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00:37:47 <dave0> i'm going to make r-pick and r-roll that is for the return stack what pick and roll are for the data stack! muahaha
00:47:29 <ttmrichter> You are a vile person.
00:47:33 * ttmrichter shakes hands.
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01:08:10 <dave0> i'm horrible :-)
01:27:38 <WilhelmVonWeiner> why?
01:27:54 <WilhelmVonWeiner> not why are you horrible, but why implement that feature?
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01:29:40 <rdrop-exit> For the ultimate in comfort and luxury, just have:
01:30:13 <dave0> WilhelmVonWeiner: i think it will make  2>r r>2 2r@   simpler
01:30:15 <rdrop-exit> permute ( oldstack permutation# -- newstack )
01:30:52 <dave0> (not making them primitives)
01:32:33 <dave0> i'm exploring ideas on how to write those words in Forth, because the other day i realised what i had written was broken eg.   : r@ r> dup >r ;    i had forgotten that the return IP was on the r-stack
01:33:15 <dave0> juggling the return IP makes the word a lot uglier imho
01:34:04 <WilhelmVonWeiner> : R@ R> R> TUCK >R >R ;
01:34:22 <dave0> now do   2r@   :-)
01:34:54 <WilhelmVonWeiner> : 2R@ 2R> 2DUP 2>R ;
01:35:00 <WilhelmVonWeiner> oh wait lol
01:35:08 <dave0> lol
01:35:40 <rdrop-exit> Low level words should be primitives, although it's nice to have high level alternatives as stopgaps for ease of porting as in eForth.
01:36:04 <WilhelmVonWeiner> : 2R@ R> R> R> R> TUCK >R >R ROT TUCK >R >R ( optional SWAP) ;
01:36:54 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I always forget the direction of ROT first time I type it in a day
01:37:04 <dave0> with r-pick it would be like   : 2r@ 2 r-pick r> 1 r-pick r> ;
01:37:23 <WilhelmVonWeiner> and r-pick is a bunch of more-complex interpreter code
01:37:34 <dave0> r-pick would be a primitive
01:37:37 <WilhelmVonWeiner> yeah
01:38:10 <WilhelmVonWeiner> your code is now complicated by the inclusion of r-pick
01:38:49 <WilhelmVonWeiner> it might run marginally faster but you're adding a more-complex stack operation and reducing overall system simplicity
01:39:11 <dave0> for 2 extra words (r-pick and r-roll) i can write 4 words r@ 2r@ 2r> 2>r simpler
01:39:38 <dave0> 2 primitive words... 4 high level words
01:39:39 <WilhelmVonWeiner> might as well make S/" a primitive
01:40:02 <rdrop-exit> 2r@ is just the double analogue of r@, should be just as simple.
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01:41:12 <rdrop-exit> : 2r@ ( -- d )( r: d -- d ) 2r> 2dup 2>r ;inlined compiled
01:41:26 <dave0> i'm still exploring ideas.. i thought i'd throw out the r-pick & r-roll for shits&giggles :-)
01:41:28 <WilhelmVonWeiner> marking it as inlined would be cool
01:41:37 <dave0> pick and roll seems to be contentious heh
01:42:18 <rdrop-exit> I think they lead to bad habits and worse code in the long run
01:42:21 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I personally think treating your stacks as arrays probably means you're doing something too complicated and should just scrap it and start over
01:42:33 <rdrop-exit> Yes
01:43:42 <dave0> :-(
01:43:53 <WilhelmVonWeiner> lol dave
01:44:02 <dave0> :-)
01:44:08 <WilhelmVonWeiner> i mean at the end of the day, if it works for you...
01:44:21 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Wonder what the greybears on CLF would have to say
01:45:07 <rdrop-exit> I think it comes from the all resources are infinite and free school of engineering.
01:45:13 <dave0> oh a newsgroup?
01:45:22 <WilhelmVonWeiner> yeah comp.lang.forth
01:45:44 <WilhelmVonWeiner> with Albert van der Hoorst and Bjarne Straustrup
01:45:45 <WilhelmVonWeiner> wait
01:45:49 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Bernd Payasan
01:45:52 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Not Bjarne
01:45:57 <WilhelmVonWeiner> that would be weird
01:46:00 <dave0> http://sametwice.com/forth_channel_regulars
01:46:55 <WilhelmVonWeiner> rip old #Forth
01:47:44 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I love Sam Falvo's code and thought patterns, even if I hate the formatting
01:48:21 <rdrop-exit> Gotta run, keep on Forthin'
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01:48:48 <dave0> he leaves quick :-p
01:48:55 <WilhelmVonWeiner> love that guy
01:49:03 <WilhelmVonWeiner> always good ideas
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02:06:47 <proteusguy> Sam's just a super smart cool guy.
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02:07:54 <WilhelmVonWeiner> shame he formats his code as walls of pure unformatted forth
02:08:14 <proteusguy> yeah - my strongly typed ActorForth will put a stop to that. haha
02:08:30 <proteusguy> Sam's a hardware guy so no bits should be wasted.
02:08:55 <WilhelmVonWeiner> completely unsurprised
02:09:32 <proteusguy> siraben's here in my office looking at some basic proposal for ActorForth. Saw some Elm code on one of my staff's screens and is now pair programming with them. haha
02:10:40 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I think Elm is awesome and I wish I had the time to get into it's guts and learn it
02:11:19 <proteusguy> It is a cool language. Wish is wasn't so tied to the virtual DOM architecture so it wasn't solely a front end language. One day...
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04:30:50 <siraben> That was fun. Implemented a parser for a JSON-like language at proteusguy's office :)
04:31:40 <proteusguy> naturally he did it in lisp rather than the targeted language or forth! ahem!
04:38:01 <siraben> Heh, I already had a monadic parser library
04:38:03 <siraben> https://github.com/siraben/monadic-parsing
04:38:27 <siraben> Elm has one too!
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04:48:57 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Need to learn me scheme. John Carmack recommended me SICP so I'm going to mash it out in depth
04:49:17 <corecode> hehe
04:49:27 <siraben> WilhelmVonWeiner: watch the lectures too
04:49:42 <corecode> scheme or any lisp?
04:49:46 <siraben> the textbook is much harder :)
04:49:53 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I only have audio on a fresh boot, so I probably won't.
04:50:42 <WilhelmVonWeiner> OpenBSD 6.4 doesn't like my sound card after suspend.
04:50:47 <siraben> I see. I really enjoyed the lectures in any case
04:51:25 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I love watching talks and presentations so maybe I'll squeeze it in
04:51:35 <WilhelmVonWeiner> but if I'm at my computer I probably don't have audio
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10:36:26 <Croran> I like the postfix notation of Forth, but it seems like that concept breaks down pretty often even in ANS Forth.
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10:36:41 <Croran> For instance, the ." or the ( or the ' operators.
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10:38:08 <Croran> Wouldn't it be nice to be able to put a string onto the stack and then use a word to operate on it?
10:41:25 <Croran> For that matter, even the :
10:41:55 <Croran> I would like to say "newword" : instead of : newword
10:42:49 <crc> Croran: my forth works more like that (no parsing words in mine)
10:43:18 <crc> I do have prefixes though (similar to the colors in colorforth), so I'd do  :newword
10:43:37 <crc> but no ." or '
10:44:11 <crc> ' is replaced with a & prefix
10:44:28 <crc> ." hello"  becomes  'hello s:put
10:45:45 <Croran> That seems good. Is there another language whose standard uses more postfix notation than Forth?
11:04:26 <crc> I'm not sure. Postscript maybe, but it has at least some parsing words (e.g., `bind`)
11:04:50 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Croran: the lack of postfix in those words is illusory, imo
11:04:58 <WilhelmVonWeiner> They're reading the input buffer
11:05:50 <WilhelmVonWeiner> it's why you wouldn't be able to write CREATE <CR> SOME_STRUCTURE because the input stream is some location in memory
11:07:30 <Croran> WilhelmVonWeiner: It's all just a syntax isn't it? Syntax itself is arguably an 'illusion'.
11:07:37 <Croran> WilhelmVonWeiner: I'd like it more if there was a common way to put something into the input buffer before calling a word to operate on that buffer. CRC's use of ' seems good.
11:08:38 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I don't know how syntax (or Forth's lack of syntax) is an illusion
11:09:35 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I like the prefixed way Retro does things but there are occasions where reading some kind of input buffer could be nice
11:10:10 <WilhelmVonWeiner> But also I don't think you get what kind of buffer I'm talking about
11:10:44 <WilhelmVonWeiner> In retro, 'string puts the address of a series of bytes "s t r i n g \0" on the stack
11:11:14 <WilhelmVonWeiner> there's s:keep and s:temp but those aren't like the >in buffer in Forth
11:12:41 <WilhelmVonWeiner> You could use PAD for a temporary string buffer
11:12:49 <WilhelmVonWeiner> or ALLOT and un-allot
11:14:08 <Croran> I like the retro way of putting the address of the string on the stack
11:15:23 <WilhelmVonWeiner> But that's what S" does, only it reads from the input buffer delimited by "
11:15:32 <WilhelmVonWeiner> S" also puts the count but you can use cstrings
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11:16:28 <Croran> oh ok. so it would probably be trivial to modify : to accept a syntax like s" newword" :
11:16:29 <Croran> ?
11:18:36 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I don't know about trivial, maybe
11:18:43 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I don't know how : is implemented
11:18:45 <WilhelmVonWeiner> probably should
11:20:31 <Croran> and syntax like s" this is a comment" (
11:20:42 <Croran> or maybe more readably s" this is a comment" comment
11:20:58 <WilhelmVonWeiner> seems weird and pointless
11:21:27 <Croran> some people think postfix notation is weird and pointless
11:21:50 <WilhelmVonWeiner> it is point free
11:21:57 <WilhelmVonWeiner> kekeke
11:22:37 <crc> : implementation will be implementation dependent
11:24:47 <crc> For retro,  :: d:create &class:word reclass &Compiler on ;
11:24:55 <zy]x[yz> ( isn't necessarily prefixed syntax, it just drives the state of the parser
11:24:59 <crc> then  'newword : ... ;
11:27:36 <Croran> that was fast
11:33:37 <crc> for gforth-0.7.3:   : : ( addr count -- )  ['] : execute-parsing ;
11:33:58 <crc> s" newword" : ... ;
11:37:28 <WilhelmVonWeiner> you know that's cheating
11:37:34 <WilhelmVonWeiner> ticking :
11:59:23 <crc> WilhelmVonWeiner: it's the Forth 200x way to do this in a potentially portable manner
12:00:17 <Kumool> Im not a forth programmer, but : word ; has never looked like postfix to me, its looks more like a prefix operator
12:01:40 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Yeah, : is syntactically prefix 
12:01:57 <Kumool> naming an anonymous functions would be more postfix like
12:02:11 <WilhelmVonWeiner> but then again it's just a word that sets up the compiler state
12:02:17 <WilhelmVonWeiner> so it just looks prefix
12:04:08 <crc> If I added a : to retro, it'd probably use quotes:  [ ... ] 'name :
12:04:22 <Kumool> that would be nice
12:07:51 <Kumool> you could specify a dictionary, since : would be a sort of prefix operator?
12:08:44 <Kumool> just thinking out loud
12:10:20 <crc> I only have a single dictionary/vocabulary
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13:39:20 <crc> I added it (as `def`) to my set of sample code: http://forth.works/2173baf94e3085f4dc5e24beaebeec33
13:40:41 <crc> (decided not to include it in the base image for now as I don't have anything that requires this functionality)
13:41:29 <john_cephalopoda> Is there a curated list of small forth utilities and games?
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13:46:34 <crc> not that I'm aware of
13:47:43 <crc> https://github.com/ForthStar?tab=stars stars most forth related bits on github
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13:51:04 <john_cephalopoda> Lol, it even starred my repo :D
13:51:47 <WilhelmVonWeiner> john_cephalopoda: Thanks for reminding me to add that to my TODO
13:53:17 <john_cephalopoda> Hmm, it would be cool to have a JS implementation of some standard-ish forth so you can play forth games in browser.
13:53:19 <crc> there's also http://theforth.net/packages
13:53:33 <john_cephalopoda> crc: Yeah, that's more libraries than utilities though.
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13:59:21 <dave0> hi
14:03:01 <crc> john_cephalopoda: https://archive.li/jcesT
14:03:45 <crc> will need some manual work as it's on archive.org now, but it supported a lot of ANS CORE and CORE EXT
16:00:39 <john_cephalopoda> crc: Link doesn't work properly.
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17:13:31 <crc> john_cephalopoda: I'll see if I can dig out a copy I had saved previously; won't be until tomorrow though (can't do external drives via the ipad or my vps, so will have to wait until I get access to a desktop tomorrow)
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18:09:48 <tabemann> hey guys
18:10:29 <crc> hi tabemann 
18:18:59 * tabemann just figured out why ^D was making hashforth crash
18:19:19 <tabemann> i.e. it was not properly handling EOF on stdin
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19:15:19 <crc> john_cephalopoda: http://forthworks.com/temp/jsforth/jsforth80x25.html
19:15:55 <crc> on my ipad, the blocks don't load; I'll try to look at that later.
19:21:24 <crc> might be working now; had a misnamed directory of files
19:29:30 <tabemann> viewing the GPL with it is broken
19:29:54 <tabemann> at least under firefox
19:31:37 <tabemann> I'm impressed though that someone got a rather complete forth working in js
19:31:41 <crc> hmm, I don't have the help files
19:34:15 <crc> I think the original had an extra iframe for documentation, but I may have removed that as I didn't have a saved set 
19:35:01 * crc hasn't done much with this as it's GPL'd code
19:36:55 * tabemann doesn't really get the whole GPL-is-evil thing; unless you're actually reusing GPLed code, it's not like it's going to infect your code just because you saw it
19:37:49 * tabemann uses BSD3 just because he wants the widest possible range of projects to reuse his code, not because he's opposed to the GPL per se
19:38:42 <dave0> i don't like the gpl because i think it uses ambiguous "free" intentionally, and goes on saying it's "free"er than everything else, which is bull
19:38:59 <dave0> public domain is truly free
19:39:30 <tabemann> public domain means that someone can reuse your code without crediting you, and can go back and claim that the code was theirs to begin with
19:39:45 <tabemann> also some countries don't recognize public domain in the first place, such as germany
19:39:47 <crc> dave0: public domain isn't always possible (e.g., under german copyright law)
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19:40:51 <dave0> thwarted by ze germans!
19:41:01 <crc> I use ISC license for most things, also BSD or MIT.
19:41:31 <tabemann> note that GPL isn't ambiguous when it uses "free" - it specifically means free as in freedom, not free as in price
19:41:50 <zy]x[yz> gpl is not free as in freedom
19:41:53 <dave0> that's what it says but i think it's bull
19:42:11 <crc> I'll use things that are GPL'd, but won't do much with the code to avoid any possible issues with my future projects.
19:42:35 <dave0> j random user doesn't hear freedom, he hears "doesn't cost any money"
19:43:23 <dave0> no one would care if it said "liberty"
19:43:50 <tabemann> somehow that didn't stop red hat from selling enough software for ibm to consider them worth buying
19:44:10 <PoppaVic> <shrug> Many of us had decades of "shareware" and (even more) PD/freeware. Suffering a GPL is like getting surgery you don't need.
19:44:28 <corecode> who is suffering?
19:44:36 * tabemann remembers shareware from his mac days back when
19:45:45 * tabemann used to license his code under the LGPL until he started coding in Haskell, as the LGPL is not very compatible with Haskell's compilation/linking model
19:46:17 <tabemann> (because the LGPL assumes dynamic linking, whereas Haskell is basically always statically linked)
19:46:26 <dave0> some of my old code doesn't have any license at all
19:47:12 <crc> dave0: no license means you reserve all rights to it :)
19:47:16 <corecode> tabemann: i still don't think that LGPL only refers to shared objects
19:47:25 <dave0> i ignored copyright all together... but that was probably a mistake, cos nowdays i prefer public domain
19:47:28 <corecode> a.out binaries used to be statically linked
19:47:36 <corecode> and LGPL is from a.out days
19:48:15 <crc> GPL would be problematic with an image based system like mine.
19:48:34 <corecode> why?
19:49:09 <dave0> stallman thinks statically linked means a derivative work... but i don't think it's been actually tested in court
19:49:13 <tabemann> are you sure? the reason why Haskell programmers typically license their code under BSD2/3 or MIT is specifically because GHC combines all the code into one binary, and actually may do all kinds of code transformations upon code linked in
19:49:38 <corecode> dave0: do you have a link?
19:49:52 <crc> corecode: everything in the image is statically linked together. If the image is GPL, and you build and distribute an extended one with your application, you'd need to distribute your code as GPL as well.
19:50:02 <corecode> why?
19:50:15 <dave0> corecode: i think i read it in the GPL faq
19:50:48 <tabemann> with the GPL at least everything linking in the code must also be GPL
19:50:58 <PoppaVic> corecode: hence "viral"
19:50:58 <corecode> isn't that like saying "a file system is an image of linked binaries. if one contained binary is covered under GPL, all sources for all binaries need to be licensed under GPL."
19:51:02 <corecode> makes no sense
19:51:20 <tabemann> LGPL relaxes that so that dynamically linking in LGPLed code does not put any restrictions upon the licensing of the linking code
19:53:00 <tabemann> obviously I've never heard anyone argue that a whole filesystem is equivalent to a single self-contained binary
19:53:10 <corecode> i can't find a reference to dynamic linking
19:53:23 <rdrop-exit> GPL is just confusing, too many strings attached. I don't want to bother with it.
19:55:29 <corecode> actually there is one
19:55:41 <corecode> you need to provide a way to modify the LGPL library
19:55:58 <corecode> either via shared objects (simple), or via object files you can re-link
19:56:14 <corecode> fair enough
19:56:17 <dave0> corecode: wikipedia has a bit on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License#Linking_and_derived_works
19:57:14 <corecode> that's GPL, not LGPL
19:57:20 <tabemann> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Lesser_General_Public_License
19:57:53 <dave0> oh
19:58:06 <tabemann> that says that to use LGPLed code, either you need to dynamically link it, or you need to provide object files or source code to the library
19:59:15 <rdrop-exit> A good reason not to bother with it.
19:59:43 <corecode> the library source needs to be provided in any case
19:59:53 <tabemann> no
20:00:00 <corecode> ofc, it's LGPL
20:00:13 <corecode> that's the whole point
20:00:35 <tabemann> with the LGPL, you don't need to provide a library source provided you are either dynamically linking or you're providing separate static library code
20:01:19 <corecode> no
20:01:24 * PoppaVic sighs
20:01:48 <rdrop-exit> Confusion reigns, just avoid it
20:02:02 <corecode> if the library is lgpl licensed, then your app can stay proprietary, but ofc the library stays lgpl
20:02:11 <tabemann> yes
20:02:28 <corecode> i license everything as AGPL3
20:02:59 <pointfree> +1
20:03:13 <corecode> i like being able to modify the source of software/firmware i use
20:03:23 <corecode> i want more of that
20:04:41 <tabemann> I use BSD and used to use LGPL because I want to enable others to use my code without them having to worry about the whole viral license thing; I use BSD3 rather than BSD2 so that someone can't say I endorse their program without my permission
20:05:03 <rdrop-exit> +1
20:05:19 <pointfree> I refer to non-copyleft licenses as "restrictable licenses"
20:07:55 <tabemann> there is an advantage to the GPL though - it does encourage others to contribute to your project rather than forking it off and locking it up under non-free licenses - look at Linux for instance - it probably would not be as successful were it not GPLv2 - whereas look at FreeBSD - it essentially got copied by Apple without Apple contributing back to FreeBSD
20:09:24 <crc> I prefer not to use a license that's larger than most of my source files. I can fit ISC into less than a block; GPLv3 is huge by comparison (which would consume around 34-42 blocks, depending on how it was formatted)
20:09:45 <rdrop-exit> My philosophy is I either sell you my code, or I give you my code.
20:10:48 <tabemann> the code I work on on my own is free, whereas the code I am paid for is proprietary
20:11:00 <tabemann> and by free I mean both in freedom and in price
20:11:11 <Kumool> tabemann: that is propaganda, GPL is unnecessary, you can look at plenty of projects with permissive licensing in which nobody has gone off and forked the code, once the project reaches a certain status then the project itself is viral
20:12:04 <tabemann> except that's exactly what happened with BSD and Apple
20:12:13 <Kumool> people don't go around and fork the code willy nilly, you can find plenty of forks out there, but if you want linux, and you want to be sure there isnt any additional "features" going on, you're gonna go with linus's repo
20:13:48 <Kumool> tabemann: if apple would have wanted they would've made an entire unix like OS
20:14:44 <Kumool> the code was around and they used it, but because they used it, they probably had to hire developers probably familiar with the codebase and its tools
20:15:26 <PoppaVic> since apple is ditching osX for iOS anyway <shrug> Dead end. Game over.
20:15:59 <tabemann> let me know when your macbook pro runs iOS
20:16:24 <crc> tabemann: what parts of Apple's fork of the FreeBSD userland would you want them to contribute back?
20:17:45 <tabemann> crc: I am not sufficiently familiar to identify particular parts, but it'd be nice if Macs actually ran FreeBSD - if they did, I might consider buying one
20:18:16 <crc> The kernel bits would be difficult as macOS/iOS use XNU, a microkernel derived from Mach. I think a large portion of the userland are available at https://opensource.apple.com/
20:18:50 <crc> PoppaVic: macOS and iOS share a lot, other than the UI frameworks
20:19:18 <tabemann> crc: that's what I heard too
20:19:58 <tabemann> which is why PoppaVic's comment got me, because I knew that under the surface macOS and iOS really differed primarily in the user-visible parts
20:20:11 <PoppaVic> crc: all I know is: 1) I ain't ever going there; 2) the iPad sucks w/o usb; 3) longtime Apple folks are looking at End Of Life computers.
20:20:12 <crc> I develop for macOS and iOS; there's a lot of common stuff. 
20:20:42 <tabemann> and why would one put iOS on a macbook (pro/air), because that would defeat much of the point of why one would buy a macbook (pro/air)
20:21:20 <tabemann> iOS is mainly good for phones and entertainment devices, and is not really suitable for machines for getting actual work done
20:21:35 <crc> The macOS UI framework (AppKit) is harder to work with than UIKit, but all of the non-UI stuff can be done pretty much identically on both.
20:22:01 <crc> I use an iPad & an OpenBSD server as my primary computer
20:23:28 <tabemann> both of my computers run Debian Linux, and I've got an Android phone and two (one nearly dead) Android tablets
20:24:57 <crc> I stopped using Linux on all but one server now. I have a MacBook, but only use it to update the iOS and macOS apps I have a few times a year.
20:26:18 <Kumool> it seems you can install fbsd on a mac though https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/can-mac-os-x-be-removed-and-completely-replaced-by-freebsd.69225/ https://github.com/NapoleonWils0n/cerberus/blob/master/freebsd/freebsd-macbook.md
20:26:25 <crc> I don't use Android much; I have a modified Kindle Fire running a shell and stock launcher. I find that frustrating to use though, and *hate* being stuck with Java for developing for it.
20:26:40 <Kumool> the only troubling thing is uefi
20:27:54 <Kumool> I wouldn't get rid of macos though, I've been fighting for some hw accel on linux and browsers seem to be dropping support
20:27:56 <tabemann> I remember coding for Android at a previous job
20:28:04 <tabemann> most un-fun coding I've ever done
20:28:12 <tabemann> I fucking hate programming for Android
20:28:36 <tabemann> and it's not the Java itself - Java is a mediocre language for mediocre people that I'm willing to tolerate
20:28:48 <tabemann> but the Android APIs and execution model are excruciating to work with
20:29:43 <tabemann> (I program in Java a lot right now for work, and what I'm doing now is a breeze compared to what I was doing on Android)
20:32:38 <tabemann> oh and get this
20:32:57 <tabemann> Java puts a limit on the number of methods that can be in a single object code file
20:33:04 <tabemann> s/Java/Android
20:33:21 <tabemann> when you're including a lot of dependencies, this limit turns out to be astonishingly low
20:33:28 <crc> I remember reading about that
20:33:40 <tabemann> so to get your code to work you have to do a lot of shit like stripping out unused methods and whatnot
20:34:01 <crc> I'm unlikely to hit it in the apps I write, but can see how it'd be a problem in larger apps.
20:34:33 <tabemann> apparently Google decided that instead of fixing this issue they'd rather allow the user to split their program into multiple object code files
20:34:41 <tabemann> but that brings its own set of problems
20:36:30 <crc> I'm is pretty happy with iOS on an iPad. The accessibility stuff works pretty well, the development related apps are good in spite of sandbox limitations, and the hardware (excepting the latest iPad Pro, which I've not used) is pretty solid.
20:37:55 <tabemann> apparently Facebook has come up with APIs that greatly simplify programming for Android
20:38:00 <crc> I just need to find a good keyboard now to help with RSI issues.
20:39:35 <tabemann> but yeah
20:39:54 <tabemann> the whole "multiple object code file" thing reminds of CHAIN when programming in BASIC on the Apple //e
20:40:07 <crc> tabemann: I don't know that I'd want to use any API's from Facebook.
20:40:15 <tabemann> crc: same here
20:40:29 <tabemann> I don't trust Facebook, even though I have a Facebook account - which I practically never use
20:40:47 <tabemann> Facebook probably uses their API to collect data behind the scenes
20:40:50 <crc> Same
20:41:09 <tabemann> (my Facebook account exists mainly to reserve one under my name)
20:41:53 <rdrop-exit> I haven't logged in to FB in a couple of years I think, even forgot the password.
20:41:58 <crc> mine is to access a few shared photos from extended family who don't use anything else
20:42:22 <rdrop-exit> Too much of a time sucker.
20:43:02 <tabemann> I trust Apple more than Facebook or Google - at least Apple is up-front about what they want (your money, from you buying products from them), rather than Facebook or Google (who want your data, and who will use it for who knows what)
20:43:33 <tabemann> unfortunately Apple charges way too much for their hardware, which is why I don't own any
20:44:57 <tabemann> (yes I spent a bundle on this laptop, but I'm not going to spent a fuckload on a phone, which will probably get dropped who knows how many times)
20:45:02 <tabemann> *spend
20:45:09 <crc> tabemann: the one plus to Apple is that they tend to support products for a reasonible number of years.
20:46:27 <rdrop-exit> The only time I use a laptop is on a long trip, give it to my kids after.
20:47:12 <crc> I upgrade the iPad every few years. The phone can wait longer. I upgraded that this year; I should be able to go 4-5 years before I need to upgrade it.
20:48:41 <rdrop-exit> I don't even own a smartphone, myphone battery lasts months.
20:49:08 <crc> (Based on my math, the phone & ipad cost me around $1.86/day, over a four year period for the phone and two years on the ipad)
20:50:01 <crc> I use the phone almost entirely for work. At the end of the day it gets left on my desk not to be messed with until the next morning.
20:50:02 <tabemann> I use a laptop for most things these days, except for phone calls, reading email and text messages, and occasionally using the web, for which I use my phone
20:52:02 <tabemann> I don't really use my tower anymore, since my laptop is better-specced than it and uses less electricity while being infinitely more mobile
20:59:31 <rdrop-exit> Battery lasts 143 days: https://www.philips.com.ph/c-p/CTE181BK_71/xenium-mobile-phone
20:59:37 <crc> I sometimes miss using a laptop. (I find them frustrating to use now though, since I can't use the built in keyboard)
21:01:08 <rdrop-exit> I hate laptop keyboards, got really used to my Pok3r.
21:01:35 <Croran> i'm surprised by how many people seem satisfied with laptop keyboard and 13-15" screen
21:01:41 <Croran> especially in such a non-ergonomic position
21:01:51 <Croran> not to mention touchpad
21:02:04 <crc> I'm pretty much stuck with looking for ergonomic keyboards. I can't type on conventional keyboards for any length of time without pain :(
21:02:22 <rdrop-exit> I feel for you crc
21:02:31 <Croran> i'm sure all these laptop users will be like that when they get older.
21:03:55 <crc> Croran: I've had severe RSI issues since my late teens, they've just become very bad (again) in the last year
21:04:25 <Croran> crc: i have pain too, have to wear a brace for a few days when it spikes
21:04:50 <Croran> crc: sounds like yours is more intense though
21:05:41 <crc> I wear braces as much as possible during the day. Makes typing difficult though, and I tend to get swollen wrists/hands after a few hours. 
21:05:56 <Croran> I've found a supplement that helps.
21:06:17 <Croran> UC-II
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21:09:36 <crc> I'll check it out, thanks 
21:09:36 <Croran> i hope it helps you. was noticeable for me.
21:17:42 <Kumool> would be nice if you got a text2speech thing
21:17:56 <Kumool> speech2text
21:19:23 <Kumool> and the proglang was maybe syllable based or something like that
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22:02:36 <PoppaVic> "colon oh-shit damn-damn stop!stop! offdammit..."
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23:57:58 <dave0> re
23:58:08 <rdrop-exit> Hi Dave0
23:58:29 <dave0> hi rdrop-exit 
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