00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.01.19
01:13:12 <smokeink> how to enter escaped strings in spf ??
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05:12:36 <WilhelmVonWeiner> john_cephalopoda: APIs are not a solution
05:12:45 <WilhelmVonWeiner> they are a simple-looking interface that ends up causing tons of bloat
05:13:07 <WilhelmVonWeiner> because an API will always provide more functionality than any individual user of that API needs
05:17:19 <pointfree> smokeink: Does spf have S\" 
05:24:00 <smokeink> I think it doesn't
05:24:25 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: It might add a little bloat, but if you make APIs modular enough, you can avoid it as well as possible.
05:25:06 <john_cephalopoda> An API can abstract away stuff, which saves you a lot of trouble. You can just use the API and don't have to care if it runs on a pocket calculator or on a supercomputer.
05:27:59 <WilhelmVonWeiner> What program are you writing that needs to run the same on a pocket calculator and a supercomputer?
05:28:09 <WilhelmVonWeiner> It's inane
05:28:29 <smokeink> pointfree: I could only find a Z\"   
05:29:07 <smokeink> pointfree: Z\" ab\\c"    works, it escapes the backslash, but I don't know how to escape a doublequote  .  Z\" ab\"c" doesn't work
05:30:23 <pointfree> The source code itself is the best api imo.
05:30:58 <pointfree> I also won't use vocabularies as long as I have an editor.
05:31:14 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: Well, if I create a 2d platformer, I might want it to run on a TI 83 plus but also on a computer, possibly in a sixel terminal or with opengl.
05:31:31 <john_cephalopoda> If I have a framebuffer and drawing commands, I can simply abstract that away.
05:32:08 <WilhelmVonWeiner> not much of an API.
05:32:34 <crc> smokeink: there is an implementation of s\" at http://www.forth200x.org/escaped-strings.html which might work
05:33:42 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: That's literally what an API is about.
05:33:52 <john_cephalopoda> Having an interface to do things, no matter what the backend looks like.
05:34:44 <john_cephalopoda> The Forth core is also an API, offering things like "EMIT", "TYPE" or "!", no matter what terminal or device you use, and no matter what kind of RAM you have.
05:34:45 <WilhelmVonWeiner> you're calling a buffer an api
05:34:58 <john_cephalopoda> I am calling a buffer and buffer modification words an API.
05:35:14 <john_cephalopoda> OpenGL is basically that. A vertex buffer and a few words to modify it.
05:35:59 <smokeink> crc: can you also please to an implementation of string/  ? it needs string/ which is missing in spf
05:37:02 <pointfree> Well if you have an opengl and a sixel implementation exposed through a px! ( r g b x y --)  word with the same name px! for both implementations that's a lean api with minimal surface area
05:37:38 <john_cephalopoda> Exactly.
05:37:47 <smokeink> crc: found it
05:37:54 * smokeink it was /string  , my bad. I'm new to forth
05:38:07 <crc> no problem :)
05:40:51 <john_cephalopoda> The Forth CORE standard is already bloated.
05:41:17 <smokeink> crc: it worked , thank you
05:43:07 <WilhelmVonWeiner> john_cephalopoda: where?
05:44:08 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: I don't use most of the number conversion words. 
05:44:51 <john_cephalopoda> Also there's a bunch of stack manipulation words that I've never used before.
05:45:07 <WilhelmVonWeiner> S>D is a good word
05:45:41 <crc> CORE is a smaller set than '79 or FIG, and two words more than 83.
05:46:01 <WilhelmVonWeiner> FIG is absolutely massive
05:46:06 <john_cephalopoda> I mean stuff like <# #>
05:46:08 <john_cephalopoda> Or #
05:46:23 <WilhelmVonWeiner> those are real useful 
05:46:25 <crc> It largely meets its goals of keeping the common things from the earlier standards while allowing greater source compatibility across implementations
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05:46:40 <WilhelmVonWeiner> my CHIP-8 was using them to print opcodes as they ran
05:46:55 <WilhelmVonWeiner> and addresses and that
05:46:56 <john_cephalopoda> Also ." and S" should honestly respect escape sequences. That's a big flaw in the standard.
05:47:26 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: Well, "because an API will always provide more functionality than any individual user of that API needs"
05:47:31 <john_cephalopoda> I don't need that stuff.
05:47:55 <john_cephalopoda> Imo, "CORE" should only contain the bare necessities. 
05:48:29 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I don't need escape sequences
05:48:34 <WilhelmVonWeiner> 13 EMIT 
05:48:51 <crc> but what are the bare necessities?
05:49:27 <john_cephalopoda> crc: The words that you can use to build all other words.
05:49:35 <crc> adding escape sequences to s" would break existing code that didn't expect them. hence s\"
05:50:26 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: If I want to print a string like "<a href="index.html">Index</a>", I can't do that without escaping ".
05:51:03 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: In that case I could still add a "34 EMIT" inbetween, but with S" I am totally lost.
05:51:16 <john_cephalopoda> gforth has words for that, but imo that should be the default behavior.
05:52:18 <dave0> if you had S' you could    S' <a href="index.html">Index</a>'
05:52:22 <crc> so more like eforth (around 30 words)? or rx (56 or so words)? then leave it up to the user to define everything else?
05:53:12 <john_cephalopoda> dave0: Yeah, but as soon as you mix ' and ", then it breaks again.
05:53:44 <dave0> john_cephalopoda: :-(
05:54:09 <crc> s\" takes care of this situation
06:01:38 <pointfree> escaped strings are a lot of off-line parsing action. Those html tags should probably be turned into forth words.
06:04:24 <john_cephalopoda> crc: Yeah, I just wish that was part of the standard.
06:05:22 <pointfree> john_cephalopoda: It's part of the forth200x standard http://www.forth200x.org/escaped-strings.html
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06:20:13 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I have finally brought my buckling spring keyboard back into action
06:20:17 <WilhelmVonWeiner> it's SO NICE to type on
06:20:30 <WilhelmVonWeiner> LOUD though, I'd forgotten how loud these things get.
06:23:15 <crc> model M or F?
06:23:52 <corecode> i'm half stuck on my forth cpu design
06:24:22 <corecode> i think i'd like to do single clock cycle instructions, but that means a lot of things need to sit in registers
06:24:36 <corecode> plus maybe pipelining
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06:42:16 <zy]x[yz> i generally don't have an issue reasoning about stacks
06:42:39 <WilhelmVonWeiner> crc: M. I would love an F though
06:42:46 <zy]x[yz> but when you dump it and it's a stack that grows down (pushing decrements the stack pointer), and dump output has lower addresses at the top
06:42:56 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Unicomp's version of the M. The same, but aesthetically different.
06:43:02 <zy]x[yz> like, just that double-reversal confuses the heck out of me
06:43:20 <zy]x[yz> like trying to reason out a double negative in a sentence
06:43:36 <crc> I have a unicomp m, it's nice to use on the rare days when my rsi pain isn't bothering me
06:44:20 <crc> At work I have access to a 1989 IBM model m
06:44:44 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I don't think I have the ports for one of them.
06:45:13 * crc has a coworker who's obsessed with the model m. he has 6-7 spares as backups and various adapters for each
06:45:58 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I can't blame him, it's a dream machine
06:48:50 <crc> I'd love to get an M15 someday. Split, tenting, and buckling springs.
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06:55:42 <WilhelmVonWeiner> wonder how much one of those go for
06:56:06 <WilhelmVonWeiner> $1600+ apparently...
06:58:03 <crc> WilhelmVonWeiner: yeah, they are really expensive
07:16:05 <crc> hmm, new post from /u/wengchunkn on reddit. I think I'm done responding to these.
07:16:31 <corecode> yey?
07:16:37 <corecode> important person?
07:16:41 <crc> no
07:17:25 <crc> he posts about big, vague concepts that loosely relate to RPN, which he equates to being Forth
07:17:42 <corecode> nice
07:17:47 <corecode> vision
07:18:40 <crc> lots of invented acronyms, wants to unify all languages via an RPN syntax based on physical locations of bits of code in source files, charging money for colon definitions
07:19:13 <corecode> what would the money be used for?
07:19:56 <crc> no idea. he wants to bake a payment thing into the language to allow the developer of a word to charge for it
07:20:03 <corecode> right on
07:20:07 <corecode> blockchain?
07:20:26 <crc> that's not specified
07:20:29 <corecode> okay
07:20:39 <zy]x[yz> i keep trying to get my company to pay me per line of code too, i don't understand why it doesn't catch on
07:20:44 <crc> https://github.com/udexon/SMMP/blob/master/CDIB.md
07:20:59 <corecode> ah, no need for details
07:21:20 <corecode> so, are you elaborating on these suggestions?
07:21:46 <crc> I tried to get him to clarify things
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07:27:34 <pointfree> crc: "c++ parser in forth on php" or something
07:27:34 <pointfree> I'm thinking that as a community grows it needs something to preserve the high quality and forthiness
07:31:05 <crc> I remember that one: he fails to see that identification of { } pairs isn't parsing and that C++ and C are different. Or that a stack based / reverse polish notation for a PHP with cryptically renamed fuctions doesn't make it Forth.
07:31:43 <corecode> who?
07:31:47 <corecode> the crazy?
07:31:54 <crc> yes
07:32:05 <corecode> so why do you engage?
07:32:48 <zy]x[yz> yeah crc, why do you do the thing that you just said you're going to stop doing?
07:32:50 <WilhelmVonWeiner> He's trying to start a blockchain project.
07:32:57 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Like Tron
07:33:17 <corecode> good for him
07:33:29 <WilhelmVonWeiner> That's my take on the ramblings anyhow
07:33:42 <crc> I had been hoping that he might actually start focusing towards the details and develop something that could be interesting in the future.
07:33:44 <corecode> isn't bitcoin script a stack language?
07:33:59 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Yes
07:34:03 <corecode> crc: nah, people who talk don't walk
07:37:05 <crc> corecode: I gave him a month. Done with him now unless he eventually comes around with code and specifics.
07:37:31 <corecode> my suggestion is not to care about the ramblings of crazies
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07:44:42 <crc> sometimes crazy ideas lead to interesting projects
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07:52:57 <WilhelmVonWeiner> like the crazy programmer in the 60s, who wondered if he could re-compile his interpreter during runtime
07:54:07 <corecode> crc: yea, but only if they are being implemented, not when they're just being tossed around vaguely
07:55:14 <crc> yes, which is why I gave it a month. That's enough time to see if someone is willing to at least make a reasonable start.
07:55:33 <corecode> i generally wait until there is code
07:55:52 <corecode> or a spec
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08:12:26 <john_cephalopoda> Hmm, package management.
08:12:40 <john_cephalopoda> Many languages got it nowadays, but most of them do it wrong.
08:12:53 <corecode> yes
08:13:00 <corecode> because it is difficult :)
08:15:45 <john_cephalopoda> Not that much
08:16:59 <john_cephalopoda> The most difficult part is the cyclic dependency check.
08:17:07 <john_cephalopoda> But that's it.
08:17:34 <corecode> pretty sure you're underestimating things
08:18:17 <john_cephalopoda> What is the complicated part?
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08:19:04 <corecode> different API versions required for the same package
08:19:12 <john_cephalopoda> Lol, no package manager handles that.
08:19:21 <corecode> node does, i think
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08:19:44 <corecode> every imported package is only visible to the package using it
08:20:35 <john_cephalopoda> But even with different API versions - just make subdirectories for different versions and the packager has to specify which one they want.
08:20:47 <corecode> right
08:21:07 <john_cephalopoda> My main complaint is, that it seems to be a complex thing in most package managers, to install stuff for one user.
08:21:27 <corecode> probably should be per-project
08:22:35 <john_cephalopoda> Might work, too.
08:22:36 <pointfree> hyperstatic scope takes care of dependency conflicts
08:22:47 <pointfree> Almost like NixOS
08:30:33 <pointfree> I'm just thinking about how one might create a package out of a word such as px!
08:30:33 <pointfree> By package I mean finding all words that px! calls and bundling those words up into a minimal binary turnkey that could also be comma compiled onto another dictionary and work.
08:30:41 <corecode> so i think for a single cycle ALU, i need TOS and second on stack in registers, and not in memory
08:30:58 <john_cephalopoda> pointfree: Why binary?
08:31:28 <proteusguy> corecode, you could need as many as the top 4 items in the stack mapped as registers - but yes, definitely TOS & NOS.
08:35:09 <pointfree> john_cephalopoda: So the package can just be comma compiled onto the dictionary and be readily machine-handled with regular forth dictionary handling words like `'` `,` `execute` 'sifting` `see` `dump` etc.
08:35:10 <pointfree> You could still call `see` on packages before installing them.
08:35:49 <pointfree> but maybe you are right...
08:36:25 <pointfree> compiling from source can aid in compatibility with and linking with low level words.
08:37:03 <john_cephalopoda> Mmh.
08:37:54 <pointfree> So maybe stop short of executing core words by switching to dummy core words and fetching the contents of return stack addresses.
08:40:05 <pointfree> ...and calling `see` on the contents at those high level words' return stack addresses to get source code of the word and its dependencies.
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08:48:01 <crc> done with my last bit of pastebin work, using a pipe & curl to upload a paste to sprunge.us: http://forth.works/c855f03430ba613e8e9acb318d8a630b
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08:55:19 <crc> I'll have to look into adding support for a bidirectional variant of unix:popen so I can avoid the temporary file
08:56:55 <mark4> is there a bidirectional variant? wont you need 2 pipes?
08:58:21 <crc> probably
08:59:08 <crc> macos popen is bidirectional, as is freebsd
08:59:09 <mark4> ok just cheking lol
08:59:12 <PoppaVic> bsd popen
08:59:45 <PoppaVic> Never understood why it was a difficult proposition.
09:00:31 <crc> openbsd is unidirectional, don't know on linux
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09:00:49 <crc> I think netbsd allows bidirectional as well
09:00:53 <PoppaVic> linux is one-way
09:02:51 <mark4> just commited a fix to x4's github that prevented the extended forth from loading under certain kernels, fsave bug
09:03:41 <mark4> every now and then a new kernel release would be unable to run x4 but then a later release of the linux kernel wouldnt have the issue
09:03:44 <mark4> it was my bug tho
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09:21:38 <mark4> ok so why does the xterm256-color terminfo file NOT start with a 0432 octal magic number grrr
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09:28:08 <mark4> actually the entire binary file format for xterm256-color is different
09:29:13 <proteusguy> mark4, wow long time no see. I was just going over your github earlier today by coincidence!
09:29:39 <mark4> hey. working my first programming job in 7 years
09:29:45 <mark4> im in alpharetta ga
09:30:13 <mark4> zy]x[yz: said he was in this area but not sure if he is or not
09:30:49 <john_cephalopoda> Hmm, I wonder if it would have advantages to use openGL for rendering the terminal...
09:31:08 <mark4> On  occasion, 16-bit signed integers are not large enough.  With ncurses 6.1, a new format
09:31:08 <mark4>        is introduced by making a few changes to the legacy format:
09:31:14 <mark4> drat i have to update my curses code :/
09:31:19 <pointfree> mark4: If it's an xterm bug report it to Thomas E. DIckey ( he's responsive) or in the #xterm irc channel
09:31:27 <proteusguy> mark4, cool - I used to live in Lawrenceville and have a friend with a testing biz in Alpharetta. What kind of work you doing? Weren't you in Texas before?
09:31:29 <mark4> its not an xterm bug
09:31:51 <mark4> i was in texas, moved to north carolina then got this job here
09:32:47 <zy]x[yz> mark4, i am
09:32:51 <mark4> !
09:32:54 <zy]x[yz> i live here
09:33:05 <zy]x[yz> and work here
09:33:08 <mark4> was not sure if you were just joking or actually lived here lol
09:34:07 <zy]x[yz> i've lived in ga my whole life
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09:38:09 <mark4> i also have a problem getting the alt charset output to work in the linux terminal and i have no idea why its not working. asked thomas dickey for info on why the alt charset doesnt work for me there but he didnt answer that question
09:38:18 <mark4> it works in every x terminal i have tested under
09:38:27 <mark4> no line drawing etc in linux terminal
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13:20:13 <corecode> hm, single cycle ! is difficult
13:20:36 <corecode> because i need to refill both TOS and NOS
13:23:20 <pointfree> .\" \x1BP1;0;0!zHello World\x1B\x5C"
13:23:28 <pointfree> .\" \x1B[1*z"
13:23:57 * pointfree is trying out terminal macros in mlterm
13:24:35 <pointfree> https://vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/DECDMAC.html
13:24:35 <pointfree> https://vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/DECINVM.html
13:24:43 <smokeink> what's the word that returns the pointer to TOS ?
13:25:05 <corecode> what pointer
13:25:29 <pointfree> smokeink: sp@
13:25:36 <smokeink> ( it's unrelated to what you were discussing ) 
13:26:26 <corecode> oh that would assume that the stack is in the same address space, interesting
13:27:11 <corecode> i guess only if you used !/@ with that address
13:31:41 <pointfree> Unfortunately the terminal macros are cleared when the terminal window is closed so I can't use them to cookie track you in the cli for offers of free ipods.
13:34:45 <pointfree> john_cephalopoda: were you suggesting writing a terminal emulator?
13:48:27 <john_cephalopoda> pointfree: Not planning to do so, I was just wondering since terminal emulators appear to have so many issues with rendering simple text.
13:50:44 <john_cephalopoda> Hmm, I don't know what I want to do with Forth.
13:52:15 <john_cephalopoda> Having a broad software ecosystem written in Forth would be pretty awesome...
13:53:59 <john_cephalopoda> But the Forth standard has some gaps that make it hard to write applications in ANS Forth that actually do stuff.
13:55:01 <pointfree> Cultivate your dissatisfaction with everything and you will always be busy.
13:55:22 <john_cephalopoda> Oh, I already have cultivated it a lot :þ
13:55:38 <pointfree> Good
13:56:08 <crc> john_cephalopoda: add what you need, or implement a forth that fixes the things you dislike 
13:56:09 <pointfree> pickyness is a virtue
13:57:16 <john_cephalopoda> The biggest issues that I got with ANS Forth are string handling and file handling. Catastrophic.
13:58:30 <john_cephalopoda> I could maybe write some wrapper to make string handling better, but file handling is very low-level and hard to fix without changing the forth implementation itself.
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13:59:46 <crc> I never really did much with files on an ANS Forth, but I never liked strings. Having a mix of string types always felt wrong.
14:02:31 <corecode> hm, maybe i can only keep TOS in a register, and read NOS from memory
14:02:53 <corecode> hm no
14:03:22 <corecode> this doesn't fix my problem that i need to fetch two stack elements for ! operations
14:03:56 <corecode> so my ! cannot be single cycle
14:04:07 <corecode> interesting problem
14:04:16 <john_cephalopoda> crc: The question is if cstrings or c-addr n is the way to go.
14:04:22 <crc> i 
14:04:34 <crc> i went with c style strings
14:04:47 <corecode> what are cstrings?  counted strings?
14:05:15 <smokeink> Little problem, I think I'm missing something obvious: 0 SP@ 0x1104EE GetWindowThreadProcessId \ works       , but 0x1104EE 0 swap SP@ cell + GetWindowThreadProcessId        doesn't ... Am I messing anything up in the 2nd snippet ?
14:05:21 <john_cephalopoda> corecode: Yep. Counted strings.
14:05:45 <crc> (mine are null terminated), counted are ok too
14:05:49 <john_cephalopoda> crc: Right, 0-terminating is also possible, although I always found it a bit dangerous. It's easy to forget the \0.
14:06:15 <crc> I disliked passing two values for a string
14:06:19 <corecode> john_cephalopoda: i like the fatness of cstrings, but i don't like having to allocate temporaries during parsing
14:06:37 <smokeink> oh damn, I must be too tired
14:06:53 <john_cephalopoda> corecode: Why do you need to allocate temporaries during parsing?
14:06:54 <smokeink> I saw it only when I typed on this channel 
14:07:26 <corecode> john_cephalopoda: how else would i create a cstring?
14:07:32 <corecode> i need to store it somewhere
14:07:42 <john_cephalopoda> But you also have to store a regular string.
14:07:46 <corecode> no
14:07:53 <corecode> i can point in-place
14:08:09 <john_cephalopoda> In what way?
14:08:46 <corecode> i don't know what that means
14:09:09 <john_cephalopoda> Oh, you mean just pointing at a memory area where some string is stored and using (c-addr n).
14:09:14 <corecode> yes
14:09:20 <john_cephalopoda> Right, that makes sense.
14:10:48 <john_cephalopoda> Also for substrings cstrings are inconvenient.
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18:42:54 <siraben> huh my OS is popular all of a sudden, just checked HN
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19:16:14 <PoppaVic> so... why the decision for Nga to not change IP until the END of the bundle?
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19:17:36 <PoppaVic> I think the example was "lit call lit call" - but only the last call was executed.. 
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19:30:10 <dave0> hi
20:07:19 <crc> PoppaVic: io is incremented after each processing instruction bundle
20:08:13 <crc> Ip changes calls and jumps take place immediately 
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20:09:45 <crc> The muri assembler source discusses this briefly:
20:09:54 <crc> While you can pack up to four instructions per location, you
20:09:54 <crc> should not place anything after an instruction that modifies the
20:09:54 <crc> instruction pointer. These are: ju, ca, cc, re, and zr.
20:13:01 <PoppaVic> crc: thanks, yes: I'd read it in the pages. I just wondered why not just do it on the first one and be done with it?
20:16:07 <crc> A bit of a desire to keep things minimalist and simple. The instruction processor doesn't track which instructions have already been executed or any internal register states. I just let it assume that whosever is feeding it instructions has packed them as intended.
20:16:17 <crc> (This 
20:16:36 <PoppaVic> I mean, you can have several LIT in a row, and even if they had two CALL in a row, the first would short the 2nd
20:17:05 <PoppaVic> hmm, ok.. So, basically it was an assumption that the tool compiling it would do the proper job
20:17:06 <crc> (This was intended as a modular model in some ways, I expect Nga to be extended as needed but it's users)
20:17:42 <PoppaVic> Yeah, if you have users relying on you and the behavior, I gotcha'.
20:17:57 <crc> PoppaVic: yes
20:18:25 <crc> The Nga document makes this clearer: 'Nga will not stop processing code, but execution flow errors may arise
20:18:25 <crc> if the packing tool does not take these into account.'
20:18:58 <PoppaVic> Yep, that was obvious waaay back when I looked at this before ;-)
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