00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.04.29 00:21:46 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host197-221-static.34-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 00:25:49 --- quit: pierpal (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 00:44:40 --- quit: jn__ (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 01:06:46 --- join: jedb_ (~jedb@147.10.221.98) joined #forth 01:07:50 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 01:08:22 --- join: jedb__ (~jedb@185.128.24.51) joined #forth 01:11:48 --- quit: jedb_ (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 01:18:05 ullbeking: "used a lot" sounds like a stretch 01:26:17 --- join: the_cuckoo (~charlie@d51A50AE9.access.telenet.be) joined #forth 01:36:25 --- nick: jedb__ -> jedb 02:01:27 --- join: jn__ (~nope@aftr-109-90-232-66.unity-media.net) joined #forth 02:03:50 --- quit: ashirase (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 02:08:28 --- join: ashirase (~ashirase@modemcable098.166-22-96.mc.videotron.ca) joined #forth 03:43:28 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@108.060.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 03:57:27 hi 04:29:59 --- join: rdrop-exit (~markwilli@112.201.166.63) joined #forth 05:01:33 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 05:04:54 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@108.060.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 05:05:18 re 05:11:52 Hi 05:12:51 hi john_cephalopoda 05:15:53 Hi guys 05:22:33 --- join: dddddd (~dddddd@unaffiliated/dddddd) joined #forth 05:25:22 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@cm-58-10-154-216.revip7.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 05:25:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 05:29:17 hi rdrop-exit 05:32:28 What's up? 05:51:26 just wasting time on youtube :-) 05:52:39 Me too :-)) 06:05:37 --- quit: jn__ (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 06:19:41 --- join: jn__ (~nope@aftr-109-90-232-66.unity-media.net) joined #forth 06:31:38 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 06:46:27 --- quit: reepca (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 06:57:56 its midnight, nite all 06:57:59 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 07:29:09 --- quit: tabemann_ (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 07:34:42 --- join: dys (~dys@2003:5b:203b:102:226:5eff:fee9:68d2) joined #forth 08:59:39 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 09:18:11 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 09:42:15 --- join: X-Scale (~ARM@83.223.242.61) joined #forth 10:35:02 h'lo folks 10:36:03 been thinking a bit about logical level circuit implementation of a dual stack machine 10:37:19 * Zarutian uses https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/ as one of the references. 10:37:22 Did you take some aspirin? Maybe a nap? 10:37:53 hardy har 10:38:17 "And then I jerked awake - bathed in a cold sweat!" 10:39:03 my question to you is, should it have the stack memories addressable via program memory or not? 10:39:15 "The worst part was the sweat was not even mine!" 10:40:51 --- join: reepca (~user@208.89.170.37) joined #forth 10:43:13 Zarutian, are you building something? 10:44:07 Secure Multi Party Computation sequential boolean circuit implementation to run Forth or at least Forthy code on. 10:44:45 (Only have XOR and AND gates! And the latter take one tau of delay!) 10:47:38 a bit esoteric I know but I figgured as Forth code takes so little space and one can have a few very primitive primitve words it would be a nice match 10:48:26 I'm very fond of being able to index stack like the array it is 10:48:52 I saw some presentation about "The future of programming languages" where the future of programming languages is projected from a 70s perspective. 10:49:46 PoppaVic: how fond? Because that question basically boils down to if I am going to use dual or singly ported memories for the stacks. 10:49:51 Quite interesting to see what the developments in the 70s might have pointed to, yet the development went into other directions. 10:50:13 Zarutian: I've never, as I recall, used one of these "hidden stack" devices. 10:50:55 PoppaVic: mostly because you have used Forths that have their stacks in work ram? 10:52:25 yeah 10:53:14 z80, 6510, 286, pentiums, amds, and soon to be ARM as well as avr ;-) 10:54:18 well, I looked at the instruction decoding complexity for those and just settled on the one used by the canonical stack machine in Koopmans book. 10:54:27 wait 6510? So Commodore 64? 10:54:45 yeah 10:55:10 nifty lil' machine - wonderful keyboard - worlds worse "mass storage" 10:56:34 heh, I never experienced MCU's until.. what? 3 years ago? I lacked the cashflow, and so on. Hell, even now this shit is interfering with my damned reloading. 10:56:38 yebb, I heard about the 'lets change from parallel to serial to save some cash!' fiasco. Like 7400's series universal parallel-serial shift register costed tha much or was hard to do. 10:57:41 Zarutian: well, the c64 "floppy drive" was basically rubberbands, springs and chewinggum - fucking thing decided it could read it's own writes/floppies.. Si, I moved on to a Kaypro that was built like a tank ;-) 10:57:53 it could NOT read.. 10:58:17 well, AVR is pretty easy to port a Forth to. Use one of the X, Y, Z index registers as datastack pointer while using the stack pointer register as the one for return stack. 10:58:26 In every possible way, the kaypro was better - EXCEPT.. I missed the minimal graphics 10:58:38 AVR still exists? 10:59:04 john_cephalopoda: the architecture? Sure, still used in all those Arduinos and its clones. 10:59:08 yeah, except: flashing yerself is a pain, and I am in no way interested in storing the dictionary/names/heads on the poor lil' avr 10:59:48 Zarutian: Ah, I just heard all the rumours and fears a few years back when Atmel got swallowed by Microchip. 11:00:25 atmegas and attinys abound: Microchip bought Atmel; Atmega Sam arm-chips are actually "cheaper", but so far I think the ARM is gonna' be a nightmare to program 11:00:45 one thing that Microchip is extremely good at: hardware product support. Even for stuff only twelf pcs are used per decade or so. 11:01:40 PoppaVic: ARM is indeed a nightmare to program for. But still better than many CISC instruction sets that have pointless instructions. 11:02:55 yeah. Well, I bought two textbooks on ARM and SAMD, so I might be able to survive the mindblowing experience. 11:06:17 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 11:07:33 Zarutian: the worst part about it is: apparently the web-world thinks - as does goddamned Microchip - the SAMd's are C-only, I swear.. Happily, the two books will deal with C and ASM - which is excellent, because the stupid, verbose, voluminous datasheets 100% ignore/deny asm for C examples. 11:08:24 That was one of the nicer things about the atmega/avr sheets: they had C plus asm examples - side by side 11:09:12 well, the asm examples were in the earlier versions. The C ones only came later as curtiesy 11:10:07 It's a nicety, and it makes a lot of things quite clear - if you speak C at all. 11:10:40 And, of course, you can coerce your compiler to spew asm and compare (and often do WTF? ;-) 11:10:49 most peeps that are heavly into MCUs look at the C as psuedo code only 11:11:05 right 11:11:46 Well, it depends on your exposre: I've seen too many asm's to get overly thrilled, but avr/atmega asm is stupid-simple. Now, why ARM had to get all crazy, I dunno 11:12:47 To be fair, with avr you are ALMOST further-ahead to write some C - or Forth - to assemble yourself.. Given the nightmares of avr-as and ld 11:14:24 * Zarutian still uses avrdude and all that to get the .hex files 11:14:31 Zarutian: I've been banging on some token-threaded code in C/linux that I've then been working to port to avr, and yeah - I am writing .S so I can draft cpp as WELL as avr-as nonsense.. And it's almost.. very close.. cheaper to just write yer own damned "assembler" 11:14:47 yeah, avrdude is still useful 11:15:13 avra is the assembler I have used (iirc I think it is called avra) 11:15:37 right, avra, gavrasm, and avr-as - all of them are sorta'.. wonky 11:16:06 For some reason, I just continue to "remember" that "macro assembler" was so much easier in cp/m 11:16:11 avra follows the asm syntax used in the avr datasheets exactly. 11:16:47 I don't think avra has been maintained, however - by anyone. 11:17:29 but hell I have thought about doing an 'assembler' for the avr instruction set in Tcl just for the hell of it. 11:17:30 although, I suppose I could (again) coerce cpp to help. Not much interest in doing so 11:18:02 why does it need to be maintained? It eats a textfile and spits out a hex file. What more does it need to do? 11:18:20 (the textfile being the assembly asm file) 11:18:29 damnfino - I've never been thrilled with the macro-parts of these assemblers. 11:19:19 I have never used the macro parts. If I am doing something overly clever I do it in a Tcl file that spits out an assembler file. 11:19:30 heh 11:19:49 I never suffered TCL.. When I get really PO'd, I'll write a C translator. 11:20:46 I did port an "on chip" avr-assembler from one of the Atmega forths over to gforth.. That was sorta' nice, but I should try to review it again and clean it all up 11:21:01 well, many Electronic Design Assistants and other such use Tcl as the scripting language. Plus throwing together an very simple gui with it is pretty easy for me. 11:21:20 As I told kip one night: once you use a forth, the naming conventions/limitations of EVERYTHING else start to piss you off. 11:22:07 Yeah, a gui can be nice - I just never dove into it.. GUI's tend to piss me off - I always feel like I am fighting something that should be "obvious" 11:23:21 fighting how? mind you those guis I have made are not for any joe user who does not know what the thing does. 11:24:11 yeah, I just never get the hang of GUI's - I was barely tolerant of HTML 'forms' ;-) 11:24:15 I'd like to have some standard way to do graphics with forth. Maybe a framebuffer. 11:25:36 * Zarutian recommends doing a minimal RFB 'server' implementation. Heck using nc as part of the invocation shell string you wont even have to muck about with sockets. 11:27:59 PoppaVic: well, think of the GUIs I am talking about as more of an oldstyle control panel with knops, lights, graphs, toggles and such and wouldnt be far off. 11:28:15 sure 11:39:06 though I try to follow the Apple/NeXt-Step Human Computer Interface design guidelines where apropos 11:41:40 Yeah, there are several of those flops around.. Apple, M$, even Gnome and Gtk - gah.. 11:44:05 well, I mainly follow the few rules such as "The user should not have to repeat him or herself when inputting information.", "Dont cram together unrelated things, bordered panes and padding space is a thing" 11:44:36 and "Buttons should start with the verb they do" 11:45:06 plus various real life control panel design rules. 11:45:45 "Never forget the Self-Destruct button." 11:46:49 "Have an cover on the self-destruct button and preferable a lockout keyswitch, perferably with abloy protect lock-cylender" 11:47:39 now, look - that is so unfair! 11:54:04 well, such is life. Plus I do not want to be hunted down by the eldrich horrors that is the safety commission. 11:54:34 It discriminates against mad-scientists, I say. 11:55:58 where did you think the safety commission came from? 11:56:22 hmm, dunghill-cock eggs? 12:03:41 Zarutian: Oooh, that sounds interesting. 12:04:34 Zarutian: Where can I find those guidelines? 12:05:25 just google that title. Should be plethora of copies around the web of it. 12:07:59 Zarutian: Ah, the first search only returned the iOS guidelines, which are totally unhelpful. Second search actually returned something that seems right. 12:27:11 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 13:17:28 --- join: jedb (~jedb@185.128.24.51) joined #forth 13:23:56 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host197-221-static.34-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 14:06:14 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@108.060.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 14:06:33 hi 14:20:37 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:20:57 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@173-133-17-89.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 14:30:21 https://fossil.net2o.de/net2o/doc/trunk/wiki/net2o.md 14:30:42 It is an alternative to the internet and uses a layout engine written in forth. 14:32:58 sounds ambitious 14:33:19 "what's broken?" ... five-bullet list that sums up to "the internet is really old" 14:40:03 * Zarutian wonders if the authors of that net2o had seen http://cap-lore.com/Economics/DSR/SilkSec.html 16:54:26 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 17:00:14 --- quit: john_cephalopoda (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 17:14:06 --- join: john_cephalopoda (~john@unaffiliated/john-cephalopoda/x-6407167) joined #forth 19:17:14 --- quit: KipIngram (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 19:23:14 --- join: KipIngram (~kipingram@2a07:6680:0:1:225:90ff:fee3:d578) joined #forth 19:23:39 --- nick: KipIngram -> Guest53395 19:39:45 --- join: tabemann_ (~tabemann@172-13-49-137.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 19:45:26 Has anyone written a Forth in Awk? 19:45:56 I'm currently reading "The Awk Programming Language" and it's such a nice language 19:57:36 --- quit: Guest53395 (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 19:57:52 --- join: Guest53395 (~kipingram@185.149.90.58) joined #forth 20:20:00 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@h109-187-32-71.dyn.bashtel.ru) joined #forth 20:54:09 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 21:06:57 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@cm-58-10-154-216.revip7.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 21:06:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 21:34:56 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 21:39:54 --- nick: Guest53395 -> KipIngram 21:40:24 --- nick: KipIngram -> Guest62737 21:41:28 --- nick: Guest62737 -> KipIngram 21:41:42 --- mode: ChanServ set +v KipIngram 22:18:14 --- quit: jn__ (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 22:23:31 --- join: jn__ (~nope@aftr-109-90-232-66.unity-media.net) joined #forth 22:26:43 siraben, coming up from the 70's to the 80's finally, eh? awk! you should learn sed while learning awk. 22:28:03 proteusguy: only a natural progression! Lisp, Forth, awk etc ahaha 22:28:21 I've heard of sed, although how does it compare to awk? 22:28:45 Looks like pure regex madness 22:29:04 the two are often used together for processing text. 22:29:14 making you own little languages. 22:29:22 making your own little languages. 22:32:11 that's just s/you/your/ 22:36:06 PoppaVic, haha my chat client let me "up arrow" and edit - leading me to believe it would edit the original text (like my Telegram does) but it fooled me into being a fool! 22:36:34 s/fool!/idjut!/r 22:40:38 Orville Write? heh.. Haven't used it in decades 22:41:25 I miss Janc. Nice guy 22:54:23 proteusguy: cool, yeah, The Awk Programming Language has those cool examples later on 22:54:44 Shows that the right set of primitives and language features can be very powerful 22:56:36 siraben, that last assertion is a powerful one to understand. 23:36:39 --- quit: djinni_ (Quit: Leaving) 23:46:28 --- join: djinni (~djinni@68.ip-149-56-14.net) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.04.29