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04:54:00 <Zarutian> crc: in http://forthworks.com/retro/s/doc/DEVICES.txt what is m in filesystem device? The mode? Like it was in ngaro?
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05:57:41 <crc> yes, I have constants defined for the modes (file:R, file:R+, file:W, file:A); I'll revise the doc tonight to cover this 
06:27:26 <Zarutian> crc: I am in no hurry, just curious
06:33:24 <DKordic> https://muchweb.me/systemd-nsa-attempt/
06:35:07 <siraben> rdrop-ex1t:  how would I use rdrop exit in a Forth program?  I'm curious
06:45:32 <proteusguy> DKordic, indeed - I don't allow systemd on any of our production systems and none of my personal systems.
06:53:40 <yule_cephalopoda> Lolwut?
06:55:02 <yule_cephalopoda> I am not a systemd fan and use it on none of my computers, but claiming that it is spyware is a bit too much.
06:56:05 <yule_cephalopoda> "AT&T has ties with the US government, thus system V init must contain backdoors!"
06:56:39 <proteusguy> No one's making the claim. They're simply pointing out the very real possibility and how difficult it is to prove otherwise. Even if it's not intentional it's likely to be chock full of security holes that criminals would pay more to keep quiet than any bug reward is gonna pay a good guy.
06:57:33 <proteusguy> Systemd goes very much against the Unix philosophy, is a solution looking for a problem, and got adopted amazingly quick without any real debate on the issue. 
06:57:50 <corecode> why is it against the unix philosophy?
06:58:02 <corecode> then a monolithic kernel is also against unix philosophy
06:58:44 <yule_cephalopoda> proteusguy: The AT&T thing I just said is just as possible and it's difficult to prove otherwise.
06:59:24 <proteusguy> corecode, so you think systemd is perfectly fine idea and architected in a style completely consistent with unix philosophy?
07:00:08 <yule_cephalopoda> I think systemd is built on good intent. They were like "Oh, this sounds like a good idea" and built some ungood software.
07:00:13 <proteusguy> yule_cephalopoda, actually a lot of people have audited AT&T's UNIX and serious changes were made over the years as a result.
07:00:45 <yule_cephalopoda> proteusguy: And a lot of people also audit systemd.
07:01:58 <proteusguy> yule_cephalopoda, ...road to hell. And I also doubt this intent - or competence. It was made by the same numbskull who gave us pulseaudio. nuff said. 
07:02:44 <WilhelmVonWeiner> systemd is just bloatware
07:03:08 <yule_cephalopoda> proteusguy: There is a lot of crappy software out there. Instead of hating against RedHat and Poettering you should maybe rather talk to the people who adopted that system.
07:03:11 <proteusguy> yule_cephalopoda, a) not nearly as many as audited AT&T UNIX; b) AT&T UNIX had no more dependencies than the stdlib. SystemD has root rights to the entire Linux kernal and all ancillary systems. From an attack surface security perspective it's explosive. 
07:03:38 <proteusguy> yule_cephalopoda, I'm not hating against RedHat. I didn't write or post the article. I am very much against systemd.
07:03:47 <WilhelmVonWeiner> What init system needs a DHCP server?
07:03:55 <yule_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: Systemd does ;þ
07:04:25 <WilhelmVonWeiner> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/10/26/systemd_dhcpv6_rce/
07:04:31 <WilhelmVonWeiner> It definitely does not.
07:04:35 <yule_cephalopoda> It's a horrible system with lots of bloat and bad design choices. But people adopted it.
07:05:16 <proteusguy> same as pulseaudio...
07:05:16 <yule_cephalopoda> If I wrote a JSON parser that has to run as root and all web servers would adopt it, then it's not my fault when things go wrong but the fault of the people who adopt that shit.
07:05:34 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Well, it's your fault if the parser's codebase sucks
07:05:53 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Systemd is like an (unintentional?) EEE
07:05:54 <yule_cephalopoda> People aren't lemmings.
07:05:59 <proteusguy> yule_cephalopoda, you have a point. I don't understand what the hell all those distros were thinking honestly. Are they that incompetent with init systems?
07:06:33 * proteusguy is done ranting for the night. Actually have entertaining useful work to do.
07:07:09 <yule_cephalopoda> Honestly, let's create a Forth OS, port it to x86, ARM and RISC-V, write drivers for all devices possible.
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07:08:28 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Or for one device, and just sell that. Like the Aijuboard.
07:11:14 <yule_cephalopoda> Eh, I'd like to have Forth on my laptop, my raspi and my phone.
07:11:26 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Why though?
07:12:35 <yule_cephalopoda> Because all our tools are horrible.
07:12:54 <yule_cephalopoda> I want to have a clean, minimal Forth base and a bunch of nice APIs that allow me to build systems.
07:14:01 <WilhelmVonWeiner> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=817186
07:14:06 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Man, systemd SUCKS!
07:16:37 <zy]x[yz> i really do want to know how poettering still has a job
07:16:48 <zy]x[yz> his response to everything is "working as intended"
07:16:57 <proteusguy> yule_cephalopoda, forth doesn't need an OS... not like a general purpose linux kernel. I would build something a lot more like an exokernel.
07:17:16 <zy]x[yz> i need to start trying this strategy at my job
07:18:06 <WilhelmVonWeiner> zy]x[yz: Say it with enough conviction or assholery (either works)
07:19:58 <yule_cephalopoda> proteusguy: Hmm, maybe.
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07:41:28 <WilhelmVonWeiner> hmm... Awkward stack manipulation, use variables, or a combination of both?
07:41:30 <WilhelmVonWeiner> https://0x0.st/sdxm.f
07:42:06 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Also if anyone has a good 3DUP implementation please let me know
07:42:39 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I don't like using PICK and ROLL
07:48:11 <WilhelmVonWeiner> The implementation without variable usage runs twice as fast in gforth measured using utime (end) - utime (start)
07:49:18 <WilhelmVonWeiner> 1.8x.
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07:54:39 <yule_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: : 3DUP ( a b c --- a b c a b c ) >R 2DUP R> DUP >R ROT ROT R> ;
07:55:03 <WilhelmVonWeiner> R@ is CORE for R> DUP >R
07:56:19 <Kumool> i can't compile retro
07:56:39 <WilhelmVonWeiner> That's #retro
07:57:33 <yule_cephalopoda> That's #retro #nofilter #style #hipster
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07:58:19 <WilhelmVonWeiner> New age fun with a vintage feel
07:58:31 <WilhelmVonWeiner> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVmmYMwFj1I
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13:03:45 <tabemann> hey guys
13:03:55 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Hello brother
13:04:11 <tabemann> I should write docs for search paths
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13:57:55 <WilhelmVonWeiner> pre-implementation?
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14:55:49 <corecode> so, how would i define code words?
14:55:53 <corecode> :CODE?
14:55:57 <corecode> is there a canonical way?
14:56:08 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Yep
14:56:21 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I also recommend https://colorforth.github.io/POL.htm
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15:01:39 <corecode> this one only talks about ;CODE, not :CODE
15:01:49 <corecode> i mean a way to define primitives
15:05:34 <WilhelmVonWeiner> You're defining primitives in high-level Forth?
15:09:58 <WilhelmVonWeiner> You can use ;CODE or CODE .. END-CODE
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15:23:43 <corecode> with ;CODE i can't give it a name
15:23:57 <corecode> or can i?
15:24:09 <WilhelmVonWeiner> http://forth-standard.org/standard/tools/SemiCODE
15:24:24 <corecode> i guess i can't in my compiler
15:24:47 <corecode> (metacompiler)
15:24:59 <corecode> because : directly inserts doCOLON in the codeword
15:26:29 <corecode> i wonder how i could delay that
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16:48:39 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Does anyone else feel weird ALLOTing thousands of cells
16:55:03 <PoppaVic> hence alloc ;-)
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17:03:31 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: What do you allot so many cells for?
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17:21:04 <crc> WilhelmVonWeiner: not if the application needs it
17:22:29 <corecode> nice, my metacompiler can do CODE ... END-CODE
17:22:41 <corecode> which means i can move all my primitives into forth
17:24:14 <corecode> i think now i am close to being able to bootstrap my forth
17:24:18 <corecode> maybe i still need ,
17:38:23 <tabemann> hey guys
17:39:07 <tabemann> I normally use ALLOCATE, not ALLOT, for allocating large blocks of memory
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18:17:25 <dave0> hi
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18:48:34 * FatalNIX does the space loop
18:49:01 <FatalNIX> you know 1 base ! is a bad idea
18:49:09 <FatalNIX> and 0 base!
18:49:44 <FatalNIX> HA
18:50:00 <dave0> the correct error message for divide by 0 is "how?"
18:50:20 <FatalNIX> lol
18:50:51 <FatalNIX> apparently pforth will do a core dump
18:50:56 <FatalNIX> if you divide by 0
18:51:10 <FatalNIX> Floating point exception (core dumped)
18:54:00 <dave0> it is very machine-dependent to catch those exeptions
18:55:46 <dave0> but i think worth it, cos it helps catch bugs
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23:51:48 <proteusguy> Merry Christmas FORTHers!
23:57:28 <ttmrichter> proteusguy: https://i.imgur.com/1mh5W1z.jpg
23:57:36 <ttmrichter> I'll leave it to someone else to RPN that.  :D
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