00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.01.17 00:39:51 --- join: xek (~xek@apn-31-0-23-83.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl) joined #forth 02:02:59 --- quit: ashirase (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 02:07:36 --- join: ashirase (~ashirase@modemcable098.166-22-96.mc.videotron.ca) joined #forth 02:13:26 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host53-189-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 02:17:32 --- join: dddddd (~dddddd@unaffiliated/dddddd) joined #forth 02:29:14 --- quit: ecraven (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 02:31:16 --- join: ecraven (ecraven@www.nexoid.at) joined #forth 02:55:00 --- quit: pierpal (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 03:18:46 --- join: [1]MrMobius (~default@c-73-134-82-217.hsd1.va.comcast.net) joined #forth 03:21:46 --- quit: MrMobius (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 03:21:46 --- nick: [1]MrMobius -> MrMobius 03:30:09 --- join: [1]MrMobius (~default@c-73-134-82-217.hsd1.va.comcast.net) joined #forth 03:33:14 --- quit: MrMobius (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 03:33:14 --- nick: [1]MrMobius -> MrMobius 03:48:58 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host53-189-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 04:00:42 --- quit: pierpal (Quit: Poof) 04:01:02 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host53-189-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 04:25:58 --- quit: pierpal (Quit: Poof) 04:26:16 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host53-189-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 04:43:19 --- join: [1]MrMobius (~default@c-73-134-82-217.hsd1.va.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:46:22 --- quit: MrMobius (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 04:46:22 --- nick: [1]MrMobius -> MrMobius 05:34:12 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 06:11:22 --- quit: pierpal (Quit: Poof) 06:11:43 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host53-189-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 06:12:52 --- join: Kumool (~Khwerz@adsl-64-237-239-252.prtc.net) joined #forth 06:16:06 --- quit: pierpal (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 06:38:42 WilhelmVonWeiner: Breadth-first evaluation `here sp! 2 , 2 , 3 , 3 , 2 , 2 , 3 , 3 , * , * , * , * , + , + , . . ( 13 13)` 06:39:59 Next stop, lazy-short-circuit-evaluation?! 06:40:43 * Zarutian hands pointfree N and L wires and dares him to put them together. 06:42:04 lol 06:43:36 say, is there a forth port of libsodium somewhere? 06:43:56 Zarutian: Well the PSoC 5LP CPLD routing fabric does actual hardware short-circuit routing. 06:44:35 perhaps forth lazy eval could be of use there 06:44:41 what does the 5LP stand for? Five big cups of coffee the designer had when designing the thing? 06:44:58 5 Low Power 06:45:10 There was a PSoC 5 06:45:29 but all mention was purged from the cypress website 06:45:57 PSoC stands for Propeller System on a Chip 5 Low Power Complex Programmable Logic Device, yes? 06:45:58 At least I can't find the PSoC5 TRM anywhere 06:46:42 Programmable System on a Chip 5 Low Power 06:47:35 oh, so they imply the others arent programmable, eh? 06:48:01 Their Cypress specific term for their Complex Programmable Logic Device is the Universal Digital Block Array (UDB array) 06:48:27 that sounds, generic. 06:48:40 They have a Programmable System combined with an ARM on the same SoC 06:49:10 yeah, I found the design of ARM over encumbered in some places and lacking in others. 06:49:51 so, I wouldnt want to use it much in new designs unless I have to. 06:50:47 I found riscv to be a very bland design 06:51:24 what to expect, it is based a bit on MIPS 06:52:20 but they, the riscv folks, have worked hard to try to stamp out any accidental complexity they were aware of as far as I can tell 06:53:12 this Universal Digital Block Array, is it based on macrocells or async luts? 06:56:40 Zarutian: They contain AND-OR-MC PLD's with carry chain, a datapath unit, dynamic configuration ram, hw fifo, status & control block to reconfigure the fabric dynamically, and clocking unit + very permutable/flexible routing fabric. 06:57:21 Although there are LUT's in the 5LP, for the UAB array, afaik 06:57:34 --- quit: Kumool (Quit: EXIT) 06:58:18 --- join: Kumool (~Khwerz@adsl-64-237-239-252.prtc.net) joined #forth 06:58:26 hmm.. does it have internally accessible control&reconfig port like Xilinx Spartan 6 has? it is nifty for reconfigurable computing 07:01:24 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host53-189-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 07:03:19 Zarutian: The status block can read the line status of nets on the fabric. The control block can write to lines in the fabric. https://hub.darcs.net/pointfree/psoc-logic-examples/browse/ex0.txt The entire fabric is mapped into memory for random access. 07:06:54 nifty 07:28:58 pointfree, I'm not a huge fan of the RISCV ISA but I do love all the tooling that's happening because of it. Makes it a lot easier to be able to build a forth chip using open source tools. 07:32:44 --- quit: Guest69125 (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 07:33:05 --- quit: siraben (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 07:33:41 --- quit: jimt[m] (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 07:33:44 --- quit: bb010g (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 07:36:00 --- join: siraben (sirabenmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-mrtfirzisxtgnrws) joined #forth 07:36:06 --- join: Guest69125 (alexshpilk@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-xczamphklamjawiq) joined #forth 07:36:47 --- join: bb010g (bb010gmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-rkkhcqozusawsprq) joined #forth 07:39:33 --- join: jimt[m] (jimtmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wdegijwbjcakmxac) joined #forth 07:45:32 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 07:58:40 --- quit: nerfur (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 08:02:30 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 08:03:46 --- quit: xek (Remote host closed the connection) 08:04:00 Better ISA than x86 though :þ 08:04:14 --- join: xek (~xek@31.0.23.83) joined #forth 08:22:18 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/coqasm.pdf 08:22:33 Maybe I should write my Forth in Coq next 08:41:33 that's some verbose shit 08:41:48 --- join: proteusguy (~yaaic@cm-58-10-154-54.revip7.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 08:41:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 08:46:28 Theorem proving isn't exactly known for being concise :P 08:52:01 Coq has a code extraction into languages like Scheme, Haskell, OCaml, but once can write a custom backend 08:52:18 Forth might be an interesting target 08:52:44 Generate formally verified Forth code 08:55:00 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 08:55:13 https://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/euroforth/ef13/papers/ertl-paf.pdf 09:14:15 --- join: proteusguy (~yaaic@cm-58-10-154-54.revip7.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 09:14:15 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 09:16:29 siraben: generate forth, not verify a forth kernel? 09:16:52 yea that would be nice 09:21:08 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 09:21:23 --- join: proteusguy (~yaaic@cm-58-10-154-54.revip7.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 09:21:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 09:26:40 --- join: darithorn (~darithorn@75.174.238.174) joined #forth 09:29:35 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 09:53:10 --- quit: nighty- (Remote host closed the connection) 09:55:45 --- join: proteusguy (~yaaic@cm-58-10-154-54.revip7.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 09:55:45 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 10:08:44 Forth isn't really a programming language at all, it is a religion. Forth is a write only language. Forth's very limited value was only in the past on very small machines. Forth had some value thirty years ago but then C won and Forth died. Forth is a joke. Forth is a cult. There has never been a single decent program in Forth. Forth stinks. 10:08:50 - Jeff Fox 10:10:43 I love Jeff's writings even if they are incredibly long poorly proof-read walls of text 10:11:29 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 10:13:41 never could get past that flaw, and also that he sucks at explaining ideas clearly and concisely 10:26:19 seems easier to implement a performant embedded language than lisp 10:34:26 WilhelmVonWeiner: ??? C never 'won' per say. Heck it isnt allowed in any serious hard-hard realtime applications and control. C is for many purposes just a slightly nicer version of Fortran. 10:35:17 i get the impression that the quote is sarcasm 10:35:44 although i do think the first sentence rings pretty true 10:37:33 s/religion/system/ because you have a live Forth system that ingests code and not the usual editor->compiler->assembler->linker cycle that only act on 'dead' artifacts so to speak. 10:38:43 well, i meant more in the sense that, at least from what i've seen, it's as much or more a design philosophy as it is a specification of syntax and semantics 10:39:32 right. Like the difference between K&R C and laterday C 10:51:29 Zarutian: It was Jeff Fox talking about things mainstream programming says about Forth 11:00:50 --- join: nerfur (~nerfur@broadband-95-84-184-13.ip.moscow.rt.ru) joined #forth 11:05:53 WilhelmVonWeiner: context is everything. 11:43:21 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 11:56:08 for instance "...make america great again." said by Clinton in an 'elect-me' kind of speach 11:59:27 --- join: dys (~dys@tmo-100-39.customers.d1-online.com) joined #forth 11:59:56 hmm, I wonder what the statistics are on how long it takes to do the same project in C vs Forth 12:00:11 I know they have calculated that for all kinds of other languages like java and python 12:00:22 I think the name Jeff Fox should've made the context clear enough 12:00:56 MrMobius: add 2 months onto Forth for the time it takes the developer to write their own implementation that runs the same as most other implementations 12:01:56 BUT that implementation will have the very important SHRLDU word, which manipulates the stack in a way that nobody has seen before and unleashes the power of the universe! 12:03:02 SHRLDU ( 1 2 3 --- 3 2 1 ) 12:03:42 WilhelmVonWeiner, the same as other implementations except completely unoptimized :P 12:05:12 --- quit: pierpal (Quit: Poof) 12:05:31 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host53-189-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 12:09:24 MrMobius: we have a saying here, (place that works with safety critical mcus), a C compiler just optimizes away any safety-check you put in because it thinks it is unimportant. 12:09:52 john_cephalopoda: SHRLDU should never be SEEn 12:10:31 it is basically "it got lost in the C" 12:15:48 i wonder what kind of basic stack micro ops i need 12:15:52 My Bonnie is using the Forth now, my Bonnie is over the C... ;þ 12:16:26 Zarutian, maybe if you don't know how to use volatile, const, etc 12:16:38 corecode: SWAP, DUP, DROP, >R, R> look like a pretty solid set. 12:18:15 : ROT >R SWAP R> SWAP ; : OVER >R DUP R> SWAP ; \ There's quite a lot one can do with those operators 12:34:15 You'll need far more micro ops than that 12:37:16 crc: When you are you going to start charging for the words that make up a Malboge->Forth transpiler? 12:55:57 MrMobius: those were used, still the checks got optimized away. 12:56:15 MrMobius: but then again C compilers for MCUs have always been crappy 12:57:19 corecode, john_cephalopoda: yebb, they are pretty solid these five 13:26:49 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 13:38:14 Zarutian, I dont believe that at all. you have gcc for plenty of MCUs for example 13:38:22 Zarutian, are you using an 8051 or something? 13:45:14 CISC made by Radeon (not sure of the spelling) which is quite unlinke Intel family, or Motorola or ARM. 13:51:46 "there are no good C compilers for my archetecture" <> "but then again C compilers for MCUs have always been crappy" 13:52:20 that should be "there are no good C compilers for my archetecture" "but then again C compilers for MCUs have always been crappy" <> 13:53:49 MrMobius: besides there are quite a few assumptions made by gcc about the target architecture. Such as that program memory and work memory is the same one and of sufficient size. 13:54:33 MrMobius: gcc also makes assumption about that inlining as an optimization is okay too. (No it isnt on MCUs with limited program memory) 13:55:55 or use a sequence of instructions to do something that is already an instruction in the ISA. 13:57:27 (bit setting and resetting in AVR is one example) 14:04:39 WilhelmVonWeiner: Which micro-ops do you need in addition to those? 14:04:59 (SWAP, DUP, DROP, >R, R>) 14:05:17 --- join: X-Scale` (~ARM@83.223.227.140) joined #forth 14:05:17 And maybe . 14:06:20 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 14:06:21 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 14:15:21 WilhelmVonWeiner: per word charges in Retro, ever. 14:20:33 john_cephalopoda: being lazy, shrldu could just be :shlrdu 'abc 'cba reorder ; (or : SHRLDU S" abc" S" cba" reorder ; if you use a more traditional Forth) 14:49:59 crc: It could also be "SWAP ROT". 14:50:58 True 14:52:37 Reorder isn't efficient, and I use it sparingly in any code that's not a 1-off thing 15:35:33 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@193.060.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 15:35:58 hi 15:46:33 hi dave 15:47:33 hi john_cephalopoda 15:47:42 what's new? 15:59:57 Nothing really. 16:00:31 --- join: proteusguy (~yaaic@cm-58-10-154-54.revip7.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 16:00:36 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 16:03:34 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:26:27 crc: If I run a word with bi@, do I get charged twice? kekekeke 16:41:01 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@b157153.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 16:41:36 Hmm, I don't think he's considered that yet 16:44:16 I've been waiting for his next post to reddit. I'm curious as to what his next random incomplete idea will be. 16:48:06 You have to purchase cells as microtransactions. 16:48:37 10 for $0.99, 50 for $4.49, or 100 for $8.99 16:49:19 * crc cringes at 5he thought 16:55:02 --- quit: john_cephalopoda (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 16:56:50 --- join: john_cephalopoda (~john@unaffiliated/john-cephalopoda/x-6407167) joined #forth 17:08:38 At that rate the retro image would be around $1200 17:12:36 I'd buy the recurring always-online subscription 17:13:18 .24.99 to-USD 'forthworks.org payment:submit 17:21:19 Meh. Seems problematic to use floating point for that. The payment should be fixed point. 17:22:10 Also it should take a constant for the currency type 17:22:47 2499 USD 'forthworks.com payment:submit 17:23:00 Err, #2499 17:23:43 (RSI making typing difficult tonight; I did too much coding at work the last couple of days) 17:24:00 Oh I'm from England, so `:to-USD GBP USD 'xe.com currency:conversion ;` 17:24:57 RSI? Are you still programming from an ipad? it could be the keyboard 17:26:28 I use physical keyboards almost always. Currently using a Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic. 17:27:13 I only use the virtual keyboard when I need to do emergency work or for very short replies. 17:27:49 I've heard Gateron clear switches are good for RSI as they have a low actuation force. 17:27:55 * crc is looking to get a better keyboard and a standing desk in a couple of months 17:28:11 I would get a split keyboard, like UHK or Ergodox 17:28:42 I've been looking at the Ergodox and the Kinesis advantage2 17:30:16 I think the Kinesis is interesting but seems it would be a pain to configure and get used to. 17:30:34 https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ ( UHK ) 17:31:33 The UHK looks interesting too 17:32:23 * crc is willing to make significant time investments in adopting more ergonomic options 17:32:25 I'm still not sold on ortholinear keyboards, I get my first in April (a Planck keyboard) 17:33:00 The pain and movement issues have set me back nearly a year on my plans already 17:33:24 how have you calculated a year? 17:34:15 I built a column staggered ortho keyboard similar to the (https://atreus.technomancy.us), it worked well until the acrylic plates broke 17:36:06 I have a set of plans for my current projects including projected timeframes and schedules. I fell badly behind where I wanted to be due to the ongoing RSI issues. 17:37:25 wood finish, bleh 17:38:02 There should have been three updates to retro by now, not just one. I had planned to have the turnkey compiler done for BSD & Linux several months ago. I had plans for big updates to all of my iOS apps, I've barely made any headway on any of them. 17:38:10 My favourite non-buckling switches I've ever used (personally) are ALPs switches, very flat, very quiet, very technical 17:38:42 Wow, that sucks. Maybe I should look into protecting against RSI 17:39:11 I had intended to have a tool for the lighting retrofit industry ready to launch by November. If I'm lucky, it'll be ready by late summer now. 17:39:50 RSI sucks. The last time I had issues with it I nearly stopped all computer use for a couple of years. 17:42:26 It's actually what lead to the three year gap between retro9 (2006) and the retro10 rewrite (2009) 17:43:03 I'd probably have done a tenth generation assembly system had this not cropped up then 17:43:37 (This is my third flare up with RSI since I was diagnosed 15 years ago) 17:45:27 (I should say, x86 assembly. Retro is still in assembly, just for a virtual MISC cpu now) 17:47:09 Would be cool to see Nga written in some kind of assembler. 17:51:55 --- join: dave69 (~dave0@193.060.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 17:52:54 --- join: crc_ (~crc@li782-252.members.linode.com) joined #forth 17:54:30 --- join: dave42 (~dave@193.060.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 17:55:57 --- join: Monev (~Khwerz@adsl-64-237-239-252.prtc.net) joined #forth 17:56:24 --- join: WilhelmV1nWeiner (dch@ny1.hashbang.sh) joined #forth 17:56:37 --- join: jn___ (~nope@aftr-109-90-232-48.unity-media.net) joined #forth 17:57:25 --- join: tabemann (~tabemann@h193.235.138.40.static.ip.windstream.net) joined #forth 18:00:21 --- quit: dave9 (Disconnected by services) 18:00:25 --- nick: dave42 -> dave9 18:00:40 --- quit: dave0 (*.net *.split) 18:00:40 --- quit: Kumool (*.net *.split) 18:00:40 --- quit: jn__ (*.net *.split) 18:00:40 --- quit: presiden (*.net *.split) 18:00:40 --- quit: WilhelmVonWeiner (*.net *.split) 18:00:40 --- quit: APic (*.net *.split) 18:00:40 --- quit: crc (*.net *.split) 18:01:35 --- nick: dave69 -> dave0 18:08:00 --- join: APic (apic@apic.name) joined #forth 18:08:49 --- join: presiden (fwiw@unaffiliated/matematikaadit) joined #forth 18:14:15 --- nick: jn___ -> jn__ 18:24:09 I might be able to do that. There is an ngaro implementation in x86-64 assembly that could serve as a starting point 18:24:17 --- nick: crc_ -> crc 18:24:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +v crc 18:29:00 And a RISC-V version of ngaro 18:31:22 (I think that my next assembly version will be either ARM or RISC-V, I'm tired of x86.) 18:39:03 I'm nervous to try my new multitasker for hashforth 18:40:23 (multitasking for hashforth is much simpler than that for attoforth because it's cooperative; it would be simpler were it not for that I put in a sleep mode where it waits on IO or the time without actually using CPU time) 19:03:30 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 19:04:22 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 19:24:06 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@12.41.103.244) joined #forth 19:24:26 fixed a bug in isforth's fsave last night that prevented it from running under certain kernel versions 19:25:06 screwed up the elf file format a little and i guess they changed the way elf files are parsed in the linux kernel breaking things 19:25:16 erm not isforth any more - i mean x4 19:47:36 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 20:37:36 --- quit: mark4 (Quit: Leaving) 20:43:06 --- join: tabemann (~tabemann@2602:30a:c0d3:1890:ed08:95af:b87f:6b5c) joined #forth 20:49:18 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@h109-187-251-146.dyn.bashtel.ru) joined #forth 21:00:10 --- quit: Monev (Quit: EXIT) 21:26:59 --- join: smokeink (~smokeink@118.131.144.142) joined #forth 21:45:40 --- quit: pierpal (Quit: Poof) 21:45:57 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host53-189-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 21:59:53 --- quit: darithorn (Quit: Leaving) 22:06:31 --- join: proteusguy (~proteus-b@180.183.135.187) joined #forth 22:06:31 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 22:20:29 twiddling, twiddling... Makes me want to add even more twiddling. 22:23:01 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 22:39:10 --- join: proteusguy (~proteus-b@180.183.135.187) joined #forth 22:39:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 22:51:27 --- quit: reepca (Remote host closed the connection) 22:57:19 --- join: reepca (~user@208.89.170.250) joined #forth 23:25:00 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 23:54:26 --- join: dave0 (~dave0@193.060.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/19.01.17