00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.06.16 01:27:51 --- join: dddddd (~dddddd@unaffiliated/dddddd) joined #forth 01:47:48 dave0, where can I read about that """allocates the largest free memory block"""? 02:02:41 --- quit: ashirase (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 02:04:55 dddddd: it was either ralf brown's interrupt list or wikipedia... 02:04:59 i'll check 02:06:00 --- quit: dddddd (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 02:06:00 --- quit: deesix (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 02:08:06 --- join: dddddd (~dddddd@unaffiliated/dddddd) joined #forth 02:08:06 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COM_file#Large_programs 02:10:08 thanks, sorry for the disconnection (electrical problems) 02:10:16 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COM_file#Large_programs 02:13:50 http://www.ctyme.com/intr/rb-2934.htm 02:16:47 --- join: deesix (~dddddd@unaffiliated/dddddd) joined #forth 02:34:36 I see... maybe just changing the segments? 02:45:55 don't know 02:47:37 i was hoping i could use all the memory for data space 02:48:14 64K at a time, that for sure. 02:49:33 If the memory is allocated, as it seems to be, I'd try to change the data segment to use another part of the memory. 02:50:17 (wild guess... I know almost nothing about DOS) 02:50:19 i'll try 02:51:45 it's the only operating system i know that works on 8086 02:51:53 linux doesnt:-( 02:52:20 and i got dosbox 02:52:24 Old versions of Minix did. 02:52:34 heyhey ttmrichter :) 02:52:42 Hey, Terry. 02:54:04 plus there was more than msdos, there was zenith dos (for instance) which I thought was much better designed 02:54:25 There's CP/M also. 02:54:58 CP/M-86, yeah. 02:55:00 CP/M also ran on a few architectures such as the Z8000 02:55:03 Never did well, but it was pretty cool. 02:55:44 TRS computers had their own bizarre DOS-like thing when the first 808x-based ones came out, but those died out rapidly in favour of MS-DOS. 02:56:15 dave0 why not write a assembler based Forth to run on 8086 and forget dos alltogether ? 02:57:34 hmm seems there are a few Forths for 8086 anyway 02:57:49 forth.org is down? 02:57:50 CamelForth/8086 - CamelForth 02:58:44 CamelForth/8086 requires an IBM PC with MS-DOS 3.x or higher. It allocates three 64K segments, for code, data, and headers, plus 200h bytes in a fourth segment for stacks, so at least 200K of free RAM is required. 02:59:22 at leaast there is a answer re 64KB segments 03:00:45 WilhelmVonWeiner, cannot resolve forth.org: Host name lookup failure 03:02:44 pointfree: know anything about this? 03:21:26 tp: i downloaded camelforth86 :-) 03:22:31 dave0, hopefully it does what you want or provided tips about the 64KB segments 03:23:36 i had a quick skim of it 04:51:16 --- join: ashirase (~ashirase@modemcable098.166-22-96.mc.videotron.ca) joined #forth 05:46:33 --- quit: dys (Remote host closed the connection) 06:24:18 --- join: dys (~dys@tmo-108-49.customers.d1-online.com) joined #forth 06:42:04 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 06:42:33 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@173-133-17-89.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 07:35:38 --- join: john_metcalf (~digital_w@host86-161-79-249.range86-161.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 08:34:09 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 08:35:12 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@h83-174-248-9.dyn.bashtel.ru) joined #forth 08:35:56 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 08:41:58 WilhelmVonWeiner: I just sent an email to the svfig mailing list. Someone in there manages forth.org. 09:15:12 --- join: cnidario (~aaa@92.57.58.87) joined #forth 09:36:42 --- quit: proteus-guy (Remote host closed the connection) 09:56:33 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@cm-58-10-208-84.revip7.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 09:56:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 10:32:28 --- quit: cnidario (Remote host closed the connection) 11:08:49 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 11:23:52 --- join: dys (~dys@tmo-103-114.customers.d1-online.com) joined #forth 11:25:07 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 11:37:20 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@cm-58-10-208-84.revip7.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 11:37:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 11:50:11 --- join: xek (~xek@apn-31-0-23-83.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl) joined #forth 12:14:28 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 13:40:23 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 15:39:07 --- quit: chunkypuffs (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in) 16:16:03 --- join: chunkypuffs (~chunkypuf@static.203.112.216.95.clients.your-server.de) joined #forth 16:35:23 --- join: rdrop-exit (~markwilli@112.201.174.189) joined #forth 16:38:38 --- quit: john_cephalopoda (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 16:51:56 --- join: john_cephalopoda (~john@unaffiliated/john-cephalopoda/x-6407167) joined #forth 17:22:42 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 17:24:08 hi 17:24:26 c[_] Good morning dave0 17:25:08 --- quit: john_metcalf (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 17:25:25 hi rdrop-exit 17:44:33 --- part: PoppaVic left #forth 18:09:39 Can't find a softcopy of a Wordstar 7.0d manual :( 18:24:59 I wanted to check out some of the commands that were new to that version. 18:26:31 Wordstar, now that's going back in time a bit :) 18:28:34 Sure is :) 18:29:01 IIRC I was using version 3 or so on CP/M and DOS. 18:29:49 I still remember my first copy of Visicalc, I thought it was incredible, manipulating numbers in a grid 18:30:03 that was probably 1981 18:31:56 I never really was fond of DOS or CP/M but was pretty impressed with the Zilog "rio" that ran on their Z80 business machines because it allowed 25 character filenames and had useful system commands that showed what was loaded and where etc 18:32:49 Visicalc was a major breakthrough, one of my summer jobs was as a Night Auditor in a hotel where I was filling out manual (paper) spreadsheets of the previous day's room and restaurant sales. 18:33:06 we had a Z8000 CP/M that ran a surface mount pick and place machine, iirc it was utterly reliable 18:33:34 I think Visicalc was the worlds first spreadsheet ? 18:34:06 I remember the manual entry days and it doesnt seem that long ago :( 18:34:15 Yes, Bricklin & Frankston 18:35:14 my ex wife had a job when she was 19 working in a 20 or so floor building where every floor was full of people with ledgers and mechanical/electrical calculators 18:35:35 When computers were people :) 18:35:55 back then even banks had very large buildings for all the human computers they needed for everyday transactions 18:36:15 yeah, millions of people must have done that worldwide 18:36:25 10's of millions probably 18:36:51 I'm 65 this year so I go back a far way 18:37:36 That hotel job was my first experience of electronic chat, using a Telex to chat with my friend working in another hotel 18:37:57 I recall being really torn between buying a 8 digit 4 function Cannon calculator or having no money for 3 months with my first job ... 18:38:36 :) 18:38:40 you were in on the start of some major tech ? 18:38:44 Telex! 18:39:40 I used a Teletype to program a National Pace 16 bit CPU in 1975, it used a high speed paper tape, I thought it was the coolest thing ever 18:40:18 Telex was still common in hotels, it would print out everything you typed in duplicate or triplicate, I had destroy the evidence before the morning crew came in 18:40:43 I'm a electronics tech and I was assisting the engineer at the time who was using it to build a "iron ore flow guage" 18:40:51 lol 18:40:54 wow 18:41:02 carbon copies ? 18:41:07 yes 18:41:23 or something similar 18:42:09 My first contact with a computer was a school visit to Lawrence Livermore Labs, we got to 18:42:21 turns out that the engineer was really capable, I liked him a lot. He was fired by the General Manager who I didnt like at all for being late with the product, and after he left no one could figure out how the prototype worked 18:42:24 play a game on a teletype 18:42:41 Im in australia where there wasnt much of anything 18:43:18 I spent a good part of my youth in San Francisco 18:44:09 I found out recently about the firmware he made for that machine. Turns out he made a Forth using the assembler the Pace system came with and programmed the whole thing with that Forth 18:44:28 in the 60's ? 18:44:37 Learned C programming in a UC Berkeley extension night course at Xerox PARC of all places 18:45:02 were you one of the hippy's in San Francisco in the 60's ? 18:45:23 Nah, I was a child in the 60s 18:45:23 wow, youre a legend then! 18:46:15 I was 14 when I watched the Moon Landing in school 18:47:12 I even got to travel 1000 kilometers with the engineer and install the Ore Flow Guage in a big "crusher building" in remote Port Headland in Western Australia 18:47:14 I was 7, watched it on TV 18:47:44 me too a black and white TV the school only had one 18:48:20 the school gym was packed and the tv wasnt that big, so I only saw a small Moon landing ;-) 18:48:51 but the excitement was palpable, it seemed like a "really BIG thing" to me 18:49:57 the Ore Flow Guage was very novel, it used two radioactive sources to measure the width of a falling curtain of Iron Ore and from that calculated the flow rate in tns per hour 18:49:58 Oh ya, I was mesmerized 18:50:09 tons per hour 18:50:35 I guess we all were at the time. Its hard to believe no one has been back since 18:50:50 perhaps thats just a indication of how hard it was 18:51:40 Remember the "If they can put a man on the moon, why can't they make a decent cup of coffee" commercials? 18:52:50 Amazing achievement 18:53:10 no, we didnt have a tv at home for many years after that 18:54:09 and so much hinged on the landing pilot and it came so close to disaster 18:54:29 The 50th anniversary is just around the corner, should be tons of documentary coverage 18:54:39 50th! 18:54:52 Time flies 18:55:07 I dont think we were anywhere near ready myself, I think it was reckless 18:55:28 July 20 1969 18:55:33 even now we arent quite there yet 18:55:44 Id have insisted on a orbiting base first 18:56:45 It was the Space Race with the Soviets, 18:57:04 i know 18:57:18 national pride etc 18:57:37 Sputnik and Gagarin scared the hell out of the US 18:57:49 yes 18:58:32 There's a very detailed book on the navigation computer I'd like to read one day 18:59:11 was a hell of a achievement using LARGE components of the day 19:00:57 we wont ever see docs like that nav comp manual again I think 19:01:18 that put the "C" into comprehensive 19:02:43 I watched a video on Youtube where one of the original programmers showed a listing of the software 19:03:32 what did you thin of it ? 19:04:47 Major respect and kudos to the guys who did the hardware and software 19:05:48 they were sure thorough back then 19:09:18 Margaret Hamilton is considered a pioneer of "software engineering" 19:09:48 oh yeah some women did a lot of that software didnt they ? 19:10:54 She did a lot of consulting on fault-tolerant systems afterwards 19:11:19 She headed the software side of Apollo 19:11:27 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Hamilton_(software_engineer) 19:11:27 ah 19:14:35 Somebody's been building a copy of the hardware, there's a youtube channel on it 19:14:52 another woman I think 19:15:10 Margaret Hamilton was very accomplished indeed 19:15:31 Don't know, haven't started watching the hardware videos yet 19:17:20 I'll probably spend a weekend watching Appolo related stuff when the anniversary comes around 19:27:40 ... continuing my search for a Wordstar 7.0d manual 19:31:14 sorry was called away it's Monday at 12:30 midday here 19:31:31 good lick finding a manual, thanks for the chat 19:33:00 Thanks, I doubt I'll find it, I'm now seeing if there's a writeup of some of the features new to that version somewhere on the intertubes. 19:36:58 I have this goofy desire for a Wordstar-ish block editor. 19:37:39 --- join: yunfan (~roooot@unaffiliated/yunfan) joined #forth 19:38:08 --- quit: yunfan (Client Quit) 19:38:16 --- join: yunfan (~roooot@unaffiliated/yunfan) joined #forth 19:40:29 i like block editors myself 19:41:15 I was introduced to the concept in 2014 when using Riscy Pygness Forth by Frank Sargeant 19:42:19 I haven't looked at Riscy Pigness, but I thought his Pygmy Forth was pretty cool 19:42:43 (the DOS based one) 19:46:07 I much prefer blocks to files for source, personal idiosyncrasy. 19:46:12 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 19:46:40 It's like programming on a stack of index cards. 19:48:28 But I perfectly understand why most people find files more convenient. 19:49:19 i find Forthers all have their own unique systems 19:50:00 I developed my own fast uploading system which still has a conventional terminal for use with mecrisp-stellaris 19:50:13 I'm really comfortable with it 19:52:06 Cool 19:58:36 With Forth it's manageable to have everything your way from the ground up. 19:58:58 so true! 19:59:54 when I started learning Forth in 2014 I thought Id have to learn and adapt to strict ways of doing things, I had no idea that Forth would turn out to be so malleable 20:16:24 I find it ironic when Forth implementers complain that Forthers have a tendency to write their own Forth. 20:18:49 It's one of the pleasures of Forth, that you can know your Forth from the ground up, and customize to your specific needs and preferences. 20:20:30 as a tech I have zero desire to write my own Forth but I understand the attraction it has to programmers 20:21:15 my love is building hardware and Forth is perfect for me to complete the job, my skills are on a lathe or milling machine or designing a pcb etc 20:22:06 I cant even write assembly thats more efficient than what mecrisp-across (tethered forth) can produce 20:22:23 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 20:22:43 but I can easily write simple assembly thats heaps smaller than C binaries 20:22:45 Cool 20:23:36 the author of mecrisp thinks in assembly, Id need to be 1000 times smarter tan I am to get anywhere near what he does so easily 20:25:14 I really enjoyed doing some additions to Riscy Pygness, thats as close as Ive come to making any Forth 20:25:51 Ive done some additions to mecrisp-stellaris, mainly adding colour error detection and hardware handshaking 20:26:31 I also added CTS control to the Forth Kernel so when uploading I can halt the upload on the error lines 20:26:53 but thats not really Forth, just some assembly tool additions 20:29:05 Cool 20:29:44 as you say, Forth can so easily be altered to what one wants 20:31:13 I think that's the general pattern with Forth, you adapt it to each project, and in between projects you polish and sharpen it. Eventually you end up with a bespoke tool you know inside and out. 20:31:38 well said! 20:32:51 I cant wait to try mecrisp-stellaris on some STM32L162RDY6TR ships I bought 20:33:12 arrow.com has them on special for $0.90 each and I bought 10 to try 20:33:43 these chips are insane, silicon with metalised gold tracks on the base to 64 BGA solder balls 20:33:55 wow 20:34:18 no plastic at all, pure silicon squares 20:35:40 384KB flash, 12KB eeprom, 48K ram 20:36:06 i think theyre the pinacle of tech at this level in commercial chips 20:36:38 wow wow 20:36:42 11 µA Low-power run mode 20:38:06 5x5x.3 mm in size 20:38:44 but they seem fairly fragile, I havent tried deadbugging one yet 20:39:03 a knife can easily scrape of the metalization on the base 20:39:28 i must take some decent pics of this chip as it's stunning under the microscope 20:46:45 Gotta go, catch you again soon. Keep on Forthin' :) 20:46:59 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 20:47:24 thanks for the chat ;0 21:18:08 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@180.183.96.148) joined #forth 21:18:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 21:18:55 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@h83-174-248-9.dyn.bashtel.ru) joined #forth 22:10:33 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 23:15:24 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 23:30:38 tp: The bare silicon chips from ST are ... yeah, they're nice. But what a pain! 23:31:44 yeah, STM32L162RDY6TR is bodering on hardware porn for me, but so fragile 23:32:26 after one successfully reflows the BGA then it's got to be sealed underneath as it's light sensitive 23:33:29 the package type is "WLCSP64" for my 64 pin units 23:58:51 --- join: xek (~xek@apn-31-0-23-83.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.06.16