00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.05.01 01:48:39 --- join: Keshl_ (~Purple@207.44.70.214.res-cmts.gld.ptd.net) joined #forth 01:49:16 --- quit: pierpal (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 01:49:49 --- quit: Keshl (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 02:02:29 --- quit: ashirase (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 02:07:09 --- join: ashirase (~ashirase@modemcable098.166-22-96.mc.videotron.ca) joined #forth 02:17:49 --- join: dys (~dys@tmo-099-57.customers.d1-online.com) joined #forth 02:22:11 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 03:01:47 --- quit: a3f (Max SendQ exceeded) 03:01:58 --- join: a3f (~a3f@chimeria.ext.pengutronix.de) joined #forth 03:01:58 --- quit: a3f (Changing host) 03:01:58 --- join: a3f (~a3f@unaffiliated/a3f) joined #forth 03:42:35 --- join: dys (~dys@tmo-114-157.customers.d1-online.com) joined #forth 05:57:29 --- quit: PoppaVic (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 06:10:13 --- join: PoppaVic (~PoppaVic@unaffiliated/poppavic) joined #forth 06:29:58 --- join: john_metcalf (~digital_w@host86-142-91-85.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 07:42:33 crc, still no email reply from the good doctor. Perhaps I should just mail you money to stick into his hand at the next SVFIG? ;-) 07:43:38 Maybe ting doesn't know which email he's checking. 07:43:53 Are there any free eForth PDFs? 07:45:11 No idea. I haven't found any. I'm particularly interested in the fpga one he did a while ago. 07:50:56 proteusguy: the ep16 or ep32? 07:52:44 both or either 07:53:10 ep16 at https://github.com/DRuffer/eP16VHDL 07:53:22 I haven't run across a copy of the ep32 yet 07:54:05 cool thanx 07:55:45 no problem 08:09:23 So, I have this weird idea. 08:09:36 You're in the right place! :-) 08:09:44 marrying vim-like enviroment with a forth-like system 08:10:01 instead of text buffer, you have a forth's stack 08:10:22 but instead of forth's word, you have vim's keyboard shortcut 08:11:06 so... 08:11:19 a stack editor, using vim-like keyboard shortcat 08:12:04 I probably should stop and sleep. This going crazy 08:34:42 presiden: Inner Interpreter? 08:44:51 DKordic, what about inner interpreter? 08:45:27 First Base! 08:46:54 presiden: What You are describing souds like an Inner Interpreter. 08:47:35 Anyway, to expand more on it. Imagine a blank vim-like window. 08:47:59 DKordic, is that another forth implementation? 08:48:14 to continue, at first you're in normal-mode. 08:48:32 No... another name for it is Bytecode Interpreter. 08:49:14 pressing p, will put you in insert-mode where anything you type will shows up in the screen. 08:49:33 No. I was talking nonsense!! 08:50:14 pressing esc. in insert mode will bring you back to normal mode, and what you write while in insert mode will be pushed into the stack 08:51:00 etc. etc. 08:51:06 something along those line 08:52:03 why would you want to stack what is essentially queued? 08:52:06 presiden: What is the difference between Stack and ASCII String in ToS? 08:54:54 presiden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_buffer ? 08:57:26 PoppaVic, sorry, could you expand more what about it that's essentially queued? 08:58:53 DKordic, um.. we editing a stack (which displayed in the view window), not a text buffer. That's the different I guess. 08:59:26 presiden: your hotkeys/keystrokes 09:00:50 hotkey to manipulate the stack. p = push, d = drop, s = swap, etc. 09:01:25 when the .. 09:01:27 uh, wait 09:03:06 in normal mode, any keypress will call some forth word(?) 09:05:09 ah, I think I see what's the problem 09:07:07 ([[https://xkcd.com/378/][REAL PROGRAMMERS]]) ""calc-mode"" :D ? A structural Editor, like [[http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.el][Paredit]]? 09:16:08 broken links - failstew. 09:17:22 It's a feature, Org-mode! 11:40:26 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 13:45:18 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host197-221-static.34-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 14:01:21 --- join: cnidario (~aaa@92.57.58.87) joined #forth 14:07:37 --- quit: cnidario (Remote host closed the connection) 14:25:38 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 14:26:29 --- join: dys (~dys@tmo-103-40.customers.d1-online.com) joined #forth 14:47:35 Zarutian do you actually mean to say that you are using a stack based computer based on that (fascinating looking ) book? 14:54:02 ullbeking: not using, implementing on the logic boolean circuit level. 14:55:38 ullbeking: I have gotten the amount of primitive instructions down to less than sizteen 14:55:46 s/sizteen/sixteen/ 15:01:50 Wow!! 15:04:11 The book itself states that it describes a real processor, ergo I shouldbe able to get a dev board or sth like that no? 15:16:19 you meant Harris RTX2010 series? Well do you know anyone in the satelite business? 15:20:13 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@108.060.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 15:20:29 hi 16:11:45 speaking of forth machines, I was reading about the marc4 chips today 16:11:55 where the assembly instructions are all forth words 16:12:08 I think I 16:12:13 m a little late though 16:24:04 --- join: rdrop-exit (~markwilli@112.201.166.63) joined #forth 16:57:30 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 16:58:08 --- quit: john_cephalopoda (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 17:11:45 --- join: john_cephalopoda (~john@unaffiliated/john-cephalopoda/x-6407167) joined #forth 17:34:13 Good morning Forth connaisseurs 17:34:54 Zarutian: actually, yes i doo 17:35:18 i don't know how much of a hands on engineer he is, but yes, is in that field 17:36:22 we are not exactly friends, but he is a close family member of one of my close friends 17:37:11 good evening rdrop-exit 17:37:23 Hi crc :) 17:40:28 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 17:52:17 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 17:57:29 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 18:19:49 --- quit: mstevens (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 18:20:10 --- quit: pointfree (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 18:22:35 --- join: tabemann_ (~tabemann@h193.235.138.40.static.ip.windstream.net) joined #forth 18:22:48 --- join: pointfree (sid204397@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yxnbdfuatupraind) joined #forth 18:25:53 --- join: X-Scale (~ARM@31.22.200.74) joined #forth 18:32:28 --- quit: pointfree (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 18:49:16 --- join: pointfree (sid204397@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tkckfwbxgjesbejg) joined #forth 18:50:11 --- join: mstevens (sid285816@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kbvdmpywnfizbnvh) joined #forth 19:06:36 Been working on a VM implemented in AWK recently 19:06:38 https://github.com/siraben/awk-vm 19:06:55 It's essentially the VM from "The AWK Programming Language" but with a dozen more instructions of my own 19:07:06 example: https://github.com/siraben/awk-vm/blob/master/greet.asm 19:07:24 I could write a Forth in it, but it'll probably be better to redesign the VM 19:07:34 proteusguy: AWK is so mcuh fun! 19:07:59 The emulator and assembler take up around 140 lines of idiomatic AWK 19:09:46 Cool, AWK is great, used to use on almost a daily basis for throwaway text processing. 19:09:51 AWK isn't even meant to be a general-purpose programming language! 19:10:10 I did an expert system once in AWK. 19:11:54 * tabemann_ wonders what it'd take to write a Forth in Brainfuck 19:13:31 --- nick: tabemann_ -> tabemann 19:13:45 The main thing I dislike in awk is that it's floating point only 19:13:57 kinda like javascript 19:14:14 Never looked at Javascript 19:14:57 * tabemann works with javascript every (work) day 19:15:47 well, ES6 19:15:48 Is that good or bad? :) 19:16:26 it's not a pleasant language to work with 19:16:40 Ah 19:16:52 it's completely dynamic - even ES6 classes are really just syntatic sugar 19:18:06 it's sufficiently dynamic that it makes it really easy to shoot yourself in the foot 19:19:50 it has something like the undefined value that only add to this - e.g. referring to an undefined field in an object does not raise an exception but returns undefined, resulting in all kinds of error-proneness 19:20:30 likewise setting an undefined field on an object just creates that field on the fly 19:21:52 I'm not a fan of Java - but it makes me very much appreciate Java, the other language I work with at work, in comparison 19:23:06 I was going to implement something on the JVM once, but I ditched the idea after reading the spec. 19:24:22 I'm not a fan of the JVM environment 19:25:10 The last time I did anything OO was with a very early version of C++, so early that C++ was only available in precompiler form. 19:25:21 but I do appreciate how Java is easy to develop with, compared to JavaScript 19:25:47 you always know what class something belongs to 19:26:04 and you can easily follow call trees and like 19:26:50 Java is essentially C++ minus C 19:27:02 and all the other more advanced features 19:27:14 Java is a latter-day COBOL 19:29:32 I went through a COBOL class once, never had to use it in real life thankfully. 19:30:09 Did a bit of IBM 360 assembly too. 19:30:42 I thankfully never have ever had to use COBOL 19:30:55 even though being a COBOL programmer would be lucrative in this day and age 19:31:22 since there is enough COBOL code out there and an ever-dwindling population of programmers who can maintain it 19:32:04 Absolutely 19:34:42 rdrop-exit: there's always the int() function in awk to get rid of floating point 19:34:48 Legacy work is always well payed, I have a friend makes a killing on Lotus Notes 19:35:21 tabemann: when a language is good enough, people will abuse it! 19:35:42 - Brian Kernighan 19:37:38 siraben: right, Gawk even has bitwise functions, but it's still awkward 19:37:43 it's not about people abusing JS as it is about JS providing very little help to the programmer in their task due to being too free-form 19:38:18 I should write an assembler for Donald Knuth's MIX computer in AWK 19:38:20 of course JS being freeform makes it useful as a compilation target for other languages 19:38:50 tabemann: like asm.js being a target! 19:39:01 I have found that the most helpful languages are the ones that most get in the way. 19:39:16 siraben: that's one example 19:39:19 rdrop-exit: for instance? 19:39:34 there's a number of languages that compile to JS, such as typescript, elm, and purescript 19:39:49 there's even a haskell-to-JS compiler 19:40:24 I think compiling to webassembly is going to relieve performance pains with javascript 19:40:33 I agree 19:41:07 Very bad for auditing code on the web, but it's not like people read the hundreds of KB of javascript served per page anyway 19:41:07 rdrop-exit: Java is a good example of that 19:41:38 Anyone written a Forth for webassembly? 19:41:58 There's only one I found on the web, not very complete unfortunately 19:42:57 I found that one Forth for webassembly as well 19:43:40 brb 19:47:39 tabemann: I suppose one could just grab the C source for pforth or gforth and compile it to webassembly 19:48:11 the main thing, though, is I think you'd have to make modifications to be able to access the UI 19:48:28 Shouldn't be too hard I guess, but I don't know web dev 19:49:00 because webassembly doesn't provide a terminal UI but rather provides a JS FFI to allow calling JS from within webassembly, with which a UI can be implemented 19:49:51 I wonder how much faster https://www.cemetech.net/projects/jstified/ could be if rewritten in webassembly 19:50:59 the gory details https://www.cemetech.net/projects/item.php?id=42#s2 19:51:40 But the thing is that the Z80 runs at 15 MHz, and javascript interpreters in 2011/2012 were already more than fast enough to emulate it in real time 19:54:28 I almost want to write a Forth in webassembly now 19:56:54 okay, gotta head out now - coffee shop is closing 19:56:55 bbl 20:01:17 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 20:24:35 --- join: mstevens__ (sid285816@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mufrludnpqmikhra) joined #forth 20:25:00 --- quit: mstevens (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 20:25:00 --- nick: mstevens__ -> mstevens 20:26:40 --- join: tabemann (~tabemann@172-13-49-137.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 20:39:31 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@h109-187-225-59.dyn.bashtel.ru) joined #forth 21:11:30 --- quit: pierpal (Quit: Poof) 21:11:48 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host197-221-static.34-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 22:32:58 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 22:51:39 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@108.060.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 22:52:05 re 23:31:44 siraben, the MIX processor is an awful architecture I'm afraid to say. I love Knuth but the man really made things unnecessarily difficult and, in his attempt to keep in general, made his code and design style utterly incompatible with anything anyone will ever encounter in real life. (sigh) At least TeX is still pretty useful. :-) 23:32:44 proteusguy: There's a new architecture he made, the MMIX 23:32:46 Which supposedly is better 23:32:51 Like it actually has a stack! 23:33:19 Yeah - still not gonna happen. 23:43:11 proteusguy: I'm thinking of reading The Art of Computer Programmer after school's over 23:45:28 One doesn't just read "TAoCP", one must execute it. haha Honestly it's ok as a reference and a bit useful for how to approach problems but it's incredibly non-practical. I have the hardbacks in my office if you wanna borrow some time. Frankly there's now a lot of better stuff out there online for free once you understand the background of the subject. 23:48:08 I see. Might stop by sometime again :) 23:48:52 you should! 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.05.01