00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.04.27
00:38:41 <rdrop-exit> Good afternoon Forthwrights
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03:26:17 <john_cephalopoda> Hwy
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06:42:20 <WilhelmVonWeiner> quiet huh
06:42:21 <WilhelmVonWeiner> hey
06:43:00 <presiden> morning WilhelmVonWeiner 
06:43:12 <WilhelmVonWeiner> how art thou
06:52:17 <john_cephalopoda> Hey
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08:02:03 <pointfree> o/ WilhelmVonWeiner 
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09:06:02 <WilhelmVonWeiner> pointfree, I was thinking about you yesterday
09:06:21 <WilhelmVonWeiner> writing a game of snake in Forth and realised a FIFO would be so much more useful
09:06:45 <WilhelmVonWeiner> instead of some sequential memory stuff I have to do instead
09:33:59 <pointfree> WilhelmVonWeiner: that sounds like it could be a good demo of fifo style forth. People were asking for some more substantial applications written in that style. 
09:34:57 * pointfree is at svfig
09:38:08 <PoppaVic> s)tartrek uni(V)erse Forth Interest Group?
09:38:39 <proteusguy> :-) to think that Spock was coding 3D Chess in FORTH!
09:38:49 <PoppaVic> WilhelmVonWeiner: how does a FIFO vary from "sequential memory"?
09:39:20 <PoppaVic> spok played on a weirdass 3d board - it's not even a square-per-level, so......
09:39:25 <WilhelmVonWeiner> it doesn't, just the fifo replaces the stack
09:40:09 <WilhelmVonWeiner> but I can think of most situations I use the stack easily adapting to the fifo
09:40:17 <WilhelmVonWeiner> or being improved
09:40:25 <PoppaVic> WilhelmVonWeiner: well, um.. that is a queue.. queuing is SERIALIZATION
09:40:44 <WilhelmVonWeiner> since your stack is usually 2-3 items deep at worst unless you're storing a lot of data on it
09:40:51 <PoppaVic> certainly I can see reasons to serialize
09:41:07 <PoppaVic> yeah, stacks get stupid fast
09:41:51 <WilhelmVonWeiner> lot of stuff I write would overflow the ANS 24 deep return stack because I abuse it since I don't like allocating memory
09:41:56 <PoppaVic> stacks are great for "got here, let's go wild;" and then DONE: clear it all
09:42:11 <WilhelmVonWeiner> yep
09:42:43 <PoppaVic> alloca-style code is not even remotely MCU headspace, but malloc is even worse for mcu's
09:43:04 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I quite like the idea of a fifo instead of a lifo, then an a and b pair of registers like in colorForth and arrayForth
09:43:13 <PoppaVic> ahhhh
09:43:27 <PoppaVic> I've avoided the A/B idea so far anyway
09:43:43 <PoppaVic> Not to say it can't be hacked in as a "syscall"
09:43:49 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I try to but it's so likeable
09:44:31 <PoppaVic> I dunno what 4 codes I'd sacrifice - even 2 - for A/B - I'd rather require another byte of opcode.
09:45:20 <proteusguy>  In the times you've found queue's useful does it make sense overall to have 2 stacks, 1 queue, and perhaps a register or two? Or does having both queues and stacks make things too complex?
09:45:52 <WilhelmVonWeiner> too complex 
09:46:02 <PoppaVic> Kip is also one to ask about A/B
09:46:21 <proteusguy> WilhelmVonWeiner, have you tried it in practice?
09:46:23 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I was designing something around that and then you don't know when you want a stack or a queue for whatever operation
09:46:38 <PoppaVic> I think the QUEUE is mostly a nice construct for some task
09:47:09 <WilhelmVonWeiner> not for anything large but my university project has been about my own stack machine which is basically a rip off of crc's Nga at this point (because I love nga)
09:47:25 <PoppaVic> WilhelmVonWeiner: in that case, I'd program 2 tests with either solution and see who "won" in size or speed
09:47:50 <WilhelmVonWeiner> and with the stack and the fifo you're thinking too much over a problem domain that doesn't need to be as large as it is
09:47:54 <proteusguy> PoppaVic, I'm kinda of your thinking there.
09:48:04 <PoppaVic> ahh, kids and school - well, ripoffs should fail you - if the prof has a clue (which is never assured)
09:48:24 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I think it's why chuck switched to circular stacks, just a hunch
09:48:47 <PoppaVic> proteusguy: I'm fairly Empiric - or maybe vampiric: shit works or does not. One is clear or not. Make the call, send up the batsignal.
09:49:30 <proteusguy> WilhelmVonWeiner, don't think so. He doesn't use the rollover as a feature for anything except stack over/under flow will only ever mess up your stack and not some other part of memory. I think this is a Good Thing (TM).
09:49:39 <PoppaVic> I'm not a huge fan of RINGS - I don't much care for the code waste
09:50:04 <john_cephalopoda> RINGS?
09:50:16 <PoppaVic> WilhelmVonWeiner: better to avoid Infinite Memory
09:50:17 <proteusguy> PoppaVic, me as well (Empiric) but then I hope after several real-world examples I find a pattern that helps me determine the context in which I should use one vs the other.
09:50:21 <john_cephalopoda> Like ringbuffers?
09:50:23 <PoppaVic> john_cephalopoda: rings are circular
09:50:32 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I like the rollover feature, it's why I have push, pop and pip (reverse pop)
09:51:20 <john_cephalopoda> I think ring buffers are pretty useful data structures.
09:51:37 <PoppaVic> proteusguy: except, I'd chop yer dick off for "pattern" - Yes, I look for "common' vs "esoteric" - I don't mind shit that works in really special situations, but I am goddamned tired of people pretending voodoo saves us all.
09:51:39 <proteusguy> WilhelmVonWeiner, how do you use that on a practical basis? You'd have to predict when your stack is going to wrap around. Seems really hard.
09:51:39 <pointfree> The rollover makes for breadth first execution
09:52:37 <proteusguy> pointfree, sounds like you need a stack of a particular fixed size appropriate for your particular context, no?
09:52:43 <PoppaVic> john_cephalopoda: we are all happy for you, I am sure. Meanwhile, I think of "I am unwinding now and OMFG SHIT WENT WILD"
09:52:44 <WilhelmVonWeiner> oh my stack is always 24 deep
09:52:57 <WilhelmVonWeiner> the circular ones
09:53:38 <PoppaVic> WilhelmVonWeiner: here's an idea: don't nest deeper than 16. Next?
09:55:21 <PoppaVic> I am perfectly fine with stirring up #forth to argue stack-depth and recursion. There is a reason standards have minimal sizes; some of us "THINK MCU" - and frankly, I'd use goddamned C and "infinite memory" in most of the cases folks like to claim in here
09:55:35 <WilhelmVonWeiner> okay here's my example for snake, where I would use the queue to index each point in the snake's body where it makes a turn
09:56:05 <WilhelmVonWeiner> if the snake makes a new turn, it's just adding another update point to the end of the queue
09:56:34 <WilhelmVonWeiner> and you run `update` on each segment which is then appended to the end and they all end up in the order you started with
09:56:59 <WilhelmVonWeiner> on a stack you would have to pop them all off onto the return stack and process each as you push it back
09:57:16 <WilhelmVonWeiner> or, use sequential cells in memory
09:57:32 <WilhelmVonWeiner> both of which are pretty inelegant
09:58:34 <PoppaVic> All you've done in the later case is serialize them into a FIFO - on a stack already designed for something else
10:07:00 <john_cephalopoda> PoppaVic: I don't really understand what you mean with "I am unwinding now and OMFG SHIT WENT WILD"
10:08:06 <WilhelmVonWeiner> getting lost on your ring
10:09:11 <pointfree> proteusguy: I implement the fifo-like code on top of a stack based forth sometimes, with high level produce and consume words ( analogous to push and pop). produce and consume produce and consume to and from the bottom of the stack.
10:09:11 <pointfree> So you still effectively use registers or the stack locally for codewords done this way.
10:09:11 <pointfree> With fifos you can make multiple passes over the same parameters without stashing away parameters with `dup` `over` `tuck` etc.
10:09:11 <pointfree> It kinda looks like pattern matching in a way. I like to use `_` to drop parameters.
10:10:31 <WilhelmVonWeiner> that point about multiple passes is most pertinent
10:19:34 <proteusguy> pointfree, hmm... can you go into the bit about how it looks like pattern matching a bit more?
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10:37:01 <WilhelmVonWeiner> is ting going to release his esp32 eforth
10:37:26 <WilhelmVonWeiner> pointfree: can you ask when there's time
10:38:46 <pointfree> proteusguy: `: d@ depth 1- pick ; : d> depth 1- roll ; : _ drop ; : p? d@ d> $1F $7E within invert and ;   2 3 key 4 key 6  p? p? p? p? p? p?  + + + + + . ( 15)` <-- adds up non-characters.
10:40:02 <pointfree> WilhelmVonWeiner: Ting's giving a talk at the moment. I will ask him about esp32 eforth.
10:40:46 <WilhelmVonWeiner> yeah i'm watching the youtube feed
10:46:43 <pointfree> proteusguy: filtering. I guess I should say pattern matching is the inverse of words https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e702/4d0799a834d59b59e858aa57108c686ab2ae.pdf
10:48:09 <proteusguy> pointfree, cool thanx for the ref!!
10:50:14 <proteusguy> pointfree, can you ask Dr. Ting how to best contact him regarding eForth for Linux and FPGA? I sent him an email at chenhting@yahoo.com.tw back in Dec of 2018 but never heard from him. Referring to this site of his: https://sites.google.com/offete23.com/eforth/cpu-workshop/ep32-in-vhdl-for-brevia-kit 
10:51:36 <pointfree> sure thing!
11:01:24 <WilhelmVonWeiner> is my name too wacky to say out loud
11:01:35 <proteusguy> hahaha I think so
11:01:45 <proteusguy> hahaha
11:01:55 <WilhelmVonWeiner> LOL
11:01:57 <WilhelmVonWeiner> <3
11:03:51 <proteusguy> His site says to contact him via email.... :-) Doesn't have the stuff to download. I sent him the email.
11:04:24 <proteusguy> Guess i'll send him again.... haha
11:04:31 <WilhelmVonWeiner> did someone note that down
11:04:40 <proteusguy> It's exactly what I wrote above.
11:04:48 <WilhelmVonWeiner> lol.
11:05:06 <proteusguy> I tried to contact him and send him money but got no reply.
11:05:56 <proteusguy> Will try again.
11:06:15 <proteusguy> Thanx pointfree ! ;-)
11:06:29 <pointfree> :)
11:06:36 <WilhelmVonWeiner> yeah thanks mate
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16:08:11 <dave0> hi
16:33:44 <crc> hi dave0
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