04:43:51 <tp> I'm a hardware guy, a electronics tech, I'm not a programmer by profession
04:43:57 <dave0> ah
04:44:29 <tp> I'm a two finger typist, proper programmers look away in embarrassment
04:44:36 <dave0> lol
04:44:42 <tp> but I'm a awesome tech
04:45:26 <tp> luckily Forth is a gret fit for my mind nowadays
04:45:42 <tp> being so low and high level at the same time
04:46:50 <tp> I still have a new original 8051 with basic in my parts draws, I should advertise it for $1000 on eBay ;-)
04:47:19 <tp> someone may wish to rot their brains with it
04:48:44 <dave0> there's an 8051 forth camelforth
04:49:06 <tp> yeah, camelforth seems pretty good
04:49:26 <tp> this 8051 has it in ROM, it cant be reflashed
04:49:36 <tp> it's from the 80's :)
04:50:04 <dave0> wow!
04:50:36 <dave0> i shouldn't have given away my first computer :-(
04:50:41 <dave0> heh
04:50:44 <tp> besides, I have hundreds of stm32f051's that are like a F22 compare to that 8051 sopwith camel and they all run mecrisp-stellaris Forth
04:51:27 <tp> i probably paid $60 for that Intel 8051 back in the day
04:51:36 <tp> that stuff was expensive
04:51:47 <dave0> and that's in 80's money
04:52:05 <tp> and in comparison to todays mcu's, slow and braindead
04:52:11 <tp> yeah
04:52:32 <tp> in 1975 we paid $270 for a single 16 bit National Pace CPU
04:52:48 <tp> no peripherals and ran at about 1Mhz
04:53:12 <tp> these are the 'golden days' of embedded
04:54:58 <dave0> damn mobile phones
04:55:26 <dave0> and social media
04:55:30 <tp> amen
04:55:53 <tp> tho I keep a low profile on social media, I'm too old to be interested in it
04:56:22 <tp> irc and some forums are about as social as I get
04:56:58 <dave0> my 80 year old neighbor, who can't set her clock on the microwave, is on facebook lol
04:57:10 <tp> haahh
04:57:11 <dave0> on her phone
04:57:45 <tp> yeah, I've 15 years until I'm 80 yet, gahhh
04:58:08 <tp> i cant set the clock on my microwave either, but I can program in Forth
04:58:14 <dave0> lol
04:58:24 <tp> i hope that one cancels out the other
04:58:27 <dave0> oh you're alright
04:58:34 <dave0> my dad's age
04:58:45 <tp> white goods arent made for minds like mine
04:59:31 <tp> i can fix a microwave, hand draw the complete schematic, just dont ask me to set the damn clock
05:00:00 <dave0> wow
05:00:15 <tp> 50 years of being a technician ...
05:00:22 <tp> it's no big deal
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06:10:27 <markweston> echo 42 EMIT > forth.fs
06:10:46 <markweston> gforth --evaluate forth.fs
06:10:56 <markweston> *OS command line*:-1: Undefined word
06:11:00 <markweston> what the heck
06:12:33 <markweston> how do I make a FORTH script that prints an asterisk and run it?
06:12:59 <dave0> --evaluate takes a string
06:13:05 <dave0> gforth --evaluate '42 emit'
06:13:47 <tp> gforth --evaluate < forth.fs  ?
06:14:23 <tp> I've never used gforth
06:14:28 <dave0> just   gforth forth.fs   should work
06:14:33 <markweston> that prints a lot of other garbage besides the asterisk
06:15:14 <dave0> echo "42 emit bye" > forth.fs
06:15:20 <dave0> gforth forth.fs
06:15:33 <tp> gforth < forth.fs ?
06:15:36 <markweston> gforth forth.fs -e bye
06:15:37 <markweston> was it
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06:23:30 <john_cephalopoda> malyn: "gforth forth.fs" will do the trick.
06:24:02 <john_cephalopoda> Uuuh, sorry wrong tab completition
06:24:31 <tp> no way! that's far too simple to ever work ;-)
06:25:20 <john_cephalopoda> That and an added bye in the script. Welp.
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09:22:07 <MrMobius> re 8051, Dallas makes one that is single cycle
09:22:16 <MrMobius> compared to 12 cycles/insruction back in the day
09:50:14 <MrMobius> still not an F22 though :)
09:54:47 <tabemann> back
09:58:28 <tabemann> now that I can trap segfaults, I want to make things crash
09:59:05 <tabemann> I've been entering 0 @ , 0 0 ! , and 0 >r exit for the hell of it
10:18:45 <tabemann> the only thing is I don't think it'll probably recover from (data or return) stack overflow or underflow
10:19:27 <tabemann> or from corruption of the compiled code
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15:20:07 <tabemann> hey
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