00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.05.22
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01:47:12 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Just like Chuck always says
01:47:19 <WilhelmVonWeiner> "write as much code as possible"
01:48:11 <rdrop-exit> =8-O
01:49:49 <WilhelmVonWeiner> "Sometimes I add extra DO loops and screen-long words just for a laff" - Chuck Moore
01:52:00 <rdrop-exit> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
01:55:35 <WilhelmVonWeiner> "computers run at what, 2 gigahertz? why optimise, just write whatever you want" - Chuck Moore
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02:11:20 <rdrop-exit> "Solve the general problem, never the specific problem, try to anticipate where you might need to insert code for future needs"
02:34:34 <siraben> rdrop-exit: just another step to using Forth as a bootstrapping language
02:34:53 <siraben> hence the parser generator
02:36:41 <rdrop-exit> What are you bootstrapping into?
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02:38:47 <siraben> Not sure yet, maybe a C-like language
02:39:07 <siraben> My knowledge of imperative compilers is limited as of yet
02:39:35 <siraben> Also it's for testing to see if I can do this on my calculuator
02:41:41 <siraben> calculator*
02:52:04 <rdrop-exit> Why bootstrap another entire language from Forth when you can just extend your Forth as needed to deal with the application requirements
02:55:05 <WilhelmVonWeiner> why not?
02:55:28 <WilhelmVonWeiner> some things are just fun
02:56:17 <rdrop-exit> Can't argue with fun
02:58:26 <jackdaniel> there is fun in defun
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03:25:27 <siraben> rdrop-exit: both things are fun
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03:27:14 <dave0> re
03:33:35 <rdrop-exit> Hi dave0
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03:38:23 <dave0> hi rdrop-exit 
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05:57:18 <proteusguy> siraben, that's a lot of forth coding you've been up to!
05:57:46 <siraben> proteusguy: it's just a rewrite of the C version, heh
05:57:48 <proteusguy> so strange to see practical forth that isn't actually implementing forth itself. are you sure you're supposed to do that?
05:57:53 <siraben> a lot of it is autogenerated anyway
05:58:12 <siraben> Why not? Sure beats doing this in assembly
05:58:19 <proteusguy> haha yeah - certainly could use some word refactoring to be more forth-like - but it's good to see.
05:58:43 <siraben> Right, I'm using too many locals
06:06:08 <proteusguy> if you can refactor your words to just be a couple of lines long, often those locals will shake out.
06:07:10 <WilhelmVonWeiner> yep
06:07:17 <WilhelmVonWeiner> it's not just for code style reasons
06:07:29 <WilhelmVonWeiner> short words encourage good execution
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08:23:18 <Zarutian> my problem with short words isnt that they are short but that I am terrible at coming up with names
09:05:49 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I name a lot of words F
09:05:54 <WilhelmVonWeiner> and G, and H...
09:06:10 <WilhelmVonWeiner> until I come up with why anyway
09:06:39 <WilhelmVonWeiner> you can name a lot of words by developing top down so that's all well and good
09:28:32 <john_cephalopoda> The only good use for short words is obfuscation :þ
09:31:23 <PoppaVic> untrue, but succinct
09:32:00 <PoppaVic> you used 8 in there, btw
09:32:10 <john_cephalopoda> Artificially short words often make code more difficult to read.
09:32:50 <PoppaVic> If I see a hyphenated-word, yer wrong.
09:39:40 <zy]x[yz> what about -
09:45:06 <crc> my forth has 96 words with a -  http://forth.works/f1c9d1848c4921ee708543b0320d2be5
09:46:47 <crc> 75 if I only do actually hyphenated names: http://forth.works/a927c40eee33ea8d5222f4f102f5267a
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09:50:00 <PoppaVic> Hyphenation means you got TWO issues, not one.
09:50:22 <PoppaVic> ..maybe three, since you may want a MODIFIER word
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09:52:32 <crc> toggle-case, to-number, for-each, etc are one issue, not two
09:56:58 <crc> I use hyphens when I feel that the naming is clearer in the end.
09:57:30 <pointfree> drcs sixel fonts are fun https://vt100.net/dec/vt320/soft_characters
09:58:17 <pointfree> they're working in my mlterm 3.8.8
10:11:57 <john_cephalopoda> crc: And a few thousand if you count #-190 etc ;þ
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10:50:30 <crc> #-190 isn't a word though, it's a token that's processed as a numeric value :)
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13:07:05 <john_cephalopoda> Heh
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13:21:13 <WilhelmVonWeiner> john_cephalopoda: they should never need to be artificially short
13:21:21 <WilhelmVonWeiner> you're probably writing bad code if so
13:22:28 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: Calling words "F", "G" or "H" just makes it hard to understand what's going on.
13:23:18 <john_cephalopoda> I think that readability and maintainability are usually more important than performance or code length.
13:24:29 <WilhelmVonWeiner> F G and H are only ever placeholder names
13:24:41 <WilhelmVonWeiner> unless I'm writing some mathematical function
13:24:55 <WilhelmVonWeiner> in which case I have used F G and H literally
13:25:13 <WilhelmVonWeiner> but ANS-style code is NOT something I'd consider readable
13:26:00 <WilhelmVonWeiner> words that could be 2 64 char lines long spread over 6 or 7 is a visual and cognitive pain in the ass, and discourages factoring
13:27:16 <john_cephalopoda> Hmm, spread by what?
13:27:35 <john_cephalopoda> Because of high word lengths? Or because of indents and linebreaks?
13:27:45 <WilhelmVonWeiner> both
13:29:56 <WilhelmVonWeiner> absolutely unrelated but I think a Forth with smalltalk style objects could be cool
13:31:21 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: Neither line breaks/indentation nor long word length are required in AND Forth.
13:31:26 <john_cephalopoda> *ANS
13:31:35 <WilhelmVonWeiner> doesn't matter, it's ANS style
13:31:44 <WilhelmVonWeiner> because 'C' style is too much of a perjorative
13:32:11 <john_cephalopoda> I don't think there are any code examples in the ANS standard.
13:33:04 <WilhelmVonWeiner> there are not
13:33:27 <WilhelmVonWeiner> there is not afaik*
13:34:22 <john_cephalopoda> And I don't think I've ever seen a coherent style in Forth.
13:34:52 <WilhelmVonWeiner> do you mean consistent
13:34:57 <WilhelmVonWeiner> also: http://forth.org/forth_style.html
13:36:16 <john_cephalopoda> Uh, yeah
13:36:23 <john_cephalopoda> Consistent was the word
13:38:54 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I mostly think of cmForth when I write Forth code
13:44:48 <john_cephalopoda> I am trying to separate things into blocks that are easy to digest. I sometimes write stack diagrams into the middle of the code, because it can quickly get a bit confusing.
13:51:02 <crc> my coding style is still evolving as I work; I may eventually codify it into a consistent approach
13:53:13 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I was writing that Retro style guide but I accidentally deleted the droplet I had it on
13:54:16 <WilhelmVonWeiner> might try that again, at least for my own sake let alone the few users
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14:02:09 <john_cephalopoda> Coding style is a very personal thing, I think.
14:03:15 <john_cephalopoda> It makes sense to keep it consistent over a project, but I don't think that there is a coding style that can fit everybody.
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15:01:24 <dave0> hi
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16:33:16 <rdrop-exit> c[_] Good morning Forthwrights
16:34:54 <dave0> hi rdrop-exit 
16:35:54 <rdrop-exit> hi dave0
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21:35:23 <proteusguy> my word style is to go vertical more than horizontal but I try to keep it under 10 words regardless. this makes it super simple for me to keep my stack picture in my head on each line.
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.05.22