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02:01:03 <tp> G'day forthers, hi ttmrichter, cratuki, yunfan , Zarutian  ... long time no chat!
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02:26:31 <tp> t 27.4C  ok. <-- now reading a LMT01 two wire temperature sensor with Mecrisp-Stellaris Forth
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03:26:50 <ttmrichter> tp: Hey, Terry.
03:29:33 <tp> hey hey ttmrichter ! merry xmas :)
03:31:24 <tp> ttmrichter, I've made some youtube videos now, nothing fancy tha last one was how to use Gnuscreen to clone a mecrisp-stellaris image hot off the mcu
03:45:38 <tp> nighto!
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06:14:38 <WilhelmVonWeiner> siraben: are there any good TI84 emulators for *nix systems?
06:15:10 <WilhelmVonWeiner> FLOSS, of course
06:15:46 <siraben> WilhelmVonWeiner:  there's http://lpg.ticalc.org/prj_tilem/
06:15:55 <siraben> But building it was non-trivial
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08:04:57 <the_cuckoo> hmm - considering something more high level again - purely interactive stuff... auto completion - in your shell, what is in the command buffer dictates the applicable uses which follow (and this can be trained to go down to the level of switches and other tool specific stuff) - considering the same based on what is currently on top of the stack - an int, and you can do pick, roll, abs, etc - two ints and you
08:04:58 <the_cuckoo> can do +, -, /, * etc - assuming you have the metadata introduced somewhere, a means to derive applicable words which could follow should be doable
08:06:43 <the_cuckoo> dunno if it's worth it, but as a means to learn, debug and interact with a stack environment, i think it would probably work
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10:52:24 <`presiden> the_cuckoo, that sounds like good idea
10:55:40 <`presiden> looking bat at IPython, pgcli, etc. "interactive" repl can be quite good too
10:56:29 <`presiden> tho, for interactive in this case might just be completion stuff
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11:16:06 <the_cuckoo> `presiden: yeah - think it could be kinda fun - but back to work tomorrow, so just going to wind up my holiday project this evening (won't be completely as planned, but far better than i expected anyway :))
11:18:24 <the_cuckoo> https://gitlab.com/lilo_booter/rpany <- quite a lot of changes since i last posted this link - most of the experimental stuff placed in 'vocabs' - still lacks a proper parser (so haven't got round to conditional branching, loops or associated optimisations)
11:22:49 <WilhelmVonWeiner> shalom forthers
11:22:55 <the_cuckoo> hey WilhelmVonWeiner 
11:24:13 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I don't know much about c++ but I like how you've made that weird << / >> syntax useful
11:25:54 <the_cuckoo> :) - yeah - think they work well for push and pop
11:28:32 <the_cuckoo> i rather wish you could extend them though - i mean, it's kinda dumb to override standard language stuff (like <<, >>, +, - etc) - but adding shit like -->, >{, }< - man that would make the code look really ... umm... weird... but done right... kinda nice i think
11:29:26 <the_cuckoo> and really, that cout << thing was always rubbish anyway
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11:54:39 <tabemann> back
11:55:08 <tabemann> hey guys
11:55:14 <WilhelmVonWeiner> what up tabemann 
11:55:29 <tabemann> been working on my #forth proof-of-concept, hashforth
11:55:52 <tabemann> you?
11:56:10 <WilhelmVonWeiner> learning Flask, a python framework
11:56:26 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I have some web ideas I want to be able to design without paying someone else
12:16:16 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: What kind of web ideas?
12:18:24 <WilhelmVonWeiner> the kind that can make money if well-implemented
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13:33:34 <Zarutian> WilhelmVonWeiner: not yet another facebook clone, yes?
13:37:47 <john_cephalopoda> Mastodon ftw.
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13:43:21 <john_cephalopoda> Have a dog: https://thecutecuttlefish.org/tmp/woof4.png
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14:51:15 <the_cuckoo> you know - i'm looking at this - https://gitlab.com/lilo_booter/rpany/blob/master/include/rpany/vocab/stack.hpp - and thinking.. that isn't all that bad - if i could remove the boilerplate crap, it'd be a fairly succinct definition
14:53:51 <the_cuckoo> and also, the dump is a tad ugly :)
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16:29:54 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Zarutian: No, a twitter clone.
16:30:15 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Like Gab or Mastodon but for chefs and kitchen staff
16:30:59 <WilhelmVonWeiner> To get in you have to give the secret kitchen handshake to another member 
16:48:25 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I'm going to get out the habit of WRITING EVERYTHING IN UPPERCASE
16:48:28 <WilhelmVonWeiner> it's quite antiquated
16:48:41 <WilhelmVonWeiner> except when I use a forth where I have to, I suppose
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18:08:20 <rdrop-exit> Hello Forthwrights
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18:28:14 <Kumool> WilhelmVonWeiner: did you get how to use x// btw?
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18:32:36 <dave0> hi
18:34:56 <rdrop-exit> Hi Dave0
18:35:09 <dave0> hi rdrop-exit 
18:38:30 <tabemann> hey
18:38:38 <rdrop-exit> Hi Tabemann
18:38:40 * tabemann is busy debugging hashforth
18:38:44 <dave0> hi tabemann 
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19:57:53 <siraben> Anyone used a structure other than linked lists for the dictionary?
19:58:55 <rdrop-exit> Can, although linked list usual
19:59:07 <rdrop-exit> *Can be
20:00:07 <rdrop-exit> I never bothered with anything else
20:00:24 <PoppaVic> no reason to complicate it, unless you want a fullblown host-side database.
20:00:46 <rdrop-exit> e.g. HolonForth
20:01:01 * proteusguy is using an executable call graph for his new language. for a regular forth I don't see a need for anything except the linked list.
20:01:38 <rdrop-exit> http://www.holonforth.com
20:01:48 * dave0 clicks
20:02:00 <proteusguy> What's the tl;dr on holoforth, rdrop-exit ?
20:02:26 <gabc> To quote the webpage: I mean, source code in files; how quaint, how seventies! - Kent Beck
20:02:42 <rdrop-exit> He uses a database to store source and code
20:02:54 <PoppaVic> I remember holon ;-)
20:03:35 <proteusguy> trying to do some kind of small talk model? I recall those as being a nightmare to maintain with a team of more than 1 person!
20:04:30 <rdrop-exit> Holon is basically a databased umbilical Forth IDE
20:04:44 <proteusguy> wow it really does look just like the smalltalk environments!
20:04:49 <proteusguy> fascinating
20:06:38 <rdrop-exit> IIRC he rewrote the original DOS-based IDE in TCL
20:10:11 <PoppaVic> looks like it's still intel-only. Also DOS. oh well ;-)
20:10:36 <rdrop-exit> I think he may be retired now, but he still participates in the ForthHub discussion group
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20:12:08 <rdrop-exit> The old one is DOS, the new one is TCL-based IIRC
20:17:03 <rdrop-exit> Personally I prefer old-fashioned block based umbilical Forths, but I can understand the attraction of his system.
20:18:40 <PoppaVic> I always wanted to see how it "felt".
20:18:59 <PoppaVic> as, I have been muttering about code-in-dbms for years
20:20:05 <rdrop-exit> I find it too constraining.
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20:22:35 <rdrop-exit> Kudos though for sustaining a long career programming embedded systems with his own personal Forth environment.
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20:30:54 <rdrop-exit> Have to walk the dogs, catch you guys later. Keep on Forthin'
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21:13:40 <rdrop-exit> back
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22:03:17 <`presiden> what inspire y'all to implement your own forth?
22:04:15 <`presiden> it seems to me that most people that talks in this channel at least has done that
22:20:05 <rdrop-exit> It's hard to explain
22:21:37 <dave0> i'm doing it to learn forth
22:22:11 <dave0> Forth has lots of interesting ideas and it's a welcome change from c
22:23:09 <siraben> Just read the section on structure words
22:23:11 <siraben> https://forth-standard.org/standard/facility/BEGIN-STRUCTURE
22:23:29 <siraben> Quite interesting, has a reference implementation too
22:27:17 <rdrop-exit> I've never bothered with structure words.
22:28:20 <dave0> rdrop-exit: have you ever run out of characters for a word? made a word that is >31 chars long?
22:28:46 <rdrop-exit> No
22:29:10 <dave0> ok thanks
22:32:05 <rdrop-exit> Although my host Forth can handle names up to 255 chars
22:37:02 <rdrop-exit> But that's only for the convenience of not having to unpack the name length
22:38:03 <dave0> 31 is nice and small for an array of words indexed by length
22:38:36 <rdrop-exit> Yes, for a target Forth should be plenty
22:39:01 <rdrop-exit> Wait, what do you mean "an array of words"
22:39:24 <rdrop-exit> I thought you were speaking of the length of a word's name
22:39:39 <dave0> array of pointers-to-a-linked-list of words
22:40:04 <rdrop-exit> What's that for?
22:40:45 <dave0> to speed up searching the dictionary for a word
22:41:08 <dave0> array[1] would be a pointer to a linked list of all the words that are length==1
22:41:09 <rdrop-exit> Is your current search too slow?
22:41:23 <dave0> i haven't implemented a search yet lol
22:41:38 <dave0> but i will profile it when i do
22:42:24 <dave0> at the moment it's just an idea
22:42:39 <rdrop-exit> Searching happens when your interpreting and compiling source
22:42:46 <rdrop-exit> *you're
22:43:43 <rdrop-exit> Search speed should not be a problem unless you have really huge amounts of source, or a huge number of names
22:44:58 <rdrop-exit> In my Forths I interpret one word at a time rather than waiting for a line full.
22:46:03 <dave0> my idea seemed to me to be easy to implement, and if it makes search significantly faster, i would think it's a useful optimization
22:46:37 <rdrop-exit> The complication is only useful if you'll notice the difference.
22:46:39 <dave0> i mean you probably would never notice it
22:46:41 <dave0> yeah
22:47:37 <rdrop-exit> It used to be common to have multiple hash threads, 8 was a common number, to speed up search.
22:48:51 <rdrop-exit> On a PC I don't think it's worth the bother.
22:49:27 <proteusguy> if word lookup is a significant factor in your environment then you're got a lot bigger problems to deal with than word search.
22:49:33 <rdrop-exit> On a target you shouldn't have enough words to require it in the first place.
22:50:01 <proteusguy> now if you're implementing runtime pattern matching then you've got an area to focus on.... :-)
22:50:03 <dave0> my good friend knuth reckons a 10% improvement, if easily reached, is never considered marginal
22:50:32 <proteusguy> dave0, if it increases complexity by 1% then it's too expensive.
22:50:49 <proteusguy> if it simplifies your system then go for it!
22:51:23 <dave0> i will thank you! lol
22:52:28 <rdrop-exit> Remember search is done by the outer interpreter loop, i.e. by the outer shell of your program.
22:52:40 <proteusguy> eliminating complexity is always a valuable exercise.
22:53:09 <rdrop-exit> Bugs increase exponentially to the added complexity.
22:53:34 <rdrop-exit> As does maintenance.
22:54:01 <dave0> it would make things interesting cos you wouldn't need to store the length of words with the word header... the length of a word would be implied by which list it is on
22:55:10 <rdrop-exit> The complexity of your MARKER (or FORGET) will be affected
22:57:35 <dave0> oh i didn't think of that
22:58:07 <dave0> but they are rare compared to looking up a word?
22:58:40 <rdrop-exit> Yes, but they are problem prone
23:00:15 <rdrop-exit> Are you having problems with you're outer interpreter keeping up with your typing speed?
23:01:15 <rdrop-exit> ... or are you loading hundreds of megabytes of source?
23:01:38 <rdrop-exit> * your outer interpreter
23:01:38 <dave0> no nothing like that.. it was just an idea that i would like to explore
23:03:47 <rdrop-exit> Well, the common method was hash threads, usually 8 of them IIRC.
23:07:31 <dave0> brb gotta go to the shop
23:10:40 <rdrop-exit> You could look at F83, for an example of a system that used hashing.
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