00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.06.17 00:19:41 --- join: sigjuice (~sigjuice@2604:a880:1:20::83:6001) joined #forth 00:37:49 --- join: the_cuckoo (~charlie@d51A50AE9.access.telenet.be) joined #forth 01:05:38 Yep. We tried one of those in an experiment. We may use it in future ... but only AFTER we've field-tested with more conventional packaging and are absolutely positive everything is bulletproof. 01:07:07 ttmrichter, from my days doing commercial SMT assembly I think the WLCSP64 would need careful quality control so you didnt get them all back in a year for warranty 01:07:45 which is probably why Arrow.com have about 700,000 of them at $1.00 each in stock 01:08:39 nevertheless, it's the smallest usable package possible with 64 connections I think 01:09:06 It is, yes. 01:09:23 The general plan is to field-trial the HELL out of our software and other hardware. 01:09:35 Then make bespoke modules with those raw silicon parts at the core. 01:09:46 the only other way Id recommend using them is dead bug onto a product pcb and wire bonded, but youd need a wire bonder for that 01:09:49 Filled with 12-hour cure epoxy. 01:10:10 So in essence making our own larger package that happens to include an MCU core. 01:10:17 and the wire bonders are slow, like a sewing machine ;-) 01:10:49 yeah, and a blob of the special epoxy they use for ASICS after wire bonding 01:11:00 we did all that in our factory 01:11:57 we even bought the dies in wafer form and had a die bonder that would remove the pre-tested dies from the wafer and glue them onto a carrier board ready for wire bonding 01:12:49 imagine a foam box about a foot long and 7" wide filled with wafers like cd's 01:13:11 and each wafer probably had 1000+ dies 01:14:14 ttmrichter, did you see the square pads lining the edge of the chip to which the metal tracks to the BGA balls were bonded ? 01:17:37 I don't mess with that level of hardware. 01:17:46 I just look, wince, and walk away. :D 01:17:57 hahah 01:18:16 a wire bonder would bond to those pads, which makes it pretty easy 01:18:32 youd only bond to the pins you actually used in your project 01:18:49 no one uses all 64 pins on a stm32 anyway Ill wager 01:19:00 Right now my personal Hell is the STM32L011D4. 01:19:13 so youd buy the wafers from STM with no BGA 01:19:15 Not unless they're screwing with external memory. 01:19:19 yeah 01:19:39 i thought you had whipped that STM32L011D4 into line ? 01:19:49 Oh, I have. 01:19:53 But man was that a pain. 01:20:24 Ive bought a STMl073 Nucleo to play with 01:20:43 and some l053's 01:20:45 Try debugging problems when you have no GPIO to spare and where turning on the peripheral you need to communicate with your external peripheral turns off your JTAG... 01:20:58 We're using L071 and L011 right now. 01:21:02 Id call that a personal hell 01:21:24 The bulk of the logic is done on an STM32L011K4. 01:21:36 Then I just redefine the pins and burn it on the D4. 01:21:38 I've only looked at it briefly and noted that all the low power stuff is another layer of config complexity 01:21:51 ESPECIALLY in the L0. 01:21:58 yeah 01:22:05 L0 is like a 3x3 array of interlocking gears. 01:22:13 Touch one wheel and eight others move. 01:22:22 yeah, it's another level of knowledge to assimilate 01:22:25 hahah 01:22:29 The L4 is nicer. 01:22:36 It has a few more native smarts. 01:22:55 Simple example: 01:23:00 avr users still complaining that stm32f0xx is too complicated are in for a shock 01:23:09 There's a thing where you decide if the debug module runs in low power mode or not. 01:23:37 In the L4 you decide which modes the DBGMCU peripheral is active in and you flip the bit in the system config. 01:23:39 why would you want debug in low power ? 01:23:52 Test timings. Test that your interrupt logic is right. 01:23:55 That kind of thing. 01:23:58 aha 01:24:07 By default if you enter low power mode, your debugger disconnects... 01:24:13 ahh! 01:24:26 luckily I'm not into super low power 01:24:35 Now in the L4, as I said, you just toggle the bits for which power mode you want. 01:24:42 low power on a F051 suits me fine 01:24:59 In the L0 you do that. BUT ... it only works if you've turned on the clock to the PWR component. 01:25:08 makes sense 01:25:12 There's over 2000 pages of manuals. 01:25:20 I love manuals :) 01:25:22 That little qualifier is mentioned in one badly-written line. 01:25:28 but it seems some people dont ? 01:25:37 And ... it's COMPLETELY different from the L4. 01:25:51 oh yeah, Ive been tripped up may times by the fine print 01:25:55 (I don't know the status of the L1.) 01:26:22 The L0 is made to aggressively cut the transistor count. 01:26:33 And you can fucking FEEL where they've cut away transisters... 01:26:46 *transistors 01:27:09 at one point I had to write an assert word to check every config was actually effected to find that one wasnt because it had a 'protection' register that had to be massaged first 01:27:22 Everything is hyper-manual. 01:27:32 No common sense in the configuration management whatsoever. 01:27:49 Want to enable a peripheral? 01:27:53 well the F0 is a very low transitor count anyway. something like 6000 ? 01:28:22 The Cortex-M was targeting for under 10,000 and the M+ ... under 12,000? Something like that. 01:29:02 M0, total floorplan area of 0.007 mm2 01:29:17 So wanna enable a peripheral? Need to manually turn on its clock first. And that may also require other clocks turned on that aren't immediately obvious. 01:29:22 which is not many transistors 01:29:30 Yeah, the M0 and M0+ are nice that way. 01:29:35 Just ... ZERO hand-holding. :D 01:29:38 absolutely, Im all across that kind of config 01:29:59 who wants hand holding ? whattareya a sissy ? 01:30:08 (thats ausie lingo) 01:30:56 the configs are one reason the first thing I did was add pretty printing to my cmsis-svd stuff 01:31:55 so for instance the Word "rcc." prints out every RCC register in a 32 bit binary format with legends where I have made them 01:32:29 it's all created from the SVD for the mcu (except the manual legend editing) 01:33:37 then again Ive been working with the STM32F051 since 2014 and have about 7 peripherals I havent yet mastered 01:35:56 I still haven't mastered all the timers. GOD there's so many variants! :D 01:36:10 it's awesome! 01:36:34 and theyre not exactly simple, gahh Ive spent weeks on some simple timer tasks 01:37:49 I use one with my LMT01 temperature sensor, it counts down then interrupts, works nicely but took me a while to figure out/test, luckily Forth makes that pretty easy 01:38:03 I'd hate to use C and learn stm32 01:39:41 11x timers in the STM32L162RDY6TR ! 01:40:23 ttmrichter, ever used radare2/cutter ? 01:40:48 Ive been playing with it RE my own simple stm32 assy code, it's pretty impressive 01:54:41 Don't know what it is. 01:56:03 https://github.com/radareorg/cutter Cutter is a gui front end to radare2 a reverse engineering dissasembler for most ARCH's 01:56:47 it has easy annotation and function naming tools as one attempts to RE binary files 01:57:25 I find it's a lot easier to see what my own generated binaries look like compared to the usual list or lst files 01:58:00 sadly it's on shithub, but one only needs to access it once 02:00:02 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 02:44:19 tp: what about dht11? 02:44:44 or 22 ? 02:45:24 hi yunfan ! i dont know anything about dht11 or 22 ? 02:48:05 tp: but you mentioned temperature sensor, i thought you might had touched dht11 or 22 02:55:44 no Im a big fan of the LMT01 temperature sensor tho 02:56:33 I have a page on it here: https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/project.3temp.sensors.html?highlight=lmt01#project-lmt01-temperature-sensor 02:58:27 yunfan, my sensor uses any number of LMT01's. With two units and a wet bulb I plan to make a humidity sensor at some point 03:01:27 tp: a bulb with temperature sensor, are you trying to make an indoor farm device? 03:02:03 no, I made the LMt01 code so I could use the sensor in a number of applications 03:02:33 for instance, to estimate the charge of a battery, the terminal voltage plus the temperature must be known 03:02:51 and from these two data the charge can be calculated 03:03:59 a humidity sensor is low on my list as my local weather bureau knows my relative humidity already 03:10:13 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 03:23:25 Morning Forth 03:24:17 morning WilhelmVonWeiner 03:29:31 what's up 03:29:37 been busy here this morning 03:29:55 I would've said hi sooner but you people were deep in conversation about something or other 03:31:37 just the usual tech talk, life as usual 03:32:48 earlier I was admiring the beautiful STM32L162RDY6TR in the WLCSP64 package with ttmrichter 03:33:59 silicon only with gold and silver metalizsation on the BGA base 03:34:13 it's a think of fragile beauty 03:44:56 I saw you guys talk about the cortex M0 03:45:21 always wanted to get one of those and learn assembler with it 03:46:16 Pretty sure I've seen DIP-8 M0+ chips floating around which is what interested me 03:46:46 the whole Cortex-M range is pretty impressive peripheral and cost wise, not my favourite for assembly but it's ok 03:47:10 I wouldn't even begin to know what to use to assemble for the platform. 03:47:34 GNU AS is the standard 03:48:09 Else I'd have a Forth for my stem32f401re by now 03:48:13 just gas? 03:48:15 hm 03:48:29 yep, just gas 03:49:21 will it produce binaries I can drag-and-drop flash 03:50:40 i have a demo tarball for a 28 byte blinky online at https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/_downloads/tinyblinky-discovery-m0-28bytes-1.0.zip if you're interested 03:51:25 the source is a brain burner, it was designed by Matthias Koch and Ive only a part comprehension how it works 03:51:41 to a Nucleo board you mean ? 03:52:37 oui 03:52:57 yes 03:54:34 I dont know, Ive been having trouble DND binaries to my STL32L073 nucleo, it just produces this error message "The application file format is unknown and cannot be parsed and/or processed" 03:54:50 yet I can flash them with stlink 03:55:21 I shall have to try after work 03:55:57 I'm not impressed with the STM DND facility on my Nucleo 03:56:46 and the information about the format it requires is hard to find but seems to be any file with a .bin extension 03:57:38 I just imagined it tried to flash any .bin provided 03:57:46 me too 03:58:25 not enough feedback, again I think ST should stick to hardware and stay the hell away from this stuff 03:58:40 or maybe they just give the job to summer interns ? 03:58:47 like their schematics ? 03:58:56 LOL 03:59:42 that's how I felt at university reading through docs for this ST time-of-flight sensor 03:59:42 I've been reading and writing schematics for nearly 50 years and the ST schematics are amongst the most crappy, hard to follow schemas Ive ever seen 04:00:04 just docs in general SUCKED my BALLS 04:00:41 I was discussing this with someone the other week and se surmised that docs are now crap 04:01:19 us old guys remember a time when docs were fantastic, companies employed professionals to make them and they were awesome 04:01:47 nowdays it's a afterthought, minimal and full of errors 04:01:48 it's because an indian hobbyist will know everything in a week and write a partially-decipherable blog post about it on some obscure corner of the internet 04:01:53 (mostly) 04:03:15 and then ST copy it and rename it with their official doc numbers ? 04:04:15 i think they just expect you to work it out yourself now 04:04:53 --- join: dddddd (~dddddd@unaffiliated/dddddd) joined #forth 04:05:00 i have no problems with the ST technical manuals, in fact theyre my favorite embedded doc now 04:05:14 but their schematics and software ? not so much 07:00:52 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 08:52:03 listening to Chuck's EuroForth 2018 speech 08:52:31 hope I can meet him before it's too late. 08:52:38 idolatry 08:59:41 he describes a forth that's basically a register instead of a stack machine, that's new 09:14:55 how is that supposed to work? 09:15:44 he gives a pretty straighforward explanation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SASQMl0rvYg 09:17:04 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@cm-58-10-208-84.revip7.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 09:17:04 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 09:28:47 WilhelmVonWeiner: You should come to California for a Forth Day. 09:29:42 I only ever see Chuck once a year on Forth Day 09:48:40 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 09:48:46 --- join: Zarutian_2 (~zarutian@173-133-17-89.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 09:48:56 --- nick: Zarutian_2 -> Zarutian 09:56:49 --- join: dys (~dys@tmo-108-154.customers.d1-online.com) joined #forth 10:17:23 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 10:30:02 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@cm-58-10-208-84.revip7.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 10:30:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 10:36:02 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 10:36:40 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@173-133-17-89.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 11:20:58 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 11:34:34 --- join: dys (~dys@tmo-083-45.customers.d1-online.com) joined #forth 12:09:34 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 12:15:51 --- quit: cantstanya (Remote host closed the connection) 12:18:31 --- join: cantstanya (~chatting@gateway/tor-sasl/cantstanya) joined #forth 13:17:29 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 14:52:00 --- quit: djinni (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 14:52:44 --- join: djinni (~djinni@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de) joined #forth 14:56:38 --- quit: ashirase (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 15:00:55 --- join: ashirase (~ashirase@modemcable098.166-22-96.mc.videotron.ca) joined #forth 15:05:02 --- quit: presiden (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 15:05:10 --- quit: WilhelmVonWeiner (Remote host closed the connection) 16:02:05 --- quit: ashirase (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 16:19:08 --- quit: dddddd (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:19:53 --- join: dddddd (~dddddd@unaffiliated/dddddd) joined #forth 16:21:33 dave9, """.COM program addresses are not "memory range" checked and .COM programs can access and modify any (RAM) portion of the first Megabyte of memory (including the Operating System and its tables)""" 16:21:46 http://elearning.algonquincollege.com/coursemat/pincka/dat2343/lectures.f03/33-COM-and-EXE.htm 16:36:49 --- quit: john_cephalopoda (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 16:37:00 --- quit: nonlinear (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.github.io) 16:50:46 --- join: john_cephalopoda (~john@unaffiliated/john-cephalopoda/x-6407167) joined #forth 16:55:28 dddddd: damn that looks like a pretty good resource 17:00:39 Oh, true! It has a lot more indeed. http://elearning.algonquincollege.com/coursemat/pincka/dat2343/lectures.f03/lectures.htm 17:01:06 Thanks for pointing it out. 17:26:39 --- join: nonlinear (~nonlinear@unaffiliated/discrttm) joined #forth 17:39:15 --- quit: nonlinear (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.github.io) 17:41:39 --- join: nonlinear (~nonlinear@unaffiliated/discrttm) joined #forth 17:45:18 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 17:45:32 --- quit: dave0 (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 17:45:52 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 18:15:28 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 18:20:47 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 18:40:05 --- join: tabemann (~tabemann@h193.235.138.40.static.ip.windstream.net) joined #forth 18:40:11 --- part: tabemann left #forth 18:41:26 --- join: tabemann (~tabemann@h193.235.138.40.static.ip.windstream.net) joined #forth 19:29:50 --- join: rdrop-exit (~markwilli@112.201.174.189) joined #forth 19:49:45 hey 20:01:27 Hi tabemann 20:01:34 c[_] 20:02:04 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 20:23:10 --- join: tabemann (~tabemann@2600:1700:7990:24e0:3943:c4dd:1438:3e1f) joined #forth 21:07:17 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@h83-174-248-9.dyn.bashtel.ru) joined #forth 21:37:07 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 21:39:59 re 21:40:11 Hi dave0 21:40:25 hi rdrop-exit 21:53:17 bbiab 21:54:51 okay byes rdrop-exit 21:58:21 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 22:36:55 --- quit: mstevens (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 22:38:11 --- join: mstevens (sid285816@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pzpsevzdnylsnuxf) joined #forth 22:45:12 --- quit: Keshl_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:58:07 --- join: Keshl (~Purple@207.44.70.214.res-cmts.gld.ptd.net) joined #forth 23:28:58 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.06.17