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01:31:03 <corecode> hi
01:31:18 <corecode> i think i'm getting to a point that i can start implementing my forth cpu
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07:56:21 <proteusguy> corecode, awesome about the forth cpu! what's your target device?
08:00:24 <WilhelmVonWeiner> the human brain
08:00:27 <WilhelmVonWeiner> play, and play
08:00:30 <WilhelmVonWeiner> total control
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08:32:45 <corecode> proteusguy: ice40ul for now
08:33:34 <proteusguy> corecode, great! gonna use symbflow or other open source tools?
08:33:44 <corecode> no, the ul isn't supported yet
08:34:00 <proteusguy> oh... what's special about the ul?
08:34:09 <corecode> no idea, nothing probably
08:36:19 <proteusguy> I got several of these hopefully showing up in June https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/fomu
08:37:38 <corecode> meh
08:37:40 <Croran> That looks cool. How does it compare to the popular Cyclone IV boards?
08:37:51 <corecode> bit expensive for a fpga board
08:37:57 <proteusguy> Croran, obviously not nearly as much i/o! :-)
08:37:59 <corecode> and bit small to be useful
08:38:17 <proteusguy> But it's entirely programmable via open source tools. I don't have to boot into Windows to program the damn thing.
08:38:26 <Croran> nice.
08:38:30 <corecode> i don't have to use windows either :)
08:39:37 <proteusguy> corecode, what's the concept for your cpu?
08:41:53 <corecode> what do you mean, concept
08:42:32 <corecode> how does this fomu do python?
08:43:47 <proteusguy> it's micropython - a very small implementation. companies like Adafruit use it.
08:44:13 <corecode> and how does it do python?
08:44:38 <corecode> on a softcore?
08:45:03 <proteusguy> ...cause it's a small interpreter and minimalist implementation. it's been ported to a lot of SOCs and cpus.
08:45:31 <proteusguy> concept == architectural drivers that determine the characteristics of your design. 
08:46:03 <proteusguy> https://micropython.org
08:46:08 <corecode> i can't see how this fomu works
08:46:11 <corecode> no schematics
08:46:28 <corecode> no design overview
08:46:43 <corecode> does it run a riscv cpu on the fpga?
08:46:54 <proteusguy> it's a softcore riscv
08:47:03 <corecode> and that runs the micropython?
08:47:08 <proteusguy> yep
08:47:21 <corecode> what's the point tho?
08:47:30 <WilhelmVonWeiner> to run Python on RISC-V
08:47:34 <WilhelmVonWeiner> that's the point
08:47:47 <corecode> but it's micropython
08:48:02 <proteusguy> corecode, seriously??? you're in a forth channel and your asking "what's the point" regarding a cool technical achievement???
08:48:24 <corecode> doesn't look like anything new tho
08:48:54 <proteusguy> corecode, technology really shouldn't be your career path then, my friend!
08:49:02 <WilhelmVonWeiner> proteusguy: Chuck would probably ask "what's the point" unless the Python is doing something
08:49:05 <corecode> what's new about it?
08:49:24 <corecode> the fact that it is smaller than an existing board?
08:50:24 <proteusguy> WilhelmVonWeiner, Chuck's got the history & chops to have earned his curmudgeon badge. :-) But I think he'd find it an interesting way to introduce brand new users to SOC coding for small devices like IoT.
08:50:34 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Oh I bet.
08:50:54 <WilhelmVonWeiner> How do we get IRC running on a GA144 so we can get Chuck in here 
08:51:11 * proteusguy is working on that... ;-)
08:51:30 <corecode> i'll bet that 80% of all FOMU boards will never be used, or tried to be used and given up on within less than 10h
08:51:33 <WilhelmVonWeiner> intermittently, i'd feel on edge in the presence of greatness if he was here 24/7
08:51:59 <WilhelmVonWeiner> corecode: I feel that way about most of them too
08:52:14 <WilhelmVonWeiner> run some C program on it, "wow cool", put it in a drawer
08:52:21 <corecode> yes
08:52:26 <proteusguy> corecode, you know that's true of all such boards. but what do you figure will get the most usage? those boards or your forth cpu?
08:52:36 <corecode> my forth cpu
08:52:46 <WilhelmVonWeiner> implement the cpu on these boards and it'll get more usage
08:53:07 <corecode> what's the point of the small formfactor tho?
08:53:16 <proteusguy> corecode, I'd love for you to be right. but if I had to place money I wouldn't bet on you...
08:53:17 * Zarutian mulls about super/ultra-caps from chorundium and alnumium grown from litographied crystal seed
08:53:18 <WilhelmVonWeiner> because it's cool as hell
08:53:20 <corecode> it's like they're trying to make it stupid to use
08:53:27 <proteusguy> WilhelmVonWeiner gets it.
08:53:33 <corecode> what is cool?
08:53:38 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I keep an OS inside my mouse
08:53:40 <proteusguy> not you clearly. haha
08:53:41 <corecode> that you need a pick to pull it out of a port?
08:53:46 <WilhelmVonWeiner> though I forgot the encryption key
08:53:55 <WilhelmVonWeiner> so it's just a cool, tiny USB stick inside my mouse
08:53:59 <WilhelmVonWeiner> should really format it
08:54:09 <proteusguy> how about a crypto wallet device that plugs into your usb?
08:54:30 <corecode> what about it
08:54:36 <WilhelmVonWeiner> cool as hell
08:54:37 <Zarutian> wait? this is an tiny usb stick with an fpga on it? SRAM based?
08:54:47 <WilhelmVonWeiner> and you can swallow it when some masked men kick your door in
08:54:53 <proteusguy> corecode, ok.... you're beyond hope my friend.... I do hope you get a forth cpu going, however.
08:54:55 <corecode> Zarutian: yea
08:54:59 <WilhelmVonWeiner> "FOMU? what FOMU?
08:55:11 <corecode> proteusguy: just because i don't agree with this silliness?
08:55:46 <proteusguy> corecode, lack of vision.
08:55:50 <corecode> what's the vision
08:55:55 <Zarutian> hmm... perhaps I could use it to make an Agoric Opaque Box.
08:55:57 <proteusguy> precisely
08:56:18 <corecode> can you explain it?
08:56:22 <Zarutian> that is if it is cheapish to get
08:56:44 <proteusguy> corecode, not to you apparently.
08:56:52 <corecode> well not if you don't try
08:57:08 * proteusguy doesn't do well with people wasting his time.
08:57:36 <corecode> to me it a) is too small, 2) has too few IOs, 3) inconvenient IOs
08:57:40 <corecode> ah
08:58:34 <corecode> yea i guess if you cannot explain your vision, i'm wasting your time
08:58:45 * Zarutian fucking hates when pages 'blur' images while the load in.
08:58:54 <WilhelmVonWeiner> interlacing innit
08:59:07 <WilhelmVonWeiner> deinterlacing?
08:59:13 <corecode> isn't it just a super small preview image?
08:59:18 <corecode> or even a fake preview image?
08:59:20 <WilhelmVonWeiner> either way just give me the bytes
08:59:23 <proteusguy> corecode, "The rules are simple: don't spam, don't troll, and speak english." 
08:59:25 <Zarutian> oh, it can fit inside an usb A port? nifty. I can think of all kinds of mischief I could get up to with this
09:00:31 <corecode> now, if it was that small that it could sit in an usb port and intercept the usb
09:00:32 <Zarutian> btw, USD one cent coins are enormous
09:05:15 <Zarutian> proteusguy: hmm... this thing looks like something to experiment on.
09:05:55 <Zarutian> WilhelmVonWeiner: not even that.
09:06:04 <corecode> or if you don't need the small form factor, you get get a ice40up devboard
09:06:13 <WilhelmVonWeiner> small form factor is always nice
09:06:31 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I will go out of my way for a smaller form factor a lot of the time
09:06:57 <corecode> for experimenting?
09:06:58 <proteusguy> Zarutian, it's an extremely accessible platform for getting your feet wet with fpgas.
09:07:13 <Zarutian> well it has a hole for a string so one doesnt lose it too easily
09:07:34 <corecode> haha
09:08:09 <WilhelmVonWeiner> corecode: for anything
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09:12:01 <proteusguy> This guy has a few cool projects as well. https://hackaday.io/project/13048-flea-ohm-fpga-project
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13:55:52 <PoppaVic> crc: interestingly.. the 16bit engine is really as cheap as the 32bit, but then the code goes gonzo at 64bit.
13:56:09 <PoppaVic> This is, of course, in the C examples.
13:56:48 <PoppaVic> I find that pretty... odd. Weird. Interesting.
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13:59:28 <PoppaVic> Mind you, my code - so far - is not dedicating any registers. Doing so really peeves gcc, but it works fine embedded
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14:33:09 <dave0> hi
15:12:27 <smokeink> hi
15:12:41 <dave0> hi smokeink 
15:16:00 <Zarutian> hi dave0
15:16:55 <dave0> hi Zarutian 
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16:27:24 <rdrop-exit> Top of the morning Forthwrights :)
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17:04:16 <Croran> Good afternoon rdrop-exit
17:04:42 <rdrop-exit> Likewise Croran
17:05:18 <Croran> Today I'm trying to figure out the difference between single precision and double precision in gforth.
17:06:05 <Croran> 9223372036854775807 can be stored as single or double precision with no issue.
17:06:05 <tabemann_> hey guys
17:06:14 <Croran> 9223372036854775808 goes into negatives whether stored as single or double.
17:06:25 <tabemann_> the difference is the binary format you store things in
17:06:51 <tabemann_> by default gforth uses native floats
17:07:03 <Croran> floats?
17:07:11 <Croran> i'm talking about single vs double integers
17:07:31 <tabemann_> oh you mean single cell and double cell
17:07:33 <rdrop-exit> What is the cell size of your forth
17:07:49 * tabemann_ is used to "single precision" and "double precision" referring to floating point numbers
17:08:09 <tabemann_> I'd really need to see some code before I could help you
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17:08:21 <rdrop-exit> The term is also use for single and double precision integers
17:08:33 <Croran> rdrop-exit: i can't seem to get a solid answer on that. it appears my cell size is 64-bits given i can store 2^62 in a single cell
17:08:52 <Croran> rdrop-exit: but i seem to be limited to the same value in a double precision int
17:08:52 <rdrop-exit> do 1 cells .
17:08:59 * jn__ notes that the precision of single and double integers is the same, the minimum difference between different numbers is always 1
17:09:13 <Croran> 1 cells . 8  ok
17:09:36 <tabemann> pastebin some code so we can see what exactly you are doing, Croran 
17:10:12 <Croran> not much to see https://pastebin.com/AiqM9Pt3
17:10:35 <rdrop-exit> jn__, true but the term is used that way nevertheless
17:10:47 <rdrop-exit> what is your question Croran?
17:11:03 <Croran> rdrop-exit the question is why can't i store a larger value in a double-precision int?
17:11:43 <rdrop-exit> You need to look at two cells to see the value of a double
17:12:05 <rdrop-exit> A double occupies two cells
17:12:23 <Croran> rdrop-exit ok i think i'm understanding now...
17:12:31 <tabemann> it's all the bits together that matter
17:12:40 <Croran> 0 and 4611686018427387904 actually represents 85070591730234615865843651857942052864
17:13:02 <Croran> i'm just confusing myself by using .s
17:14:15 <tabemann> and it just happens that 9223372036854775808 has the same lower 64 bits in double precision as -9223372036854775808 in single precision
17:14:16 <rdrop-exit> You likely won't be needing doubles much on a 64-bit system
17:14:41 <rdrop-exit> They're more useful on smaller systems
17:14:43 <tabemann> don't assume that a 64-bit forth will even support double cells
17:15:02 <Croran> great
17:15:05 <Croran> thank you
17:15:10 <rdrop-exit> :)
17:15:32 <tabemann> still, I see a place for them, since double cells *are* much faster than arbitrary precision math
17:15:59 * tabemann 's mouth waters at the thought of 64.64 fixed point math
17:16:08 <rdrop-exit> meh
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17:17:41 <rdrop-exit> Croran: The scaling operators on your 64-bit Forth internally use a 128-bit intermediate product
17:17:45 <tabemann> on another note, hashforth is coming along okay - it crashes on startup, but I'm getting it to crash later and later in the startup process
17:18:04 <rdrop-exit> The joys of debugging
17:18:22 <tabemann> as I assume gforth is typically compiled with gcc, and gcc does natively support 128-bit integer math
17:18:35 <tabemann> as does clang
17:19:27 <rdrop-exit> Or you can handroll your own
17:19:57 <rdrop-exit> if you want to be compiler independent
17:20:49 <Croran> nice
17:22:16 <tabemann> that you have to do in assembler if you want it to have reasonable performance
17:25:28 <rdrop-exit> It can also be useful to have *hi and u*hi primitives
17:26:08 <rdrop-exit> for the most significant cell of a product
17:26:15 <tabemann> yes
17:26:40 <tabemann> a way of making use of 128-bit math without requiring a full 128-bit math implementation
17:27:52 <smokeink> is there a way to tell Forth to overwrite old definitions of words ? (instead of populating the dictionary with new definitions of old words)
17:28:47 <rdrop-exit> Normally no
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17:29:31 <rdrop-exit> Your new definition might be longer than the old definition
17:29:49 <tabemann> the typical approach is to make a pointer, and have a word that is like : FOO 'FOO @ EXECUTE ;
17:30:05 <tabemann> then if you need to change that word, you do ' FOO-NEW 'FOO !
17:30:16 <rdrop-exit> Althoug tForth on the Canon Cat always overwrote old definitions with new ones
17:30:52 <rdrop-exit> And some Forths had patching of old definitions
17:31:05 <tabemann> in many Forth implementations you can delete old words - but you can only delete all words back to a certain point in history
17:31:22 <tabemann> with FORGET in older Forths and MARKER in newer ones
17:31:58 <smokeink> thanks
17:32:15 <tabemann> marker can be done retroactively to any arbitrary point, but is rather unsafe, especially with modern wordlists and like
17:32:19 <tabemann> whoops
17:32:20 <rdrop-exit> Metacompilation can also be used
17:32:21 <tabemann> *forget
17:32:31 <tabemann> marker provides a safe way of deleting words
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17:32:51 <tabemann> the disadvantage of marker is you need to plan ahead of time as to when you want to delete words
17:33:04 <rdrop-exit> almost safe
17:33:59 <tabemann> marker is good when you have the system in a known, well-defined state, and you know you'll want to return to that state in the future
17:35:25 <rdrop-exit> Useful for rolling the dictionary back after testing or experimenting
17:36:20 * tabemann is happy that he actually got a working marker implemented for hashforth
17:36:47 <rdrop-exit> I removed marker from my host forth
17:36:55 <tabemann> (whereas MARKER would never have been feasible with the ripe mess that is the implementation of attoforth)
17:41:15 <rdrop-exit> Here's the source for my old marker:
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17:43:11 <rdrop-exit> Wow, irssi froze up, had to restart it
17:43:29 <Croran> figured out how to use the forth numeric output formatting to give me the thousands separation i wanted
17:43:43 <rdrop-exit> Cool
17:44:46 <Croran> https://pastebin.com/gWQbjd9K
17:46:31 <rdrop-exit> Need more coffee, brb
17:48:47 <rdrop-exit> back
17:50:42 <tabemann> I almost wish I had coded a debugger into hashforth
17:51:09 <tabemann> the most it has is "trace mode", where it shows every word executed and the stack trace for when each word is executed, until the program exits or dies
17:51:47 <tabemann> but that's impractical because if it's busy parsing code written in forth, that can take what seems like forever
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17:52:31 <rdrop-exit> Why did you name it hashforth?
17:52:38 <tabemann> #forth
17:52:46 <rdrop-exit> Cool :)
17:52:49 <tabemann> # = hash
17:53:10 <rdrop-exit> I thought maybe you were hashing the dictionary
17:53:26 <tabemann> oh, no - pure linked lists for that
17:53:51 <tabemann> using a hashtable for the dictionary would be heretical
17:54:01 <rdrop-exit> I call mine No Frills Forth
17:54:10 <rdrop-exit> nff
17:54:40 <tabemann> attoforth is named because when I originally started it it was supposed to be small - even though it turned out to be huge - and because the name was not taken
17:55:41 <rdrop-exit> I see
17:57:06 <rdrop-exit> It requires much self-discipline to keep a system small and simple
17:58:16 <rdrop-exit> And a well defined specific purpose for the Forth
17:58:20 <tabemann> probably the biggest mistakes I made there were 1. preemptive multitasking and 2. trying to implement much of 2012
17:58:49 <rdrop-exit> Live and learn :)
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18:00:05 <tabemann> preemptive multitasking involved implementing all kinds of other stuff like locks, condition variables, and messaging channels
18:00:35 <tabemann> I might still implement messaging channels for hashforth, but they'll be lock and condition variable-less
18:00:35 <Croran> i refactored my code and fixed a bug. even shorter now! https://pastebin.com/tHqdXLBa
18:00:56 <rdrop-exit> Preemptive is a rabbit hole
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18:01:40 <rdrop-exit> Cool
18:01:51 <tabemann> also, my IO management was overly complicated
18:02:16 <tabemann> there's an IO manager of sorts in hashforth, but it's almost all implemented in Forth, and it's way smaller
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18:05:03 <dave0> re
18:05:15 <rdrop-exit> Hi dave0
18:05:35 <crc> Good evening dave0 
18:05:39 <tabemann> hey
18:05:49 <tabemann> I should get going, though  - coffee shop is closing
18:05:53 <dave0> hi rdrop-exit, crc, tabemann 
18:05:54 <tabemann> see ya later
18:06:02 <dave0> bye tabemann !
18:06:05 <rdrop-exit> Ciao tabemann
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18:13:04 <rdrop-exit> Have to walk the dogs before it gets too hot, catch you all later. Keep on Forthin'
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18:18:31 <PoppaVic> hmm
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