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04:40:18 <dave0> re
04:43:17 <smokeink> hey
04:44:01 <dave0> hi smokeink 
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11:11:05 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Evening, forth gang
11:14:36 <PoppaVic> lo
11:18:14 <WilhelmVonWeiner> as a kata was writing a sorted binary tree at lunch today
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11:18:32 <WilhelmVonWeiner> realised without NULL or some None-type it's a bit hard
11:18:47 <PoppaVic> gotta' love them kata
11:18:58 <zy]x[yz> have a node point to itself to mean "no child"
11:19:02 <WilhelmVonWeiner> because in Go or whatever the node just doesn't exist and you can't look in that memory there
11:19:04 <PoppaVic> zero is a wunnerful non-type
11:19:20 <WilhelmVonWeiner> zy]x[yz: that's a good shout
11:19:39 <zy]x[yz> that's how i've started doing it in linked lists
11:19:55 <zy]x[yz> the node is its own end-of-list sentinel
11:20:46 <zy]x[yz> in the context of the datastructure, it's the only value you can ever really assume will be unique from any valid value
11:21:02 <PoppaVic> zy]x[yz: amusing idea.. I'm still too used to zero/null
11:21:28 <WilhelmVonWeiner> zy]x[yz: "assume" is a strong word... "hope" maybe
11:22:06 <zy]x[yz> well if the address of your node overlaps with the address of a valid child, then you've got problems
11:22:40 <PoppaVic> WilhelmVonWeiner: I see his point, but I am too inured to zero/null
11:23:22 <PoppaVic> zy]x[yz: makes me ponder it's use all thru the code for pass/fail
11:27:11 <john_cephalopoda> zy]x[yz: NULL is probably easier than checking equality with its own address.
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11:29:10 <zy]x[yz> i don't see how, but ok
11:29:33 <zy]x[yz> one's a literal, the other is already on your stack.  what's the difference?
11:30:46 <john_cephalopoda> My guess would be that getting the address for the next and doing 0= is slightly easier to do than getting the current one, getting the address of the next one and then running =.
11:31:18 <zy]x[yz> ^ this is why forth fails
11:31:24 <john_cephalopoda> Also a tree is a circle-free graph, so in theory your approach wouldn't be a tree any more ;)
11:31:45 <john_cephalopoda> zy]x[yz: Hmm?
11:31:58 <zy]x[yz> it incentivizes you to design by fewer words versus what's more correct
11:33:19 <john_cephalopoda> How do you define "correct"?
11:33:38 <zy]x[yz> and it is a circle-free graph if the value is a sentinel which means "don't go down this route"
11:34:00 <PoppaVic> NULL/0 is just my old-school headspace; I totally see how his new/next==self is good for "ohshit"
11:34:11 <zy]x[yz> as i said earlier, in a world where 0 is a valid address, the only address which is unique from all valid values is the node itself
11:34:25 <zy]x[yz> to me, that's the more correct implementation
11:34:26 <WilhelmVonWeiner> john_cephalopoda: but 0= means you can't put 0 into your tree
11:34:47 <PoppaVic> zy]x[yz: I disagree about "valid", but I've been fighting for decades.
11:34:58 <john_cephalopoda> Let's assume we got the stack as ( treenode-addr ) and TREE:RIGHT ( treenode-addr -- treenode-addr ) gives you the right subtree.
11:35:14 <WilhelmVonWeiner> zy]x[yz's idea makes sense. [val][left][right] is a tree/subtree
11:35:41 <PoppaVic> "zero" is almost never "proper address", NULL-as-zero is usually the same. The exceptions are too few to panic over.
11:35:41 <john_cephalopoda> DUP TREE:RIGHT = IF ... THEN  \ vs.  DUP TREE:RIGHT 0= IF ... THEN
11:36:03 <WilhelmVonWeiner> = and 0= are both gonna be 1 instruction
11:36:12 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: No tree element will ever have the memory address 0, if you are working with a real system.
11:36:15 <PoppaVic> WilhelmVonWeiner: you hope
11:36:19 <WilhelmVonWeiner> PoppaVic: yeah that's true anyway now that I think about it
11:36:56 <zy]x[yz> huh?  i've worked with mcus where 0 was a valid address
11:37:19 <PoppaVic> ZERO, in every mcu I have, is reserved - it's the startup or vector crap = even as far back as cp/m, soo - useful everywhere but the Down & Dirty code.
11:37:33 <john_cephalopoda> It's valid but I don't know any program models where you'd have anything at 0x0 than the start of the .text segment.
11:38:09 <john_cephalopoda> Even if you'd start your tree at 0x0, the address 0x0 would be the root node, which shouldn't be referenced by anything.
11:38:18 <PoppaVic> zy]x[yz: they are "valid" all over, but only at the lowest levels: bootloaders, startups, etc - far less likely in app-code
11:38:24 <john_cephalopoda> I guess it doesn't really make any difference.
11:38:31 <WilhelmVonWeiner> maybe ya boot loader contains a tree
11:38:39 * WilhelmVonWeiner shrugs
11:39:17 <PoppaVic> ..and I dunno anyone dumb enough to blindly write to zero from an app.. well, ok - I may have SEEN them online, but I don't KNOW them.
11:39:23 <PoppaVic> Darwinism.
11:39:45 <PoppaVic> WilhelmVonWeiner: maybe it does: show me yer MCU where the data is valid down there.
11:40:07 <PoppaVic> ..in those cases, I'd certainly cheer zy]x[yz's idea.
11:40:38 <john_cephalopoda> When I use a bare x86, I can easily store stuff at 0.
11:40:48 <PoppaVic> good for you.
11:41:00 <PoppaVic> so, no OS, naked. Go wild.
11:41:03 <john_cephalopoda> But I'd probably place the multiboot header there, then some .text, then some .data and then some other random stuff.
11:41:13 <zy]x[yz> john_cephalopoda> It's valid but I don't know any program models where you'd have anything at 0x0 than the start of the .text segment.
11:41:17 <zy]x[yz> harvard architecture
11:41:29 <PoppaVic> there is no .text, goddamnit - that's an abstraction
11:41:30 <zy]x[yz> ram begins at 0, not code
11:41:33 <john_cephalopoda> PoppaVic: I am in fact working at a "no OS, naked" level with my Forth.
11:41:47 <john_cephalopoda> PoppaVic: There is no 0x0, it's an abstraction, too.
11:42:06 <PoppaVic> zero is just zero - a placeholder. So, please - don't play that game.
11:42:10 <john_cephalopoda> It's just a random memory cell! Ask a frog where 0x0 is, he won't know!
11:42:39 <zy]x[yz> that's what i've been saying this whole time
11:42:43 <PoppaVic> Oddly, everywhere but my laptops, zero is either FLASH or RAM - or even EEPROM.. or ...
11:43:03 <zy]x[yz> you're burning a random memory cell when you decide to use its address to mean "no value"
11:43:50 <zy]x[yz> why not use -1?  at least it has less of a chance of actually being a real memory location
11:45:49 <john_cephalopoda> zy]x[yz: Eh, it's problematic. Memory locations are unsigned, so you might end up at an actually usable location on 32-bit systems.
11:46:10 <zy]x[yz> signedness doesn't matter
11:46:14 <zy]x[yz> i mean to say whatever is all 1s
11:46:44 <zy]x[yz> (also memory addresses on amd64 are signed)
11:46:49 <zy]x[yz> (for some reason ???)
11:47:50 <john_cephalopoda> 0xffffffff is a memory address and it's at 4.295 GB - which is a memory address where some data could potentially live (more likely than at 0).
11:48:46 <zy]x[yz> i'd say it's less likely that the entire addressable memory space is actually populated, particularly in scenarios where forth is generally used
11:50:00 <john_cephalopoda> On 64-bit machines it is not problematic any more. The chance that anybody stores data at 18.45 Exabyte (unsigned) or 9.something Exabyte (signed) is basically zero.
11:53:39 <john_cephalopoda> Hmmm... 0 for unused children has the advantage that you could do "TREE:NEXT IF <handle empty tree> ELSE <handle child> THEN".
11:53:57 <john_cephalopoda> Uuuh, other way round
11:54:03 <PoppaVic> in a forth system, sans heap, I would walk away from anyone using more than even 64K
11:54:16 <john_cephalopoda> TREE:NEXT IF <handle child> ELSE <handle empty> THEN
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11:58:10 <PoppaVic> I do so love yer dribble without an actual compare.
11:58:30 <PoppaVic> so ZERO continues to be our voodoo
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12:00:20 <john_cephalopoda> It truly is voodoo :D
12:01:55 <john_cephalopoda> I really have to continue with my OS.
12:02:59 <WilhelmVonWeiner> start with the S.
12:05:40 <john_cephalopoda> This already boots: https://github.com/jmf/impexus
12:05:58 <WilhelmVonWeiner> boots into what?
12:06:01 <WilhelmVonWeiner> start with the S.
12:08:13 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: It boots into an operating system stub.
12:08:43 <john_cephalopoda> When you run build.sh, it will build a tiny OS stub executable which you can run in qemu.
12:08:59 <john_cephalopoda> It won't really do anything big but. 
12:09:07 <john_cephalopoda> But I'm working on that.
12:10:01 <PoppaVic> Operating Systems are overrated - ask 99% of mcu
12:11:56 <john_cephalopoda> Those don't really do much though.
12:12:12 <WilhelmVonWeiner> they do quite a lot
12:12:23 <WilhelmVonWeiner> just not all at once
12:12:32 <john_cephalopoda> Once you start getting sophisticated stuff, they'll start running on FreeRTOS or other secure operating systems.
12:12:37 <zy]x[yz> PoppaVic> I do so love yer dribble without an actual compare.
12:12:43 <zy]x[yz> [yz> it incentivizes you to design by fewer words versus what's more correct
12:12:57 <WilhelmVonWeiner> "they'll"
12:13:02 <john_cephalopoda> zy]x[yz: How do you define "correct"?
12:13:06 <WilhelmVonWeiner> that contribution would be rejected by even Wikipedia
12:13:39 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They%27ll_Love_Me_When_I%27m_Dead
12:13:45 <zy]x[yz> john_cephalopoda, the point is that you're designing by how code looks rather than by what it does
12:13:55 <zy]x[yz> that doesn't strike me as good practice
12:14:11 <john_cephalopoda> zy]x[yz: It does one less comparison than code that does 0= or =. 
12:14:13 <PoppaVic> so, we got "feels morally correct" vs "correct" ;-)
12:14:28 <john_cephalopoda> Which is one less instruction that is... _done_ :þ
12:14:37 <zy]x[yz> no, it doesn't
12:15:00 <PoppaVic> writing C works fine for me. Writing forth is similar - Zero vs OTHER is easy. other vs !other is not.
12:15:01 <zy]x[yz> it only does because your branch tests for zero
12:15:19 <zy]x[yz> nobody said that's a universal absolute
12:15:35 <john_cephalopoda> ANS says it's an universal absolute. We are talking about ANS Forth here.
12:15:44 <zy]x[yz> we are?  that's news to me
12:15:44 <PoppaVic> we are? since when?
12:16:03 <PoppaVic> since I don't ANS w/o ANUS
12:16:05 <john_cephalopoda> In an other forth dialect, things might look completely different.
12:16:15 <PoppaVic> ohh... so.. Magic ;-)
12:16:41 <PoppaVic> zy]x[yz: whythefuck didn't you tell me this was anus-code?? ;-P
12:17:32 <zy]x[yz> everything i write is anus code, i thought you knew that
12:17:55 <PoppaVic> bah, no. BUTT, ok.. I can liver with that
12:18:05 <john_cephalopoda> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGdW5juqi5w
12:18:19 <PoppaVic> john_cephalopoda: seriously, I don'
12:18:32 <PoppaVic> t need yer tubage.. Not for anus-code.
12:18:56 <PoppaVic> the rest of the world grew up on textfiles.
12:27:49 <john_cephalopoda> Hmm, inconvenient that there's so little standardisation.
12:28:01 <john_cephalopoda> I'd like to write more tools in Forth.
12:29:02 <john_cephalopoda> ANS at least gives a bit of compatibility.
12:35:36 <PoppaVic> the issue is that too many "standards" exist and add far too much that should not even be there.
12:36:17 <PoppaVic> in that wise, it's no worse than C, C89, C99, Cwhatever, POSIX, BSD, doze, etc
12:37:06 <PoppaVic> but, hey! the solution is always a binary image-file - just ask around.
12:54:24 <jackdaniel> if not for standards we'd still have gazzilion architectures with software which can't be compiled for 99% of them
12:54:47 <jackdaniel> because: architectures are not standarized and languages are not standarized
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13:06:47 <PoppaVic> We never had "gazillions", I was there. TOols were usually proprietary, agreed.
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13:27:55 <jackdaniel> so either you thought I literally meant such big number or you disagree, that there was a vast incompatibility between hardware architectures in the past. I'm not sure how "being there" is relevant given you could be a devoted user of one particular hardware with software written for it (unless by being there you mean you suffered from lack of standarization - but that would be contradictory with what 
13:28:01 <jackdaniel> you say)
13:28:07 <jackdaniel> but I'm getting into offtopic, sorry about that
14:00:39 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I was trying to explain the GA144 to a coworker today
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14:00:56 <WilhelmVonWeiner> he's a PHP and devops guy
14:01:24 <WilhelmVonWeiner> suffice to say he struggled to understand
14:03:03 <PoppaVic> well, it's a gross of grotesque forths - of course he's struggling.
14:03:38 <WilhelmVonWeiner> grotesque forths?
14:04:07 <PoppaVic> each of the cores is minimal and self-contained - not C, not PHP, not c++ - it's "grotesque"
14:04:26 <PoppaVic> *I* can barely visualize it, and there is no chance I could code for it.
14:05:36 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Can't wait for the V2 dev boards. Don't care if it's not pragmatic to learn, it's awesome
14:05:53 <WilhelmVonWeiner> shame arrayForth is proprietary but fair enough
14:05:58 <PoppaVic> yes, yes - everything is "awesome" 
14:06:51 <WilhelmVonWeiner> oh not everything
14:07:31 <WilhelmVonWeiner> but arrayForth and the F18A architure definitely are
14:07:33 <PoppaVic> nono, everything is "awesome" - I been hearing it for a decade.. Just awesome.
14:07:42 <dave0> hi
14:08:06 <WilhelmVonWeiner> hey dave0 
14:08:38 <dave0> hi WilhelmVonWeiner 
14:09:58 <WilhelmVonWeiner> what are you up to
14:11:31 <dave0> just drinking my coffee :-) C4[_]~ C8[_]~ C3[_]~ C2[_]~
14:15:19 <WilhelmVonWeiner> time to start archiving Forth sited
14:15:25 <WilhelmVonWeiner> s/sited/sites
14:15:51 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Sick of this bloody wayback machine
14:24:14 <john_cephalopoda> I want a collection of forth programs for various forth dialects.
14:27:24 <john_cephalopoda> PoppaVic: "and add far too much that should not even be there" <-- Exactly! There are a lot of functions in ANS core that don't belong there.
14:28:28 <john_cephalopoda> And extending ANS Forth isn't a pleasant experience.
14:28:41 <WilhelmVonWeiner> What makes it unpleasant?
14:29:38 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: I don't know of a way to register an extension so it is accepted by ENVIRONMENT?, except maybe for extending ENVIRONMENT?, which feels kinda ugly.
14:30:11 <john_cephalopoda> Otoh ENVIRONMENT? is probably not a good idea alltogether... idk
14:31:06 <WilhelmVonWeiner> who uses ENVIRONMENT?
14:31:12 <WilhelmVonWeiner> what the hell does it even do
14:34:25 <crc> iirc, environment? isn't intended to be extended 
14:36:39 <crc> WilhelmVonWeiner: on ans it can sometimes be used to query environmental constraints or the presence of optional word sets
14:38:05 <john_cephalopoda> CR S" CORE" ENVIRONMENT? . S" FILE" ENVIRONMENT? . S" BLURB" ENVIRONMENT? .
14:38:07 <john_cephalopoda> -1 -1 0  ok
14:38:31 <john_cephalopoda> It can be used to check if ANS extensions are available in the forth implementation that you are using.
14:43:31 <crc> john_cephalopoda: you do need to wrap the calls to environment? in a definition if you want the code to be portable
14:45:24 <WilhelmVonWeiner> hey crc.
14:45:37 <crc> hi WilhelmVonWeiner 
14:45:42 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I can see how RSI would take so much time out of your schedule. my thumb seriously hurts
14:45:46 <WilhelmVonWeiner> even with a trackball.
14:46:29 <crc> RSI is my biggest productivity block
14:47:36 <WilhelmVonWeiner> next I have money I'll buy a vertical mouse and see if that helps
14:47:45 <WilhelmVonWeiner> else probably switch to keyboard-oriented user interfaces.
14:48:25 <crc> Mice are horrible things
14:48:32 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: Does pen input work with RSI?
14:50:44 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Pen input?
14:51:22 <crc> john_cephalopoda: I get bad cramps holding pens for any long periods, they are ok for short interactions
14:51:48 <WilhelmVonWeiner> You too?
14:51:59 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I love pens are writing but it gets seriously annoying
14:52:13 <WilhelmVonWeiner> love me a good fountain pen
14:53:05 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: Drawing tablets (like Wacom Intuos).
14:53:30 <john_cephalopoda> Hmm, or maybe a touchscreen could be a solution.
14:53:52 <john_cephalopoda> Touchscreens aren't great but the hands can be held in a relatively natural way.
14:53:58 <WilhelmVonWeiner> mhm
14:54:10 <john_cephalopoda> (If the screen is put onto the desk in a level or slightly inclined way)
14:54:14 <crc> For pen and paper I only use fountain pens 
14:54:41 <john_cephalopoda> I use all kinds of pens. Any that works. :þ
14:54:50 <crc> I use the apple stylus with my iPad 
14:54:51 <john_cephalopoda> Also drawing digitally, so I got a graphics tablet.
14:55:06 <WilhelmVonWeiner> if I'm keeping track of a stack or some code logic I use a gel or "sign pen"
14:56:53 <WilhelmVonWeiner> mitsubishi uniball "eye" pens
15:00:04 * Zarutian just looked at the screen and saw: Mitsubishi uniball "eye" pens.
15:00:07 <Zarutian> Cyclopic pens?
15:00:32 <Zarutian> "Makes your writing worth staring at!"
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15:01:01 <WilhelmVonWeiner> It'll turn you cyclopic in a sec
15:01:02 <Zarutian> "Robs any writing of its depth!"
15:01:43 <Zarutian> "Gee, that was some flat writing. Probably used an cyclopic pen!"
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15:10:44 <rdrop-exit> Good morning Forthwrights
15:11:24 <crc> hello rdrop-exit 
15:11:41 <rdrop-exit> Hi crc
15:17:24 <rdrop-exit> Ok, caught up on the logs.
15:17:52 <rdrop-exit> Fountain pen and mechanical pencils for me.
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18:11:06 <Croran> Poppavic: I couldn't get PFE to compile even with Mr. Draheim's github repo. I sent him an email. Maybe it's something simple I'm missing.
18:11:41 <PoppaVic> Yeah. I remember I had to kick the makefile in one lousy line, but it was so long ago I forget what I did.. Perhaps I posted to the wiki
18:11:42 <Croran> WilhelmVonWeiner: I loaded this ciforth and it seems to work, but base36 support seems different than described in 'Starting Forth'
18:12:52 <Croran> WilhelmVonWeiner: https://pastebin.com/WFNCfYnE
18:17:36 <Croran> In fact, i'm not even sure how add a hexadecimal value to the stack in hex 'mode'.
18:19:39 <Croran> prefix of '0x' doesn't help
18:19:50 <PoppaVic> $
18:20:27 <PoppaVic> I recall dl & building ciforth, but it was like trying to hack the mothership
18:20:38 <Croran> https://pastebin.com/g8Qggwh2
18:20:41 <PoppaVic> ..so I sneezed on it
18:23:41 <Croran> It was a bit confusing to me too. Apparently ciforth is an intermediary language... and lina is the linux forth layer?
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18:50:53 <crc> yes
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19:00:04 <travisb> hey guys
19:03:52 <crc> hi travisb 
19:05:17 <travisb> I should write up docs on the image format used by hashforth
19:05:40 <travisb> (I've already written docs on all the primitves and services currently supported)
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19:12:27 <travisb> hey
19:13:01 <crc> I'm looking at the arch.md
19:13:39 <travisb> that's very preliminary, I should note
19:13:44 <travisb> e.g. double cells are not included
19:14:17 --- nick: travisb -> tabemann
19:14:52 * tabemann hates how hexchat can't keep nicks on different servers straight
19:31:51 * crc is working on a way to make it easier to add custom code to an image when building retro
19:36:15 <tabemann> image for hashforth are really for bootstrapping, i.e. providing a way to get it into a state where it can actually execute code in Forth; currently there's no way to save an image from a running hashforth instance because there's no way to tell what in the user space is a pointer and what is a value
19:36:41 <PoppaVic> alit vs lit
19:42:47 <crc> My images contain the actual retro language. For easier deployment, the standard VM binary will embed a copy of the image into itself, but it's trivial to save and deploy the images separately.
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19:48:51 <tabemann> the majority of the code implementing hashforth is in the images, as the VM itself does not include nearly enough to form a working Forth implementation
19:49:58 <tabemann> what I would like to do is get hashforth to be self-hosting, so that I can create images with hashforth itself
19:52:20 <tabemann> crc: oh, btw, I just updated the docs to include a specification of the image format
20:39:37 <crc> Got it
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20:46:18 <crc> this is higher level than my vm designs
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20:53:16 <dave0> re
20:53:40 <crc> hi dave0 
20:53:46 <dave0> hi crc
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21:00:12 <crc> I've finished setting things up to make it easier to add custom code to the default retro image at build time.
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22:07:21 <proteusguy> john_cephalopoda that's a bootloader startup you made? As in it gets launched the same way as lilo or grub?
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