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00:01:49 <rdrop-exit> Have to go the mall, chat again soon. Keep on Forthin'
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00:02:57 <dave0> cya rdrop-exit
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04:05:11 <WilhelmVonWeiner> rdrop-exit, PoppaVic: Check out libdill/libmill
04:05:29 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Go-style or C-idiomatic coroutines
04:05:38 <WilhelmVonWeiner> using a single #include
04:08:56 <ecraven> cd ..
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05:00:52 <rdrop-exit> Wilhelm: A megabyte of code for coroutines? Holy cow!  =8-O
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06:01:07 * Zarutian is home, sick.
06:02:12 <Zarutian> so how would ya peeps implement an Forth VM using SIMD instructions to support quite a few VM running in 'parallel'?
06:29:25 <zy]x[yz> that would be cool.  i can't imagine how it would work though, forth primitives aren't atomic
06:29:44 <zy]x[yz> it's not like every thread would encounter a NEXT at the same time
06:36:40 <zy]x[yz> also, i was sick over thanksgiving week.  i chose to spend my time much more productively: playing a lot of super metroid
06:59:06 <Zarutian> zy]x[yz: that is why I said Forth _VM_ not just Forth.
07:01:42 <zy]x[yz> but NEXT /is/ the vm, isn't it?
07:02:50 <Zarutian> zy]x[yz: nope, it is a routine, that it often inlined, at the end of implementations of primitives
07:03:38 <zy]x[yz> what would you call the vm, then?
07:05:20 <Zarutian> the virtual ISA implementation underneath the running code. A bit like how BOCHs or snes9x emulator works.
07:06:20 <zy]x[yz> oh, so you really do mean a forth running on top of a vm
07:06:59 <zy]x[yz> sorry, it's confusing in the context of forth because i've seen a lot of forth people refer to the forth machine (namely, next) as a vm
07:17:06 <Zarutian> yeah, that is an error to refer to NEXT as a vm. I would call it indirect control flow linkage
07:18:07 <zy]x[yz> you're sort of talking about a forth running on top of bytecode
07:18:55 <Zarutian> bytecode or something like the canonical dual stackmachine code from "Stackmachines The New Wave" book
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14:52:02 <dave0> hi
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18:34:36 <rdrop-exit> Good morning Forthwrights :)
18:35:11 <verisimilitude> Hello, rdrop-exit.
18:35:40 <rdrop-exit> Hi verisimilitude, how goes your CHIP-8 work
18:35:47 <rdrop-exit> ?
18:35:56 <verisimilitude> I'm planning an article for 2018-12-12.
18:36:02 <verisimilitude> Or, rather, I'll have one then.
18:36:24 <verisimilitude> I've been taking CHIP-8 games submitted to VIPER magazine and documenting them in detail.
18:36:25 <rdrop-exit> It's already 2018-12-12 here
18:36:43 <verisimilitude> I'm in a different timezone.
18:36:53 <rdrop-exit> I assume so :)
18:38:04 <rdrop-exit> Have you decided if you will implement some kind of Forth VM for CHIP-8?
18:38:51 <tabemann> hey guys
18:38:59 <rdrop-exit> Hi tabemann!
18:39:28 <verisimilitude> That's still in the plans, yes, rdrop-exit.
18:39:44 <rdrop-exit> Very cool
18:39:55 * tabemann is reading about Factor and it disgusts me - why take something small and elegant, like Forth, and turn it into a big "multi-paradigm" object oriented language
18:40:10 <verisimilitude> It will likely be a curiosity more than anything, although it may be useful for compressing a program at the cost of speed; I don't yet know.
18:41:48 <rdrop-exit> Tabemann, I feel the same way about most Forth derivatives and experimental Forths I see.
18:42:55 <tabemann> by that, though, my Forth is probably disgusting too, considering that it has plenty of features not necessary in a small purist Forth, even though by no means does it compare with Factor
18:43:42 <rdrop-exit> Your Forth only has to please you
18:45:15 <tabemann> I wonder what proportion of Forths are one-user Forths
18:45:34 <rdrop-exit> Probably quite large, one user or one shop.
18:45:44 <PoppaVic> How many people own multiuser machines?
18:46:29 <tabemann> PoppaVic: I mean in the sense that only one person uses the Forth implementation
18:47:01 <rdrop-exit> I should have said developer rather than user
18:47:14 <PoppaVic> tabemann: Yes, I know - but there is not much call for "multiuser" forth or systems anymore, when you can buy PC's and such far cheaper
18:47:16 <tabemann> like my Forth is a one user Forth because I am the only person who uses that implementaion
18:48:07 <tabemann> contrasted with say, gforth, which is used by many people
18:48:44 <PoppaVic> oh, you mean "POPULAR" not "multiuser"
18:48:59 <rdrop-exit> I doubt gforth is used for many applications
18:49:49 <PoppaVic> gforth is handy - I always install it with mc, joe, etc - but it's a nightmare for fullblown programming.. No books/docs other than an info file. I'd use C for anything serious.
18:50:07 <tabemann> well, not that many, but > 1
18:50:35 <reepca> PoppaVic: In fairness, it's a pretty big info file.
18:50:53 <reepca> especially if you've got the development version
18:51:05 <PoppaVic> true, but the make and gcc files are even more prolific ;-P
18:51:44 <rdrop-exit> I've never used gForth, I've perused the manual
18:52:12 <tabemann> I used to use gforth a very long time ago, when I was in high school
18:52:39 <tabemann> that was like 17 years ago
18:52:41 <rdrop-exit> It's not very Forth-like
18:53:04 <PoppaVic> well, I think PFE is another nice forth, but I can't remember offhand the hack I had to make to the Makefile to get the damned thing to build. I did contact the author and tell him, but it's never been "fixed"
18:53:34 <rdrop-exit> It's just another desktop scripting language
18:54:29 <PoppaVic> rdrop-exit: I like to plop into gforth for real quick "what if" and RPN diddling, but yeah - it's not something I'd write a serious app in
18:54:55 <tabemann> I get that your idea of what is Forth-like is like something requires < 64K RAM and runs on bare metal
18:55:30 <PoppaVic> no forth around should require 64K
18:55:33 <rdrop-exit> Tabemann, not necessarily, no.
18:56:04 <PoppaVic> (unless yer using ginormous cell-sizes)
18:56:20 <tabemann> I'm using ginormous cell sizes :D
18:56:48 <tabemann> 64K doesn't go far when your cells are 64-bit
18:57:03 <rdrop-exit> One of my Forths is 64-bit and written in C for POSIX.
18:57:59 <rdrop-exit> gForth makes simple things convoluted. If you can't keep the simple things simple, it's not a good example of Forth practice.
18:59:16 <tabemann> what's your opinion of ficl?
18:59:57 <PoppaVic> ficl always looked useful for someone. I never did get to trying it
19:00:03 <verisimilitude> Gforth does to Forth what Gnu does to UNIX and C in general, except Forth programmers aren't hypocritical to point it out.
19:00:18 <rdrop-exit> I only did a quick persusal of ficl ages ago, can't recall.
19:00:56 <PoppaVic> verisimilitude: yeah, I think the only reason it still is a "package" is the G prefix. It was just an experimental and abandoned project
19:01:08 <tabemann> ficl seemed nice when I looked at in high school for a scripting language if you're coding in C
19:01:16 <verisimilitude> Well, there's not much to add, although it still receives updates.
19:01:55 <PoppaVic> They don't need to "add" they need to "subtract"
19:02:00 <rdrop-exit> I think ANS and gForth give a very misleading idea of Forth.
19:02:05 <verisimilitude> I meant more or less how GNU software is ``bloated'' but, unlike C and UNIX, normal Forth software is actually compact and well-written, so there's a point to critiquing it beyond just not liking GNU.
19:03:43 <tabemann> the impression I got from reading the gforth docs is that they took ANS and made it even bigger
19:04:15 <tabemann> like for each page full of word docs half of them would be gforth extensions above and beyond ANS
19:04:29 <rdrop-exit> Forth's traditional strengths have taken a back seat.
19:04:30 <verisimilitude> Gforth, like Emacs, includes a Tetris game.
19:04:45 <tabemann> does it contain a psychologist?
19:05:06 <verisimilitude> If it does, I didn't find it.
19:08:33 <tabemann> it's weird that by today's standards GNU Emacs is a small text editor
19:08:48 <phadthai> heh
19:08:53 <tabemann> compared to the likes of Eclipse, NetBeans, IntelliJ, etc
19:09:11 <PoppaVic> it isn't called Jaba for nuttin'
19:10:05 <tabemann> what I've heard is that back in the day GNU Emacs was criticized for taking eight megabytes and constantly swapping... and it still takes up eight megabytes
19:10:25 <tabemann> whereas now eight megabytes is a drop in the bucket
19:10:35 <PoppaVic> <shrug> It's an editor that thinks it's an OS - pass
19:10:57 <tabemann> emacs is my operating system and linux is my device driver
19:10:57 <rdrop-exit> pass as well
19:12:01 <verisimilitude> I use Gforth from Emacs.
19:12:26 <verisimilitude> I use Emacs itself or controlling other programs for most things, actually.
19:12:36 <verisimilitude> ERC is the IRC client I'm using here.
19:12:46 <tabemann> I mostly just use emacs for editing text
19:13:04 <PoppaVic> I use emacs to waste a chunk of drivespace
19:13:17 <tabemann> I don't like the ergonomics of vi, and I hate eclipse, netbeans, and intellij
19:13:35 <PoppaVic> (I tried it as a doorstop, but the door kept bashing me in the head)
19:14:10 <phadthai> I use emacs with slime for lisp, but otherwise tend to use vim
19:14:40 <phadthai> (and other than for shell scripts or configs, prefer vim over os-native vi)
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19:16:24 <phadthai> and no need for full environments if knowing how to write makefiles
19:16:42 <tabemann> I've come to pick up vi, though, from editing files at work when I don't want to open them up in netbeans or visual studio code (the two text editors most of us use)
19:17:09 <tabemann> I should just install emacs on my windows box at work
19:17:24 <tabemann> but I've found emacs on windows to not be completely stable
19:17:36 <tabemann> so I might have to go with cygwin
19:17:40 <phadthai> hmm not using windows... but if I did I'd consider cygwin
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19:19:08 <tabemann> I don't know why I haven't installed cygwin at this job
19:19:38 <tabemann> maybe because cmder provides many of the things I'd otherwise use cygwin for, git comes with vi too
19:19:57 <phadthai> it's a bit of a painful install process, to select all wanted dependencies
19:20:03 <tabemann> yeah
19:42:42 <rdrop-exit> 0 shadow  Arithmetic - Miscellanea
19:42:42 <rdrop-exit> 1
19:42:48 <rdrop-exit> ...
19:43:14 <rdrop-exit> b
19:43:15 <rdrop-exit> c sgn   Integer signum function.
19:43:15 <rdrop-exit> d
19:43:16 <rdrop-exit> ...
19:43:26 <rdrop-exit> 0 source  Arithmetic - Miscellanea
19:43:26 <rdrop-exit> 1
19:43:28 <rdrop-exit> ...
19:43:37 <rdrop-exit> b
19:43:38 <rdrop-exit> c : sgn ( n -- -1|0|1 ) dup 0<  swap 0> - ;inline
19:43:38 <rdrop-exit> d
19:43:59 <PoppaVic> time for some pepto, eh?
19:44:40 <rdrop-exit> PoppaVic: I don't get it
19:45:48 <PoppaVic> It looked like paste-diarrhea
19:46:00 <rdrop-exit> ick
19:46:21 <rdrop-exit> Just a random snippet for the heck of it
19:46:40 <rdrop-exit> To break the ice
20:00:09 * tabemann just tried that snippet under attoforth
20:00:22 <rdrop-exit> Did it work?
20:00:45 <tabemann> yes
20:00:51 <rdrop-exit> Cool!
20:01:16 <tabemann> except no ;inline, because currently attoforth doesn't support inlining
20:02:05 <rdrop-exit> My ;inline is non-standard, IIRC ANS doesn't have an inlining word.
20:02:56 <rdrop-exit> Here's one that would require adaptation to your particular Forth:
20:03:04 <rdrop-exit> 0 shadow  Arithmetic - Miscellanea
20:03:05 <rdrop-exit> 1
20:03:08 <rdrop-exit> ...
20:03:16 <rdrop-exit> 6 abs   Positive absolute value.
20:03:16 <rdrop-exit> 7
20:03:16 <rdrop-exit> 8 abso  Positive absolute value, raise |xovf| on overflow.
20:03:16 <rdrop-exit> 9
20:03:21 <rdrop-exit> ...
20:03:22 <tabemann> I didn't put it in because it'd be too complex to implement combined with having too little benefit, since attoforth function calls are already fast enough
20:03:31 <rdrop-exit> 0 source  Arithmetic - Miscellanea
20:03:32 <rdrop-exit> 1
20:03:35 <rdrop-exit> ...
20:03:50 <rdrop-exit> 6 : abs ( n -- +n|mnn ) nabs negate ;inline
20:03:50 <rdrop-exit> 7
20:03:50 <rdrop-exit> 8 : abso ( n -- +n ) abs  0> averts xovf ;
20:03:50 <rdrop-exit> 9
20:04:11 <rdrop-exit> oops correction
20:04:31 <rdrop-exit> no correction, I thought I had made a mistake
20:04:42 <rdrop-exit> all's good
20:04:55 <tabemann> okay, I have to go - the coffee shop is closing - I will be on again shortly
20:05:18 <rdrop-exit> Me too, have to walk the dogs, chat again soon
20:06:06 <rdrop-exit> 8 : abso ( n -- +n ) abs  0>= averts xovf ;
20:06:27 <rdrop-exit> It did need a correction
20:06:32 <rdrop-exit> after all
20:06:51 <rdrop-exit> I should have tested before posting
20:07:20 <rdrop-exit> Ciao
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20:41:21 <rdrop-exit> I'm an idiot
20:41:35 <rdrop-exit> : abso ( n -- +n ) abs  dup 0>= averts xovf ;
20:42:08 <rdrop-exit> Without optimization, this would be faster:
20:42:24 <rdrop-exit>  : abso ( n -- +n ) abs  dup 0>= ?;  raise xovf ;
20:42:48 <PoppaVic> if you say so
20:45:17 <rdrop-exit> The dangers of coding without my intravenous coffee drip hooked up
20:46:08 <PoppaVic> Thsoe years are quite far behind... I used to require at least 3 or 4 pots of coffee a day
20:46:48 <rdrop-exit> I drink about 7 or 8 double espressos a day
20:48:30 <PoppaVic> I did a mug of espresso - once... decades ago.. Too hard on the heart.
20:48:49 <rdrop-exit> My cardiologist wants me to cut down
20:50:06 <PoppaVic> Nowadays, I manage to get going on a cuppa tea or instant <shrug> Maybe a cocoa or another coffee at work - but that's rare.. Usually when I'm freezing.
20:54:34 <rdrop-exit> When I was a teenager I worked summers in cafés on the French riviera, got hooked on the stuff.
20:55:30 <rdrop-exit> Gotta run, chat again soon
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