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04:22:58 <`presiden> Is there exist online viewable list of ANS FORTH words list and it's explanation?
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04:41:39 <corecode> `presiden: https://forthworks.com/forth/standards/DPANS/DPANS.pdf
04:42:12 <corecode> i think i need gdb backtrace viewer
04:52:33 <`presiden> corecode, thanks
04:57:55 <`presiden> I see a few mirror of the draft version too
04:58:04 <`presiden> http://lars.nocrew.org/dpans/dpans.htm
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05:09:53 <corecode> `presiden: are you implementing a forth?
05:20:42 <`presiden> corecode, not yet
05:22:11 <john_cephalopoda> `presiden: Just hang around a bit, you'll have your own forth in no time :D
05:22:53 <`presiden> :)
05:23:14 <`presiden> I alread have stacks and speak RPN :D
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05:51:51 <siraben> `presiden: I'm a fan of https://forth-standard.org/standard/core
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05:52:07 <siraben> Has test cases too
05:52:39 <siraben> I'd say stick with CORE words but don't worry about adding your own
05:53:08 <siraben> When you get around to implementing
05:53:53 <siraben> I recommended you implement it in assembly or if not, C
06:00:46 <`presiden> siraben, oh, that's nice
06:01:19 <siraben> `presiden: any targets in mind?
06:01:27 <siraben> It's easier than you might think to write a forth
06:03:34 <mark4> any forth implemented in c is not forth
06:03:52 <mark4> not unless you write a c compiler as an extension for your meta compiler
06:04:25 <siraben> Yeah C may be too much baggage
06:04:33 <mark4> learn assembler, code your primitives in assembler. write your forth kernel. write extensions to it in forth including an assembler and metacompiler
06:04:52 <mark4> with c you need an FFI which is non trivial
06:05:03 <siraben> `presiden: do you currently know any assembly?
06:06:14 <mark4> asm is simple to learn too unless you try learning it from some MODERN tutorial. best book for x86 assembler tht has ever been written is STILL "The 8086 book, includes the 8088"
06:07:00 <mark4> once you have 16 bit x86 mastered you already know 99.9999999999 percent of 32 bit
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06:08:24 <zy]x[yz> you actually know more than 32 bit since all that segment switching stuff becomes unimportant
06:08:44 <mark4> exactly
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06:09:26 <mark4> unless you are going to do pmode from scratch yourself in which case the segment registers become relevant again
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06:46:55 <`presiden> siraben, ah, no, no concrete plan yet
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06:50:06 <WilhelmVonWeiner> mark4: just ordering that book now
06:50:15 <WilhelmVonWeiner> you typed it with enough conviction, that I believe it
06:50:49 <WilhelmVonWeiner> do I splurge and pay £100 for it new...
06:57:32 <corecode> no
07:10:32 <WilhelmVonWeiner> you're probably right
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08:07:08 <PoppaVic> Real Men code their forth in direct hex, instead of assembler.
08:07:30 <PoppaVic> (the hairy-chested He-man will use panel-switches)
08:08:22 <siraben> relevant xkcd https://www.xkcd.com/378/
08:11:36 <proteusguy> PoppaVic, my first "forthish" implementation was on a Hero-1 robot witha 6809, and I entered the whole thing in hex on the small alpha-numeric keyboard on top of it. :-)
08:12:20 <PoppaVic> proteusguy: I guess that counts then, not quite he-man, though ;-)
08:13:49 <proteusguy> well the only alpha characters were those necessary to support hex a-f.
08:14:43 <PoppaVic> well, the panel-switches were binary - so.. You cheated ;-)
08:15:16 <proteusguy> no panel switches by then.... :-)
08:16:18 <PoppaVic> I disagree, though: C is perfectly fine.. The biggest pain-in-the-dick is getting out from under it's ABI.
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09:11:40 <cratuki> I am confused by something with forth.
09:11:50 <cratuki> I define a function, : field dup constant ;
09:11:58 <WilhelmVonWeiner> a word, yes
09:11:59 <cratuki> then I say "field a" and it defines the field.
09:12:20 <cratuki> I don't understand how this works. Because 'a' is not on the stack yet. There is some silent macro thing going on.
09:12:30 <WilhelmVonWeiner> no
09:12:38 <WilhelmVonWeiner> `constant` parses the next word
09:12:43 <WilhelmVonWeiner> in the input stream
09:12:44 <cratuki> aaah
09:12:53 <WilhelmVonWeiner> how are you learning Forth?
09:12:54 <cratuki> constant does lookahead
09:12:58 <PoppaVic> see constant 
09:12:59 <PoppaVic> : Constant  
09:12:59 <PoppaVic>   (Constant) , ; ok
09:12:59 <PoppaVic> see (constant) 
09:12:59 <PoppaVic> : (Constant)  
09:12:59 <PoppaVic>   header reveal docon: cfa, ; ok
09:13:08 <cratuki> a bit like I play counterstrike - spray and pray
09:13:13 <john_cephalopoda> I'm quite unhappy with lookahead in forth.
09:13:15 <cratuki> (answer to how I am learning)
09:13:19 <WilhelmVonWeiner> cratuki: perhaps you should read Starting Forth
09:13:20 <cratuki> I have a bluepill, and pforth
09:13:32 <john_cephalopoda> It's kinda ugly. I am thinking about not implementing lookahead at all.
09:13:35 <cratuki> I have that. I will go back to it. How many chapters do you recommend I should grind through/
09:13:40 <WilhelmVonWeiner> all of them
09:13:43 <cratuki> ugh
09:13:44 <cratuki> ok
09:13:45 <WilhelmVonWeiner> except the one on blocks
09:13:45 <cratuki> thanks
09:14:02 <PoppaVic> you cannot exist with "lookahead", because that's how serial input works
09:14:08 <WilhelmVonWeiner> john_cephalopoda: it's not really that ugly, it reads the TIB
09:14:31 <WilhelmVonWeiner> no weird hacks or the like
09:15:05 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I prefer how Retro uses string addresses on the stack for constants, but I don't see a mega problem with reading the input buffer
09:15:32 <PoppaVic> "string addresses on the stack" still uses lookahead.
09:15:36 <WilhelmVonWeiner> with a regular Forth it makes sense - means you don't write ` S" WORD" : `
09:15:42 <WilhelmVonWeiner> PoppaVic: not in the same sense, not at all
09:15:49 <PoppaVic> wrong
09:15:54 <WilhelmVonWeiner> it's not parsing the input buffer
09:16:57 <PoppaVic> where do you think the string came from? Stone tablets on the mount?
09:17:46 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Considering "reading in a string" as lookahead I feel is wrong
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09:22:03 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: I'd kina prefer something like »S" SQUARE DUP *" :« over »: SQUARE DUP * ;«
09:22:42 <WilhelmVonWeiner> i'm sorry but that's such an awful idea
09:23:04 * PoppaVic chortles
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09:23:22 <WilhelmVonWeiner> It looks weird and adds a bunch of completely unnecessary overhead
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09:24:30 <john_cephalopoda> Idk...
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09:24:35 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I kinda get what you're saying
09:24:43 <WilhelmVonWeiner> that syntax/approach in particular 
09:24:44 <john_cephalopoda> Look-ahead is just strange imo.
09:25:12 <WilhelmVonWeiner> you could use the kind of interpret/compile switching?
09:25:45 <WilhelmVonWeiner> doing-stuff ] This will be in my word named bengis [ bengis
09:26:17 <WilhelmVonWeiner> no that still wouldn't work because the interpreter dies at "bengis" the first time
09:26:30 <WilhelmVonWeiner> i guess S" bengis" solves the problem
09:28:31 <john_cephalopoda> But S" also does look-ahead.
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09:28:44 * PoppaVic chuckles
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09:30:34 <john_cephalopoda> ';' 32 '*' 'P' 'U' 'D' 32 'E' 'R' 'A' 'U' 'Q' 'S' :
09:31:08 <john_cephalopoda> ';' etc are defined words, which put the letter between the '' onto the stack.
09:31:21 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Ergo, Retro prefixes/colorForth colours
09:31:26 * crc doesn't do lookahead
09:31:29 <john_cephalopoda> : Reads the stack letter for letter, compiles and does so until it reaches ';'
09:31:32 <WilhelmVonWeiner> based crc
09:34:46 <crc> If I had : as a word it'd probably be used like [ code block ] 'wordname :
09:35:13 <WilhelmVonWeiner> That's what I was going to type as an example, then I remembered how : already works lol
09:37:41 <crc> WilhelmVonWeiner: I may add this after the 2019.1 release
09:38:59 <WilhelmVonWeiner> won't : be parsed as a prefix to nothing and break the matrix, though?
09:40:00 <WilhelmVonWeiner> oh, it doesn't. Groovy
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09:42:00 <crc> Not if it's a single character name
09:42:13 <crc> I changed that a while back
09:42:41 <WilhelmVonWeiner> did it simplify the code
09:43:41 <crc> :: const &class:word reclass ;
09:45:10 <crc> not in the kernel, but it made some things shorter and cleaner in the higher levels
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10:37:39 <corecode> ok, now i can print the return stack from gdb
10:37:57 <john_cephalopoda> Yay!
10:52:50 <corecode> not sure how to implement "next"
10:54:47 <john_cephalopoda> corecode: That one has something on "next": http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/moving1.htm
10:54:59 <john_cephalopoda> Not sure if it is the same as the ANS next though
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10:58:21 <WilhelmVonWeiner> NEXT isn't ans afaik
10:58:46 <WilhelmVonWeiner> ANS is application words
10:59:50 <corecode> i mean, gdb next
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11:01:09 <corecode> which needs to consider EXIT, BRANCH, 0BRANCH, and words that return more
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12:24:20 <the_cuckoo> i've never liked the .s and ." thing for strings - in my approach it's simply $ <string> with optional quotes or escapes - and added a printf so you can go: $ "world" $ "hello %s" printf (with evaluation being from left to right on the stack - ie: 1 2 3 $ "%d %d %d" printf gives "1 2 3")
12:24:51 <the_cuckoo> think that's kinda nice myself
12:34:35 <crc> I use s:format for that:
12:35:00 <crc> 'world 'hello_%s s:format s:put
12:35:04 <crc> #1 #2 #3 '%n_%n_%n s:format s:put
12:38:47 <the_cuckoo> nicer :) - but no spaces or other chars by way of escape? and special case for numerics?
12:39:04 <crc> _ is replaced by space
12:39:18 <the_cuckoo> yeah - but then then how do you do an _?
12:39:31 <the_cuckoo> escape with \_ or not possible?
12:40:50 <crc> https://forthworks.com/share/b209b8ed5fa7272e914652cf4de98fee
12:40:54 <crc> yes, \_
12:41:50 <crc> my forth is *very* non-standard. It uses prefixes to guide the interpreter in processing input on a token by token basis
12:42:18 <the_cuckoo> yeah - that makes sense 
12:42:37 <crc> # prefix is used to convert a token into a number, ' to process as a string, : to start a definition, & to get a pointer, etc
12:43:08 <crc> there's no way to parse ahead, so I can't have things like ." or s"
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12:43:40 <the_cuckoo> k - i found the $ with a space following works best for me - shells don't nuke it, so you can pass it as a command line argument
12:44:12 <the_cuckoo> that maybe a poor reason in the grand scheme of things, but it works for me :)
12:44:20 <crc> (and prefixes are just words in the dictionary following a special naming scheme, so they can be added or replaced as desired)
12:46:42 <the_cuckoo> nice - i was considering a set of words which are specified as regex's :) - heavy but could be useful for specifics - never tried it though
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12:49:47 * crc wants to write a regex implementation some day
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12:51:35 <the_cuckoo> specifically, in my video 'language' i have a syntax which is pretty much described as: [ <url> [ name=value ]* [ filter:<filter> [ name=value ]* ]* - urls being files, http, ftp or whatever - filter:.* and even http:.* kinda stuff would be nice (mebbe :))
12:52:58 <the_cuckoo> nice thing about stack based languages is that they're kinda sweet for specifying graphs
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12:56:12 <WilhelmVonWeiner> the_cuckoo: look up colorForth
12:57:21 <the_cuckoo> hmm - i've come across it before, but didn't look into specifics
12:57:33 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Should do so
12:59:10 <the_cuckoo> so much stuff, so little time :)
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15:07:58 <WilhelmVonWeiner> looking at old forth conference proceedings
15:08:30 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Forth information is so wide-spread and oddly distributed
15:11:52 <Zarutian> I suspect FIDONET and other CBBS systems that carried mail and articles between sites might have helped.
15:13:00 * Zarutian now wonders if any CBBSes were Forth based as it is pretty easy to make a multi-user/multi-tasked/multi-programmed Forth
15:13:32 <Zarutian> you know, so the OPs could have used his machine to do stuff even when someone phoned into it.
15:17:31 <tabemann> back
15:17:54 <john_cephalopoda> wb, tabemann 
15:18:02 <tabemann> hey guys
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17:31:04 <corecode> yey
17:31:17 <corecode> my forth finally can compile words and execute them
17:31:40 <john_cephalopoda> Yay!
17:32:26 <PoppaVic> The "best" forth stuff is still buried in the FORML stuff, and frankly, I refuse to spend a penny for such dated/antiquated info.
17:34:02 <corecode> https://github.com/corecode/forth
17:34:11 <corecode> in case somebody wants to explore
17:36:09 <WilhelmVonWeiner> corecode: your dictionary is still a map and you don't seem to have any kind of threading model
17:36:39 <PoppaVic> On the upside, it has a Makefile. It went downhill from there ;-)
17:37:16 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I wouldn't say that, it's the approach I'd expect from someone I imagine hasn't implemented or read a book on implementing a forth before
17:37:45 <corecode> WilhelmVonWeiner: my dictionary is not a map
17:38:05 <corecode> why wouldn't i use a makefile?
17:38:32 <corecode> WilhelmVonWeiner: i think you're talking about the metacompiler?
17:38:53 <WilhelmVonWeiner> `class Forth: ... self.dict = {}` in Forth.py
17:39:12 <corecode> the metacompiler is not meant to be a full forth, it just compiles the forth kernel
17:39:21 <WilhelmVonWeiner> that is forth-asm.py?
17:39:41 <PoppaVic> as soon as I saw .py, and x86.s - I ran screaming ;-)
17:40:11 <corecode> oh forth.py is old and needs to die
17:41:47 <WilhelmVonWeiner> oh I see what you're doing now
17:41:51 <WilhelmVonWeiner> after seeing x86.fs
17:41:54 <WilhelmVonWeiner> cool
17:42:07 <corecode> i tried to write the forth in forth
17:42:12 <WilhelmVonWeiner> as one should
17:42:18 <corecode> but to bootstrap myself, i used python
17:42:24 <corecode> i ended up replicating a lot
17:42:45 <corecode> but then i don't have to rely on gforth being installed and me figuring out how to do all of that
17:42:58 <corecode> in the end, i want to integrate this into an existing C application
17:43:30 <WilhelmVonWeiner> you could've used pforth I suppose
17:43:44 <corecode> instead of writing one?
17:43:49 <WilhelmVonWeiner> yeah
17:43:53 <corecode> yea but what fun is that
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17:44:08 <WilhelmVonWeiner> well, means you get to use Forth as opposed to meta-use Forth sooner
17:44:16 <corecode> yea
17:44:28 <corecode> but now i already trained writing forth
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17:45:57 <corecode> also pforth is much larger
17:47:05 <WilhelmVonWeiner> well, it comes with a ton of ANS words you can leave out
17:47:16 <corecode> and multiple tasks etc
17:52:14 <crc> doesn't build for me (I had to assemble forth-x86.o by hand, as the ASFLAGS weren't being picked up), but it's complaining about a missing main.o
17:52:26 <corecode> oh
17:52:37 <WilhelmVonWeiner> corecode: crc is a FreeBSD user
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17:52:53 <WilhelmVonWeiner> it might hold some relevance
17:52:55 <corecode> what's wrong with ASFLAGS?
17:53:26 <corecode> no canned rule that uses ASFLAGS?
17:53:54 <siraben> crc:  Out of curiosity are you able to install Guile for your operating system and run "make build" for https://github.com/siraben/zkeme80 ?
17:54:03 <crc> WilhelmVonWeiner: true enough, though I may be switching my dev system over to OpenBSD soon.
17:54:04 <siraben> It should be reproducible because I wrote it only in Scheme
17:54:06 <corecode> so right now it only evaluates the first argument, and anything wrong will crash
17:54:22 <WilhelmVonWeiner> crc: OpenBSD is awesome. 
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17:54:48 <corecode> i got tired porting drivers for new hardware
17:54:52 <corecode> so i switched to linux
17:54:54 <WilhelmVonWeiner> And ports are so good, it's nice to be able to install GIMP and all it's dependencies and remove it all perfectly clean without any stress after editing some image
17:55:33 <siraben> crc:  let me know if it works or not
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17:58:18 <crc> siraben: nope: https://forthworks.com/share/1cc451dd5be108144ae23d2998dfb3af
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17:58:39 <siraben> crc:  run "make build"
17:58:50 <siraben> make assumes you have the emulator built and aliased to tilem2
18:01:03 <crc> still fails: https://forthworks.com/share/3254b31d0ac897794cd26d076723a758
18:02:19 <siraben> Huh how are you installing guile?
18:02:23 <crc> WilhelmVonWeiner: I really only need an assembler, C compiler, Fossil, inetd, and Retro :)
18:03:03 <siraben> Is it avaliable from a package manager?
18:03:12 <WilhelmVonWeiner> comes with fvwm, xterm, mg, vi
18:03:18 <WilhelmVonWeiner> everything you need to edit and hack 
18:03:20 <crc> siraben: yes:  pkg install guile
18:03:30 <WilhelmVonWeiner> and then ofc c development tools
18:05:00 <crc> WilhelmVonWeiner: I set up a VPS running it last night and will copy a mirror of my home dir to it over the next week
18:06:14 <siraben> crc:  could you change (ice-9 binary-ports) to (rnrs io ports)
18:06:18 <siraben> in assembler.scm?
18:07:15 <siraben> What version of Guile is packaged for your OS?
18:07:30 <crc> 1.8.8
18:08:33 <crc> https://forthworks.com/share/64bccc217b6afdfa364634d25820754f after making that change
18:09:24 <siraben> Must be an old version thing
18:09:26 <siraben> I'm on 2.2.3
18:11:00 <siraben> 1.8.8 was released in 2010, hm.
18:11:40 <crc> I'll try to build 2.2.3 from source
18:12:00 <siraben> crc:  which package manager is this?
18:12:08 <siraben> Seems odd that Guile is so outdated
18:12:11 <crc> pkg is part of FreeBSD
18:12:15 <WilhelmVonWeiner> it's a BSD
18:12:29 <WilhelmVonWeiner> most ports are somewhat outdated
18:12:35 <crc> uses the FreeBSD Ports packages
18:12:42 <siraben> https://www.freebsd.org/ports/scheme.html
18:12:43 <siraben> Ah
18:12:56 <siraben> crc:  try installing the guile2 package?
18:14:02 <crc> will do
18:19:26 <crc> and that package is broken due to freebsd not having libdl.so (can't even launch guile)
18:25:06 <corecode> ld.so contains the functionality of libdl.so
18:25:12 <crc> trying to build from source now
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18:25:57 <siraben> crc:  ok, hope it works.
18:26:26 <tabemann> hey guys
18:27:21 <crc> hi tabemann 
18:29:30 <siraben> hello
18:38:51 <crc> corecode: iirc, on freebsd, libc has dummy functions for dlopen, dlsym, etc, and ld.so patches these at load time to the actual functions
18:44:18 <crc> No luck. Building guile2 fails with: https://forthworks.com/share/6f3c357a63f063316045946d127e1d80
18:44:53 <siraben> bummer, oh well.
18:45:12 <siraben> hence why we need reproducible builds and environments
18:46:05 <PoppaVic> gnuc: sticks to kids ;-)
18:46:46 * siraben posted a file: zkeme80.rom (1024KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/CtEMevYsBgFoGXKVYMhrYbOc >
18:46:48 <siraben> crc:  here's the rom
18:47:02 <siraben> if you want to try it out the easiest way to do so is https://www.cemetech.net/projects/jstified/
18:47:09 <siraben> and clicking on the "ROM" tab
18:47:19 <siraben> currently there isn't much so when the calculator boots just hit spacebar
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18:56:02 <crc>  Tests run fine, it crashes when I try to use the repl
18:56:27 <siraben> Ah "crash", basically it shuts down
18:56:35 <siraben> I haven't implemented the L part of the REPL
18:56:37 <siraben> lol
18:56:58 <siraben> I need to fix that, not sure what's holding me back in designing the REPL
18:57:05 <crc> No worries, the rest looks good
18:57:12 <siraben> That's good
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19:48:33 <dave0> hi
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20:14:48 <rdrop-exit> Hello Forthwrights :)
20:18:44 <`presiden> sounds similar to forthnite
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