00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.03.03
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01:18:57 <siraben> : ; and friends now work! https://raw.githubusercontent.com/siraben/r216-forth/master/screenshot.png
01:19:24 <siraben> It's very slow only when interpreting, running compiled words is much faster (relatively)
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01:20:35 <siraben> Rewriting WORD https://github.com/siraben/r216-forth/blob/b94457c17ee4fcc54f51cff5790334bb5a669fcb/forth.asm#L711 in assembly should make it much faster during interpretation
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02:41:05 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Good morning Forth
03:07:01 <`presiden> morning WilhelmVonWeiner 
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03:16:31 <siraben> Thoughts on using colors for debugging? https://github.com/siraben/r216-forth/blob/master/screenshot.png
03:17:09 <siraben> Green is interpreted, red is compiled, yellow is interpreted due to the immediate flag
03:23:48 <WilhelmVonWeiner> colours are good
03:24:10 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I like the colour part of colorForth
03:29:32 <dddddd> As usual, mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness
03:34:23 <siraben> Yeah there's that too
03:34:50 <siraben> So red green is a bad choice
03:34:58 <siraben> Should be blue yellow I think
03:35:33 <WilhelmVonWeiner> honestly how many colourblind programmers will be using r216 forh
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03:41:30 <PoppaVic> Some folks actually believe they own the fonts, foreground & background colors on their terminal. Silly people.
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05:10:57 <`presiden> we don't own it?
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05:56:19 <Zarutian> PoppaVic: Yeah, some peeps even believe that they own spefic arrangement of pixel values on all screens and waveforms made by loudspeakers too.
05:58:33 <WilhelmVonWeiner> apparently you can own sequences of characters on paper, even if someone else does all the writing  
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07:14:17 <corecode> sure
07:14:58 <corecode> same for painting; wasn't that a classic bauhaus art piece?
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12:14:36 <KipIngram> Ha ha - got the :: / ::WIPE mechanism working.
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14:07:24 <the_cuckoo> going to be doing a demo of my vmlbatch stuff tomorrow - my audience will be in stockholm and bergen, i'll be in belgium - going to be fun to try to demo a command line based video editing suite :D
14:10:24 <the_cuckoo> i *think* i have a good plan - it involves both sides having twin monitors - when we do scrum, one of them connects to the tv in the room by way of their laptop - we then share the jira info and other stuff we're discussing on that
14:12:38 <the_cuckoo> the idea is that the command line stuff will go on the tv, and the resultant video will be shown on the laptop by way of skype screen sharing (i could use the vml software for this, but can't be arsed trying to tune it for a decent latency/quality trade off - skype'll do)
14:13:02 <john_cephalopoda> the_cuckoo: Pipe it through gstreamer? ;þ
14:13:39 <the_cuckoo> heh - i would use vml, but, yeah sure - it'd be an option
14:14:27 <the_cuckoo> either way, skype is what we use for our current calls - and the main focus is the tmux session
14:17:15 <the_cuckoo> i've set up the system on my side to have twin monitors as well - one of them is connected to my (big) tv and it shows the video, and on the other i run my tmux (the tv is actually to my left and facing toward the opposite end of the room, so i have to turn my head to see it which is a bit awkward, but not an issue for the audience, either locally or remotely) - tmux is running on the monitor directly in front
14:17:16 <the_cuckoo> of me
14:18:58 <the_cuckoo> it would probably help if i mirrored the tv in front of me too - might look into that at another point
14:19:43 <the_cuckoo> going to be an interesting experiment i feel :)
14:24:58 <the_cuckoo> demos will include 4k video play out at 60fps (playout in both directions), concurrent mosaic playout of (i dunno) up to 16 video streams (it's pushing my little i7, but doable - it sucks when i try to play them all in reverse though), arbitrary graphics applied and some basic timeline stuff
14:25:16 <the_cuckoo> i only have 20 minutes, so i need to keep it short and simple
14:26:51 * the_cuckoo vaguely wonders if mixing in a video cam throughout would be pushing it... and decides that it probably would be - but maybe for parts it'd work)
14:30:13 <the_cuckoo> come to think of it, i might have to tone it down - skype might end up being the weak link here - it'll certainly have an impact (and i'm maxing the cores in some of these things... hmmph)
14:31:00 <the_cuckoo> ... maybe i should test that in advance - anyone up for a call? :D
14:31:36 <john_cephalopoda> Got no skype any more :þ
14:31:46 <the_cuckoo> heh - np :)
14:32:10 <the_cuckoo> i'll hopefully grab a colleague to do a test run prior to the presentation anyway
14:34:54 <the_cuckoo> i do have another option - i could do the call from my threadripper instead - it'd handle everything with ease (8 videos in reverse - i mean fluidly - correct framerate, audio reversed kinda thing)
14:35:10 <the_cuckoo> (and mixed)
14:36:12 <the_cuckoo> and sure, i'll give a demo to anyone interested here too - there maybe other options that'd do it - like slack for example
14:38:38 <the_cuckoo> and the command line for the mosaic thing is just [[ *.mp4 ]] glob-list mosaic 
14:39:41 <the_cuckoo> naturaully, you can manipulate the list prior to applying the mosaic - the mosaic it self, you can go on to manipulate - by default it outputs 720p 60fps
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15:45:00 <dave0> hi
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15:51:04 <john_cephalopoda> Hi dave
15:52:01 <dave0> hi john_cephalopoda 
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16:48:47 <rdrop-exit> Good morning Forth afficionados
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16:52:50 <`presiden> morning forthnighter
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17:01:16 <tabemann> hey guys
17:01:31 <rdrop-exit> Hi tabemann
17:02:32 <tabemann> I wonder what I should work on next; part of me tells me I should work on the line editor, but I don't feel sufficiently motivated for that
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17:05:56 <tabemann> hey
17:07:23 <`presiden> "If you have run out of things to do write a web browser" - Chuck Moore
17:07:55 <tabemann> it's not that I've run out of things to do, but rather need something that only requires so much motivation to do
17:09:20 <tabemann> I could port the line editor from attoforth to hashforth, but the thing with that is the attoforth line editor does not really fit the coding style I am aiming at with hashforth (e.g. it uses ALLOCATE very liberally)
17:12:06 <`presiden> speaking about motivation, someone once told me that the best thing to do is set things up so that you have to use as little willpower as possible, because that's a precious resource that needs to be conserved.
17:22:10 <tabemann> okay, I've decided on debugging my deque functionality
17:22:25 <tabemann> as I'm gonna need that working before I can really work on my line editor
17:22:48 <tabemann> and it's gonna be much easier to debug it directly
17:23:32 <rdrop-exit> What is your dequeue functionality?
17:24:12 <tabemann> it's essentially an circular buffer containing fixed sized blocks, which you can add and remove from both logical ends, and also you can get and set in the middle of
17:24:18 <tabemann> *a circular
17:25:07 <tabemann> ultimately it will be used to implement the history and the kill ring for the line editor
17:25:42 <tabemann> as opposed to the linked list of ALLOCATEd blocks that I used in attoforth
17:26:05 <tabemann> *doubly linked list
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17:27:55 <tabemann> hey
17:28:02 <rdrop-exit> Why do you need to remove things from history?
17:28:40 <tabemann> if you want history to fit in constant space
17:29:07 <rdrop-exit> Just recycle the oldest entry
17:29:34 <tabemann> that's what actually happens (it's a circular buffer)
17:30:22 <tabemann> or actually would happen - in attoforth on the other hand history just takes up increasing amounts of space forever, as it gleefully ALLOCATEs yet another block
17:30:34 <rdrop-exit> So you don't really remove or add, just overwrite the oldest entry
17:32:56 <tabemann> that's what actually happens, aside from that the pointers for both ends get moved, so the logical ends are as if one end git popped and the other end got pushed
17:33:22 <tabemann> as logically it's a deque - it's just implemented with a circular buffer
17:33:49 <tabemann> the two ends are needed because the history is empty when hashforth is started
17:34:36 <rdrop-exit> Start with a blank history instead of an empty one
17:35:01 <tabemann> so a history full of blank space?
17:35:38 <rdrop-exit> Yes, it won't be blank for long
17:36:47 <tabemann> note that I also plan on using this deque for the kill ring
17:38:13 <tabemann> the deque as implemented is not that complex, it just needs to be debugged because I've never run it
17:38:14 <rdrop-exit> History only requires one pointer, the insertion point for future history
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17:44:06 <rdrop-exit> brb
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17:47:30 <rdrop-exit> back
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17:50:39 <tabemann> wb
17:51:23 <rdrop-exit> thx
17:57:16 <rdrop-exit> 6
17:57:16 <rdrop-exit> 7 >history Append a byte to the console pane history, and advance
17:57:16 <rdrop-exit> 8          the current insertion point for new history.
17:57:16 <rdrop-exit> 9          If the insertion point advances to a new row, recycle
17:57:16 <rdrop-exit> a          the oldest row of history.
17:57:18 <rdrop-exit> b
17:57:52 <rdrop-exit> Here's the code:
17:58:06 <rdrop-exit> 7
17:58:07 <rdrop-exit> 8 : >history ( x -- )
17:58:07 <rdrop-exit> 9   future @ history-data + b!+  \ -- a
17:58:07 <rdrop-exit> a   col# if  advance  then;  recycle ; compiled
17:58:07 <rdrop-exit> b
17:59:26 <tabemann> you sure like going for the super-simple
17:59:49 <rdrop-exit> I don't have any reason not to :)
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18:06:04 <tabemann> my problem is I always envision ahead of time how things should work, and then I strive to make things fit that, rather than just trying to do things the simplest way possible, however it turns out be damned
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18:08:16 <tabemann> I always start a part of a project by laying out the API first
18:09:15 <tabemann> and I like to make my code form reusable parts
18:09:47 <rdrop-exit> For a particular subsystem I usually try to envision the machine with the least "moving parts" that gets the job done.
18:10:53 <rdrop-exit> I don't care much about reuse of code, just designs
18:18:19 <rdrop-exit> I usually start off the subsystem with a diagram of the "machine"
18:18:54 <rdrop-exit> 0 preamble  Host UI - Console Pane
18:18:54 <rdrop-exit> 1
18:18:54 <rdrop-exit> 2 The Console Pane is the section of the host VDT where past
18:18:54 <rdrop-exit> 3 commands and messages are displayed. When the console pane is
18:18:54 <rdrop-exit> 4 fully scrolled forward the command line at the bottom of the
18:18:56 <rdrop-exit> 5 current console pane page.
18:18:59 <rdrop-exit> 6
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18:20:37 <rdrop-exit> 1
18:20:37 <rdrop-exit> 2     Console Pane History
18:20:37 <rdrop-exit> 3     +---------+
18:20:37 <rdrop-exit> 4     |         |
18:20:37 <rdrop-exit> 5     |         |
18:20:39 <rdrop-exit> 6     |         |
18:20:42 <rdrop-exit> 7     |         |
18:20:44 <rdrop-exit> 8     |.........|
18:20:47 <rdrop-exit> 9     |         |   | window into Console Pane History
18:20:49 <rdrop-exit> a     |         |<--| currently visible in Console Pane
18:20:52 <rdrop-exit> b     |         |   | (may wrap)
18:20:54 <rdrop-exit> c     |.........|
18:20:57 <rdrop-exit> d     |         |
18:20:59 <rdrop-exit> e     +---------+
18:21:02 <rdrop-exit> f
18:21:04 <rdrop-exit> 0 preamble  Host UI - Console Pane - History
18:21:07 <rdrop-exit> 1
18:21:09 <rdrop-exit> 2                   future @ +     0 ~chronology +
18:21:12 <rdrop-exit> 3                     |               |
18:21:14 <rdrop-exit> 4                     v               v
18:21:17 <rdrop-exit> 5               +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
18:21:19 <rdrop-exit> 6 history-flags |x|x|x|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|
18:21:22 <rdrop-exit> 7               +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
18:21:24 <rdrop-exit> 8 history-data  |x|x|x| | | | | | | | |x|x|x|x|x|x|x|
18:21:27 <rdrop-exit> 9               +-----------------------------------+
18:21:29 <rdrop-exit> a               |<----------- #history ------------>|
18:21:32 <rdrop-exit> b
18:21:34 <rdrop-exit> c *** N.B. Circular addressing into buffers. ***
18:21:37 <rdrop-exit> d
18:22:06 <tabemann> back
18:22:52 <rdrop-exit> wb
18:23:28 <rdrop-exit> I pasted some stuff for your perusal
18:23:55 <`presiden> nice diagram
18:24:02 <rdrop-exit> thanks
18:24:39 <yunfan> how did you generate the ascii art?
18:24:42 <rdrop-exit> 0 preamble  Host UI - Console Pane - History - Chronology
18:24:42 <rdrop-exit> 1
18:24:42 <rdrop-exit> 2 The oldest rows of console history rows are recycled to
18:24:42 <rdrop-exit> 3 make room for incoming rows of new history.
18:24:42 <rdrop-exit> 4
18:24:44 <rdrop-exit> 5 We can use the chronology toggle, |~chronology|, to translate a
18:24:47 <rdrop-exit> 6 byte offset into the history buffers into its current
18:24:49 <rdrop-exit> 7 corresponding chronological sequence number, or conversely, to
18:24:52 <rdrop-exit> 8 translate a chronological sequence number to its current
18:24:54 <rdrop-exit> 9 corresponding byte offset into the history buffers.
18:24:57 <rdrop-exit> a
18:24:59 <rdrop-exit> b The chronological sequence number of 0 corresponds to the
18:25:02 <rdrop-exit> c oldest surviving byte of history.
18:25:04 <rdrop-exit> d
18:25:44 <rdrop-exit> yunfan: My fingers do the typing
18:29:36 <tabemann> what I envision is a circular buffer of lines which can also be addressed relative to the newest entry
18:30:02 <tabemann> when a new line is entered, it is prepended to this buffer, and replaces the oldest line if the buffer is full
18:30:30 <tabemann> furthermore, there is an index that points into the buffer that indicates what line the user is at when scrolling through the buffer
18:31:45 <yunfan> rdrop-exit: that's insane :D
18:31:58 <tabemann> whenever anyone enters a line, this index is reset to -1, indicating that currently the current line is the TIB
18:32:20 <rdrop-exit> yunfan: I'm old :)
18:32:44 <yunfan> rdrop-exit: then you must take care your fingers much more
18:33:25 <yunfan> i am considering to learn some single hand inputing method, in case one day my fingers break after years of coding
18:33:41 <tabemann> either rdrop-exit has a very good block editor or is very persistent or both
18:34:01 <rdrop-exit> I'm a two finger typist
18:34:12 <tabemann> I haven't heard of anyone with coding-induced amputation
18:35:01 <rdrop-exit> I use a 61-key keyboard
18:35:22 * tabemann is a touch typist
18:35:48 <rdrop-exit> I've never needed to type fast
18:36:24 <crc> tabemann: I haven't either, but RSI is a valid concern.
18:36:48 <tabemann> it's so natural to me now that the keyboard is essentially a brain-computer interface
18:37:56 <tabemann> crc: that is true, but for me I've never had a problem using keyboards - whereas writing with a pen makes my hand hurt
18:38:31 <rdrop-exit> I only write with fountain pens or mechanical pencils
18:38:36 <crc> I touch type as well, but have had severe RSI issues since my late teens.
18:38:47 <crc> rdrop-exit: I do the same
18:39:09 <rdrop-exit> You must be old too :)
18:39:22 <crc> rdrop-exit: 35 IIRC
18:39:30 <tabemann> I've never touched a fountain pen, and I cannot recall ever seeing one IRL
18:39:36 <rdrop-exit> Get off my lawn crc
18:39:51 <crc> rdrop-exit: sorry...
18:39:52 <tabemann> okay, so you're just slightly older than me (34)
18:40:11 <PoppaVic> kids
18:40:18 <rdrop-exit> :)
18:41:26 <crc> PoppaVic: relatively, yes :)
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18:43:18 <tabemann> I get the impression that many Forthers are of, well, relatively advanced age
18:43:48 <rdrop-exit> When I was in grade school we had inkwells on our desks
18:43:49 <tabemann> young'uns like me are busy programming in stuff like java, javascript, python, lua, scala, haskell, etc. etc. etc.
18:44:29 <tabemann> rdrop-exit, at my middle school I saw ink bottles tucked away in cabinets, even though I never saw them broughten out for us to use
18:45:26 <rdrop-exit> We had special shirts we wore when writing so we wouldn't get ink on our clothes
18:45:45 <tabemann> never had those either
18:45:52 <rdrop-exit> Dip scribble dip scribble ...
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18:47:28 <tabemann> I wonder what the extra w in fftww's nick stands for
18:48:00 <tabemann> (fftw btw is a library implementing the Fast Fourier Transform, for those not in the know)
18:50:36 <crc> I started using fountain pens after high school, so around 17 years ago.
18:52:12 <rdrop-exit> My daily fountain pen is a Nice demonstrator from Platinum
18:55:15 <crc> my main two are a Kaweco Liliput and a Pilot Vanishing Point; the Liliput is probably my main one, by virtue of being the one I always have with me
18:57:33 <rdrop-exit> nice
19:05:26 <rdrop-exit> bbiab
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19:25:41 <rdrop-exit> tabemann, I handle scrolling slightly differently than what you describe
19:26:08 <rdrop-exit> 0 preamble  Host UI - Console Pane - Core 2|5
19:26:09 <rdrop-exit> 1
19:26:09 <rdrop-exit> 2                 page-chrono @ +
19:26:09 <rdrop-exit> 3                   |
19:26:09 <rdrop-exit> 4                   v<--- cc/page --->
19:26:11 <rdrop-exit> 5               +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
19:26:13 <rdrop-exit> 6 history-flags |x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|
19:26:16 <rdrop-exit> 7               +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
19:26:18 <rdrop-exit> 8 history-data  |x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|
19:26:21 <rdrop-exit> 9               +-------------------------------+
19:26:23 <rdrop-exit> a
19:26:30 <rdrop-exit> (cc stands for character-cell)
19:26:46 <rdrop-exit> 0 preamble  Host UI - Console Pane - Core 3|5
19:26:46 <rdrop-exit> 1
19:26:46 <rdrop-exit> 2                2D View
19:26:46 <rdrop-exit> 3 console-org ->+------------------------+
19:26:46 <rdrop-exit> 4               |      Console Pane      | ^
19:26:48 <rdrop-exit> 5               |          64x8          | | console-height
19:26:51 <rdrop-exit> 6               |                        | v
19:26:53 <rdrop-exit> 7               +------------------------+
19:26:56 <rdrop-exit> 8                <------- b/row -------->
19:26:58 <rdrop-exit> 9
19:27:01 <rdrop-exit> a console-org      console# @ +
19:27:03 <rdrop-exit> b          |         |
19:27:06 <rdrop-exit> c          v         v
19:27:09 <rdrop-exit> d 1D View  |x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|x|
19:27:11 <rdrop-exit> e           <------- cc/page ------->
19:27:14 <rdrop-exit> f
19:27:21 <rdrop-exit> 0 preamble  Host UI - Console Pane - Core 4|5
19:27:21 <rdrop-exit> 1
19:27:21 <rdrop-exit> 2                Console Pane History
19:27:21 <rdrop-exit> 3                +------------------+
19:27:21 <rdrop-exit> 4                |                  |
19:27:23 <rdrop-exit> 5                |                  |
19:27:26 <rdrop-exit> 6                |                  |
19:27:28 <rdrop-exit> 7 page-chrono -->|..................|
19:27:31 <rdrop-exit> 8                | scrolling window |^
19:27:33 <rdrop-exit> 9                | visible in       || console-height
19:27:36 <rdrop-exit> a                | Console Pane     |v
19:27:38 <rdrop-exit> b                |..................|
19:27:41 <rdrop-exit> c                |                  |
19:27:43 <rdrop-exit> d                +------------------+
19:27:46 <rdrop-exit> e                 <---- b/row ----->
19:27:48 <rdrop-exit> f
19:27:51 <rdrop-exit> 0 preamble  Host UI - Console Pane - Core 5|5
19:27:53 <rdrop-exit> 1
19:27:56 <rdrop-exit> 2 N.B. History is circular.
19:27:58 <rdrop-exit> 3               +------------------+
19:28:01 <rdrop-exit> 4               | visible in       |
19:28:03 <rdrop-exit> 5               | Console Pane     |
19:28:06 <rdrop-exit> 6               |..................|
19:28:08 <rdrop-exit> 7               |                  |
19:28:11 <rdrop-exit> 8               |                  |
19:28:13 <rdrop-exit> 9               |                  |
19:28:16 <rdrop-exit> a               |                  |
19:28:18 <rdrop-exit> b page-chrono ->|..................|
19:28:21 <rdrop-exit> c               | scrolling window |
19:28:23 <rdrop-exit> d               +------------------+
19:28:26 <rdrop-exit> e
19:28:45 <rdrop-exit> Those diagrams show the mapping between the console pane and the history
19:30:39 <rdrop-exit> a
19:30:39 <rdrop-exit> b page-chrono    Current chronological sequence number of the
19:30:39 <rdrop-exit> c                upper-left character-cell of the console pane.
19:30:39 <rdrop-exit> d
19:30:59 <tabemann> how do you handle history considering that IIRC you execute each word upon entry? do you treat history in a word by word fashion where you can go forward or back word by word?
19:33:44 <rdrop-exit> I echo into the history buffer as you type
19:34:26 <tabemann> that I figured
19:34:33 <tabemann> I mean going back in history
19:36:02 <rdrop-exit> You move navigate or scroll through the console pane
19:36:16 <tabemann> yes
19:36:26 <tabemann> I mean, I assume you don't have to retype things in history
19:36:34 <rdrop-exit> The console pane is displays a "window" into history
19:36:52 <tabemann> but I mean, let's say, let's execute the third word back again
19:38:22 <rdrop-exit> I haven't reimplemented that yet, but you'll be able to ctrl-X when you're cursor is on a word, or do a selection.
19:38:31 <rdrop-exit> * your
19:40:06 <rdrop-exit> Ctrl-X for execute
19:40:26 <rdrop-exit> or somesuch
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19:44:54 <rdrop-exit> Also copy from history and paste into the current block
19:45:17 <tabemann> I'm envisioning scrolling up to the desired line with the up 9and own) arrows, and then hitting enter to execute that line
19:45:36 <crc> I don't keep a history at all
19:46:33 <tabemann> *(and down)
19:47:54 <rdrop-exit> That's possible too, I used to use the enter key, but I'd rather use control keys
19:48:36 <rdrop-exit> for actions as opposed to straight input
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19:50:37 <rdrop-exit> My plan is ctrl-X executes the word your currently on, if you want more then you can use a control key to select the current line in one keypress, or use normal selection to select a span
19:53:38 <rdrop-exit> I only recently started remodelling the UI to the new three pane layout, some things are still up in the air.
19:56:31 <tabemann> okay, gotta go - coffee shop is closing
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19:56:38 <rdrop-exit> Ciao
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20:08:02 <rdrop-exit> Gotta go, catch you all later. Keep on Forthin'
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23:00:29 <siraben> Can Forth be used for robotics? Anyone seen a demo?
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23:27:42 <ttmrichter> siraben: Forth was started as a language for positioning telescopes at observatories, siraben.
23:27:54 <ttmrichter> So ... yeah ... robotics seems to be on-point.
23:55:57 <siraben> I see.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.03.03