00:00:00 --- log: started forth/19.01.10
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01:20:09 <dave0> re
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03:07:45 <the_cuckoo> woot - was right - have an elegant solution to sandbox stack instances (a primary stack can create multiple secondary stacks - the dictionaries, variables and parsing state is unique to each, but the actual data can be shared [or not])
03:08:07 <the_cuckoo> https://gitlab.com/lilo_booter/rpany/blob/master/bin/rpany-shell
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08:48:21 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Yall think it's a bad habit to just name some words F and G and H because they perform such little work?
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08:50:28 <PoppaVic> works for auto C vars - not for forth. Unless you are writing an editor that see's a KEY as a word
08:50:39 <PoppaVic> sees
08:50:56 <PoppaVic> see? sea.. sea-saw
08:51:23 <WilhelmVonWeiner> `: F ( c c-addr -- f) 1+ c@ = ;` is such a meaningless word though
08:51:48 <PoppaVic> yes, 'F' is just too vapid
08:52:22 <WilhelmVonWeiner> what would you call it
08:52:55 <WilhelmVonWeiner> might just inline it
08:52:59 <PoppaVic> not sure where you use it or why - so, wouldn't matter
08:54:34 <PoppaVic> What is it DOING for you?
08:55:29 <WilhelmVonWeiner> `: G ( c c-addr -- c-addr f) swap over F ;`
08:55:47 <PoppaVic> man, you have issues
08:57:40 <WilhelmVonWeiner> elaborate
08:58:23 <PoppaVic> If you are going to refine, pick useful noise to create new, hopefully reusable, idioms.
09:01:41 <WilhelmVonWeiner> En anglais?
09:01:42 <PoppaVic> is there any need elsewhere/later for:  : c@? swap over  1" c@ = ;
09:01:53 <PoppaVic> 1"/1+
09:02:35 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Probably not, but it keeps the intent more obvious.
09:03:05 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I inlined it into G anyhow. Still don't have a name for G, now G is F.
09:06:28 <PoppaVic> and it's still "=c@"
09:08:28 <WilhelmVonWeiner> that a word?
09:09:37 <PoppaVic> well, look at what it does.. the only issue is you've also mixed in non-destructive to the address. But, that describes what it does: "fetch a byte from a1 to compare to c1 - leave a flag"
09:10:12 <PoppaVic> so it's akin to =0 or <>0 and friends
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09:10:41 <PoppaVic> consume the address and it's exactly as stated
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09:11:25 <crc> `swap over` is `tuck`
09:11:50 <WilhelmVonWeiner> didn't realise tuck was core
09:12:01 <PoppaVic> crc: yeah, when around it's nice
09:12:56 <crc> WilhelmVonWeiner: CORE EXT, 6.2.2300
09:13:10 <PoppaVic> WilhelmVonWeiner: that's part & parcel of refinement/decomposition - he just gave you a new word - which either you can use now or add and still refine that idiom
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10:08:08 <john_cephalopoda> Uhrg... I just can't get Bresenham's line algorithm right -_-
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10:23:52 <pointfree> just use a few variables to start out
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10:34:16 <pointfree> john_cephalopoda: Are you implementing anti-aliasing?
10:37:41 <john_cephalopoda> Nope.
10:37:53 <john_cephalopoda> I just want to get a line on the screen. That's all.
10:42:47 <john_cephalopoda> It is _so_ annoying.
10:46:35 <john_cephalopoda> In C I'd have implemented this 100 times by now >:/
10:46:58 <Zarutian> john_cephalopoda: what is so annoying in particular?
10:47:10 <zy]x[yz> why wouldn't you just put it in a function and call it 100 times
10:48:44 <john_cephalopoda> Zarutian: I just can't get Bresenham's line drawing algorithm right. It has half a dozen variables and I am trying to avoid using those.
10:49:28 <Zarutian> john_cephalopoda: start with those variables then eliminate one at a time.
10:51:41 <MrMobius> [13:46] <john_cephalopoda> In C I'd have implemented this 100 times by now >:/
10:51:47 <MrMobius> probably true for most things here
10:51:52 <MrMobius> :P
10:53:53 <john_cephalopoda> Pff, maybe :þ
11:01:22 <WilhelmVonWeiner> if you right shorter words, your stack becomes easier to manage. 
11:04:03 <WilhelmVonWeiner> also if you're using seperate x and y values, try keeping them stored as if the framebuffer was a flat array and use /MOD to get x and y when you need either
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11:04:34 <john_cephalopoda> That's not a problem.
11:05:33 <john_cephalopoda> I just have no clue what to do with all the delta-X, delta-Y and x0, x1, y0, y1...
11:05:38 <john_cephalopoda> Maybe I should make it a matrix...
11:05:49 <john_cephalopoda> Hmmm...
11:06:09 <mark4> you doing line drawing with breshenham?
11:06:59 <john_cephalopoda> mark4: I'm planning to do that.
11:07:02 <WilhelmVonWeiner> well one thing to do is p0 = y0 * w + x0
11:07:27 <WilhelmVonWeiner> that way you're just storing dx, dy, p0, p1...
11:07:56 <john_cephalopoda> As soon as there are more than 3 elements on the stack that have to be kept in mind, things are blowing up.
11:08:36 <WilhelmVonWeiner> maybe you should split your word up into shorter words that have easier to follow logic
11:12:07 <john_cephalopoda> Using matrices as input might be the best solution.
11:12:11 <john_cephalopoda> Only two values on the stack.
11:12:29 <WilhelmVonWeiner> that sounds convoluted
11:13:05 <john_cephalopoda> Not really. I'm using matrices for everything anyway.
11:30:25 <WilhelmVonWeiner> what does the `i` in `ix` or `iy` stand for
11:30:35 <WilhelmVonWeiner> with bresenham
11:58:43 <WilhelmVonWeiner> oh derp, nevermind lol
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12:22:28 <Croran> I'm reading through 'starting forth' and I wonder if I'm misunderstanding this question.
12:22:41 <Croran> from chapter 2
12:22:53 <Croran> Convert the following postfix expression to infix:
12:22:53 <Croran> 1. b - b a + /
12:23:09 <Croran> wouldn't the first - result in an error since there's only one item on the stack?
12:28:18 <john_cephalopoda> Croran: Where exactly is it?
12:28:32 <Croran> https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/2-stack-manipulation-operators-arithmetic/
12:28:35 <Croran> 'quizzie 2-a'
12:29:19 <john_cephalopoda> Convert the following postfix expressions to infix: 
12:29:22 <john_cephalopoda> 6. a b - b a + / 
12:29:45 <Croran> 6?
12:30:06 <Croran> it's 1. in my browser and it states 'b - b a + /'
12:30:09 <john_cephalopoda> Yeah, 1. is "infix to postfix"
12:30:22 <john_cephalopoda> Maybe you are looking at an older version with a typo
12:30:49 <Croran> are you looking at the page i linked? or you have a different source?
12:31:02 <john_cephalopoda> I think I have a different edition.
12:31:12 <john_cephalopoda> Since mine has an a added, it is probably a newer one.
12:31:25 <Croran> ah ok. i guess it's just an error then
12:31:26 <Croran> thanks
12:32:49 <crc> it should be:   1. a b - b a + /
12:32:52 <crc> https://1scyem2bunjw1ghzsf1cjwwn-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Starting-FORTH.pdf
12:49:15 <Croran> I think question 4  on 'quizzie 2-b' is a bit of a trick question given the book hasn't covered floating point. lol.
12:57:03 <WilhelmVonWeiner> 4?
12:57:06 <WilhelmVonWeiner> did you mean 5
12:58:12 <Croran> no. i mean the one with the 0.5
12:58:14 <Croran> '0.5 ab / 100'
12:58:44 <Croran> they give the answer as '* 200 /'
12:59:03 <WilhelmVonWeiner> yep
12:59:08 <Croran> which is fine i guess, it's basic math, but it was an unexpected math quiz
12:59:19 <WilhelmVonWeiner> fixed point is important in forth
12:59:19 <Croran> as opposed to learning forth
13:00:23 <WilhelmVonWeiner> well the question is really asking "how do you do this floating point calculation in fixed point"
13:00:39 <WilhelmVonWeiner> not even in fixed point really just "with integers"
13:01:13 <Croran> yeah going back, they make it clearer in the PDF with a parenthetical note on 'quizzie 2a' but i started on the web version and they've taken out that context...
13:01:59 <WilhelmVonWeiner> that happens again
13:02:01 <WilhelmVonWeiner> and again
13:02:05 <WilhelmVonWeiner> and probably, agagin.
13:02:10 <WilhelmVonWeiner> agagagain
13:03:57 <Croran> I'm only working off the PDF now, but it's a bit of a shame since it looks like a faxed copy of a typewritten doc
13:05:02 <WilhelmVonWeiner> sounds like an accurate scan
13:05:35 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I love the font in SF
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13:24:06 <Croran> page 53 defines 2OVER as  (d1 d2 -- d1 d2 d1), but when i use it with 3 items on the stack it underflows...
13:25:05 <Zarutian> Croran: that is because it expects doubles. Each such takes two items on stack.
13:26:36 <Zarutian> 2OVER actually has ( d1_hi d1_lo d2_hi d2_lo -- d1_hi d1_lo d2_hi d2_lo d1_hi d1_lo ) stack effect
13:27:06 <Croran> hmm ok. was that an older version of the forth standard?
13:27:11 <Croran> this seems to conflict
13:27:11 <Croran> http://lars.nocrew.org/forth2012/core/TwoOVER.html
13:27:12 <crc> also, the scan is from 1981, some words will be different in modern Forth
13:28:07 <crc> just a different notation. d1 is a pair of numbers (x1 x2), d2 is also a pair (x3 x4)
13:28:56 <Zarutian> Croran: see no conflict there, just a different notation like crc said
13:31:49 <Croran> ah ok i understand
13:33:59 <Zarutian> s/items/cells/
13:34:36 <Zarutian> a cell was usually 16 bit (before the 32 bit era)
14:22:04 <Zarutian> hokay, does ++y*2+1 in C translate to y 1+! y @ 2 * 1 + \ ?
14:25:54 <jackdaniel> Is "?" at the end part of the sentence? :-)
14:26:50 <Zarutian> yes
14:29:53 <Zarutian> the \ comments to end of the line and I do not like to be ambigous about where the forth code ends
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14:31:59 <dave0> hi
14:52:30 <siraben> I never really liked seeing ++y*2+1 type expressions in C. Relies on order of operations and it's easy to miss something
14:52:58 <siraben> Forth is unambiguous, so that'a good.
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16:11:26 <rdrop-exit> Good morning Forthwrights :)
16:22:39 <crc> Good evening rdrop-exit 
16:23:15 <rdrop-exit> Hello crc :)
16:35:36 <john_cephalopoda> Hey rdrop-exit 
16:38:18 <rdrop-exit> Hi John!
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18:25:10 <mark4> siraben: any kind of compound statement in c is a freeking nightmare, you cant guarantee order of operations with different compilers on the same architecture, nevermind different architectures
18:31:49 <ttmrichter> mark4: There was a serious error in your statement.
18:31:59 <ttmrichter> s/any kind of compound statement in //
18:32:04 <ttmrichter> Fixed it for you.
18:32:06 <ttmrichter> ;)
18:32:08 <PoppaVic> Use more parens.
18:32:32 <mark4> x+++++x
18:32:35 <mark4> nuff sed
18:32:39 <PoppaVic> heh
18:33:00 <mark4> ++x+x++ !
18:33:36 <PoppaVic> never was interested in the obfuscation-shitfests
18:34:11 <mark4> the point isnt obfuscation, its undefined behafiour
18:34:41 <PoppaVic> "don't do that" - I won't argue it, nor defend it - I just code and go.
18:35:34 <mark4> the problem with c in my opinion is that there are more ways to shoot yourself in the foot with it than almsot any other language
18:36:05 <mark4> or why else would you have highly complicated interview questions on c coding isms
18:37:17 <PoppaVic> oh, that's simple: they want java or c++ programmers - or php ;-)
18:38:08 <zy]x[yz> any interview thst involves complicated programming questions in any language is already fundamentally flawed
18:38:27 <mark4> go apply for a job at google lol
18:38:31 <mark4> ewwww
18:38:39 <zy]x[yz> no
18:38:45 <mark4> :)
18:38:52 <PoppaVic> why in the hell would I want to apply to guzzle?
18:39:13 <rdrop-exit> Never apply for any job
18:39:21 <zy]x[yz> i know someone who works at google and he keeps pinging me every 4-6 months asking me to come work there and i'm like no i'm good thx
18:39:32 <mark4> lol
18:39:45 <mark4> dont go there if you are a conservative thats for sure
18:39:46 <PoppaVic> he has not had enough of the kool-aid - the calls will end
18:40:17 <zy]x[yz> yeah it's also in washington... not particularly interested in moving
18:40:33 <mark4> zy]x[yz: where are you?
18:40:40 <zy]x[yz> georiia
18:40:49 <mark4> georgia?
18:40:51 <zy]x[yz> except the one that's spelled right
18:40:57 <zy]x[yz> damn touchscreen
18:40:58 <rdrop-exit> The country?
18:41:05 <mark4> im in alpharetta georgia
18:41:11 <mark4> u.s.a
18:41:13 <zy]x[yz> wooooaaahhh me too
18:41:16 <mark4> wait
18:41:18 <mark4> srsly?
18:41:21 <zy]x[yz> yeah
18:41:36 <mark4> im working a contract for landis + gyr here
18:41:39 <zy]x[yz> asl
18:41:45 <mark4> asl ?
18:41:58 <PoppaVic> hahahahahahahaha
18:42:16 <PoppaVic> "age-sex-location"
18:42:22 <mark4> oh lol
18:42:40 <mark4> i forgot that one, not heared it since like the 90's lol
18:43:23 <PoppaVic> well, straighten yer blouse and fluff yer hair ;-)
18:43:36 <rdrop-exit> Advanced Squad Leader
18:44:09 <PoppaVic> I always approve of squad-leaders in the forefront.
18:45:29 <jn__> still better than ACPI Machine Language :P
18:45:59 <jn__> eh, i mean ACPI Source Language of course
18:47:55 <rdrop-exit> Arithmetic Shift Left (6502)
18:48:13 <jn__> nice one
18:51:39 <PoppaVic> no one remembered "American Sign Language"? man..
18:52:21 <rdrop-exit> I signed it, rather than typing it
19:04:49 <ttmrichter> rdrop-exit: 6502 and, like, 9/10 of the other instruction sets out there.  :)
19:05:28 <zy]x[yz> wtf is an arithmetic shift left
19:06:04 <PoppaVic> save-sign bit, <<
19:06:13 <zy]x[yz> oh, right
19:06:28 <zy]x[yz> i don't know why that wasn't obvious
19:09:03 <rdrop-exit> Some ISAs use SAL
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21:17:50 <tabemann> okay, wordlist handling is revamped!
21:18:15 <tabemann> aside from the linked lists of words in the dictionary, wordlists are no longer part of the hashforth core
21:18:47 <tabemann> even when words are created by : or create, the linked lists are established in hashforth assembly code
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