00:00:00 --- log: started forth/18.11.16
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01:00:39 <siraben> Zarutian: you know lojban?
01:00:39 <siraben> coi
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01:17:42 <rdrop-exit> Hello Forthwrights :)
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04:45:44 <siraben> http://www.ulisp.com/show?2DT6
04:45:52 <siraben> Wonder how this might be done in Forth.
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04:59:06 <john_cephalopoda> pointfree: You should comment your code. I am reading your sixel code and I got no clue how it is supposed to be used.
05:22:32 <Zarutian> john_cephalopoda: tough titties ;-Þ
05:23:23 <Zarutian> siraben: just a bit, havent been as diligent learning it as I should
05:23:47 <john_cephalopoda> I got 69 ttys in /dev
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05:52:45 <WilhelmVonWeiner> john_cephalopoda: you just visually follow the definitions with your eyes. Like reading a book, but every word has a footnote describing that word
05:53:00 <WilhelmVonWeiner> and maybe the footnote is full of footfootnotes.
05:53:17 <WilhelmVonWeiner> ad-infinitum (or at least until you hit primitives).
05:54:44 <WilhelmVonWeiner> siraben: PunyForth on the ESP8266 could do that. 
05:57:30 <john_cephalopoda> WilhelmVonWeiner: The code is just hard to follow.
05:57:34 <john_cephalopoda> : setup [char] 0 out [char] ; out [char] 1 out [char] ; out [char] 0 out [char] ; out ;
05:58:29 <john_cephalopoda> What does that do?
05:58:40 <john_cephalopoda> Apparently out is a synonym for "EMIT".
05:58:55 <john_cephalopoda> Why are there so many semicolons?
05:59:03 <john_cephalopoda> What does this set up?
05:59:16 <john_cephalopoda> What is the stack before and after?
05:59:49 <john_cephalopoda> Ah, the ; are [char]'d.
06:00:25 <john_cephalopoda> So it writes 0;1;0; - basically ." 0;1;0;" but very complex.
06:00:28 <john_cephalopoda> ( -- )
06:02:18 <WilhelmVonWeiner> it compiles 0;1;0; into the definition.
06:02:40 <WilhelmVonWeiner> kinda
06:02:46 <john_cephalopoda> Why isn't it : setup ." 0;1;0;" ?
06:04:49 <WilhelmVonWeiner> where's the source you're looking at, not sure what "out" is
06:04:59 <john_cephalopoda> https://hub.darcs.net/pointfree/forth-sixel/browse/sixel.4th
06:05:50 <john_cephalopoda> Oh, I believe it was done in order to be able to use it with serial consoles.
06:07:54 <john_cephalopoda> Re-defining emit if necessary would be better imo though.
06:07:58 <john_cephalopoda> bbiab
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06:08:39 <pointfree> https://hub.darcs.net/pointfree/forth-sixel-paint/browse/paint.4th
06:08:41 <WilhelmVonWeiner> pointfree: did you `deter out ' emit is out` to save typing "emit" multiple times?
06:09:08 <pointfree> https://hub.darcs.net/pointfree/forth-sixel is old code.
06:09:28 <pointfree> The correct repo is forth-sixel-paint
06:10:48 <WilhelmVonWeiner> are you refusing to confirm or deny anything
06:12:25 <pointfree> WilhelmVonWeiner: I deferred the word that because I wanted to capture sixels with C, or output with EMIT to display.
06:14:28 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Using acme to edit Forth code by the way - seems to be juuuust fine
06:18:37 <WilhelmVonWeiner> Is there a way to disable that damned copyright header in gforth
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06:22:04 <KipIngram> Morning gents.
06:22:41 <Zarutian> pointfree: hub.darcs.net says that the repo is private or not found
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06:23:51 <Zarutian> (for https://hub.darcs.net/pointfree/forth-sixel-paint/browse/paint.4th )
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06:25:20 <pointfree> Zarutian: I reorganized the repos to avoid confusion from the inbound links. Correct repo is now https://hub.darcs.net/pointfree/forth-sixel again.
06:25:47 <pointfree> old repo is now https://hub.darcs.net/pointfree/forth-sixel.old
06:25:51 <john_cephalopoda> Oh, hi pointfree 
06:26:09 <pointfree> hi john_cephalopoda :)
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06:28:43 <Zarutian> pointfree: well it prompted me to look at the list of your repos at that host. And Recurrent neural network in forth?
06:30:01 <john_cephalopoda> pointfree: The code is now way more readable, thanks.
06:34:47 <pointfree> :)
06:35:04 <john_cephalopoda> Imo an API with the commands "FB_PAGE ( -- )", "FB_PLOT ( set? X Y -- )" and "FB_DRAW ( -- )" would be a good way to expose the sixel functionality to the user.
06:36:02 <john_cephalopoda> FB_PAGE would clear the framebuffer, FB_PLOT would set the pixel at X, Y to 1 or 0, depending on set? and FB_DRAW would draw the framebuffer to the screen.
06:39:59 <pointfree> agreed
06:40:47 <john_cephalopoda> Well, the question of how to handle color output isn't clear with that yet, but there is probably a clever solution.
06:40:54 <pointfree> Maybe `im,` could be replaced with allot and page.
06:42:33 <pointfree> `plot` and `draw` could take a counted string as a parameter to avoid hyphenated word names.
06:43:44 <pointfree> `compress` could optionally be inserted between fb and draw for display over uart.
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06:53:35 <pointfree> With colors we want to link all pixels of the same color in a band of sixels. Output that line of sixels, then return the the beginning of the line to output all pixels of the next color. I think this calls for a linked list of pixels of each color.
06:53:40 <pointfree> I'm thinking a dictionary-based approach could work. I would use a different (leaner) word header with a different LATEST pointer but the same dictionary pointer.
06:53:42 <pointfree> That way normal word definitions could be interleaved with and share the same dictionary space as color definitions.
07:17:48 <KipIngram> Do any of you have a good link that's "introductory" for this "sixel" stuff?  It sounds interesting.
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07:21:06 <pointfree> KipIngram: https://www.digiater.nl/openvms/decus/vax90b1/krypton-nasa/all-about-sixels.text
07:21:58 <KipIngram> Thanks.
07:22:07 <pointfree> Also saitoha's github page: https://github.com/saitoha/
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08:28:54 <john_cephalopoda> pointfree: Hmm, maybe an abstract drawing API with extensions would be useful.
08:29:55 <john_cephalopoda> So you can draw b/w, greyscale and color and the API handles things, so it ends up looking alright.
09:02:50 <pointfree> With on-line, unbuffered, compressed sixel scribble http://ix.io/1s7l colors would be easy.
09:05:54 <pointfree> john_cephalopoda: http://iquilezles.org/www/articles/distfunctions/distfunctions.htm http://iquilezles.org/www/articles/distfunctions2d/distfunctions2d.htm https://github.com/flagxor/sdf could be good for that.
09:42:58 <phadthai> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-Xt1ShKW3c
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09:47:14 <john_cephalopoda> pointfree: My point is, that it would be really useful to have a defined API that can be used to draw on the screen in forth, without having to care about if it's sixel or openGL or Vulkan or whatever backend one wants.
09:47:45 <john_cephalopoda> Althought that might be too complex.
09:48:34 <john_cephalopoda> But for sixels, I'd at least like to have commands to set or unset any bit in the sixel grid, addressing it with X and Y pixel coordinates.
09:50:26 <john_cephalopoda> As soon as this is set up, rendering to the fb with ray marching or anything will be relatively simple.
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10:46:17 <warriors> so which is the most actively developed forth, is it gforth? 
10:55:28 <WilhelmVonWeiner> probably
10:55:39 <WilhelmVonWeiner> if you're new to Forth I would also recommend Lina Forth
10:55:52 <WilhelmVonWeiner> it comes with a boatload of documentation and the wordlist isn't overwhelming
10:56:25 <WilhelmVonWeiner> it also implementents the whole CORE standard word list
11:30:25 <warriors> thanks for the tip
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13:55:07 <dave0> hi
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15:16:22 <WilhelmVonWeiner> hey dave0 
15:16:29 <WilhelmVonWeiner> warriors: any questions just ask
15:16:41 <dave0> hi WilhelmVonWeiner 
15:17:22 <WilhelmVonWeiner> what you up to this fine eve
15:19:46 <dave0> trying to compile allegro on netbsd, not having much luck
15:21:35 <WilhelmVonWeiner> working on some game?
15:24:38 <dave0> yep, early days, but i have code for SDL and allegro
15:24:46 <WilhelmVonWeiner> in Forth?
15:25:06 <dave0> no :-( written in C
15:25:18 <WilhelmVonWeiner> I was gonna start working on an SDL game
15:25:21 <dave0> it's from before forth
15:25:24 <WilhelmVonWeiner> (in C)
15:25:28 <dave0> befoore i discovered forth
15:25:58 <dave0> sdl isn't too complicated
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15:27:08 <WilhelmVonWeiner> too many langs on my plate atm
15:27:18 <dave0> so little time
16:01:22 <john_cephalopoda> Games in Forth work quite well.
16:01:30 <john_cephalopoda> Either CLI or Sixel graphics.
16:02:24 <WilhelmVonWeiner> You can write OpenGL games in Forth
16:05:23 <john_cephalopoda> With the right bindings.
16:05:36 <john_cephalopoda> CLI and Sixel should be doable with CORE though.
16:05:55 <WilhelmVonWeiner> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/lvas/stack-abgaben/07w/glforth/
16:06:05 <john_cephalopoda> Text adventures, Wumpus and Nethack are easily doable.
16:06:44 <WilhelmVonWeiner> wumpus and nethack already exist tho
16:07:23 <john_cephalopoda> Text adventures exist, too.
16:12:25 <john_cephalopoda> And there are many more games that work well in text/sixel mode.
16:15:28 <john_cephalopoda> Night
16:15:32 <WilhelmVonWeiner> peace
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16:16:34 <dave0> what's sixel?
16:19:05 <dave0> ah wikipedia knows
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19:47:17 <KipIngram> dave0: The guys sent me this link this morning about sixels:
19:47:21 <KipIngram> https://www.digiater.nl/openvms/decus/vax90b1/krypton-nasa/all-about-sixels.text
19:47:32 <KipIngram> Pretty straightforward.
19:48:11 <dave0> hi KipIngram 
19:48:17 <dave0> cool!
19:48:46 <KipIngram> Hi.
19:48:59 <KipIngram> Yeah, I think it seems like an interesting thing to have support for.
19:49:56 <dave0> i am trying to connect my laptops with ethernet, it's annoying
19:59:04 <KipIngram> You mean you're trying to do a direct connection?
19:59:13 <KipIngram> As opposed to putting them both on the same local network?
19:59:35 <KipIngram> Putting them both on a common network should be straightforward.
19:59:47 <KipIngram> But I imagine some settings have to be changed to plug them straight to each other.
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