00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.03.25 01:28:19 --- quit: `presiden (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 02:04:02 --- quit: ashirase (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 02:07:17 --- join: carc (~carc@2001:41d0:52:cff::f85) joined #forth 02:18:09 --- join: xek (~xek@user-94-254-233-114.play-internet.pl) joined #forth 02:24:41 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 02:30:04 --- quit: carc (Quit: QUIT) 02:30:14 --- join: carc (~carc@2001:41d0:52:cff::f85) joined #forth 02:30:27 --- quit: carc (Remote host closed the connection) 02:41:06 --- join: xek (~xek@public-gprs410035.centertel.pl) joined #forth 03:27:40 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 04:25:00 --- join: dddddd (~dddddd@unaffiliated/dddddd) joined #forth 04:30:28 --- join: ashirase (~ashirase@modemcable098.166-22-96.mc.videotron.ca) joined #forth 04:47:32 --- join: xek_ (~xek@user-5-173-136-24.play-internet.pl) joined #forth 04:49:58 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 04:58:43 --- join: xek (~xek@user-5-173-136-24.play-internet.pl) joined #forth 04:59:59 --- quit: xek_ (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 05:01:43 --- join: xek_ (~xek@user-5-173-136-24.play-internet.pl) joined #forth 05:03:58 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 05:03:58 --- quit: xek_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 05:04:58 --- join: xek (~xek@user-5-173-136-24.play-internet.pl) joined #forth 05:08:46 --- quit: xek (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 05:09:00 --- join: xek (~xek@user-5-173-136-24.play-internet.pl) joined #forth 07:38:34 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 08:17:57 --- quit: nighty- (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 09:02:47 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 09:09:07 --- join: xek (~xek@public-gprs401256.centertel.pl) joined #forth 09:52:37 --- join: DabsR (~Mutter@190.62.251.72) joined #forth 10:00:46 --- quit: DabsR (Remote host closed the connection) 10:01:03 --- join: DabsR (~Mutter@186.176.30.59) joined #forth 10:03:03 --- quit: DabsR (Client Quit) 10:03:50 --- join: DabsR (~Mutter@186.176.30.59) joined #forth 10:09:10 --- quit: DabsR (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 10:38:46 Interestingly, I think I end up with fewer NOPS when I use a 16bit Cell rather than a 32bit. 11:12:02 --- join: xek_ (~xek@user-94-254-233-114.play-internet.pl) joined #forth 11:14:34 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 11:27:55 --- quit: xek_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11:28:20 --- join: xek (~xek@user-94-254-233-114.play-internet.pl) joined #forth 11:33:19 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 12:32:40 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 12:44:09 --- quit: a3f (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 12:45:35 --- join: a3f (~a3f@chimeria.ext.pengutronix.de) joined #forth 12:53:25 --- part: mechaniputer left #forth 12:57:30 PoppaVic: similar for me 13:01:37 I am really, really happy with the TTcode engine and assembler on the host. It's not gorgeous, but it is no worse than "assembler" (which encompasses a spectrum that makes me hurl) 13:04:16 * crc likes his assembler... 13:06:16 crc: I was wanting to incorporate the AVR assembler and then add an ARM/thumb2 - but I will be goddamned if I find thumb2, let alone a thumb2 FORTH imp anywhere 13:07:17 ..this would allow you to dip into NATIVE and out again, which is not all bad - but.. I may just scream FUCKIT! and move along. 13:09:08 I gotta' admit, I am not happy with my label/address forward/back resolution, but when yer damned target can be word/3byte and need one or zero extra regs and shit, it tends to make you a bit curmudgeonly 13:09:49 in any case, my shit is no worse than the nonsense of most "assemblers" 13:10:54 https://pastebin.com/wRsmDfY4 13:33:27 --- join: xek (~xek@public-gprs409963.centertel.pl) joined #forth 14:06:07 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 14:18:18 Today I saw a 'C' programmer call it the most portable langiage 14:18:23 *language 14:18:57 I loled and mentioned how even ANS Forth is gonna be more portable 14:19:58 WilhelmVonWeiner: cool. Hows that working out for you? 14:21:06 I wouldn't know, I don't write ANS :^) 14:22:28 I find C tolerable almost everywhere - where I don't care about spacetime/guts. I find ANS to be almost laughable. So, I still play forths and C where I damned well want. 14:22:45 ymmv 14:27:45 but ans core 14:28:12 is pretty hard to get wrong 14:35:29 it's a commie-study that only the most diligent get right. The same folks that complained about FIG, and 79, then 83 - and forth is "dead" except for Forth, Inc. - maybe MPE. And? 14:36:21 All this aside, my C is always more "protable" than your "forth". So? 14:36:39 and, sheesh - I don't even push "standards" in my C. 14:37:50 always? 14:38:01 Forth is running on a virtual machine 14:38:12 anywhere that gcc runs, I run. Problem solved. 14:38:32 Anywhere gcc is NOT, I might want a few days to port. 14:38:43 oh, please 14:38:55 WilhelmVonWeiner: dude, that isn't even a weak argument. 14:39:41 While yer at it, you can now defend Python - or perl. 14:39:57 I guess so, yeah 14:40:23 python is also far more portable than C 14:44:10 * PoppaVic chortles 14:46:48 --- join: xek_ (~xek@public-gprs401768.centertel.pl) joined #forth 14:47:30 --- join: xek__ (~xek@public-gprs411387.centertel.pl) joined #forth 14:49:59 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 14:51:14 --- quit: xek_ (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 15:25:04 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@223.072.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 15:26:15 hi 15:30:11 good evening 15:32:53 hi crc 16:54:35 --- quit: xek__ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 17:21:35 Hi guys. 17:22:07 good mornight 17:24:03 hi KipIngram 17:28:53 How goes? 17:28:58 --- quit: john_cephalopoda (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 17:29:29 just watching taylor swift on youtube :-) 17:29:45 ;-) 17:29:55 That's an alright thing to do. She's awfully nice. 17:30:48 makes good pop songs too :-) 17:30:52 I've mostly just been rolling the display code stuff rdrop-exit filled me in on last night around in my head, before making my own run at it. 17:30:58 Yep. 17:31:37 "makes"?? you have got to be kidding 17:32:43 * crc is dabbling with builds of his vm for machines with less ram 17:40:37 crc: That's the thing about this display stuff - it's definitely RAM hungry. 17:41:58 --- join: john_cephalopoda (~john@unaffiliated/john-cephalopoda/x-6407167) joined #forth 17:42:36 is it? 17:43:20 it is - anything that needs 'buffers' is - the bigger th buffer the worse it is. 17:43:59 These are BIG buffers. :-) 17:44:11 So I definitely want to keep my existing paths working and available. 17:44:48 well, in answer to presiden's usual: even needing a buffer to flash memory can eat the little margin you have. 17:46:47 I don't know why you insist on using those little chips with near zero RAM. It's sort of masochistic... 8-D 17:47:44 Pro Tip: "To prove that you can" is an entirely valid answer to that question. 17:47:54 It is a challenge, and challenges are fun. 17:48:01 Or can be, at least. 17:48:19 KipIngram: yeah, I am into self-abuse - it's obvious from all my tattoo's, the scars, the hip, the hair, my ex['s], #forth and ##C 17:58:33 KipIngram: on a 256 system, I will have for screen buffer, the VM (stacks, registers) itself, and any C code I compile in 17:59:53 that's leaving around 35k cells for the user to use 18:01:57 PoppaVic, ah, we are talking about machine with a limited amount of resource, right... 18:02:33 presiden: very often we are, yes. There is no machine with "infinite resources", just days we pretend so and may not care. 18:03:12 ..alhough, if yer buying the beer, I am willing to argue we got a shitton of people that BELIEVE the latter is true at all times. 18:05:44 A vast number of folks are dicking around with atmel and other controllers, and believe me: RAM is limited. The life of eeprom and flash is limited - and many never even think of this - forth let folks down long ago, but C++ is - to me - vastly worse. 18:07:00 S'ok, though: Marketing still manages to sell billions of chips to someone. 18:14:34 i played with microchip PIC in the 2000's and i squeezed a 512-bit modular exponentiation into 200 bytes of ram :-) 18:14:51 proud of that 18:16:53 crc: "256"... 256kB? 18:17:32 yes, sorry 18:18:34 192kB is reserved for the image, the rest is for the vm and physical hardware 18:23:55 this is openbios, it has a forth in it: https://github.com/openbios/openbios/archive/v1.1.zip 18:27:53 bbl 18:28:05 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 19:01:11 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@b157153.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 19:10:16 --- join: rdrop-exit (~markwilli@112.201.168.172) joined #forth 19:10:45 Good morning Forthwrights :) 19:11:01 hi rdrop-exit 19:12:04 Hi crc 19:13:43 brb 19:15:23 back 19:20:35 How goes it crc? 19:21:02 --- join: tabemann (~tabemann@2600:1700:7990:24e0:35d8:344b:3716:9530) joined #forth 19:21:20 recovering from the flu and a stomach virus :( 19:22:31 Ouch! Get well 19:22:54 I've been experimenting with running my vm & forth an more constrained memory limits. 19:26:28 Cool 19:46:17 What are your experiments telling you? 19:58:52 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@223.072.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 20:01:06 re 20:01:15 Hi dave0 20:01:26 hi rdrop-exit 20:03:20 I can run comfortably with 256K of physical ram, and it's functional with a little tweaking at 192K. With less than that I'd need to split out some of the standard library to have headroom for actually compuling and running any non-trivial user code 20:06:05 I could get it to around 64K if I moved to 16-bit cells, but this would restrict numeric range significantly 20:06:53 crc: Would it really have to? 20:07:40 It would make numeric handling a bit more of a pain with ways of specifying two-cell numbers and single-cell numbers at need, but that would give you room to even give four-cell numbers in future expansion and so on. 20:09:33 ttmrichter: that in possible, but not something I have any desire to do 20:10:07 What was the target in your experiment? 20:11:05 rdrop-exit: I have a Teensy 3.6 microcontroller and an old mbed arm board currently 20:14:16 This is all just early preparation for building a little portable forth computer 20:14:25 Cool 20:18:09 it's not intended as a practical tool, just something I'd like to have for my personal use :) 20:18:27 I still have the urge to make a little Forth computer on a USB stick. 20:19:37 Fun stuff 20:19:43 Take one of the higher-end STM32s (like an STM32L4) in a small enough profile to fit in a udisk enclosure and expose a 3-colour LED and a few pins for GPIO/comms peripehrals. 20:21:49 The idea being you stick it into any computer (or even phone/tablet with OTG) and have a fun little toy to play with. 20:25:28 my goal is a standalone system with a form factor similar to the cambridge z88 or kyotronic 85 20:27:32 Ah the Model 100 20:29:14 yes 20:34:42 Very cool, is anything available in a similar form factor today? 20:38:09 Not that I've seen 20:38:19 That's a shame 20:39:05 In the early 80s I had a Sharp pocket computer, too small, the Cambridge one seems just right 20:40:25 although the keyboard on the Model 100 seems much better 20:41:25 I'm going to have a mechanical keyboard (cherry mx) in mine 20:43:46 Excellent, I use cherry mx greens 20:44:11 clickity-clack 20:44:33 I use blues in my ergodox 20:44:52 I use a Poker 3 20:47:40 Anyway, neat project 20:50:41 https://hackaday.com/2013/01/07/building-a-new-motherboard-for-a-trs-80/ 20:53:02 https://hackaday.com/2019/02/06/the-trs80-model-100-gets-a-brain-transplant/ 20:57:44 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@h37-122-117-136.dyn.bashtel.ru) joined #forth 21:00:47 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstrad_NC100 21:01:19 I had one of those TRS 80 Model 100s 21:04:39 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 21:05:13 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaSmart 21:06:49 The Olivetti version of the 100 had a tilting display 21:06:50 http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/535/olivetti-m10/ 21:24:08 I'd love something like a Model 100 but with an 80x24 display, or at least 64x16 21:26:28 bbiab 21:53:35 --- join: jedb (~jedb@103.254.153.113) joined #forth 21:55:49 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@mx-ll-180.183.115-122.dynamic.3bb.co.th) joined #forth 21:55:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 22:30:00 I'm wondering what's the best approach if you wanna execute forth expression from untrusted input (i.e. from irc message) and still wanna keep it safe 22:30:45 create a dummy guest with limited access, fork a forth and execute 22:31:27 otherwise, vbox 22:45:19 back 22:59:27 --- quit: Keshl (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 23:00:10 --- join: Keshl (~Purple@207.44.70.214.res-cmts.gld.ptd.net) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.03.25