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04:08:27 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Hello all
04:08:52 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Learning to use Sam (Plan 9). It's more esoteric than Acme and not in a good way.
04:46:31 <pointfree> WilhelmVonWeiner: Is there any advantage to Sam over Acme? I use Acme for editing notes and sometimes also a uart forth prompt. Acme plumbing is great too. I often highlight part of a memory address to plumb it and filter a remap for related peripherals or associated registers.
04:55:33 <pointfree> It's been said that Acme is an *integrating* development environment rather than an integrated development environment. It's about the only ide I've seen that follows a unixy philosophy of composability. 
04:55:33 <pointfree> I'd like to do a forthy retake of Acme I think it's the inkling of the composable forthy gui I've been searching for.
05:07:28 <WilhelmVonWeiner> sam id more ed-like.
05:07:53 <WilhelmVonWeiner> so the use of "structural regex" combined with ed and a proto-acme
05:08:34 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I like using regex in it more than in Acme because acme means you have to write it and pass it to the Edit command, so a lot of mouse movement and checking your buffers and that
05:09:52 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Sam does have the plumber, redirection etc just like acme too, so you can redirect/pipe a range to a program
05:10:33 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Really I'd say it depends on if you want to use the mouse or keyboard more. Since with Sam, you can still editr directly into a buffer acme-window style, it's just sans the mouse chording.
05:12:57 <WilhelmVonWeiner> later today I'm writing a CHIP-8 interpreter in Forth and Retro, I'm going to do so in Sam and determine whether I like they keyboard-focused or mouse-focused editor style more. Sam does not have commands like win/awd.
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05:19:38 <pointfree> WilhelmVonWeiner: Well I've got this updated version of Sam installed https://github.com/deadpixi/sam
05:22:25 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Oh, I'm using the version from plan9port.
05:28:04 <WilhelmVonWeiner> With all those additions you may like vis (http://martanne.github.io/vis)
06:05:39 <john_cephalopoda> Hmm, x86 assembly is pretty horrible.
06:08:19 <dave0> i've got some tight x86 code
06:08:47 <dave0> and a fast 128 bit by 128 bit divide (25% faster than gcc)
06:09:58 <dave0> it took a while to write, and then i found out i wouldn't need it anyway
06:10:07 <john_cephalopoda> I am trying to write a basic x86 assembler in gforth right now, so I can write a Forth in assembly and compile it with itself eventually.
06:10:20 <dave0> cool
06:11:02 <john_cephalopoda> I am already able to compile a multiboot header and it boots in qemu. Now I only have to generate code that does something.
06:11:05 <dave0> is it going to be reverse polish, like forth is?
06:11:32 <john_cephalopoda> Yes.
06:11:44 <dave0> nice
06:12:00 <john_cephalopoda> It will look like "EAX 12 MOVI" once it's done.
06:12:41 <dave0> i dig how it's automatically a macro assembler just cos it's forth
06:13:46 <dave0> i like to rename the registers so it's more descriptive.. like TOS instead of EBX for top of stack register
06:15:11 <dave0> and you could do make : NEXT LODSL EAX JMP ;
06:33:16 <john_cephalopoda> Oooh, I just found out why my program doesn't work as intended.
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06:39:13 <john_cephalopoda> Oh, wow.
06:39:16 <john_cephalopoda> Things happen.
07:12:35 <pointfree> https://www.reddit.com/r/Forth/comments/a9om1d/programming_a_problemorientedlanguage/
07:13:00 <john_cephalopoda> Ok, only a little more work and the assembler will be done :D
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07:21:36 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I would just have MOV EAX, 12 where MOV reads ahead in the current line
07:22:51 <WilhelmVonWeiner> pointfree: reading the comments, it's interesting how people dismiss the basic principle out of hand
07:25:40 <pointfree> The comments read like defensiveness
07:26:48 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Whenever Forth comes up, they always seem to. People who've never written it can have a lot of opinions on it
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07:49:40 <Zarutian> pointfree; yeah, it is like they have invested in something that is crappy but do not want to admit it.
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08:15:07 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Is there a way to name constants during execution?
08:16:09 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Constantly I do `:NONAME 10 0 DO I CONSTANT LOOP ; EXECUTE V0 V1 V2...` but hand writing V0-F seems like it can be shortcut
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08:28:47 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: Hmm, how did you do nested IF-THEN without nesting but by using RDROP?
08:29:21 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: In assembly I have to check for a few dozen registers and nesting the statements is ugly.
08:30:32 <WilhelmVonWeiner> INstead of your IF..THEN you have a word which RDROPs out of the the calling word
08:30:58 <WilhelmVonWeiner> and you just RDROP as many words as you want to escape out of 
08:33:17 <john_cephalopoda> https://bpaste.net/show/cbe5eae0ac08
08:34:26 <john_cephalopoda> This code is obviously incorrect. I'd like to leave the REGCHECK function when one of the IFs was executed.
08:34:31 <WilhelmVonWeiner> : AL? DUP AL = IF DO_STUFF DROP RDROP THEN ;
08:34:31 <WilhelmVonWeiner> ...etc...
08:34:31 <WilhelmVonWeiner> : REGCHECK    AL? AH? BL? BH? ;
08:35:17 <john_cephalopoda> So I have to define an AL? function?
08:35:33 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Yeah, you need a new word to rdrop out of.
08:36:01 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Else you're dropping the return from REGCHECK to it's calling word
08:40:12 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Don't be afraid to write lots of words. It makes following control flow easier, it helps shortcuts long blocks of code, and helps you refactor later on
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09:10:58 <john_cephalopoda> Huh, my code actually ends up being quite pretty.
09:11:14 <john_cephalopoda> I have already got the MOVI commands done.
09:11:15 <WilhelmVonWeiner> http://forth.org/forth_style.html
09:20:42 * Zarutian is thinking about doing desktop-y Forth by doing the RFB protocol (that VNC uses) over stdio
09:21:24 <WilhelmVonWeiner> pipe back and forth with tk's wish
09:22:08 <Zarutian> WilhelmVonWeiner: just you know, I am also an avid Tcl'er so, that isnt much of a challange
09:24:03 * Zarutian has even ported the list indexing procedures (lindex, llength & co) to forth just so he can start making a picol version ontop of Forth (picol being a subset of Tcl)
10:39:52 <proteusguy> john_cephalopoda, your project with your x86 assembler in github anywhere?
10:45:56 <john_cephalopoda> proteusguy: Not yet, just trying to finish the basics.
10:51:19 <john_cephalopoda> I already implemented MOVI (Immediate to register) and MOVR (register to register).
11:00:45 <john_cephalopoda> https://bpaste.net/raw/1f11c80821da
11:01:03 <john_cephalopoda> Above the assembly in Forth, below the disassembly of the resulting file.
11:12:00 <john_cephalopoda> Nice, getting somewhere :D
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11:16:41 <WilhelmVonWeiner> john_cephalopoda: You can enter hex numbers in gforth prefixing them with 0x or the word HEX before your hex integers.
11:21:37 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: I am using the $ prefix for hex words.
12:58:47 <john_cephalopoda> Ok.
13:13:45 <john_cephalopoda> proteusguy: Here's some code:
13:13:59 <john_cephalopoda> https://thecutecuttlefish.org/tmp/asm_x86.fth
13:14:08 <john_cephalopoda> https://thecutecuttlefish.org/tmp/init.fth
13:14:48 <john_cephalopoda> You can then execute it with "qemu-system-x86_64 -kernel kernel"
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13:46:18 <DKordic> Hi learning_.  
13:53:24 <Zarutian> crc: that file access 'device' for nga, it handles fifos okay? ( mkfifo in bash )
13:54:20 <Zarutian> (so long one doesnt do seeks or tells )
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14:01:03 <WilhelmVonWeiner> john_cephalopoda: :NONAME 8 0 DO I CONSTANT LOOP ; EXECUTE EAX ECX EDX EBX etc etc etc
14:02:25 <WilhelmVonWeiner> or since you do that  a lot, make it a words SUCCESSIVE-CONSTANTS ( m n --)
14:02:50 <WilhelmVonWeiner> remember, Forth exists to makeyour life easier
14:07:05 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: Hmm?
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14:07:23 <john_cephalopoda> I don't think that it would be really advantageous to add a loop for those few constants.
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14:34:02 <WilhelmVonWeiner> You duplicate so much code, why?
14:54:01 <crc> Zarutian: it should work ok on fifos
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15:14:34 <john_cephalopoda> https://github.com/jmf/impexus <- proteusguy 
15:16:08 <tabemann> hey guys
15:16:35 <john_cephalopoda> tabemann: Look at the link I just posted. It's an OS project in Forth.
15:20:22 <tabemann> the idea of making an OS in Forth is neat, but I don't think I'd be able to get all the device drives working for anything other than an embedded system (where everything's in the data sheet) or an emulator/virtualization layer
15:20:29 <tabemann> *drivers
15:32:35 <crc> I don't expect to support a lot of hardware with mine; I'd be pretty happy w/keyboard, display, serial, and a block storage device.
15:33:25 <john_cephalopoda> VGA text mode on x86 is trivial.
15:34:20 <john_cephalopoda> Of course writing device drivers will be super-hard, but most hardware isn't really that useful.
15:39:44 <crc> On x86, I have keyboard (from retro4) and text display (from fts/forth) working.
15:41:17 <crc> Adding hard disk support should be easy; I've done that before and can adapt much of the older code. I don't recall if I had done serial before.
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16:40:02 <john_cephalopoda> crc: Text display is ~2 lines of code :þ
16:40:29 <crc> More if you want scrolling, full cursor support, etc
16:40:53 <john_cephalopoda> Well, that's a tiny bit more work, but still relatively trivial.
16:43:09 <crc> Mine is 793 lines of assembly, including extensive comments
16:43:49 <john_cephalopoda> Well, first of all I got to get the Forth part of it all working.
16:43:56 <crc> http://forthworks.com/retro/s/interfaces/native/386.s
16:55:26 <crc> In my case, the Forth part is mostly done. I need to write some bridge code for the VM to be able to read/write raw memory and use the I/O ports, but that shouldn't take long. Then, adapting for 64-bit, and finally port to ARM...
16:57:56 <john_cephalopoda> I wrote the assembler itself in Forth.
16:58:18 <john_cephalopoda> But I've never written a Forth, so I'll have to see how to best do it.
16:59:58 <john_cephalopoda> I will have to define low-level Forth words somehow and then start evaluating stuff...
17:00:57 <WilhelmVonWeiner> You should check out Chuck's book.
17:01:21 <john_cephalopoda> Which one?
17:01:59 <crc> And look at some small models (eforth, camelforth come to mind)
17:02:40 <WilhelmVonWeiner> john_cephalopoda: I'm pretty sure he only has one. 
17:04:30 <john_cephalopoda> I am reading through "Moving Forth" right now.
17:06:27 <WilhelmVonWeiner> https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Problem-Oriented-Language-internals/dp/1983362565/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1545872756&sr=8-1&keywords=Problem+Oriented+Language
17:08:43 <crc> Or http://forth.org/POL.pdf for a free PDF of that
17:09:06 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Oh, yeah. It's just I'm on amazon at the moment, lol.
17:20:22 <john_cephalopoda> Hmm, I've skipped halfway through it, nothing really interesting yet.
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17:40:59 <proteusguy> john_cephalopoda, thanx I'll check it out!
17:42:21 <WilhelmVonWeiner> halfway through which?
17:43:14 <john_cephalopoda> Through problem-oriented programming
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17:48:55 <rdrop-exit> Hello Forthwrights :)
17:49:19 <john_cephalopoda> Hey rdrop-exit 
17:49:35 <rdrop-exit> Hi John
17:51:25 <rdrop-exit> I'm recovering from the holiday festivities, though I'd check in while having my first cup.
17:52:31 <john_cephalopoda> I'm working on an OS written in Forth.
17:52:48 <john_cephalopoda> The OS part is coming along nicely, the Forth part, on the other hand...
17:54:40 <rdrop-exit> A general purpose OS?
17:54:53 <john_cephalopoda> That's the plan, yes.
17:55:21 <WilhelmVonWeiner> "Programming a Problem Oriented Language" isn't fiction, so you don't skim to the halfway point and guess what you can glean as interesting
17:55:31 <WilhelmVonWeiner> it's a book on how to write a forth from the inventor of Forth
17:55:31 <john_cephalopoda> rdrop-exit: Here's the code I got so far: https://github.com/jmf/impexus
17:55:48 <WilhelmVonWeiner> if there's nothing interesting in there you may be writing the wrong language
17:56:29 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: Most of the thing in that book were more confusing than helpful to me. In addition to that, I am not really interested that  much in writing forth code but more in writing a forth.
17:58:03 <WilhelmVonWeiner> The latter *is* what the book is about, which is why you avoid skimming technical nonfiction.
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17:59:21 <rdrop-exit> I should reread it, it's been a while.
17:59:57 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: It doesn't even mention ITC and DCT. 
18:00:34 <john_cephalopoda> I am interested in the very low-level details. I want to implement things.
18:01:36 <WilhelmVonWeiner> It does detail the step-by-step implementation of a Forth in a language-agnostic way.
18:02:16 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I'm not sure why it lacks the use of the word "threading" but it is discussed, as it's vital to the implementation.
18:03:12 <rdrop-exit> The best description and comparison of threading approaches is in the book "Interpretation and Instruction Path Coprocessing".
18:03:36 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Ooh, MIT press.
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18:04:17 <rdrop-exit> IIRC POL is more like an proto Thinking Forth
18:04:29 <WilhelmVonWeiner> $15 on Amazon.com... £65 on Amazon.co.uk
18:04:34 <rdrop-exit> * a proto
18:04:42 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Maybe I can find the ebook.
18:04:47 <WilhelmVonWeiner> lol.
18:05:23 <rdrop-exit> I have a hardcopy from when it came out (IAIPC)
18:05:50 <john_cephalopoda> rdrop-exit: "Moving Forth" also discussed threading pretty nicely.
18:05:59 <john_cephalopoda> I think I'll go with DCT for my Forth.
18:06:05 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Hardcopies are nice. Real nice
18:06:39 <john_cephalopoda> True. Reading books on screen is just straining. I usually can't read more than a few pages.
18:07:23 <rdrop-exit> For my Forths I usually go with either SRT/NCI or TTC
18:08:42 <rdrop-exit> The opposite extremes of the threading spectrum are very similar to work with in many ways.
18:09:37 <WilhelmVonWeiner> NCI threading?
18:09:42 <rdrop-exit> The main difference is that with SRT/NCI you're dealing with a physical processor, while with TTC you're dealing with a virtual processor.
18:10:14 <rdrop-exit> SRT/NCI: Subroutine Threading with Native Code Inlining
18:11:18 <rdrop-exit> i.e. Subroutine threading plus the capability of selectively inlining native code
18:14:40 <rdrop-exit> TTC for space and/or portability, SRT/NCI for speed.
18:16:34 <rdrop-exit> bbiab
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18:29:39 <rdrop-exit> back
18:33:55 <tabemann> back
18:35:16 * tabemann is frustrated with his software interrupt functionality
18:41:16 <rdrop-exit> ?
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19:29:56 <dave0> hi
19:30:12 <rdrop-exit> Hi dave0
19:30:29 <dave0> hi rdrop-exit 
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19:49:51 <rdrop-exit> Gotta go, chat again later. Keep on Forthin'
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19:58:58 <dave0> cya rd
19:59:06 <dave0> cya rdrop-exit
19:59:19 <tabemann> hey again
19:59:25 <dave0> hi tabemann 
20:14:58 <siraben> Yay!  Finished QUIT and INTERPRET, now I need to bootstrap the rest of Forth from there :)
20:32:16 <PoppaVic> seems to me you might need: NUMBER, ',' (or 'c,'), '@' (or 'c@') and '!' (or 'c!' ;-)
20:42:06 <tabemann> back
21:52:01 <tabemann> finally - got proper cleanup of outstanding writes working without relying on spinwaits
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23:22:19 <siraben> PoppaVic:  Yep I have all of those
23:22:31 <siraben> And the byte equivalents
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23:40:32 <siraben> Oof running out of space on RAM page 00, I need to figure out how to read flash pages in/out of RAM now
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