00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.05.14
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01:13:27 <WilhelmVonWeiner> static is POWER!
01:13:33 <WilhelmVonWeiner> static compilation
01:13:38 <WilhelmVonWeiner> static webpages
01:14:02 <WilhelmVonWeiner> static is good
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02:05:23 * jackdaniel recommends a static monitor in a form of a sheet of paper
02:07:23 * dave0 recommends jackdaniel's and ice
02:09:44 <john_metcalf> Are there any games in Forth where you write two programs which have to fight each other? Like Core War.
02:14:46 <WilhelmVonWeiner> that
02:14:50 <WilhelmVonWeiner> is a great idea
02:18:16 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Don't know how it would work though.
02:22:11 <ttmrichter> Emulate a dual-core stack machine with shared memory?  :D
02:26:38 <WilhelmVonWeiner> actually starting to sound very interesting
02:30:11 <ttmrichter> The big thing is you'd have to have some way to stop people from just sniping at where they know the other program is.  Some kind of protections that would have to be unlocked once you actually identify the location.
02:33:11 <WilhelmVonWeiner> have them dumped randomly into memory
02:35:02 <ttmrichter> Hmm....  That could work, true.
02:37:46 <dave0> i did corewars for a project at uni heh
02:38:17 <dave0> it was in curses
02:38:31 <dave0> supposed to be a fancy gui but the guy doing that was a douche
02:38:43 <dave0> so i whipped up a curses front-end
02:39:06 <dave0> it was all written in c though
02:39:35 <dave0> there's a standard for corewars lol
02:39:52 <WilhelmVonWeiner> This would be 
02:39:54 <WilhelmVonWeiner> stackWars
02:40:17 <WilhelmVonWeiner> two stacks pushed - one stack popped
04:26:42 <ttmrichter> WilhelmVonWeiner: I am going to hunt you down and drag you into the ThunderCore.
05:00:38 <proteusguy> hahaha love it.
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05:15:35 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I think a Forth would have to be written for the game though. 
05:15:44 <WilhelmVonWeiner> An eForth base would be a good starting point.
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06:01:07 <ttmrichter> WilhelmVonWeiner: Yes, you'd have to build a custom Forth for the custom stack machine.
06:01:21 <ttmrichter> Ideally a token-threaded one whose tokens are instructions in the hypothetical core.
06:01:50 <ttmrichter> I'd work at it starting from the core myself, though, not the Forth.
06:02:02 <ttmrichter> Let the Forth grow organically out of the foibles of the underlying stack machine.
06:02:28 <WilhelmVonWeiner> that's what I was thinking after posting that
06:02:49 <WilhelmVonWeiner> but, a machine that could run an eForth.
06:10:42 <ttmrichter> Why especially an eForth?  (I have zero experience with eForth so ...)
06:18:00 <WilhelmVonWeiner> small source, very easy to customise any which way  as you write it
06:42:34 <Zarutian> I can attest to that. Ported eForth easily to DCPU-16 without much hassle
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07:47:50 <crc> I occasionally think about porting eforth to nga
07:49:37 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I totally want to try
07:50:01 <WilhelmVonWeiner> soon as I don't feel bad about not dedicating my time to other, university-related things
07:54:38 <zy]x[yz> school is for dorks!
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07:57:16 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I got a job and immediately stopped caring about any kind of graduation
07:57:37 <Zarutian> zy]x[yz: ya take Mark Twain's approach? Not letting schooling get in the way of your education?
07:57:48 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Wish I could motivate myself but it's 36k of debt for what, shit I can learn online for free?
07:57:52 <WilhelmVonWeiner> pardon my french
07:58:58 <zy]x[yz> watch your fucking language, asshole
07:59:09 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Most of my education in electronics and programming is self-taught; if I were looking to get hired solely on what university taught me I might as well go work at Subway
07:59:14 <WilhelmVonWeiner> zy]x[yz: lol
07:59:56 <Zarutian> yeah, I am puzzled why university education in many countries is this bad
08:00:14 <WilhelmVonWeiner> and then people have the gall to tell me that university gives me the ability to teach myself or something like that
08:00:47 <zy]x[yz> i think that is the purpose of school.  some people are already capable of that without school, though
08:00:50 <WilhelmVonWeiner> for 36k I could've rented a flat for the three years I was going and studied on my own time
08:00:51 <zy]x[yz> not everyone is like that
08:01:36 <WilhelmVonWeiner> if I hadn't had to write MELFA BASIC for Mitsubishi robotic arms maybe I would still care about mechatronics
08:02:33 <Zarutian> I sometimes wished that BASIC never made it out of Darthmouth (or whatever the name of the university that 'invented' it)
08:04:38 <WilhelmVonWeiner> but without BASIC what would've kids in the 80s written awful, awful games in?
08:05:24 <zy]x[yz> COMPLICATED
08:09:14 <WilhelmVonWeiner> i laughed too hard and my colleagues all went silent
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09:07:46 <Zarutian> WilhelmVonWeiner: I hope you followed up with "The revenge is mine!"
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13:09:02 <pointfree> Forth in a sector. Well done crc! https://www.reddit.com/r/Forth/comments/bnjcka/forth_video/encmfql/
13:12:07 <john_cephalopoda> The words "redpilled" and "bluepilled" are just as annoying as "sheeple".
13:13:28 <MrMobius> https://wiki.stm32duino.com/index.php?title=Blue_Pill
13:13:29 <MrMobius> ?
13:15:03 <john_cephalopoda> Cute.
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13:20:01 <PoppaVic> Just remember: the blue-pill is a suppository. You were NOT supposed to swallow it.
13:22:27 <pointfree> microcontroller choking-hazard
13:23:04 <WilhelmVonWeiner> http://ix.io/1J3
13:23:08 <WilhelmVonWeiner> http://ix.io/1J39
13:23:20 <WilhelmVonWeiner> is that what a hash table is?
13:23:32 <john_cephalopoda> "The ultimate vaporwave language" :D
13:24:23 <john_cephalopoda> I think I actually know the "Blue Pill"'s MCU. Isn't it on the nucleo board as some kind of flashing helper thingie?
13:25:39 <pointfree> https://hackaday.com/2017/08/04/take-the-blue-pill-and-go-forth/
13:26:30 <APic> Nom nom nom. Wakka wakka!
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13:27:19 <crc> pointfree: thanks :)
13:51:24 <crc> I wonder if I can squeeze that a bit smaller...
14:02:59 <pointfree> The problem is always the text interpreter.
14:03:22 <PoppaVic> ..and the people... always the people.
14:07:13 <pointfree> Parsing always takes so much code. Maybe if I had some semantically meaningful binary data structure instead of crufty character sets.
14:17:04 <WilhelmVonWeiner> could use an integer jump table to build up code using... something
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15:35:12 <dave0> hi
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18:04:15 <ttmrichter> john_cephalopoda: The Blue Pill MCU is an STM32F103C8 which is, yes, the target for ST-Link devices including the built-in ST-Links on Nucleos.
18:07:35 <PoppaVic> they are jlink-edu compatible, are they not?
18:08:56 <Rickta59> the stlink is its own thing
18:09:07 <Rickta59> and use you can use a nucleo to program them
18:09:11 <Rickta59> and yes
18:10:37 <Rickta59> some of the new nucleos might have the stm32f103cb
18:10:47 <PoppaVic> well, I already spent gren on jtag, so screw it.
18:11:04 <Rickta59> what are you going to program PoppaVic ?
18:11:57 <PoppaVic> I've got some adafruit samd's: itsybitsy m0, m4 and an m0 Feather (samD[25]1's)
18:12:20 <Rickta59> did you buy a jlink edu?
18:13:24 <PoppaVic> yep
18:13:40 <PoppaVic> For the price, it can't be beat.. I'mcheap as hell
18:13:42 <Rickta59> you can turn a stlink device into a j-link edu for free from seeger
18:14:15 <Rickta59> you can make a bluepill into a blackmagic probe for the cost of the bluepill
18:14:20 <PoppaVic> well, that's why I asked if the jlink was stlink compat.
18:14:35 <Rickta59> at what level?
18:14:38 <Rickta59> hardware?
18:14:40 <Rickta59> software?
18:14:47 <Rickta59> protocols they support?
18:15:00 <Rickta59> jlink can't be an stlink
18:15:04 <Rickta59> but an stlink can be a jlink
18:15:06 <PoppaVic> plug-in jtag; plug in lappy; plug in board.. talkety-talkety ;-)
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18:15:15 <PoppaVic> I see ;-P
18:15:19 <Rickta59> what are you going to use as your host software
18:15:35 <Rickta59> openocd suport both ot them but they each have their own driver
18:15:48 <PoppaVic> damnfino, as I understand it the arduino package can talk to these samd's
18:16:04 <Rickta59> from the pc host they aren't compatible
18:16:08 <PoppaVic> yeah, I have openocd installed. I am sure some other package uses it
18:16:19 <Rickta59> they are unique usb devices, each with their own usb internface
18:16:52 <Rickta59> but yeah if you are using openocd you can pick the right -f interface/stlink.cfg or -f interface/j-link.cfg
18:17:11 <PoppaVic> well, I'll puzzle it out eventually.. I've held off changing them at all, so far.
18:17:30 <Rickta59> are you using atmel studio for your development?
18:17:43 <Rickta59> or is this just a one time thing to load a forth on there?
18:18:18 <PoppaVic> If I get involved, it'll be gcc or forth-via-asm.
18:18:28 <PoppaVic> No, screw studio. Linux only.
18:18:28 <Rickta59> so from the command line?
18:18:31 <PoppaVic> yeah
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18:19:26 <Rickta59> openocd -f interface/jlink.cfg -f target/someatmelsamedevice.cfg &
18:19:39 <PoppaVic> yeah, sounds about right
18:19:39 <Rickta59> arm-none-eab-gdb -ex 'target remote :3333' foo.elf
18:19:45 <PoppaVic> ugh
18:20:03 <PoppaVic> I have absolutely no warm fuzzies for gdb in any universe
18:20:21 <Rickta59> or use the seeger software
18:20:34 <Rickta59> or vscode and its debugger
18:21:08 <PoppaVic> I suspect, even though I installed all that stuff here, that this particularly lappy will shit and turn toes-up before I start using those samd's.
18:21:12 <Rickta59> or adafruit probably has their own thing :)
18:21:29 <Rickta59> and it won't be compatible with anything :)
18:21:31 <PoppaVic> adafruit will sell you the jlink and point you at seeger ;-P
18:22:09 <ttmrichter> PoppaVic: I got three devices for SWD debugging.  Same board with different firmware: one's a CMSIS-DAP, one's an ST-Link, one's a J-Link OB.  They cost me about five bucks apieces.
18:22:28 <PoppaVic> nice
18:22:33 <Rickta59> my favorite is BMP
18:22:38 <Rickta59> you don't need any host software
18:22:44 <ttmrichter> Buying actual Segger kit is pricey as all Hell.
18:22:58 <ttmrichter> BMP: Black Magic Probe?
18:23:00 <Rickta59> the BMP is a gdb proxy over the serial
18:23:01 <Rickta59> yeah
18:23:09 <Rickta59> so you just connect to it from gdb
18:23:30 <Rickta59> arm-none-eabi-gdb -ex 'target remote /dev/ttyACM0' yourcode.elf
18:23:32 <PoppaVic> ttmrichter: the jlink-edu from adafruit was only about $20, just "not for commercial use" - and given what I get paid to code, this ain't an issue ;-)
18:24:03 <Rickta59> oh and the BMP provides a virtual COM port too
18:24:18 <ttmrichter> So does my adapter.
18:24:22 <Rickta59> so you can use a single cable to get the swd / jtag and another tty
18:24:26 <Rickta59> and BMP is free 
18:24:46 <Rickta59> which one provides that the ST-Link?
18:26:13 <ttmrichter> All three of them give me a virtual COM.
18:26:49 <Rickta59> and those are $5?
18:26:59 <Rickta59> which cmsis-dap?
18:27:35 <ttmrichter> It's tagged "DAPLink" on the back.  Not sure which version that is.
18:28:38 <Rickta59> cool
18:28:46 <Rickta59> i haven't looked around in a while
18:28:52 <ttmrichter> Also supplies a MOSI pin, but I'm not sure how to access that.
18:29:28 <Rickta59> https://github.com/blacksphere/blackmagic i run that on a bluepill
18:30:34 <ttmrichter> If I developed exclusively on Linux I'd probably go that route.
18:30:35 <ttmrichter> Unfortunately I have to use IAR for work.
18:30:48 <Rickta59> ah .. those are jlink/cmsis happy?
18:32:16 <ttmrichter> They support a few, but not a GDB server.  :-/
18:32:52 <Rickta59> i've not tried the commercial products
18:33:34 <Rickta59> seems like it would just be an exercise in jealousy
18:33:39 <ttmrichter> CADI, CMSIS-DAP, I-jet, J-Link, TI Stellaris, Nu-Link, PE micro, ST-Link, TI MSP-FET, TI XDS
18:34:03 <Rickta59> what do you work on? dev tools?
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18:34:37 <ttmrichter> Control systems for high tension test equipment.
18:35:06 <Rickta59> fun
18:36:16 <ttmrichter> It can be.  Until they test some of the high tension equipment in the lab.  Then I get nervous.  :D
18:36:56 <Rickta59> have you zapped anyone yet?
18:37:19 <Rickta59> or more has the testers you make zapped anyone
18:37:44 <Rickta59> are you using forth on the testers?
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18:42:18 <ttmrichter> No, sadly I don't use Forth professionally.  I work with electrical engineers.  :-/
18:42:26 <ttmrichter> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=567529543238
18:42:48 <ttmrichter> There, those are the devices I have for my personal work.
18:42:54 <Rickta59> ah .. you are in china so everything is like 50 cents ;)
18:43:24 <Rickta59> sorry 29 cents
18:43:55 <Rickta59> wait no 4.66
18:44:49 <ttmrichter> Told you.  About five bucks.  :D
18:45:29 <Rickta59> that has drag and drop?
18:45:37 <Rickta59> over mass storage programming?
18:57:24 <ttmrichter> Rickta59: I'm ... not sure.  I've never used Drag and Drop.
18:57:38 <Rickta59> just wondering
18:57:39 <Rickta59> thanks
18:57:45 <ttmrichter> Here at work we use a device that stores our ROM images and programs them directly.
18:58:11 <ttmrichter> So you walk around with this little hand-held device, plug it into the JTAG or USART or whatever port directly and burn.
18:58:36 <Rickta59> :) star trek replicator
19:00:16 <ttmrichter> It's a cool little device, but waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overpriced in my books.
19:00:23 <ttmrichter> I'm tempted to make one myself.
19:07:34 <ttmrichter> The device we use looks kind of like this: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=37048058222
19:07:41 <ttmrichter> Ours is older, though.
19:34:48 <ttmrichter> Rickta59: I just checked.  The DAPLink and the ST-Link variant both support drag-and-drop.  The J-Link does not.
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