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00:47:14 <proteusguy> hahahaha
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00:49:31 <proteusguy> siraben, the last one is quite fitting for you, eh? ;-)
01:12:26 <WilhelmVonWeiner> morning forth squad
01:19:34 <presiden> morning forthniter
01:23:07 <rdrop-exit> Good afternoon Forthwrights
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02:18:03 <siraben> proteusguy: No doubt.
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02:46:14 <proteusguy> 5:45p here WilhelmVonWeiner but I'm sure it's morning somewhere. :-)
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03:07:00 <`presiden> so, what you need to implement first so that you can have loop, while, etc. in pure forth?
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03:09:02 <rdrop-exit>  The primitives that those words lay down, most commonly one or more conditional branches and an unconditional branch.
03:11:35 <rdrop-exit> You can also have more specialized primitives for the looping words, depends on the Forth.
03:13:05 <rdrop-exit> Basically words control flow words like while, loop, if, etc... are compiler directives that lay down runtime actions.
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04:03:23 <Zarutian> : ?: ( altern conseq cond -- conseq | altern ) SKZ SWAP DROP ;
04:03:44 <Zarutian> : BRZ R> DUP @ SWAP 1+ ROT ?: >R ;
04:04:15 <Zarutian> : JMP R> @ >R ;
04:07:31 <Zarutian> : IF COMPILE BRZ HERE 0 , ; IMMEDIATE
04:08:32 <Zarutian> and so Forth
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04:27:01 <corecode> `presiden: the ANS FORTH standard has a section on primitives to build flow control
04:27:25 <corecode> BEGIN AHEAD AGAIN etc
04:27:42 <corecode> it's a nice formalism that works well
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04:52:51 <rdrop-exit> `presiden: Usually the control flow primitives are in the assembly language of the processor rather than in high level code.
04:53:30 <rdrop-exit> The directives that lay them down though are in high level code.
04:55:43 <smokeink> `presiden: https://github.com/nornagon/jonesforth/blob/master/jonesforth.S 
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07:16:28 <WilhelmVonWeiner> just got a job with some ITSP (voip telco)
07:16:51 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Boss, old school hacker type, hadnt even heard of Forth
07:17:17 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Said it sounded pretty low level and I'm there going "yeah, but no, but yeah, but no" 
07:17:17 <zy]x[yz> my boss has never heard of forth either
07:17:40 <zy]x[yz> and he loves blabbing on and on about the days before c
07:20:25 <WilhelmVonWeiner> tell him to put a sock in it grandpa
07:20:42 <WilhelmVonWeiner> we're using parametric polymorphism over here mate
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07:51:31 <zy]x[yz> he also really knows his stuff but god he writes terrible code
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08:33:02 <john_cephalopoda> Hey
08:41:53 <john_cephalopoda> Hmm, how do I best do stuff with the stack in reverse order? Is there some clever way to get ( n0 n1 n2 n3 ... ni ) and get them out with n0 first?
08:51:06 <WilhelmVonWeiner> DEPTH 0 DO >R LOOP 
08:51:53 <WilhelmVonWeiner> -1 PICK? I think PICK works like that in some systems
09:22:37 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: I thought about using >R, but then I'll have to get all those elements back again from the return stack.
09:24:46 <WilhelmVonWeiner> you can always store your main routine's return address in a variable, reset the return stack to clear it, and push the main routine
09:25:17 <WilhelmVonWeiner> but it sounds like if you're not going to use all these elements, are you sure you need to do what you're doing
09:25:33 <WilhelmVonWeiner> you could also use a word like Retro's `dip`
09:26:16 <WilhelmVonWeiner> something like `: DIP: ( <name> --) >R ' execute R> ;`
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09:26:48 <WilhelmVonWeiner> so a call to DEPTH in a DIPped word would be accurate relative to how much you dip
09:27:02 <WilhelmVonWeiner> and when they return your rstack is cleared 
09:27:58 <john_cephalopoda> Maybe I should just write a forth to assembly compiler in forth...
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09:29:11 <WilhelmVonWeiner> what is the problem you're trying to solve
09:29:25 <john_cephalopoda> Situation is: I am writing a compiler that compiles forth to bytecode. I got something like "23 43 SWAP 32 22 DUP" and want to generate bytecode from that.
09:30:31 <john_cephalopoda> SWAP will be defined, so it writes "CALL SWAP" to the bytecode. DUP likewise.
09:30:47 <john_cephalopoda> Wait, I'll give you some code...
09:30:58 <WilhelmVonWeiner> check out cmForth, chuck's Forth compiler for the Novix
09:31:13 <WilhelmVonWeiner> or krue's `avr` http://krue.net/avr/
09:31:59 <john_cephalopoda> https://bpaste.net/show/86e56e1face2
09:33:36 <john_cephalopoda> Hrm, hard to explain...
09:34:26 <WilhelmVonWeiner> define SWAP to write SWAP's machine code to stdout, doing bitwise manipulations with stack items as needed
09:35:31 <john_cephalopoda> I defined SWAP to write "CALL SWAP" (in machine code) to my file.
09:36:05 <john_cephalopoda> The problem is: How do I handle "23"? How do I make sure that that one actually lands on the stack?
09:36:44 <john_cephalopoda> Maybe I should just write a Forth compiler in Forthified assembly and keep the code in memory...
09:37:08 <crc> john_cephalopoda: this is gforth specific, but try:  : reverse-stack here >r depth dup >r 0 do , loop r> r@ swap 0 do dup i cells + @ swap loop drop r> dp ! ;
09:37:53 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Chuck uses { and } in cmForth to switch between the host and target dictionary with cmForth, when compiling
09:38:46 <WilhelmVonWeiner> in a similar sense, you could define a word to make the interpreter take numbers and write the bytecode to push that number on your chip
09:49:53 <john_cephalopoda> Yeah... I think I'll just ship a tiny core written in assembly and in-memory plaintext Forth that I compile at boot time.
09:50:12 <john_cephalopoda> crc: Thanks
09:51:36 <crc> I used to do that in retro (asm core & compile most source on startup)
09:52:20 <john_cephalopoda> Mmh. Probably the most elegant solution.
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11:14:33 <dave0> ahoy
11:17:17 <john_cephalopoda> Hi dave
11:18:07 <dave0> hi john_cephalopoda 
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11:35:46 <WilhelmVonWeiner> hey dave
11:35:48 <WilhelmVonWeiner> what's good
11:36:45 <dave0> hi WilhelmVonWeiner 
11:37:17 <dave0> just looking over lbForth source code
11:37:27 <WilhelmVonWeiner> that's a seriously well written Forth
11:37:52 <dave0> lbForth is?
11:41:08 <rain1> I'm thinking about parser generators in forth
11:41:12 <rain1> like if you wanted to parse C code
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11:45:46 <WilhelmVonWeiner> could use vocabs
11:46:05 <WilhelmVonWeiner> a c-parser vocab that can run on straight up c code
11:47:19 <rain1> what's that?
11:49:00 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: I doubt that this is doable with reasonable effort.
11:50:03 <john_cephalopoda> Not only because Forth is pretty bad at parsing, but also because C isn't a really good language for parsing.
11:50:06 <john_cephalopoda> Full of ambiguities.
11:50:25 <WilhelmVonWeiner> nobody ever said it would be easy
11:50:34 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Don't see how Forth is "bad at parsing" though
11:51:05 <john_cephalopoda> String handling in Forth is no fun.
11:51:46 <john_cephalopoda> Even creating a temporary string is a task that can't be easily accomplished.
11:53:15 <john_cephalopoda> Building RPN assembly compilers, on the other hand, is trivial :D
11:53:33 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I don't see your problem with temporary strings
11:53:39 <WilhelmVonWeiner> As in
11:53:56 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I can't at all grok what you mean by "can't easily be accomplished"
11:55:07 <WilhelmVonWeiner> you have an input buffer, you have the flat memory of cells
11:55:27 <WilhelmVonWeiner> you also have PAD
11:55:51 <john_cephalopoda> You'll have to hand-manage memory if you want to have a string only temporarily.
11:56:35 <dave0> i kinda like the <# # #> stuff to format numbers, it's pretty cool
11:56:48 <PoppaVic> there are "string libraries" for gforth and such - monstrous grotesques
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12:23:20 <crc> john_cephalopoda: or write something to handle temporary strings (e.g., I have a pool of memory for temporal strings, with the newest ones overwriting earlier ones as I rotate through it)
12:35:19 <the_cuckoo> well, i've written my first rpany application - it's a video editor 
12:37:06 <the_cuckoo> (command line and script file based, but basically all i wanted from it)
12:41:01 <rain1> where can i read a simple regex engine in forth?
12:48:08 <john_cephalopoda> crc: Hmm, S" but with a ringbuffer... might work.
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13:50:58 <WilhelmVonWeiner> the_cuckoo: very cool, link?
13:51:28 <WilhelmVonWeiner> rain1: http://excamera.com/files/docforth/docforth/regex.html
13:51:45 <rain1> thanks
13:51:57 <rain1> the download link doesnt work
13:52:40 <the_cuckoo> WilhelmVonWeiner: massive word of warning :) - the editor relies on a library which i haven't published recently :) - it's quite a big library of course :) - but the interface to it is simple, and this stuff is just the graph building at the moment...
13:53:23 <the_cuckoo> there is new version of it pending though - latest ffmpeg and cmake - maybe this week or next...
13:54:04 <the_cuckoo> https://gitlab.com/lilo_booter/vml-batch/blob/master/src/main.cpp <- this is the command line tool which parses and constructs video graphs
13:54:48 <WilhelmVonWeiner> http://excamera.com/files/docforth/docforth/regex.fth.html
13:54:51 <WilhelmVonWeiner> rain1: 
13:55:04 <rain1> aha!
13:55:09 <the_cuckoo> i can provide usage docs based on the old tool which this replaces - http://vml.hopto.org/pug/~charlie/docs/aml.html - usage will just be better though
13:55:17 <WilhelmVonWeiner> the_cuckoo: I shan't build it but I shall read your source
13:55:56 <corecode> what's rpany
13:55:58 <the_cuckoo> yup - figured that would be more to your interest - obviously, there's a massive leap in the dark  
13:56:32 <the_cuckoo> corecode: my pet project - a c++ header file library which provides a forth-like environment
13:56:42 <corecode> haha
13:56:49 <the_cuckoo> rpn and boost::any :)
13:57:04 <WilhelmVonWeiner> oh so you use a library to do the actual editing, you're not editing the files with a program written in rpany?
13:57:49 <the_cuckoo> yes - i have a fairly comprehensive library to use - all i want is a flexible tool to allow me to construct and play and encode graphs
13:58:04 <the_cuckoo> i have one - but it's fugly :)
13:58:36 <the_cuckoo> vmlbatch is a replacement for that
13:59:20 <the_cuckoo> with this approach, i get scripting for free - and a bloody rpn calculator when i need one :D
14:00:00 <WilhelmVonWeiner> posix dc is also an rpn calculator
14:00:32 <the_cuckoo> corecode: sorry - url is https://gitlab.com/lilo_booter/rpany
14:00:41 <the_cuckoo> WilhelmVonWeiner: yeah :) - i hate it
14:01:25 <the_cuckoo> and with this approach, where i need it is both in the c++ code and outside
14:01:48 <the_cuckoo> or rather, where i have it
14:03:50 <corecode> i'll avoid the template madness, thanks
14:04:16 <the_cuckoo> me too :D
14:08:05 <the_cuckoo> kidding - i have some in there, but it's mostly for casting as stuff comes of the stack (and some vocabs use them to save on the boilerplate) - but this is of course for c++ coders
14:08:49 <the_cuckoo> not expecting much interest here, but i find there's a lot of overlap in the conversation
15:47:38 <rain1> https://bernd-paysan.de/dragon/
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15:57:19 <john_cephalopoda> Oh, wow http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/bnfparse.htm
15:57:45 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Look up "one screen of forth" somewhere on Brad's site
15:57:50 <WilhelmVonWeiner> or maybe Bernd's 
15:58:00 <WilhelmVonWeiner> this is one of the examples, really cool stuff
15:58:24 <john_cephalopoda> I know, I found it via that :D
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16:21:53 <corecode> so now i just need to implement memory access, then the forth cpu is sort of complete
16:22:17 <corecode> i think next would be a 8 bit forth
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17:15:47 <`presiden> corecode, ah, nice
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17:16:23 <`presiden> smokeink, thanks for the link. really helps
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19:02:33 <rdrop-exit> Good morning Forthwrights :)
19:03:40 <crc> Good evening rdrop-exit 
19:06:12 <rdrop-exit> Hi crc
19:07:26 <rdrop-exit> I was going to check the channel's log to see what I've missed, but the site seems to be down.
19:07:45 <corecode> yey, memory works as well
19:07:51 <corecode> cpu done!
19:09:25 <crc> I have a mirror of the logs, but it's not been able to sync for a few hours
19:09:33 <crc> http://forthworks.com/forth/irc-logs
19:09:46 <rdrop-exit> Thanks
19:10:10 <corecode> that TOS input mux is crazy large tho
19:13:10 <rdrop-exit> Catching up on the logs, bbiab
19:14:05 <crc> rdrop-exit: I was just able to manually run the sync, so the log should be current now
19:15:35 <rdrop-exit> Thank you very much crc, I'm all caught up now. :)
19:17:57 <rdrop-exit> Although I'm sure I've missed a lot over the past weeks, I need to get in the habit of catching up before logging in.
19:39:40 <proteusguy> re: forth & parsing. it can be credibly argued that forth is poor at parsing. but that's missing the point. forth is an excellent language for building a small DSL that is great at parsing! all good forth programs are small DSLs.
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19:41:21 <rdrop-exit> Agree, Forth proves that sophisticated parsing techniques are not required to make a DSL.
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19:42:18 <rdrop-exit> Those who implement sophisticated parsing on top of Forth don't get the point.
19:45:25 <tabemann> hey guys
19:45:38 <rdrop-exit> Hi tabemann
19:45:45 <Kumool> if sophisticated parsing techniques are not required, can you point to a forth with a regex enegine?
19:45:49 <tabemann> for attoforth I just had to implement a whole readline-style line editor
19:46:11 <corecode> isn't regex sophisticated?
19:46:26 <rdrop-exit> There are many regex implementations for Forth, but that's besides the point
19:47:12 <tabemann> and there are better ways of doing things than regexes
19:47:18 <proteusguy> some people, when they see a parsing problem say "I can solve that with a regex!". Now they have two problems. :-D
19:47:26 <tabemann> look at parsec/attoparsec/megaparsec in haskell
19:47:28 <rdrop-exit> Just read an interesting porblem on clf, sorting the top 4 items on the stack.
19:48:04 * tabemann loves that quote
19:48:35 <rdrop-exit> Although, I don't see why I'd ever need to sort 4 items on the stack.
19:49:20 <rdrop-exit> I think this would work, will test it later:
19:49:24 <tabemann> sorting items on the stack is easy - write them to an array, apply quicksort to that array, read the contents of the array onto the stack
19:49:28 <rdrop-exit> : sort4 ( n1 n2 n3 n4 -- lowest lower high highest )
19:49:29 <rdrop-exit>   pivot  push pivot  push pivot  pop pivot  pop pivot ;
19:50:10 <rdrop-exit> Anyway, I doubt I would ever have a practical need for it.
19:50:58 <proteusguy> Here's a live coding example of text parsing in forth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvrE2ZGe-rs&t=9s
19:53:23 <rdrop-exit> Long video, will watch it another day.
19:57:40 * crc is doing tests on the last piece needed to be able to compile a new image file using an existing retro image, rather than needing external tools
19:58:13 <rdrop-exit> You mean a metacompiler?
19:58:31 <crc> essentially, yes
19:59:00 <rdrop-exit> Cool, every decent Forth should have a metacompiler.
19:59:06 <PoppaVic> crc is tired of writing asm ;-)
19:59:11 <crc> two parts: an assembler for building the initial kernel, then a second piece that compiles in the standard library
20:00:02 <crc> PoppaVic: not really. My kernel remains in assembler, for my VM instruction set, and I have a tiny runtime assembler for manual optimizations
20:01:10 <PoppaVic> crc: I was kidding, since I know you don't much care for C or asm outside forth. Although, i4 really hated it ;-)
20:01:19 <rdrop-exit> The standard has really de-emphasized metacompilation, cross-compilation, and multitasking as essential features of a Forth system in newbie's mind.
20:01:40 <rdrop-exit> * newbies' minds
20:01:45 <PoppaVic> Can't say as I blame anyone, as I find the damned linker-jive to be hair-pulling
20:01:55 <rdrop-exit> They just see Forth as another language to be parsed.
20:02:20 <PoppaVic> I don't much care for metacompiling - always crosses my damned eyes.
20:03:14 <rdrop-exit> :)
20:04:17 <rdrop-exit> I noticed there's a bigt fight on Wikipedia about Forth and Metacompilation
20:04:33 <PoppaVic> still? yet? again? now what?
20:04:53 <rdrop-exit> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Metacompilation
20:05:16 <rdrop-exit> Hey it's gone
20:05:54 <rdrop-exit> Ah found it:
20:05:56 <rdrop-exit> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Compiler-compiler
20:07:10 <PoppaVic> good - cuz what I was seeing made no sense ;-)
20:08:39 <rdrop-exit> Actually I'm not even sure that was it, I have it archived somewhere on disk, lots of vitriol.
20:10:20 <PoppaVic> Yeah. I am not seeing much of that - mostly just nitpicking terms
20:18:08 <rdrop-exit> Here it is:
20:18:10 <rdrop-exit> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Metacompiler&oldid=835211456
20:18:24 <tabemann> I plan on making hashforth be self-hosting in the near future
20:18:49 <rdrop-exit> "Damon I am very sorry to inform you that forth is dead. Quit digging forth references up. Leave them buried."
20:19:30 <rdrop-exit> "I am most interested in getting rid of this ignorant idea that a meta compiler must compile it's self. It is unfounded in real computer science literature. FORTH is a dead fringe language. Bury it where the sun don't shine!! The only legit definition of metacompiler in the ACM archive is from 1970 given above. That is the first and only definition in ACM publications. Do you not recognize the ACM?"
20:20:38 <rdrop-exit> This guy really hates Forth :))
20:21:34 <PoppaVic> haters bleed nice.
20:21:50 <rdrop-exit> Need coffee brb
20:29:02 <rdrop-exit> back
20:57:07 <tabemann> dammit why am I getting a bad file descriptor error
20:57:31 <tabemann> OPEN is returning a file descriptor of 3, which is what is expected
20:57:52 <tabemann> but when I try to read from it, it gives me "Bad file descriptor"
20:59:21 <rdrop-exit> Is it open for reading?
20:59:50 <PoppaVic> type of open, I'd suspect
20:59:56 <rdrop-exit> EBADF fd is not a valid file descriptor or is not open for reading.
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21:02:17 <rdrop-exit> POSIX read(): http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/
21:03:02 <rdrop-exit> [EBADF] The fildes argument is not a valid file descriptor open for reading.
21:05:12 <rdrop-exit> bbiab
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21:24:53 <proteusguy> Anyone notice that bespin.org (which logs this channel) is down?
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21:42:59 <tabemann> finally - fixed those damn bugs
21:43:27 <dave0> ah the mythical "last bug"
21:43:37 <dave0> :-)
21:43:40 <tabemann> lol
21:44:02 <tabemann> well now I can load source files from the REPL without having hashforth crash
21:48:09 <crc> proteusguy: I have a mirror at http://forthworks.com/forth/irc-logs (should update about once an hour)
21:54:50 <proteusguy> crc, thanx - something you wrote in forth or just a tool you deployed? ;-)
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21:56:35 <crc> proteusguy: rsync to the grab the actual files, some python to generate the gophermap, and a gopher/http server in forth
21:57:19 <crc> I'll hopefully replace the python bits with forth code later this year
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22:08:09 <proteusguy> :-) where are you rsync'ing from?
22:11:29 <rdrop-exit> proteusguy: I've been having the same problem with the logs since yesterday
22:27:17 <proteusguy> who runs bespin do we know?
22:27:32 <rdrop-exit> I don't
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.01.29